I get the point about first picking, but there is definitely a case to be made for "your cube is less powerful if you don't run Treasure Cruise". But yeah, 3 is fine.
I feel like Amnesia could be a 1. its a very unique effect and honestly while a bit over costed i ran it and it was a powerhouse when resolved but i also did have a mono blue ramp section which helped it be dropped on turn 3 or 4. again not overly fantastic but it fills a niche of mono blue control cards.
Yea, I don't think a sorcery speed Ancestral Recall is worth a 4 either.
OK, so when that card actually exists, we can give it a 4.
Meanwhile, we're discussing something much closer to Concentrate, so...
Concentrate has UU as well, so probably not the best comparison.
How much do people usually pay for Treasure Cruise in your games leadfeather? In my experience it's usually 3 or 4, if you want to pay less you have to put in some effort.
I would never cast treasure cruise for 4. I'm fine to cast it for 3, but would rather hold out another turn to cast it for less.
Typically I cast it for 1 or 2 and probably more frequently for 2. But I've cast it for 1 as well.
By turn, 7 or 8, i don't think it's too much work to get 2-3 creatures, 2-3 spells in the yard and maybe a loot once to result in a 1 or 2 costing treasure cruise. At worst, cmc 4. And if it is too much work, then cast it for 4, or wait another couple turns.
I'm not trying to cast it on turn 5 or 6 for a slightly easier costing concentrate.
Seven is too much for Lay Claim. Maybe it's worth a 1, but you're basically expecting to cycle this unless you topdeck it very late.
Overwhelming Intellect - I'd rather pay half that and scry. If you're heavy control you want an actual draw spell so you can have cards when you need them.
I wouldn't balk at Treasure Cruise at 4, but high 3 is probably the average case. It's not that hard to get a discount of 4 or 5 even if you're not looting a lot/milling yourself.
Scour the Laboratory should probably be a 1.
What's the use case for Scour the Laboratory? It's good if you have delirium, but doesn't seem significantly better than the more consistent alternatives, as I don't expect delirium to be on consistently enough. I'm not convinced, but if you have a cube setting that would make you lean more in that direction, I'll give it a 1.
Treasure Cruise at 3, and I'll give Amnesia a 1 as well.
Moving on to greens beef.
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good. 3 - Strong - These are solid cards that get the job done. Their exclusion is probably an indicator that you are actively not supporting a popular deck / archetype / effect. 2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds). 1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect. No reason to cube - There isn't a reason to cube these over options. You might find some perfectly 'playable' cards here, but there is little reason to put them into your cube in the first place unless you are intentionally depowering an effect.
Ancient Silverback - 1 Description - Tt really only gets trumped by 7 toughness blockers, other indestructible / regen creatures, or repeat token creators. That said, it doesn't really stand out. Anchors - Supports -
Brood Monitor - 1 Description - The 4 bodies can make it appealing, though you probably want enough ways in your cube to take advantage of that. Generic green decks will prefer beefier creatures at this cost, but this does provide synergy for team pump, sacrifice or flicker archetypes. Anchors - Supports - Bounce, Sacrifice
Deadwood Treefolk - 2 Description - It is a decent recursion creature, with the 6 toughness making it a decent blocker, and replacing itself when it dies. Worth noting that it triggers on leaving the battlefield, so works with self-bounce as well. It supports grindier decks, and can be paired nicely with Eternal Witness and similar creatures. Anchors - Supports - Graveyard Recursion, Bounce / Flicker
Gravetiller Wurm - 1 Description - An 8/8 trampler for 6 mana is very good, you just need a cube with enough support for it to be consistent. Creatures trade in combat often enough, but it gets better with Eldrazi tokens that can be sacrificed (while accelerating into it) or other sacrifice outlets. As a result it isn't in the 'top tier' of big green beaters, but may be an option for specific cubes. Anchors - Supports - Sacrifice, +1/+1 counters
Great Oak Guardian - 3 Description - It plays out as a 6 mana combat trick which would normally be a big no, but it's one hell of a combat trick. On the attack, it can just push through the extra damage for the win, or destroy their board after blocks (while leaving them untapped to block survivors). On defense you can surprise with the untap, use this as a blocker if played before blocks, and often enough buff your team to destroy the incoming attackers. It's never dead, as it can always be at least a 6/7 blocker the turn you play it if you are desperate. Anchors - Supports -
Hooting Mandrills - 2 Description - With a couple of mana discount this is fine. It's also in the colour of Commune With the Gods and similar effects, so it isn't unreasonable to cast this on turn 3 sometimes. You probably wouldn't cube it without at least a few ways to filter cards into your graveyard, but that is commonplace for most cubes. Anchors - Supports -
Howlgeist - 1 Description - For 6 mana, you can get creatures that are bigger from the outset. However, it can be hard to get a blocker in the way, and even if they have one the first time around, they might not have a second 5+ power creature that can block it after it comes back. Dependant on the board state though. Anchors - Supports -
Krosan Tusker - 2 Description - It cycles significantly more than being cast and is a fine green fixer, essentially a draw 2 with one of those draws fixing your colours as needed or finding lands for ramp decks. The hard cast is underwhelming compared to many other options, but is very secondary. Reanimation or graveyard recursion decks might find some extra uses for it. Anchors - Supports - Reanimator, Ramp
Maul Splicer - 1 Description - It gives you 7/7 worth of stats over 3 bodies, but in a vacuum there are many other green 7-drops that are better. The reason to cube it is if you want it as part of a larger Golem package. Anchors - Golem Tribal Supports -
Nacatl War-Pride - 1 Description - It takes a turn, but it essentially makes the rest of your team plus one 3/3 unblockable for a turn, and kills anything that dies to a 3/3. Not always consistent and you usually only get to do it once, but if it clears a fair bit of their board while getting in some damage with your other creatures that is great. Also has some fringe synergies if they matter in your cube by putting multiple bodies on the board (Goldnight Commander) or giving you multiple bodies to sacrifice after blocks / combat. If your opponent can just attack you while you drop your 6 mana 3/3 you aren't in a good spot though. Anchors - Supports -
Baloth Woodcrasher - If you can attack with an 8/8 trampler a couple of times, that is going to be worth 6 mana. But once you've hit 6 mana, the likelihood of hitting lands consistently for the next few turns is going to pretty low, and paying 6 mana when you only get a 4/4 is pretty bad.
Elvish Aberration - Once you've hit 6 mana, the acceleration isn't as important, it's otherwise a bad creature, and the cycling is nice but not enough to give it consideration.
What's the use case for Scour the Laboratory? It's good if you have delirium, but doesn't seem significantly better than the more consistent alternatives, as I don't expect delirium to be on consistently enough. I'm not convinced, but if you have a cube setting that would make you lean more in that direction, I'll give it a 1.
Just based on the fact that if you have a very graveyard heavy cube, this could be one of the lower-tier draw spells to include to stay "on theme".
I probably haven't cubed it for a couple of years, but Nacatl War-Pride was in my cube and I recall it being decent. It does take that stalled board to maximise value, and it doesn't stabilise you as much as a vanilla 6/6 would if you were behind. Depends on what you mean by 'opponent has to co-operate'. If it's played against you, you can play around it by attacking with stuff that you don't want to die on blocking duty, but that does increase the number of creatures that are getting through to you for damage. I'm inclined to leave it at 2 based on my experience, but I'll drop it to 1 pending any further discussion.
Doesn't Nacatl War-Pride just amount to a complex Overrun? It's based on your opponent's creatures rather than your creatures, but it fulfills basically the same purpose.
It's probably a 1 based off of how unique and powerful the effect is, even though it is probably horribly inconsistent. I will admit it looks ridiculous with a Fires of Yavimaya in play.
Yeah that's generally my line of thought. Sure it gets worse as the board develops like all sac effects do, especially considering the symmetry that's missing from other edicts, but costing 1 is real and means you can make it asymmetrical some percentage of the time to get it to that '2' level.
Jungle Weaver seems alright as a fatty that's never dead in hand and stabilizes well or a decent reanimator enabler. Too bad there's no 0.5 because I think it's just below a 1.
Yeah that's generally my line of thought. Sure it gets worse as the board develops like all sac effects do, especially considering the symmetry that's missing from other edicts, but costing 1 is real and means you can make it asymmetrical some percentage of the time to get it to that '2' level.
It's also a neat card in a sac deck. I'm not sure it adds up to 2 though, it's not a card you want to put in any deck as filler.
Yeah that's generally my line of thought. Sure it gets worse as the board develops like all sac effects do, especially considering the symmetry that's missing from other edicts, but costing 1 is real and means you can make it asymmetrical some percentage of the time to get it to that '2' level.
It's also a neat card in a sac deck. I'm not sure it adds up to 2 though, it's not a card you want to put in any deck as filler.
It's not really a 1 though, as it has real application as a great removal spell in a number of spots. Maybe I overvalue Innocent Blood, but I think it's a pretty good card that is typically not run because it's black removal. Though, if people felt strong enough about it being a 1, I could be swayed. There's no way it's anything higher or lower than 1-2.
I actually thought they were kidding when they said it was a 2. It's terrible unless it's turn 1 and your opponent has a 1 drop. Or the only creature they have is a large untargetable man. And you need to have a deck that doesn't mind it in the first place.
Otherwise, play a real edict. Or better yet, play real removal.
We gave Chainer's Edict a 1 and that one's always asymmetrical and has flashback.
Ah well, there we go. I wouldn't say it's as awful as some are saying (these comments make it out to be unplayable, it's not that from my experience) but if chainer's is a 1 then that's fair
Agreed, Barter in Blood is a thing after all. A small Barter for one mana can't be totally useless, but it's still a fringe card in Black, so 1 (=niche card) seems to me to be correct.
OK, so when that card actually exists, we can give it a 4.
Meanwhile, we're discussing something much closer to Concentrate, so...
Concentrate has UU as well, so probably not the best comparison.
How much do people usually pay for Treasure Cruise in your games leadfeather? In my experience it's usually 3 or 4, if you want to pay less you have to put in some effort.
Typically I cast it for 1 or 2 and probably more frequently for 2. But I've cast it for 1 as well.
By turn, 7 or 8, i don't think it's too much work to get 2-3 creatures, 2-3 spells in the yard and maybe a loot once to result in a 1 or 2 costing treasure cruise. At worst, cmc 4. And if it is too much work, then cast it for 4, or wait another couple turns.
I'm not trying to cast it on turn 5 or 6 for a slightly easier costing concentrate.
Moving on to greens beef.
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good.
3 - Strong - These are solid cards that get the job done. Their exclusion is probably an indicator that you are actively not supporting a popular deck / archetype / effect.
2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds).
1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect.
No reason to cube - There isn't a reason to cube these over options. You might find some perfectly 'playable' cards here, but there is little reason to put them into your cube in the first place unless you are intentionally depowering an effect.
Ancient Silverback - 1
Description - Tt really only gets trumped by 7 toughness blockers, other indestructible / regen creatures, or repeat token creators. That said, it doesn't really stand out.
Anchors -
Supports -
Brood Monitor - 1
Description - The 4 bodies can make it appealing, though you probably want enough ways in your cube to take advantage of that. Generic green decks will prefer beefier creatures at this cost, but this does provide synergy for team pump, sacrifice or flicker archetypes.
Anchors -
Supports - Bounce, Sacrifice
Deadwood Treefolk - 2
Description - It is a decent recursion creature, with the 6 toughness making it a decent blocker, and replacing itself when it dies. Worth noting that it triggers on leaving the battlefield, so works with self-bounce as well. It supports grindier decks, and can be paired nicely with Eternal Witness and similar creatures.
Anchors -
Supports - Graveyard Recursion, Bounce / Flicker
Gravetiller Wurm - 1
Description - An 8/8 trampler for 6 mana is very good, you just need a cube with enough support for it to be consistent. Creatures trade in combat often enough, but it gets better with Eldrazi tokens that can be sacrificed (while accelerating into it) or other sacrifice outlets. As a result it isn't in the 'top tier' of big green beaters, but may be an option for specific cubes.
Anchors -
Supports - Sacrifice, +1/+1 counters
Great Oak Guardian - 3
Description - It plays out as a 6 mana combat trick which would normally be a big no, but it's one hell of a combat trick. On the attack, it can just push through the extra damage for the win, or destroy their board after blocks (while leaving them untapped to block survivors). On defense you can surprise with the untap, use this as a blocker if played before blocks, and often enough buff your team to destroy the incoming attackers. It's never dead, as it can always be at least a 6/7 blocker the turn you play it if you are desperate.
Anchors -
Supports -
Hooting Mandrills - 2
Description - With a couple of mana discount this is fine. It's also in the colour of Commune With the Gods and similar effects, so it isn't unreasonable to cast this on turn 3 sometimes. You probably wouldn't cube it without at least a few ways to filter cards into your graveyard, but that is commonplace for most cubes.
Anchors -
Supports -
Howlgeist - 1
Description - For 6 mana, you can get creatures that are bigger from the outset. However, it can be hard to get a blocker in the way, and even if they have one the first time around, they might not have a second 5+ power creature that can block it after it comes back. Dependant on the board state though.
Anchors -
Supports -
Krosan Tusker - 2
Description - It cycles significantly more than being cast and is a fine green fixer, essentially a draw 2 with one of those draws fixing your colours as needed or finding lands for ramp decks. The hard cast is underwhelming compared to many other options, but is very secondary. Reanimation or graveyard recursion decks might find some extra uses for it.
Anchors -
Supports - Reanimator, Ramp
Maul Splicer - 1
Description - It gives you 7/7 worth of stats over 3 bodies, but in a vacuum there are many other green 7-drops that are better. The reason to cube it is if you want it as part of a larger Golem package.
Anchors - Golem Tribal
Supports -
Nacatl War-Pride - 1
Description - It takes a turn, but it essentially makes the rest of your team plus one 3/3 unblockable for a turn, and kills anything that dies to a 3/3. Not always consistent and you usually only get to do it once, but if it clears a fair bit of their board while getting in some damage with your other creatures that is great. Also has some fringe synergies if they matter in your cube by putting multiple bodies on the board (Goldnight Commander) or giving you multiple bodies to sacrifice after blocks / combat. If your opponent can just attack you while you drop your 6 mana 3/3 you aren't in a good spot though.
Anchors -
Supports -
Just based on the fact that if you have a very graveyard heavy cube, this could be one of the lower-tier draw spells to include to stay "on theme".
Like... the ceiling is high in the right stalled game, but it takes a turn and needs your opponent to cooperate to a pretty large degree.
I guess it's still worth a 1, but definitely a low 1.
It's probably a 1 based off of how unique and powerful the effect is, even though it is probably horribly inconsistent. I will admit it looks ridiculous with a Fires of Yavimaya in play.
Heir of Falkenrath is in the 1 cmc creature section.
Put it at 2? What do people think?
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Yeah that's generally my line of thought. Sure it gets worse as the board develops like all sac effects do, especially considering the symmetry that's missing from other edicts, but costing 1 is real and means you can make it asymmetrical some percentage of the time to get it to that '2' level.
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It's also a neat card in a sac deck. I'm not sure it adds up to 2 though, it's not a card you want to put in any deck as filler.
It's not really a 1 though, as it has real application as a great removal spell in a number of spots. Maybe I overvalue Innocent Blood, but I think it's a pretty good card that is typically not run because it's black removal. Though, if people felt strong enough about it being a 1, I could be swayed. There's no way it's anything higher or lower than 1-2.
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The cheap cost isn't enough to make up for the fact that edicts generally suck... and it punishes you absurdly hard for playing your OWN creatures
Otherwise, play a real edict. Or better yet, play real removal.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Ah well, there we go. I wouldn't say it's as awful as some are saying (these comments make it out to be unplayable, it's not that from my experience) but if chainer's is a 1 then that's fair
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