These are most of them, at least the most I can think of right now.. if anyone wants to add to this list before we get started feel free to do so. We can use the same voting method as the black 1 drop thread once we start.
Voting on burn cards, in any sense of the word (only mono red burn cards). Can be creature only or player only or either.
Assigning Points
Each round, assign +1 point to whatever you think is the strongest card, -3 to the weakest, and -2 to the second weakest.
Frequency
Once per day, OR after 5 other members have voted. If the strongest / weakest card you voted for before is still in the list, you are encouraged to vote for it again (see rule below).
Eliminating 'Winners'
If everyone is voting the same card as the strongest, there is little value in keeping it in the list. If 5 votes consecutively vote up the same card, it will be removed from the voting and put into the winners list (ranked below any others already removed). Open to discussion on this rule.
Eliminating 'Losers'
Once a card gets to 0 or less, it removed from the list. It can no longer be voted upon.
Feel free to copy the list above and add any red burn cards you think should be added that I missed and maybe we can start this in about 12 hours or so.
I agree but I think an elimination thread like this will prompt a lot of discussion about the different burn cards and how they play/how strong they are
It depends how far down the Rabbit hole you want to go. I'm working on too many things to start it, but I was thinking a good article / project would be about removal in general, as some people depower their removal / burn on purpose. Thought it might be good to document them and put them into 'tiers', using elimination threads to help organise. For that I'd probably go super deep (though I'm not sure how many people would want to rank Unholy Hunger vs. Death's Caress).
Did you have a guideline for cut-off for inclusions?
That's a massive list of cards that serve very different functions. Are you sure you don't want to do this in separate lists, like red sweepers, red x spells, or 1, 2, and 3 CMC burn spells?
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
It depends how far down the Rabbit hole you want to go. I'm working on too many things to start it, but I was thinking a good article / project would be about removal in general, as some people depower their removal / burn on purpose. Thought it might be good to document them and put them into 'tiers', using elimination threads to help organise. For that I'd probably go super deep (though I'm not sure how many people would want to rank Unholy Hunger vs. Death's Caress).
Did you have a guideline for cut-off for inclusions?
Nope, just as many as people felt were potentially playable. I feel the more the merrier. Some of course will be knocked off fast, but when we are finished I think it will give a lot of insight on how people value burn in their cube and maybe give people ideas of what to switch out for less or more powerful burn spells. Also, for 360 vs 540 vs 720 people may want to see a giant list.
That's a massive list of cards that serve very different functions. Are you sure you don't want to do this in separate lists, like red sweepers, red x spells, or 1, 2, and 3 CMC burn spells?
I personally don't want to cut it into multiple lists, but if others would prefer this that's fine. I only put this together, because I really liked the counterspell elimination. There are tons of counterspells that fill different roles for different mana costs, but in the end it lead to a lot of discussion about the cards and where they belong as far as overall power level and even archetype placement within different decks. For now, I will keep adding to this list and if more people comment they would rather this be split, we can do that.
I think it would be beneficial to split out the cards that say "each creature" and treat them separately. If you are pondering whether to run Pyroclasm or Searing Blood, that is a very different type of decision in terms of cube development to considering Pyroclasm vs. Slice and Dice.
I guess the question should be: Is it helpful to rank all the burn cardsred cards that deal damage in terms of pack1 pick1 playability, or is it more useful to rank cards that fulfill a similar roll against each other. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Pyroclasm isn't burn, it's a sweeper. If a card can't go to the face (aka, you wouldn't play it in a "burn deck"), it's not burn IMO.
If a card can't go to the face (aka, you wouldn't play it in a "burn deck"), it's not burn IMO.
So would you also separate out Pyrokinesis, Magma Spray and Flame Slash as a separate category entirely to Incinerate and Lightning Bolt just because they can't go to the face? I would group them all in one and then have the ability to target players be one of the variables we take into account when discussing different options.. IMO burn spells are primarily removal.
+1 Lightning bolt is just too good. A 1 mana instant 3 damage to face or creature is just a bomb card.
-3 to magma spray because it is 2 damage, only targeting creatures, and I don't think the exile effect is worth it compared to dividable damage to creatures/players like forked bolt or the increased damage like flame sash
-2 to pyrokinesis because I think it's just a poor choice of a card in most decks. I have never personally played with it so maybe it would be okay in a control deck, but I feel that in most decks that I want target-able burn I don't want to be pitching a red card to this and 6 mana for this effect is not worth it. Somebody freely correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are a lot better options for more reasonable mana costs/card costs i.e. arc lightning which can also go to the face
If a card can't go to the face (aka, you wouldn't play it in a "burn deck"), it's not burn IMO.
So would you also separate out Pyrokinesis, Magma Spray and Flame Slash as a separate category entirely to Incinerate and Lightning Bolt just because they can't go to the face? I would group them all in one and then have the ability to target players be one of the variables we take into account when discussing different options.. IMO burn spells are primarily removal.
Yeah, completely different. Damaged based removal doesn't equal burn.
E:
Quote from MTG Salvation Wiki »
"Burn" generally refers to a spell or ability that deals direct damage, that is, damage to a target player or creature. [1] Burn spells are most commonly used in aggro decks, and have a low mana cost
+1 to Cone of Flame because it's never a bad card to have (unless you're not in red, in which case it's meh at best). -3 to Twin Bolt for being strictly worse than Forked Bolt, which is already not most exciting card. -2 to Searing Spear for being a bad Incinerate, which is not a great place to be.
Also, Rival's Duel has been pretty sweet as a situational 2-for-1, although it doesn't fit n00b's definition of "burn", it makes as much sense on the list as Flame Slash.
[nitpick]Flame Slash is damage based removal, Rivals' Duel is a fight card based on the creature's respective power stats.[/nitpick]
+1 to lightning bolt, because d'uh
-2 to Brimstone Volley for having to do work to turn it on
-3 to Twin Bolt for being the worst of the splittable burn cards
+ Lightning bolt.
-2 Fireball - Love the card because it reminds me of when I first started, but it is so poor compared to so many different burn spells. Only really great as a finisher, but I would prefer other spells 97% of the time.
-3 Pyrokinesis - Just feel this is the worst at the moment
Wow, you all have very different opinions on burn than I do. Pyrokinesis is right up there with Lightning Bolt, Rolling Thunder and Meteor Blast in my mind, and Cone of Flame and Shower of Coals are a step above them (although I don't actually run Shower, it being a modern-frame cube). Being able to divide damage is super powerful, and even the most aggressive decks don't tend to win before turn 6. Lightning Bolt, while always playable, isn't a first-pack first-pick type card - there are always going to be cards in the pack offering more impact.
Maybe your cubes are more aggressive than mine, or maybe you have fewer small creatures? I would certainly pick Pyrokinesis over Burst Lightning or Forked Bolt, if I played either of those in my cube. It's an instant that usually 2-for-1s, and can 3+-for-2 when your opponent least expects it.
PK is indeed insane. If you're instantly downvoting it (and not the likes of Sudden Shock, Rift Bolt, Fireball, etc), you've never used it and Goblin Heelcutter (or anything with haste, really) in the same turn.
Leelue, I think some of your edits are incomplete. I'll correct the points to what I THINK they should be, and then update mine. But you might want to make sure (looks like you forgot to actually add a point to Staggershock?)
Let's just get Lighting Bolt into the Hall of Fame. I did try Sudden Shock in my first iteration cube because it at least did something different, but I found it never mattered enough to warrant paying 2 mana for 2 damage. Rift Bolt has some uses (Storm) but it either costs 3, or your opponent gets to see it coming. If it's what's in the cube you'll take it, but among the weakest of the options here.
lightning bolt
magma jet
searing blaze
searing blood
searing spear
staggershock
brimstone volley
stoke the flames
firebolt
flame slash
arc trail
pyroclasm
flames of the firebrand
arc lightning
shower of coals
slice and dice
incinerate
fireblast
meteor blast
rolling thunder
fireball
forked bolt
sulfurous blast
pyrokinesis
chain lightning
acidic soil
breath of barigaaz
rift bolt
These are most of them, at least the most I can think of right now.. if anyone wants to add to this list before we get started feel free to do so. We can use the same voting method as the black 1 drop thread once we start.
Voting on burn cards, in any sense of the word (only mono red burn cards). Can be creature only or player only or either.
Assigning Points
Each round, assign +1 point to whatever you think is the strongest card, -3 to the weakest, and -2 to the second weakest.
Frequency
Once per day, OR after 5 other members have voted. If the strongest / weakest card you voted for before is still in the list, you are encouraged to vote for it again (see rule below).
Eliminating 'Winners'
If everyone is voting the same card as the strongest, there is little value in keeping it in the list. If 5 votes consecutively vote up the same card, it will be removed from the voting and put into the winners list (ranked below any others already removed). Open to discussion on this rule.
Eliminating 'Losers'
Once a card gets to 0 or less, it removed from the list. It can no longer be voted upon.
Feel free to copy the list above and add any red burn cards you think should be added that I missed and maybe we can start this in about 12 hours or so.
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
I also removed Flames of the Firebrand since it's identical to Arc Lightning.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
My cube discussion thread
Added magma spray
Thanks for organizing Noob
Unless anyone has any other additions, I think we can start this!
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
It depends how far down the Rabbit hole you want to go. I'm working on too many things to start it, but I was thinking a good article / project would be about removal in general, as some people depower their removal / burn on purpose. Thought it might be good to document them and put them into 'tiers', using elimination threads to help organise. For that I'd probably go super deep (though I'm not sure how many people would want to rank Unholy Hunger vs. Death's Caress).
Did you have a guideline for cut-off for inclusions?
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Nope, just as many as people felt were potentially playable. I feel the more the merrier. Some of course will be knocked off fast, but when we are finished I think it will give a lot of insight on how people value burn in their cube and maybe give people ideas of what to switch out for less or more powerful burn spells. Also, for 360 vs 540 vs 720 people may want to see a giant list.
I personally don't want to cut it into multiple lists, but if others would prefer this that's fine. I only put this together, because I really liked the counterspell elimination. There are tons of counterspells that fill different roles for different mana costs, but in the end it lead to a lot of discussion about the cards and where they belong as far as overall power level and even archetype placement within different decks. For now, I will keep adding to this list and if more people comment they would rather this be split, we can do that.
Someone can start if they like, or I will in the morning after seeing other comments.
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
I think it would be beneficial to split out the cards that say "each creature" and treat them separately. If you are pondering whether to run Pyroclasm or Searing Blood, that is a very different type of decision in terms of cube development to considering Pyroclasm vs. Slice and Dice.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
burn cardsred cards that deal damage in terms of pack1 pick1 playability, or is it more useful to rank cards that fulfill a similar roll against each other. I'm leaning towards the latter.Pyroclasm isn't burn, it's a sweeper. If a card can't go to the face (aka, you wouldn't play it in a "burn deck"), it's not burn IMO.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
So would you also separate out Pyrokinesis, Magma Spray and Flame Slash as a separate category entirely to Incinerate and Lightning Bolt just because they can't go to the face? I would group them all in one and then have the ability to target players be one of the variables we take into account when discussing different options.. IMO burn spells are primarily removal.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
My picks:
+1 Lightning bolt is just too good. A 1 mana instant 3 damage to face or creature is just a bomb card.
-3 to magma spray because it is 2 damage, only targeting creatures, and I don't think the exile effect is worth it compared to dividable damage to creatures/players like forked bolt or the increased damage like flame sash
-2 to pyrokinesis because I think it's just a poor choice of a card in most decks. I have never personally played with it so maybe it would be okay in a control deck, but I feel that in most decks that I want target-able burn I don't want to be pitching a red card to this and 6 mana for this effect is not worth it. Somebody freely correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are a lot better options for more reasonable mana costs/card costs i.e. arc lightning which can also go to the face
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
Yeah, completely different. Damaged based removal doesn't equal burn.
E:
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Also, Rival's Duel has been pretty sweet as a situational 2-for-1, although it doesn't fit n00b's definition of "burn", it makes as much sense on the list as Flame Slash.
CubeTutor Link
+1 to lightning bolt, because d'uh
-2 to Brimstone Volley for having to do work to turn it on
-3 to Twin Bolt for being the worst of the splittable burn cards
also counted Subtle_Relevance's choices
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Upvoting Lightning Bolt because for it's efficiency, versatility, and elegance. They just don't print 'em like that any more.
Downvoting Magma Spray for not going to the face while doing half the damage of Flame Slash for R.
Downvoting Twin Bolt for being strictly worse than Fire // Ice.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Added Sudden Shock. Twin bolt and Magma Spray are gone. After Lightning bolt hits 18 we can hall of fame it for the sake of not the only up vote.
+ Lightning bolt.
-2 Fireball - Love the card because it reminds me of when I first started, but it is so poor compared to so many different burn spells. Only really great as a finisher, but I would prefer other spells 97% of the time.
-3 Pyrokinesis - Just feel this is the worst at the moment
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
Maybe your cubes are more aggressive than mine, or maybe you have fewer small creatures? I would certainly pick Pyrokinesis over Burst Lightning or Forked Bolt, if I played either of those in my cube. It's an instant that usually 2-for-1s, and can 3+-for-2 when your opponent least expects it.
CubeTutor Link
[/quote]
Rift bolt is poopy. Cleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarly worse than a card with actual upside or usages, like pyrokinesis
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Let's just get Lighting Bolt into the Hall of Fame. I did try Sudden Shock in my first iteration cube because it at least did something different, but I found it never mattered enough to warrant paying 2 mana for 2 damage. Rift Bolt has some uses (Storm) but it either costs 3, or your opponent gets to see it coming. If it's what's in the cube you'll take it, but among the weakest of the options here.