This thread was very helpful for me. As I'm only just starting with Peasant cubing, I learned a lot about some of my biases about countermagic from rare cubing that may cause problems in Peasant. It looks like creature-only counterspells go up in value enough to be playable, and splashability often trumps costing a full mana less in the Peasant world. I was also really surprised by the rapid demise of the only splashable 2-mana hard counter ever printed, a card which I'm used to thinking of as a stone cold staple, but I may now end up excluding from my list.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I don't see the benefits anywhere of Arcane Denial at all.
The argument of "turning their super awesome card into a Divination." doesn't mesh with me. If you're countering something huge, then you're likely in the late game where Counterspelling it would not be difficult.
The argument of "turning their critical early card into a Divination." also doesn't mesh with me. If it's early game, just get a Mana Leak out there, since they're likely tapping (or almost) tapping out for it.
I have yet to see any compelling argument that budges me anywhere with that card in a cubing format.
There are fallacious assertions in there, leadfeather.
1) "Something huge" doesn't necessarily mean a curve topper. It could, but there are plenty of cards that cost 3 or 4 mana that you pretty much don't want to see resolved. I listed what may be over a dozen a few pages ago. And there are 2 drops like the shrines. Or more conditional cards like trygon predator and acidic slime.
2) Nobody is suggesting splashing for a counterspell. Where you got that idea I have no idea. (To be fair, in most decks I don't advocate for splashing at all. Even for shriekmaw)
But I can safely assume you don't think playing 8 blue sources is splashing. Yet only 8 sources, you don't get to see 2 islands 75% of the time or better until at least turn 7. Maybe later. I don't know what turn it is exactly because wtwlf's article on the subject doesn't even go to turn 7 because of how deep that is. I probably want the game just about wrapped up by turn 7 in any of my blue decks that are attacking (conveniently the turn after errant ephemeron etb off turn 2 suspend) and I definitely need my spells to be online against decks that want me dead by turn 7 if I'm the one backpedaling.
3) We all agree that mana leak is better than arcane denial in most game situations. You also have framed your argument in such a way that seems to handwave the fact that people don't just get to choose what's in their grip. I'd love a mana leak every time just as often as I'd wish every burn spell was Staggershock, but we play with second and third choices. I don't know what to tell you if you're going to reduce the argument to "play the card that's best in the situation you're in".
4) But vs counterspell, there are arguments to be made for drafting arcane denial over it. It is better than counterspell on average in some decks for literally the entire game, aka decks without a heavy blue mana base. And not even just because I may want to spend one of my blue mana on some kind of board development, although that is also something that happens.
It's the only card in existence that counters any spell for 1U. Going down a card in the card advantage battle is well worth it for the most security possible (this side of Force of will).
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@ Spike rogue
The format is far more combat heavy than, say, the vintage magic online cube was but not so much that I consider playing a creature-only counter at under 400. Of the counterspells I'm not running, I'd consider miscalculation and complicate over essence scatter or the draw-a-card exclude.
I don't see the benefits anywhere of Arcane Denial at all.
(emphasis mine)
Apologies for continuing to discuss my rare cube, but it's one place I'm qualified to say I've definitely seen the benefits of running Arcane Denial over other options.
I'd never dream of cutting Counterspell or Mana Leak for Arcane Denial, but if you're following singleton you have to start moving further down the list of what's available in the history of the game if you want to have enough countermagic to make control and tempo decks viable. Arcane Denial certainly isn't the best counter for every situation. You cast it when it's worth putting yourself down a card because you're stopping a spell that will end the game for you immediately or prevent you from winning. I assume these situations occur in any kind of cube game, but they may be more common in rare cube games. Since Arcane Denial is the only splashable unconditional hard counter for 2 mana, which gives it advantages over every other counterspell that was eliminated before it on the list - even if the -1 card advantage means it's not better for many decks and many situations. IMHO, there are enough times that you just need something countered or the game is just over that the card disadvantage is a price worth paying (Upheaval with mana floating, Kiki-Jiki or Splinter Twin with a Pestermite in play, or even just that last burn spell that brings you to 0), and in rare cubes there are enough spells that are absolutely game breaking that you don't want to have to worry about them the next turn (Jitte, Swords, planeswalkers) that I absolutely draft Arcane Denial over Remand or Memory Lapse. There are also enough must-answer non-creature threats in rare cubes that it would never even occur to me to cut Arcane Denial for something like Remove Soul or Exclude, and Negate is still too narrow.
Also, when I say I like Arcane Denial because it's "splashable", this doesn't mean I tend to put it in decks as the only blue card, just that it's easier to run it in decks with relatively few blue sources or spells. The same is true of Mana Leak or Remand.
It sounds like the differences between Peasant and rare cubing environments might make some C/U cards I'm used to thinking of as staples less valuable, though. I'm curious if there are any other C/U cards that might be better in rare cubes than they are in Peasant cubes.
In the peasant cube mother thread, I used to maintain a list of cards that I thought didn't transfer well between the two formats. Brainstorm and sensei's divining top are the two I remember.
The list should still be there, but the opinions are outdated almost certainly
Cool, thanks! I plan to try Arcane Denial in the Peasant cube I'm working on (not the Korean one in my sig). I checked the Cubetutor average lists, and Arcane Denial doesn't show up in any of the rare-inclusive or Peasant averages, even going up to 720. Looks like it's even less popular than I thought.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
For reference Spike, in the first post in the peasant cube thread is a big list of stuff to be read. I have been using it in that way to give new people a primer for a while now.
Come to think of it compiling an average list from the CU/be regulars on here would probably be a good project/resource once spoiler season and post-Oath testing etc. is over.
Isn't a large part of the appeal of Arcane Denial the fact that you also get to draw a card? It's a lot better than a 2-mana Vex since if you cast the counterspell on their turn, you get to untap first, draw an extra card, and keep progressing your board (ideally to the point of winning the game before the opponent can actually spend both of the cards they just drew)
Saying Arcane Denial turns their spell into a Divination is poor because you also draw a card. If you assume equal card quality you're turning their spell into a cantrip. Which they somewhat probably paid more than a Divination for. Arcane Denial is strong tempo, IMO.
Come to think of it compiling an average list from the CU/be regulars on here would probably be a good project/resource once spoiler season and post-Oath testing etc. is over.
I wonder how easy/difficult this would be?
I'm not sure it would be valuable because people support different archetypes or have deliberate restrictions. Leelue supports blue aggro pretty hard, for example, and an aggregate list might drive people away from interesting archetypes like that just because most people aren't using them. It teaches people to equate underused with inherently worse, which isn't true and stifles creativity.
Well of course it costs "a card", it's a spell that you have to cast.
Utopia Vow costs "a card" for potential tempo/board advantage (turn a relevant creature into Manalith). It doesn't cantrip. This does. It's very relevant.
Come to think of it compiling an average list from the CU/be regulars on here would probably be a good project/resource once spoiler season and post-Oath testing etc. is over.
I wonder how easy/difficult this would be?
I'm not sure it would be valuable because people support different archetypes or have deliberate restrictions. Leelue supports blue aggro pretty hard, for example, and an aggregate list might drive people away from interesting archetypes like that just because most people aren't using them. It teaches people to equate underused with inherently worse, which isn't true and stifles creativity.
True it won't show a lot of peoples cards that are specific for archetypes, but the point of an average list is not to find cards that are for very specific archetypes, its to find what most people to consider good/solid cards that should be included even outside of those archetypes. I think the advantage of looking at the average cube from the people that post here regularly is you find an average peasant cube that is more likely to be up to date with respect to the newest mtg sets and an average of cubes that have probably been played/tested 10s to 100s of times and are very refined.
Phitt, if you don't understand how the tempo gain of arcane denial isn't good, then I don't know what to tell you.
I play snap, an unsummon variant, and the tempo gain from that can bury someone. Rushing river is an 0-for-2 and it's in my top 20-25 blue cards.
"Card advantage" is the most overrated metric in magic, especially when it comes at the cost of
A) not affecting the board when you're in the part of the game where you need to affect the board
And B) possibly your whole turn.
Also, like io said, you get to use your one extra card before they get to use their two extra cards. Pressing this advantage wins the game even more.
But like I said, maybe I come from a place where tempo is much more important than you do. I attack a lot in my blue decks, historically.
The traditional cube people rehashed their thread on arcane denial recently, by the way. You could go through that to see more points (search their card discussion forum for arcane denial) and just replace bombs like Armageddon and show and tell with cloudgoat ranger and shower of coals.
It's funny. I used to argue with Calibretto about arcane denial o believe. But I was on the other side.
It's also funny to see how people can't praise a card like Remand enough because it cantrips (which is super awesome) and because it's absolutely not important that it's not a hard counter. And now Arcane Denial is awesome because it totally doesn't matter that your opponent gets a free cantrip and because it is a hard counter (which is super important)?
This is just plain wrong. First of all, both Remand and Arcane Denial cantrip which means that this cannot be held over Arcane Denial. If people were happy about the cantrip in the first case, they are also happy about it here. Secondly, the opponent is not cantripping since they are not getting to draw in addition to the effect they wanted. They are drawing cards instead of getting that effect. It is more akin to cycling, although they do of course get 2 cards in the end.
Really, in all simplicity: drawing cards is the cheapest type of card advantage since so many of their draws are likely to be lands which are often dead cards. Only tokens are on average worth less in terms of the nature of advantage. For example, killing two creatures is great because those were live cards which are now gone. A vast number of spells in Peasant would result in card advantage in any case, often more or in more relevant forms that cards in hand. This is not even taking into account the situations where a hard counter simply saves the day regardless of its consequences (which happen by slow-tripping, which is often relevant because the opponent is denied access to those resources on the same turn).
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
The argument of "turning their super awesome card into a Divination." doesn't mesh with me. If you're countering something huge, then you're likely in the late game where Counterspelling it would not be difficult.
The argument of "turning their critical early card into a Divination." also doesn't mesh with me. If it's early game, just get a Mana Leak out there, since they're likely tapping (or almost) tapping out for it.
I have yet to see any compelling argument that budges me anywhere with that card in a cubing format.
Early game? Mana Leak >>>> Arcane Denial.
Mid game? Mana Leak >>>> Arcane Denial.
Late game? Counterspell >>>> Arcane Denial.
I don't see any reason to splash for a single counterspell. Splash black for Shriekmaw is totally legit.
1) "Something huge" doesn't necessarily mean a curve topper. It could, but there are plenty of cards that cost 3 or 4 mana that you pretty much don't want to see resolved. I listed what may be over a dozen a few pages ago. And there are 2 drops like the shrines. Or more conditional cards like trygon predator and acidic slime.
2) Nobody is suggesting splashing for a counterspell. Where you got that idea I have no idea. (To be fair, in most decks I don't advocate for splashing at all. Even for shriekmaw)
But I can safely assume you don't think playing 8 blue sources is splashing. Yet only 8 sources, you don't get to see 2 islands 75% of the time or better until at least turn 7. Maybe later. I don't know what turn it is exactly because wtwlf's article on the subject doesn't even go to turn 7 because of how deep that is. I probably want the game just about wrapped up by turn 7 in any of my blue decks that are attacking (conveniently the turn after errant ephemeron etb off turn 2 suspend) and I definitely need my spells to be online against decks that want me dead by turn 7 if I'm the one backpedaling.
3) We all agree that mana leak is better than arcane denial in most game situations. You also have framed your argument in such a way that seems to handwave the fact that people don't just get to choose what's in their grip. I'd love a mana leak every time just as often as I'd wish every burn spell was Staggershock, but we play with second and third choices. I don't know what to tell you if you're going to reduce the argument to "play the card that's best in the situation you're in".
4) But vs counterspell, there are arguments to be made for drafting arcane denial over it. It is better than counterspell on average in some decks for literally the entire game, aka decks without a heavy blue mana base. And not even just because I may want to spend one of my blue mana on some kind of board development, although that is also something that happens.
It's the only card in existence that counters any spell for 1U. Going down a card in the card advantage battle is well worth it for the most security possible (this side of Force of will).
-
@ Spike rogue
The format is far more combat heavy than, say, the vintage magic online cube was but not so much that I consider playing a creature-only counter at under 400. Of the counterspells I'm not running, I'd consider miscalculation and complicate over essence scatter or the draw-a-card exclude.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Apologies for continuing to discuss my rare cube, but it's one place I'm qualified to say I've definitely seen the benefits of running Arcane Denial over other options.
Also, when I say I like Arcane Denial because it's "splashable", this doesn't mean I tend to put it in decks as the only blue card, just that it's easier to run it in decks with relatively few blue sources or spells. The same is true of Mana Leak or Remand.
It sounds like the differences between Peasant and rare cubing environments might make some C/U cards I'm used to thinking of as staples less valuable, though. I'm curious if there are any other C/U cards that might be better in rare cubes than they are in Peasant cubes.
EDIT: Spoiler tags added.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
The list should still be there, but the opinions are outdated almost certainly
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I wonder how easy/difficult this would be?
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
I'm not sure it would be valuable because people support different archetypes or have deliberate restrictions. Leelue supports blue aggro pretty hard, for example, and an aggregate list might drive people away from interesting archetypes like that just because most people aren't using them. It teaches people to equate underused with inherently worse, which isn't true and stifles creativity.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Utopia Vow costs "a card" for potential tempo/board advantage (turn a relevant creature into Manalith). It doesn't cantrip. This does. It's very relevant.
True it won't show a lot of peoples cards that are specific for archetypes, but the point of an average list is not to find cards that are for very specific archetypes, its to find what most people to consider good/solid cards that should be included even outside of those archetypes. I think the advantage of looking at the average cube from the people that post here regularly is you find an average peasant cube that is more likely to be up to date with respect to the newest mtg sets and an average of cubes that have probably been played/tested 10s to 100s of times and are very refined.
My 180 Peasant Cube on Cubetutor
I play snap, an unsummon variant, and the tempo gain from that can bury someone. Rushing river is an 0-for-2 and it's in my top 20-25 blue cards.
"Card advantage" is the most overrated metric in magic, especially when it comes at the cost of
A) not affecting the board when you're in the part of the game where you need to affect the board
And B) possibly your whole turn.
Also, like io said, you get to use your one extra card before they get to use their two extra cards. Pressing this advantage wins the game even more.
But like I said, maybe I come from a place where tempo is much more important than you do. I attack a lot in my blue decks, historically.
The traditional cube people rehashed their thread on arcane denial recently, by the way. You could go through that to see more points (search their card discussion forum for arcane denial) and just replace bombs like Armageddon and show and tell with cloudgoat ranger and shower of coals.
It's funny. I used to argue with Calibretto about arcane denial o believe. But I was on the other side.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
This is just plain wrong. First of all, both Remand and Arcane Denial cantrip which means that this cannot be held over Arcane Denial. If people were happy about the cantrip in the first case, they are also happy about it here. Secondly, the opponent is not cantripping since they are not getting to draw in addition to the effect they wanted. They are drawing cards instead of getting that effect. It is more akin to cycling, although they do of course get 2 cards in the end.
Really, in all simplicity: drawing cards is the cheapest type of card advantage since so many of their draws are likely to be lands which are often dead cards. Only tokens are on average worth less in terms of the nature of advantage. For example, killing two creatures is great because those were live cards which are now gone. A vast number of spells in Peasant would result in card advantage in any case, often more or in more relevant forms that cards in hand. This is not even taking into account the situations where a hard counter simply saves the day regardless of its consequences (which happen by slow-tripping, which is often relevant because the opponent is denied access to those resources on the same turn).