so similar; yet so, so different.
how relevant really, is the cmc of 3 vs 4 in the context of a black draw spell? 2cmc night's whisper and sign in blood
draw-scry vs. draw-discard?
Bitter Revelation is clearly a stronger card (disregarding mana costs), Not only do you get to put two cards into your graveyard, but you get to see all four possible cards before deciding what to do with the first two.
Let's say you have no land cards in hand, and the top cards of your deck are, in order: Swamp
Weak Spell Swamp
Strong Spell
You definitely want to draw one land, but you don't really have much use for two. With Read, you see one land and a weak spell and likely pitch the weak spell, hoping to draw a stronger spell + one land. However, you instead end up drawing two lands, and having to wait until next turn to draw the spell.
With Revelation, you get to see all four cards, and know you can safely pitch one land and the weaker spell and immediately end up with both a land and a strong spell in hand, plus whatever's now on top of your library next turn. It digs deeper in every case where the top two cards of your deck are not garbage, gives you full information to know which cards you don't want, and does something generally better with the cards you don't want.
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Revelation is certainly more powerful ignoring cost, but I think Read the Bones gives better bang for your buck. Being that it's only three mana, you can cast it on turn three and not feel like you're giving up too much tempo. Starting on turn four with my black decks I really want to be affecting the board with things like Nekrataal and Skinrender, catching back up on the tempo that I gave up to cast my Read the Bones. Drawn later in the game Revelation will obviously be better, but I don't think it makes up for the fact that it's a lot worse on curve.
Of course the four mana spell is better than the 3 mana spell if you don't count how much they cost...
Theoretically, unless I'm missing something, there is never a time when you want the effect on read the bones over the one on bitter revelation. If you assume all unknown cards are random until revealed, you ignore situations where you don't have to throw away 2 out of 4 good cards with revelation as opposed to keeping 4 good cards with read the bones.
But they don't cost the same.
A three mana spell has a scant chance of being used with other spells in the same turn. And, most importantly, it costing 3 means you can play it when you are stuck on three lands. The "keeps you in the game" argument is often overlooked.
What could be asked is "is bitter revelation worth spending an entire turn on compared to ambition's cost"
I think bitter is just as strong of a card as ambition, just depends on the deck you are playing. As for bitter versus read the bones, I would pick read the bones. Like most said bitter is a stronger ability, but I would rather have the 3 mana cost card for a couple of reasons, but mainly I want to play my strong 4 mana cards instead on turn 4 rather than bitter and read the bones is a little faster in the case where you are mana screwed.
Cheaper card draw spells also make it easier to play your new cards the turn you get them later in the game.
Comparing revelation to other 4cmc card drawing cards (Deep Analysis, Fact or Fiction) and it's not in the same league.
NW has an edge in the "digging you out of a hole"-scenario, as you can cast it on turn 3 with no land in hand and help you make that land drop. It is also the most likely to not cost you a whole turn late game.
The other two digs deeper so are giving you higher quality in your two cards. But they are not castable on two lands, and are more likely to take up your entire turn late game.
Bitter Revelation has some graveyard value. Reanimation is not its best use, but I guess it is better to reanimate on turn five than never at all. And a giant monster on turn 5 is probably not that different from what a typical ramp deck might achieve? Still, I feel it is perhaps better to look at it has having incidental value in the kind of grindy, controlling midrangy black decks that reanimate and regrow for value, rather than for combo points.
I think I then agree with most people here that Read the Bones is the better between it and Bitter Revelation; the ability to be cast on three mana is more important than the added value. But then I start to wonder if we should just extrapolate downwards and just play Night's Whisper. Simple and low CMC takes the match?
I guess the value of the higher CMC versions go up the more comfortable your deck is with spending an entire turn drawing cards, i.e. the longer it can make the game go. But is it enough of a value raise that they should be picked over the simple 2CMC version?
Of course, you might want two of these effects in your cube, in which case you probably run Night's Whisper and Read the bones, but in that case: Should you really be looking to replace it as soon as a better 2CMC option is printed?
(Should we also be discussing Altar's Reap while we're at it, or is it too different of a card? It struck me as the most playable of the other black 2CMC:draw two spells.)
i run night's whisper, sign in blood, read the bones, and ambition's cost. i just have a raging boner for that kind of card but bitter revelation doesn't do it for me. probably the mana cost.
I was gonna mention that I had disregarded the bonus player-kill of Sign in Blood to be relevant enough to warrant BB over 1B, but it slipped all of my minds.
I'm currently running zero black card draw options. I don't really like them, and would probably only consider one if we had phyrexian arena downshifted.
Like Squirrely said, black is chock full of inherent value:
It's by far the most value-ladened color in peasant cube. For that reason I find that there is almost always better ways to get my card advantage. There's currently not a one shot black draw spell that strikes me as good enough right now. Read the Bones is currently the best. Read the Bones is way better than Bitter Revelation:
1)black's 4cmc slot is one of the best slots in the cube. read the bones searches for and curves into them.
2)read the bones is more relevant for playing multiple spells, and is therefore better than bitter revelation on all turns except turn 4.
turn 3- read can be played, revelation cannot
turn 4- both can be played, but it's unlikely that the 1 extra mana you'll have after read the bones can go towards anything particularly relevant. revelation is better here.
turn 5- read the bones + a 2cmc spell (terror, doom blade, go for the throat, hymn to tourach, animate dead, dance of the dead, demonic tutor, etc). it's unlikely you'll play anything alongside revelation on this turn
turn 6- read the bones plus a 2/3 cmc spell, revelation plus a 2cmc spell
etc.
the extra viewing of 2 cards, and graveyard interaction on bitter revelation isn't enough to make up for the tempo loss.
What inscho said. It's not hard for black to find value two for ones. Also, it feels like black has the least diverse card set in cube. Basically meaning that the digging aspect of black's card selection spells is less useful. Almost all of its spells are either creature spells (or reanimating creatures) or kill spells. It's not as often black faces a specific threat that they only have one answer to.
So I also don't play any black card draw because it feels less useful than just anothet copy of whichever type of spell you most want.
Well, another way of looking at it could be that you would want to increase the black card diversity by also running some effects that aren't just Terror variants, and therefore run stuff like Night's Whisper.
Being the only instant option that has relevance, it's worth mentioning. It's also worth mentioning that it can't function at capacity until you're in the reloading portion of the game, which pushes it from contention for me.
this doesn't make any sense (?) — reloading 1-3cmc (the occasional 4cmc) creatures may not be what you need to answer [even worse if your creatures are outclassed] the board state you're in as opposed to drawing a combination of better late game creatures and or more removal.
edit: my first few iterations of my cube had skele scrying in it and recently I've considered finding a way of putting it back in.
so similar; yet so, so different.
how relevant really, is the cmc of 3 vs 4 in the context of a black draw spell? 2cmc night's whisper and sign in blood
draw-scry vs. draw-discard?
thoughts?
Let's say you have no land cards in hand, and the top cards of your deck are, in order:
Swamp
Weak Spell
Swamp
Strong Spell
You definitely want to draw one land, but you don't really have much use for two. With Read, you see one land and a weak spell and likely pitch the weak spell, hoping to draw a stronger spell + one land. However, you instead end up drawing two lands, and having to wait until next turn to draw the spell.
With Revelation, you get to see all four cards, and know you can safely pitch one land and the weaker spell and immediately end up with both a land and a strong spell in hand, plus whatever's now on top of your library next turn. It digs deeper in every case where the top two cards of your deck are not garbage, gives you full information to know which cards you don't want, and does something generally better with the cards you don't want.
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Theoretically, unless I'm missing something, there is never a time when you want the effect on read the bones over the one on bitter revelation. If you assume all unknown cards are random until revealed, you ignore situations where you don't have to throw away 2 out of 4 good cards with revelation as opposed to keeping 4 good cards with read the bones.
But they don't cost the same.
A three mana spell has a scant chance of being used with other spells in the same turn. And, most importantly, it costing 3 means you can play it when you are stuck on three lands. The "keeps you in the game" argument is often overlooked.
What could be asked is "is bitter revelation worth spending an entire turn on compared to ambition's cost"
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Exactly what I was thinking. And the answer's no unless I'm trying to overzealously support reanimator.
My 720 Peasant Cube
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
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Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
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Comparing revelation to other 4cmc card drawing cards (Deep Analysis, Fact or Fiction) and it's not in the same league.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
NW has an edge in the "digging you out of a hole"-scenario, as you can cast it on turn 3 with no land in hand and help you make that land drop. It is also the most likely to not cost you a whole turn late game.
The other two digs deeper so are giving you higher quality in your two cards. But they are not castable on two lands, and are more likely to take up your entire turn late game.
Bitter Revelation has some graveyard value. Reanimation is not its best use, but I guess it is better to reanimate on turn five than never at all. And a giant monster on turn 5 is probably not that different from what a typical ramp deck might achieve? Still, I feel it is perhaps better to look at it has having incidental value in the kind of grindy, controlling midrangy black decks that reanimate and regrow for value, rather than for combo points.
I think I then agree with most people here that Read the Bones is the better between it and Bitter Revelation; the ability to be cast on three mana is more important than the added value. But then I start to wonder if we should just extrapolate downwards and just play Night's Whisper. Simple and low CMC takes the match?
I guess the value of the higher CMC versions go up the more comfortable your deck is with spending an entire turn drawing cards, i.e. the longer it can make the game go. But is it enough of a value raise that they should be picked over the simple 2CMC version?
I see that Leelue, known for a fast cube, runs Night's Whisper and Read the bones but not Bitter Revelation. He also has Read the bones marked as "watched". Is it too clunky in that fast environment perhaps?
Of course, you might want two of these effects in your cube, in which case you probably run Night's Whisper and Read the bones, but in that case: Should you really be looking to replace it as soon as a better 2CMC option is printed?
(Should we also be discussing Altar's Reap while we're at it, or is it too different of a card? It struck me as the most playable of the other black 2CMC:draw two spells.)
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Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
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Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Homarid's post is really good, especially since it cites my cube for reference ha.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Like Squirrely said, black is chock full of inherent value:
in guild options
to name just what I'm running at 360.
It's by far the most value-ladened color in peasant cube. For that reason I find that there is almost always better ways to get my card advantage. There's currently not a one shot black draw spell that strikes me as good enough right now. Read the Bones is currently the best. Read the Bones is way better than Bitter Revelation:
1)black's 4cmc slot is one of the best slots in the cube. read the bones searches for and curves into them.
2)read the bones is more relevant for playing multiple spells, and is therefore better than bitter revelation on all turns except turn 4.
turn 3- read can be played, revelation cannot
turn 4- both can be played, but it's unlikely that the 1 extra mana you'll have after read the bones can go towards anything particularly relevant. revelation is better here.
turn 5- read the bones + a 2cmc spell (terror, doom blade, go for the throat, hymn to tourach, animate dead, dance of the dead, demonic tutor, etc). it's unlikely you'll play anything alongside revelation on this turn
turn 6- read the bones plus a 2/3 cmc spell, revelation plus a 2cmc spell
etc.
the extra viewing of 2 cards, and graveyard interaction on bitter revelation isn't enough to make up for the tempo loss.
So I also don't play any black card draw because it feels less useful than just anothet copy of whichever type of spell you most want.
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Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
simply because of tempo aspects.
Also black aggro needs card draw the most. More controlish decks have better options to gain CA.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
How would you rate Skeletal Scrying alongside the rest of these cards?
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I recommend Death Denied instead.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
edit: my first few iterations of my cube had skele scrying in it and recently I've considered finding a way of putting it back in.