Some other variant of number of boosters and cards in each booster?
End drafting of each pack with some number of cards remaining, to avoid everything just wheeling and wheeling? For example after 8 picks, when each player has seen each pack twice?
Me and my buddy's just draft 4 packs of 11 cards when there's only 4 or 5 of us. It allows for some slightly stronger than usual decks, but that's one of the goals of my cube anyways.
When we draft boosters, I actually prefer larger packs where we discard the last few picks, so something like 3 packs of 18, discarding the last 3 picks of each. Since you see a large pack, it gives you a lot of options for the first few picks and it means you will always have something in your colors.
A variant that my playgroup enjoys that is only really viable for 3-4 people is an auction draft. You lay out a pack of 15 and then each person writes down a bid for each card. Signalling is really clear and people come up with some fun bidding strategies.
I came up with this a couple of weeks ago, but I haven't tested it yet.
CITADELS DRAFT (4-people Draft).
- Each of the 4 players has 6, 14-cards boosters.
- Each player starts opening a 14-cards booster, and makes its first pick.
- Before passing the booster, chooses another card from the remaining 13 and puts it face-down on a discard pile.
- The boosters keep circulating, each player who recibes a boosters picks a card and discards the other, always face-down.
- When players receive the last two cards, also pick one and discard the other.
- Then the second booster is open, and the draft continues but changing draft direction.
- Finishing the 6-booster draft, each of the 4 players will have a 42-card pool to build the limited decks.
ADVANTAGES
- Card total in circulation is high (336), so the powerlevel of the decks is similar to that of a 8-people draft.
- Every pick is secret (unlike in grid draft).
- A hate-draft component is added.
- The hateful sensation of receiving the last card of the booster is deleted; every time you receive the booster, you have to make a choice.
- Each boster is drafted faster, cause two cards are removed each time.
DISADVANTAGES
- The larger amount of boosters compensates the faster draft-speed of each booster, so the total draft-time tends to be the same, or even a little slower.
BONUS
Something that could be added to this sistem, is playing an anti-draft after the normal-draft games. To do so, instead of putting the hate-discarded cards on a common discard pile, each player puts his hated cards on a face down discard pile of his own, and after the original games, each player gets the hate-pile of other player at random to build the best limited deck possible.
Wouldn't it be packs of 8, in order to go both "up and down the river"? Or I guess 7, since with 15 cards and 8 players the first pick of each booster ended up with only a single pick.
BONUS
Something that could be added to this system, is playing an anti-draft after the normal-draft games. To do so, instead of putting the hate-discarded cards on a common discard pile, each player puts his hated cards on a face down discard pile of his own, and after the original games, each player gets the hate-pile of other player at random to build the best limited deck possible.
What do you think?
I think Mark Rosewater mentioned that they did something like this for one of the early invitationals, and it turned out it wasn't really a good idea. Like it sounds cool, but in the end it boils down to how fun is it to play with a pile of crap with no colour consistency or plan whatsoever.. I'd imagine such games to be frequently determined by a Wind Drake for which there are no answers..
Before attempting it, I would check out the "Drive to work" podcasts on the invitationals. I think it was in there I have it from, perhaps you can take what he says into account and be able to tune the format somewhat to make it work.
I've tried a couple different ways of drafting with four that I've liked, none of which involve the standard "x packs of y cards drafted as normal" because I just don't like the way that plays out with four people.
#1 - Grid variant - Lay out a 3x3 grid as you would for any other grid draft, then after the first person picks, add three cards to the grid replacing what they took. Do the same after the second person makes their pick. Don't add anything after the third person makes their pick. The person who picked first last time now picks last. This allows you to see a really large portion of the cube and also drafts fairly quickly.
#2 - Tenchester - Make 32 or 36 packs of ten cards each. Lay one of them out face up. Each person gets one pick from the face up pack, the remaining six cards are discarded. Repeat with the remaining packs, rotating who picks first. This takes a little time, but it also allows you to see a large portion of the cube and it provides for a lot of tension in your draft selections when you have to choose between two cards that would both fit well in your deck.
One that I've been wanting to try but haven't had a chance to yet is a Solomon draft variant. Everyone has three packs of 15 cards. One person divides up a pack of 15 into four piles. The person to their left takes one of the piles, then the next person takes a pile, such that the person who made the piles gets the one that nobody else wanted. This would probably be the most time-consuming way to draft, but would also probably make for some of the more interesting decisions of any of the four-person draft variants. Trying to figure out how to make sure that something that you want comes back to you while keeping your opponents from getting really powerful stuff would be very challenging and I think a lot of fun.
When we draft boosters, I actually prefer larger packs where we discard the last few picks, so something like 3 packs of 18, discarding the last 3 picks of each. Since you see a large pack, it gives you a lot of options for the first few picks and it means you will always have something in your colors.
I would love to auction draft, but this is how I currently do it. Going larger and discarding chaff = better decks and a faster draft (assuming people can make decisions relatively quickly. If not, you probably even out the draft time but in exchange get better decks).
This is essentially what is being done in the "citadel" draft that our colleague posted earlier. Only he's giving you a greater number of selections in exchange for fewer cards to select from. In a perfect world, I'd rather get 30-32 cards and almost all of them be cards that I wanted, which you can do by going to 2 packs of 20 and discarding the last 3 or going even bigger and discarding slightly more (like 2 packs of 24, discard the last 7).
Deal out 8 packs of 16 (one more than the normal pack number)
Have 4 phantom drafters that are "seated" in between each of the players, so there are now "8" drafters.
Each drafter, including the invisible ones, gets a pack.
When you make your pick, take the pile to your right like normal, only this first passed pack is the untouched pack from the phantom drafter.
Your next pick would come from the real drafter on your right. Followed by the phantom on his right. Then the next real person. etc.
Each drafter would get 32 cards (since they absorb all the picks for the invisible people). But you get to see more cards per pack every pack. 16 in the first pack, 16 in the second pack, 15 in the 3rd, 15 in the 4th, 14 in the 5th, and so on. This, I do want to try now that I have the numbers up.
-------------------------------------
I will never again do 5 packs of nine. Decks are so much worse than the more advanced methods.
The way I draft with 4 is finding a 5th and 6th lol. Roommates makes drafting every weekend with 6 very easy. But if you must with 4, we don't draft and do a sealed of 90 cards, 2 grid drafts, or just a basic 4 packs of 11.
I guess I didn't know what Rochester meant. We do packs of 4 whenever there's a time constraint and we just want to get to playing.
I used to do 4 packs of 11 or 5 packs of 9, but I found that the deck quality improved quite a bit with larger packs. Leelue is right in that drafting does take longer as a result, but I think this is a good thing because it means people have more options to weigh.
The other format I'll give a mention to is Winston, which is quite fun with 3 or 4 people. If you're not familiar, you put all the cards you're drafting in a pile (I usually do 50 cards per players) and then you deal out other piles face down (usually one more pile than the number of players). The person drafting looks at the first pile, chooses to either take it and replace it with one card or leave it, add a card to the top and then repeat for the second pile. If they don't want any of the piles, they can take a card off the top of the big pile and then you draft until the big pile is empty.
Deal out 8 packs of 16 (one more than the normal pack number)
Have 4 phantom drafters that are "seated" in between each of the players, so there are now "8" drafters.
Each drafter, including the invisible ones, gets a pack.
When you make your pick, take the pile to your right like normal, only this first passed pack is the untouched pack from the phantom drafter.
Your next pick would come from the real drafter on your right. Followed by the phantom on his right. Then the next real person. etc.
Each drafter would get 32 cards (since they absorb all the picks for the invisible people). But you get to see more cards per pack every pack. 16 in the first pack, 16 in the second pack, 15 in the 3rd, 15 in the 4th, 14 in the 5th, and so on. This, I do want to try now that I have the numbers up.
That looks really interesting. I may have to give that a shot one time.
Deal out 8 packs of 16 (one more than the normal pack number)
Have 4 phantom drafters that are "seated" in between each of the players, so there are now "8" drafters.
Each drafter, including the invisible ones, gets a pack.
When you make your pick, take the pile to your right like normal, only this first passed pack is the untouched pack from the phantom drafter.
Your next pick would come from the real drafter on your right. Followed by the phantom on his right. Then the next real person. etc.
Each drafter would get 32 cards (since they absorb all the picks for the invisible people). But you get to see more cards per pack every pack. 16 in the first pack, 16 in the second pack, 15 in the 3rd, 15 in the 4th, 14 in the 5th, and so on. This, I do want to try now that I have the numbers up.
That looks really interesting. I may have to give that a shot one time.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this effectively just doing a normal draft with two packs of 16 per person? The only difference is that instead of completely drafting pack 1 and then opening pack 2, you're drafting pack 1 and pack 2 at basically the same time (and in the same direction).
All of the information about what is in the pool also comes around pick 8 (1/4th of the way through), instead of pick 16 (halfway through).
The cards you're effectively choosing from (what's in your colors, as your colors become clearer) diminishes slowly in one swoop instead of rapidly and then halfway through restarting.
At first I didn't understand the 'Draft with Phantoms' =P but now that I did, I think it looks pretty cool.
Should give it a try, specially because if the powerlevel is high enough, it's a good way of drafting for a great number of people with a small cube. With a 400 cube 12 people could draft simultaneously. (on 3 different groups of 4). Hey, If you have a 450 cube, could make the 8 boosters with 18 cards and still run 12 people. Crazy.
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Holiday Armadillo... Cloak
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
I just tested the system out. Worked beautifully, but you should go up to 17 cards a pack. At 16, I had one deck just barely make their 23rd card on the back of squadron hawks, and another deck have 24 playables (even though the deck was still amazing)
So at 17, that's 2 more cards per person + extra selection.
depending on the cube. my tier1 need to be drafted completely to give certain centerpieces to the archetypes. we often drafted 2 decks at once. each player behaves like two players.
depending on the cube. my tier1 need to be drafted completely to give certain centerpieces to the archetypes. we often drafted 2 decks at once. each player behaves like two players.
That's interesting.. although it sounds confusing. For some of the people I am playing with, that is completely off the table, as they aren't experienced drafters.
How do you then play after? Do you choose one of the piles and build your deck from? Or do you actually build both decks and then play everyone with every deck?
we had 2 piles and build 2 decks. After that you just chose which deck you want to play first and when the other 2 are still in their first match, you switch decks.
we had little papers with numbers we put in front of us, so nobody gets too confused which deck is currently drafting.
After doing one more "imaginary friends" draft I think I really like it. Somewhere between 18 and 17 cards works great.
Still, due to complexity concerns, doing larger packs with cards binned at the end may remain my go to. I've totally backed out of doing the "more packs of fewer" because card selection is so poor and the disproportionate alignment of colors that can crop up becomes amplified.
Normal 3x15 boosters?
Some other variant of number of boosters and cards in each booster?
End drafting of each pack with some number of cards remaining, to avoid everything just wheeling and wheeling? For example after 8 picks, when each player has seen each pack twice?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
A variant that my playgroup enjoys that is only really viable for 3-4 people is an auction draft. You lay out a pack of 15 and then each person writes down a bid for each card. Signalling is really clear and people come up with some fun bidding strategies.
We also do Rochester drafts with 40 packs of 4.
Judge Tower: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/80859
My 540 CU/be thread
CITADELS DRAFT (4-people Draft).
- Each of the 4 players has 6, 14-cards boosters.
- Each player starts opening a 14-cards booster, and makes its first pick.
- Before passing the booster, chooses another card from the remaining 13 and puts it face-down on a discard pile.
- The boosters keep circulating, each player who recibes a boosters picks a card and discards the other, always face-down.
- When players receive the last two cards, also pick one and discard the other.
- Then the second booster is open, and the draft continues but changing draft direction.
- Finishing the 6-booster draft, each of the 4 players will have a 42-card pool to build the limited decks.
ADVANTAGES
- Card total in circulation is high (336), so the powerlevel of the decks is similar to that of a 8-people draft.
- Every pick is secret (unlike in grid draft).
- A hate-draft component is added.
- The hateful sensation of receiving the last card of the booster is deleted; every time you receive the booster, you have to make a choice.
- Each boster is drafted faster, cause two cards are removed each time.
DISADVANTAGES
- The larger amount of boosters compensates the faster draft-speed of each booster, so the total draft-time tends to be the same, or even a little slower.
BONUS
Something that could be added to this sistem, is playing an anti-draft after the normal-draft games. To do so, instead of putting the hate-discarded cards on a common discard pile, each player puts his hated cards on a face down discard pile of his own, and after the original games, each player gets the hate-pile of other player at random to build the best limited deck possible.
What do you think?
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
Wouldn't it be packs of 8, in order to go both "up and down the river"? Or I guess 7, since with 15 cards and 8 players the first pick of each booster ended up with only a single pick.
I think Mark Rosewater mentioned that they did something like this for one of the early invitationals, and it turned out it wasn't really a good idea. Like it sounds cool, but in the end it boils down to how fun is it to play with a pile of crap with no colour consistency or plan whatsoever.. I'd imagine such games to be frequently determined by a Wind Drake for which there are no answers..
Before attempting it, I would check out the "Drive to work" podcasts on the invitationals. I think it was in there I have it from, perhaps you can take what he says into account and be able to tune the format somewhat to make it work.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
#1 - Grid variant - Lay out a 3x3 grid as you would for any other grid draft, then after the first person picks, add three cards to the grid replacing what they took. Do the same after the second person makes their pick. Don't add anything after the third person makes their pick. The person who picked first last time now picks last. This allows you to see a really large portion of the cube and also drafts fairly quickly.
#2 - Tenchester - Make 32 or 36 packs of ten cards each. Lay one of them out face up. Each person gets one pick from the face up pack, the remaining six cards are discarded. Repeat with the remaining packs, rotating who picks first. This takes a little time, but it also allows you to see a large portion of the cube and it provides for a lot of tension in your draft selections when you have to choose between two cards that would both fit well in your deck.
One that I've been wanting to try but haven't had a chance to yet is a Solomon draft variant. Everyone has three packs of 15 cards. One person divides up a pack of 15 into four piles. The person to their left takes one of the piles, then the next person takes a pile, such that the person who made the piles gets the one that nobody else wanted. This would probably be the most time-consuming way to draft, but would also probably make for some of the more interesting decisions of any of the four-person draft variants. Trying to figure out how to make sure that something that you want comes back to you while keeping your opponents from getting really powerful stuff would be very challenging and I think a lot of fun.
CubeTutor: www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/72
Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=512410
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
I would love to auction draft, but this is how I currently do it. Going larger and discarding chaff = better decks and a faster draft (assuming people can make decisions relatively quickly. If not, you probably even out the draft time but in exchange get better decks).
This is essentially what is being done in the "citadel" draft that our colleague posted earlier. Only he's giving you a greater number of selections in exchange for fewer cards to select from. In a perfect world, I'd rather get 30-32 cards and almost all of them be cards that I wanted, which you can do by going to 2 packs of 20 and discarding the last 3 or going even bigger and discarding slightly more (like 2 packs of 24, discard the last 7).
.................................................................................................
I'm sure you could also do something like this:
Deal out 8 packs of 16 (one more than the normal pack number)
Have 4 phantom drafters that are "seated" in between each of the players, so there are now "8" drafters.
Each drafter, including the invisible ones, gets a pack.
When you make your pick, take the pile to your right like normal, only this first passed pack is the untouched pack from the phantom drafter.
Your next pick would come from the real drafter on your right. Followed by the phantom on his right. Then the next real person. etc.
Each drafter would get 32 cards (since they absorb all the picks for the invisible people). But you get to see more cards per pack every pack. 16 in the first pack, 16 in the second pack, 15 in the 3rd, 15 in the 4th, 14 in the 5th, and so on. This, I do want to try now that I have the numbers up.
-------------------------------------
I will never again do 5 packs of nine. Decks are so much worse than the more advanced methods.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I used to do 4 packs of 11 or 5 packs of 9, but I found that the deck quality improved quite a bit with larger packs. Leelue is right in that drafting does take longer as a result, but I think this is a good thing because it means people have more options to weigh.
The other format I'll give a mention to is Winston, which is quite fun with 3 or 4 people. If you're not familiar, you put all the cards you're drafting in a pile (I usually do 50 cards per players) and then you deal out other piles face down (usually one more pile than the number of players). The person drafting looks at the first pile, chooses to either take it and replace it with one card or leave it, add a card to the top and then repeat for the second pile. If they don't want any of the piles, they can take a card off the top of the big pile and then you draft until the big pile is empty.
Judge Tower: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/80859
That looks really interesting. I may have to give that a shot one time.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this effectively just doing a normal draft with two packs of 16 per person? The only difference is that instead of completely drafting pack 1 and then opening pack 2, you're drafting pack 1 and pack 2 at basically the same time (and in the same direction).
Formerly hedgehogger
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
The cards you're effectively choosing from (what's in your colors, as your colors become clearer) diminishes slowly in one swoop instead of rapidly and then halfway through restarting.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Should give it a try, specially because if the powerlevel is high enough, it's a good way of drafting for a great number of people with a small cube. With a 400 cube 12 people could draft simultaneously. (on 3 different groups of 4). Hey, If you have a 450 cube, could make the 8 boosters with 18 cards and still run 12 people. Crazy.
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
So at 17, that's 2 more cards per person + extra selection.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
That's interesting.. although it sounds confusing. For some of the people I am playing with, that is completely off the table, as they aren't experienced drafters.
How do you then play after? Do you choose one of the piles and build your deck from? Or do you actually build both decks and then play everyone with every deck?
Anyone else tried this?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
we had little papers with numbers we put in front of us, so nobody gets too confused which deck is currently drafting.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Still, due to complexity concerns, doing larger packs with cards binned at the end may remain my go to. I've totally backed out of doing the "more packs of fewer" because card selection is so poor and the disproportionate alignment of colors that can crop up becomes amplified.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article