Okay, My votes are in! I went ahead and did everything except for gold. Not sure how were doing or or how I want to rank it anyway.
Sorry for being late, but maybe being ahead will make up for it?
If I don't cube a card, I don't rank it. All lists are in descending order, and I don't rank F-prints separately.
Yeah, red seems like "rank the burn spells" right now. Hopefully things like Generator Servant mean that we might be getting some more unique red cards in the future.
But power rankings like this lose a lot of their credibility if 80% of the thread are just discussions like this. I suggest everyone go back to the actual ranking without discussing about it.
I don't agree in general with the "don't discuss the section you're voting on" notion; those discussions seem completely topical. But, I do agree that the discussion on looters got off topic, especially since I posted preliminary results for blue a while ago. How about further discussion about blue / looters go to either a) the results thread for this project, b) the main cube discussion thread, or c) some other new thread?
Sorry about the rant, I'll end it here. But power rankings like this lose a lot of their credibility if 80% of the thread are just discussions like this. I suggest everyone go back to the actual ranking without discussing about it.
Actually, youre a little bit late to the party, the discussion is already done and you reopened it Btw I completely disagree with your opinion, because it absolutely depends on the metagame your creating.
I've posted initial results for red in the Results Thread. Five people voted for red cards; feel free to submit votes for red if you didn't already until this project is complete, and I'll update results accordingly.
EDIT: Also, I updated previous results with Ixoran's votes.
Stopped reading after the first few posts about the topic, but it's enough to have an opinion on this.
I do not understand why there is a discussion about Looter power levels going on here. It is agreed upon that Looters are insane, in fact enough people complained about a Looter being a Common a few core sets back and they stopped printing them at common rarity. Having a debate on whether Looters or blue Cantrips are better early game is almost ridiculous. Cantrips are bad, among the very worst cards people still run in their cubes. Preordain is fine in Cube, Ponder is way worse and Brainstorm is simply a very mediocre card that people only rate so highly because they can't accept the fact that the best card in legacy is weak in Pauper.
A turn 2 Looter singlehandedly wins the game. It's like a Planeswalker ticking up to its ultimate. They are the Dark Confidants of Pauper. Either your opponent kills it by turn 3 or 4, or the game is very heavily in your favor. Card selection advantage over 10 turns is not beatable in Pauper. Also, I thought this was obvious, but I guess I have to explain it. You loot when you need to. You don't loot when you don't need to. The decision whether to loot or not has absolutely Zero to do with the turn you're on. It only depends on your hand. If you have the perfect hand going into the late game, you don't loot. If you have 4 Lands and only 2 spells in your hand turn 3, you start looting right away. Seriously, Brainstorm turn 2 is utterly terrible. About the worst card you could possibly play turn 2 if you don't have a shuffle effect. In contrast to that, the number of games that a player lost after 6-7 turns of looting is very very small. If it happens, you opponent either had the god draw or your deck had the worst 20 cards stacked on top.
Sorry about the rant, I'll end it here. But power rankings like this lose a lot of their credibility if 80% of the thread are just discussions like this. I suggest everyone go back to the actual ranking without discussing about it.
That whole discussion started with mainly just Humphrey trolling as per usual. I think the majority of the forum is in accordance that looters have and always will be good. The whole Brainstorm issue seems to get brought up about once every 2 months by what I'm assuming are new people to pauper joining the forums or when it randomly gets reprinted which has actually been pretty frequent lately.
I know this comment is probably splitting hairs, but doesn't Llanowar Elves and company trump Arbor Elf? Sometimes you don't have a forest to untap.
I'll even post my top 20 green cards! Even though this isn't really a format I delve in too much.
I feel like I should put cards from my list no one else likes higher up on my list to give them a chance at getting on the main list. Like I should put mad prophet as my #1 or something. You could also literally make your whole list burn spells if you wanted, so I tried to go a little easy on those but they're still dominating the top slots.
That whole discussion started with mainly just Humphrey trolling as per usual. I think the majority of the forum is in accordance that looters have and always will be good. The whole Brainstorm issue seems to get brought up about once every 2 months by what I'm assuming are new people to pauper joining the forums or when it randomly gets reprinted which has actually been pretty frequent lately.
I thought humphrey was an obnoxious troll when he was new to these boards, but now I know he can just be abrasive and stubborn. I think he has contributed a lot of solid content to our discussions in the last few months.
I think looters are a bit overrated here too. I use divination as my baseline to compare card draw spells against: 2C to draw 2 cards right now. Look at merfolk looter: 1C to cast, takes 2 MORE TURNS to see the same number of cards as a simple divination gives you immediately, and you had to discard cards. Also, you give your opponent an opportunity to disrupt your card draw spell with any removal or ping.
I am not saying looters are not good, and their merits have been expounded upon here at length. I just think humphrey has a point in that they are being over-valued.
The problem with humphrey is, that he tries, to tell us, that we are all dumb, for not playing, what he plays, or saying, that there are stronger cards.
This is the issue really. I enjoy seeing and listening to other peoples perspectives, but most of his arguments are veiled insults. He has brought some good attention to certain cards though.
Like your discussion guys ;D
I still kinda like Rogue Elephant and Tiger, though. But with the printing of Swordwise Centaur it just happen to be better not to sac your land and still have 3+2-power on turn 2. But as you can see, I still run a stompy-configuration.
Blastoderm is the strongest card in pauper cube except MAYBE guardian of the guildpact. It's simply not a fair card. How can you honestly put it anywhere but #1
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Blastoderm is the strongest card in pauper cube except MAYBE guardian of the guildpact. It's simply not a fair card. How can you honestly put it anywhere but #1
I think its way better than Guardian. Guardian is a really slow clock.
Wow, umm, this ended up being harder than I thought to arrange in a rated 20 instead of whether or not it is included into a the block of a color, and I'm still not happy with the list after reworking it a few times. But at least now I know there should be a few questions added to the post tournament analysis I have people fill out every week for free entry.
To touch on what maybe controversial placings and I reserve the right to change up this list if I am proven wrong or get a good suggestion on a reshuffle before voting ends : Sprout Swarm, while no doubt powerful and in my cube, lately never seems to do more than clog up the board if it makes the cut at all. There was a point in the past where it was vicious and nearly always somewhere in the top 4 decks at the end of round 3 but I think somewhere along the lines people just got bored of playing it and as such have no real reliable data for late 2013 to now. As it stands I was almost inclined to not include it this year because of that, but I have seen it stop armies and break stalemates enough in the past that it had to go in there somewhere.
Vines of Vastwood, is rated higher than most other have if they even have it rated at all. This maybe because I play an AClog style of mono green stompy online and have shown people the tricks so this card is valued for the versatility it provides. In the past few months alone I have seen it stop things like Mark of the Vampire, Armadillo Cloak, and [card]Rancor[/card} from resolving on an opponent's creature in addition to doing the obvious of stopping an unblocked creature from being killed while going in for +4 damage at the same time. I may very well drop this more to the lower middle of the pack later tonight, but it definitely deserves some place in the top 20.
Utopia Sprawl was rated higher than the mana elves due to color fixing as most of the decks I have seen play green this year have been G/x/x or G/X/x and I can't remember a time in which someone has made a game winning play that involved the elves going sideways into the red. I will try and see if I can build a G/x or G/X deck at the next couple of drafts while picking up the elves, sticking equipment or auras to them should prove it to be more powerful than the sprawl late game as you would get to ramp a little for turns 2-4 and then get something a little more useful late in the game when more than enough mana is available.
Darkthicket wolf didn't make it, not because I don't think its a great card, it really is, it is a reasonable body that curves it self out late game. I simply couldn't decide what I was going to cut right now to get it a spot.
Again I want to say, if you disagree with the position or inclusion of anything please let me know, I would love to hear why. In the years since I first built this cube there have been some truly nuts additions printed, discovered or down graded to common that have made it quite a bit faster and more cut throat.
I agree that ranking the cards in the correct order is difficult. I dont take it too serious and just place them +-1 spot where I think it belongs.
I would never rate Sprawl that high, because its an awful topdeck midgame and a manaelf could still chump.
One spot I think absolutely has no place in the T20 is Young Wolf. Looks good on paper, sucky on the table. Early its never a threat, later a 2/2 is useless. Great in sacrifice archetype though.
2 Doom Blade
3 Terror
4 Disturbed Burial
5 Hymn to Tourach
6 Crypt Rats
7 Death Denied
8 Snuff Out
9 Ashes to Ashes
10 Grim Harvest
11 Last Gasp
12 Twisted Abomination
13 Gray merchant of Asphodel
14 Faceless Butcher
15 Chittering Rats
16 Chilling Shade
17 Read the Bones
18 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
19 Crippling Fatigue
20 Vampire Lacerator
(not sure if I am allowed to vote for Predatory Nightstalker and not sure I would rank it anyway)
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Sorry for being late, but maybe being ahead will make up for it?
If I don't cube a card, I don't rank it. All lists are in descending order, and I don't rank F-prints separately.
2 Custodi Squire
3 Coalition Honor Guard
4 Seraph of Dawn
5 Oblivion Ring
6 Faith's Fetter's
7 Journey to Nowhere
8 Bonds of faith
9 Pacifism
10 Celestial Flare
11 Syndic of tithes
12 Totem Guide Hartebeast
13 Gideon's Lawkeeper
14 Squall Drifter
15 Attended Knight
16 Noble Templar
17 Troubled Healer
18 Supply Line Cranes
19 Lone Missionary
20 Deftblade Elite
2 Mist Raven
3 Man O War
4 Looter Il-kor
5 Capsize
6 Narcolepsy
7 Errant Ephemeron
8 Thalakos Scout
9 Ray of Command
10 Ninja of the Deep Hours
11 Deep Analysis
12 Exclude
13 Flood
14 Miscalculation
15 Mana Leak
16 Daze
17 Counterspell
18 Foresee
19 Benthic Giant
20 Condescend
2 Doom Blade
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Stab Wound
5 Disturbed Burial
6 Grim Harvest
7 Twisted Abomination
8 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
9 Crypt Rats
10 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
11 Perilous Shadow
12 Paralyze
13 Ashes to ashes
14 Faceless Butcher
15 Death Denied
16 Dauthi Maraduer
17 Terror
18 Snuff Out
19 Chittering Rats
20 Phyrexian Rager
2 Fireball
3 Disintegrate
4 Spikeshot Goblin
5 Staggershock
6 Lightning Bolt
7 Chain Lightning
8 Pyrotechnics
9 Firebolt
10 Arc Lightning
11 Incinerate
12 Ghitu Slinger
13 Burst Lightning
14 Searing Blaze
15 Madcap Skills
16 Flame Slash
17 Reckless Charge
18 Rukh Egg
19 Chartooth Cougar
20 Flurry of Horns
2 Sprout Swarm
3 Rancor
4 Krosan Tusker
5 Nessian Asp
6 Fyndhorn Elves
7 Sentinel Spider
8 Leafcrown Dryad
9 Werebear
10 Grazing Gladehart
11 Trusted Forcemage
12 Wall of Roots
13 Primal Huntebeast
14 Silhana Ledgewalker
15 Mire Boa
16 River Boa
17 Cultivate/ Kodama's Reach
18 Citanul Woodreaders
19 Penumbra Spider
20 Snake Umbra
2 Bonesplitter
3 Whispersilk Cloak
4 Sylvok Lifestaff
5 Flayer Husk
6 Cogwork Librarian
7 Pristine Talisman
8 Strider Harness
9 Adventuring Gear
10 Leonin Scimitar
11 Porcelain Legionaire
12 Perilous Myr
13 Viridian Longbow
14 Fleetfeather Sandals
15 Serrated Arrows
16 Prismatic Lens
17 Slash Panther
18 Pith Driller
19 Armillary Sphere
20 Ulamog's Crusher
2 Desert
3 Bouncelands
4 Panoramas
5 Teetering Peeks
6 Guildgates
7 Haunted Fengraf
8 Halimar Depths
9 Sejiri Steppe
10 Transguild Promenade/Rupture Spire
Constructed (Casual) | Pinksleeves |
Constructed (Pauper) | Izzet Fiend | Mono Black | Burn |
Constructed (Standard) | Under Construction |
Constructed (Modern) | Fate Seal |
Constructed (Legacy) | Dream Halls |
Constructed (Vintage) | Not Yet |
Constructed (Commander) | Sliver Overlord | Uril, the Miststalker | Braids, Cabal Minion |
Limited | Alara Block | Time Spiral Block | Innistrad Block | Rise of the Eldrazi |
02 Pyrotechnics
03 Fireball
04 Lightning Bolt
05 Incinerate / Searing Spear / Lightning Strike
06 Arc Lightning
07 Brimstone Volley
08 Staggershock
09 Firebolt
10 Disintegrate / Kaervek's Torch / Lava Burst
11 Chain Lightning
12 Rift Bolt
13 Volcanic Hammer
14 Madcap Skills
15 Gorehorn Minotaurs
16 Splatter Thug
17 Plated Geopede
18 Spikeshot Goblin
19 Gorehouse Chainwalker
20 Rukh Egg
Ha, Functional reprints.
Constructed (Casual) | Pinksleeves |
Constructed (Pauper) | Izzet Fiend | Mono Black | Burn |
Constructed (Standard) | Under Construction |
Constructed (Modern) | Fate Seal |
Constructed (Legacy) | Dream Halls |
Constructed (Vintage) | Not Yet |
Constructed (Commander) | Sliver Overlord | Uril, the Miststalker | Braids, Cabal Minion |
Limited | Alara Block | Time Spiral Block | Innistrad Block | Rise of the Eldrazi |
I don't agree in general with the "don't discuss the section you're voting on" notion; those discussions seem completely topical. But, I do agree that the discussion on looters got off topic, especially since I posted preliminary results for blue a while ago. How about further discussion about blue / looters go to either a) the results thread for this project, b) the main cube discussion thread, or c) some other new thread?
Actually, youre a little bit late to the party, the discussion is already done and you reopened it Btw I completely disagree with your opinion, because it absolutely depends on the metagame your creating.
Personally I think its fine to discuss some choices here and the results can already be found here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/pauper-peasant-discussion/561752-2014-pauper-power-rankings-results-thread
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
02 Gorehorn Minotaurs
03 Searing Blaze
04 Lightning Bolt
05 Fireball
06 Brimstone Volley
07 Chain Lightning
08 Incinerate
09 Fault Riders
10 Splatter Thug
11 Ashmouth Hound
12 Arc Lightning
13 Firebolt
14 Pyrotechnics
15 Sparksmith
16 Blood Ogre
17 Thundering Giant
18 Madcap Skills
19 Gore-House Chainwalker
20 Gathan Raiders
EDIT: Also, I updated previous results with Ixoran's votes.
Green cards are next!
That whole discussion started with mainly just Humphrey trolling as per usual. I think the majority of the forum is in accordance that looters have and always will be good. The whole Brainstorm issue seems to get brought up about once every 2 months by what I'm assuming are new people to pauper joining the forums or when it randomly gets reprinted which has actually been pretty frequent lately.
02 Sprout Swarm
03 Blastoderm
04 Imperiosaur
05 Moldervine Cloak
06 Rancor
07 Sentinel Spider
08 Wickerbough Elder
09 River Boa
10 Nessian Asp
11 Wall of Roots
12 Penumbra Spider
13 Wild Leotau
14 Silhana Ledgewalker
15 Aura Gnarlid
16 Krosan Tusker
17 Vines of Vastwood
18 Cultivate
19 Overgrowth
20 Darkthicket Wolf
Edit for clarity on my number one.
I'll even post my top 20 green cards! Even though this isn't really a format I delve in too much.
02 Rancor
03 Llanowar Elves
04 Sprout Swarm
05 Darkthicket Wolf
06 Viridian Emissary
07 Penumbra Spider
08 Mire Boa
09 Borderland Ranger
10 Wall of Roots
11 Nessian Courser
12 Jungle Lion
13 Trusted Forcemage
14 Krosan Tusker (cycle)
15 Hungry Spriggan
16 Leafcrown Dryad
17 Wickerbough Elder
18 Wild Leotau
19 Sentinel Spider
20 Nessian Asp
2 flame slash
3 staggershock
4 arc lightning
5 gore-house chainwalker
6 incinerate (searing spear, lightning strike)
7 minotaur skullcleaver
8 pyrotechnics
9 rolling thunder
10 ghitu slinger
11 magma burst
12 mad prophet
13 immolating souleater
14 plated geopede
15 chartooth cougar
16 brute force (rubblebelt maaka)
17 firebolt
18 splatter thug
19 searing blaze
20 keldon marauders
I feel like I should put cards from my list no one else likes higher up on my list to give them a chance at getting on the main list. Like I should put mad prophet as my #1 or something. You could also literally make your whole list burn spells if you wanted, so I tried to go a little easy on those but they're still dominating the top slots.
2 rancor
3 arbor elf
4 llanowar elves (fyndhorn elves, elvish mystic)
5 fertile ground
6 primal huntbeast
7 jungle lion
8 commune with the gods
9 basking rootwalla
10 wild mongrel
11 giant growth (groundswell)
12 penumbra spider
13 sakura-tribe elder
14 trusted forcemage
15 mire boa (river boa)
16 civic wayfinder (borderland ranger)
17 wickerbough elder
18 darkthicket wolf
19 feral invocation
20 nest invader
I thought humphrey was an obnoxious troll when he was new to these boards, but now I know he can just be abrasive and stubborn. I think he has contributed a lot of solid content to our discussions in the last few months.
I think looters are a bit overrated here too. I use divination as my baseline to compare card draw spells against: 2C to draw 2 cards right now. Look at merfolk looter: 1C to cast, takes 2 MORE TURNS to see the same number of cards as a simple divination gives you immediately, and you had to discard cards. Also, you give your opponent an opportunity to disrupt your card draw spell with any removal or ping.
I am not saying looters are not good, and their merits have been expounded upon here at length. I just think humphrey has a point in that they are being over-valued.
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
Click here and check out my Formerly Pauper Cube.
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
This is the issue really. I enjoy seeing and listening to other peoples perspectives, but most of his arguments are veiled insults. He has brought some good attention to certain cards though.
I still kinda like Rogue Elephant and Tiger, though. But with the printing of Swordwise Centaur it just happen to be better not to sac your land and still have 3+2-power on turn 2. But as you can see, I still run a stompy-configuration.
My ratings to green:
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
Click here and check out my Formerly Pauper Cube.
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
I think its way better than Guardian. Guardian is a really slow clock.
Blastoderm reads 2GG: Deal 15 dmg
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
If you look at his top 20 lists, he isn't really doing that.
02 River Boa/Mire Boa
03 Blastoderm
04 Moldervine Cloak
05 Vines of Vastwood
06 Penumbra Spider
07 Utopia Sprawl
08 Llanowar Elves/Elvish Mystic/Fyndhorn Elves
09 Wall of Roots
10 Sentinel Spider
11 Nessian Asp
12 Sprout Swarm
13 Yavimaya Elder
14 Cultivate/Kodama’s Reach
15 Hungry Spriggan
16 Wickerbough Elder
17 Primal Huntbeast
18 Krosan Tusker
19 Darkthicket Wolf
20 Imperiousaur
Wow, umm, this ended up being harder than I thought to arrange in a rated 20 instead of whether or not it is included into a the block of a color, and I'm still not happy with the list after reworking it a few times. But at least now I know there should be a few questions added to the post tournament analysis I have people fill out every week for free entry.
To touch on what maybe controversial placings and I reserve the right to change up this list if I am proven wrong or get a good suggestion on a reshuffle before voting ends :
Sprout Swarm, while no doubt powerful and in my cube, lately never seems to do more than clog up the board if it makes the cut at all. There was a point in the past where it was vicious and nearly always somewhere in the top 4 decks at the end of round 3 but I think somewhere along the lines people just got bored of playing it and as such have no real reliable data for late 2013 to now. As it stands I was almost inclined to not include it this year because of that, but I have seen it stop armies and break stalemates enough in the past that it had to go in there somewhere.
Vines of Vastwood, is rated higher than most other have if they even have it rated at all. This maybe because I play an AClog style of mono green stompy online and have shown people the tricks so this card is valued for the versatility it provides. In the past few months alone I have seen it stop things like Mark of the Vampire, Armadillo Cloak, and [card]Rancor[/card} from resolving on an opponent's creature in addition to doing the obvious of stopping an unblocked creature from being killed while going in for +4 damage at the same time. I may very well drop this more to the lower middle of the pack later tonight, but it definitely deserves some place in the top 20.
Utopia Sprawl was rated higher than the mana elves due to color fixing as most of the decks I have seen play green this year have been G/x/x or G/X/x and I can't remember a time in which someone has made a game winning play that involved the elves going sideways into the red. I will try and see if I can build a G/x or G/X deck at the next couple of drafts while picking up the elves, sticking equipment or auras to them should prove it to be more powerful than the sprawl late game as you would get to ramp a little for turns 2-4 and then get something a little more useful late in the game when more than enough mana is available.
Darkthicket wolf didn't make it, not because I don't think its a great card, it really is, it is a reasonable body that curves it self out late game. I simply couldn't decide what I was going to cut right now to get it a spot.Again I want to say, if you disagree with the position or inclusion of anything please let me know, I would love to hear why. In the years since I first built this cube there have been some truly nuts additions printed, discovered or down graded to common that have made it quite a bit faster and more cut throat.
EDIT : see http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/pauper-peasant-discussion/560973-2014-pauper-power-rankings-voting-and-information?comment=120 for why.
I would never rate Sprawl that high, because its an awful topdeck midgame and a manaelf could still chump.
One spot I think absolutely has no place in the T20 is Young Wolf. Looks good on paper, sucky on the table. Early its never a threat, later a 2/2 is useless. Great in sacrifice archetype though.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t