Not that I expect anyone to agree with me or change their mind, but I do think those are better than their similar counterparts and I have my reasons.
I have found sift to be a lot better than compulsive research. They are the same except for 1 more mana you can pitch whatever you like, and it's worth it. There are times when you don't want to picth a land, and there are times when you want to pitch a ramp spell or nonland mana source. You're only casting these spells early game if you're desperate, and you probably don't want to discard lands on turn 3 or 4, so the extra mana hardly matters on cards that you are planning on playing late game. I suppose compulsive is better if you keep a shaky hand and you need to dig for lands, just for being 1 mana cheaper, though you'll have to pitch 2 spells instead of 1. But sift is better at their main job, card advantage.
Obviously foresee is better than sift, and I put it in my #2 slot.
Deep analysis is good for sure, but I found the life cost to be too steep against aggro decks. Until you have stabilized, it's 3U sorcery speed draw 2, which is not good. And even if you have stabilized somewhat, paying 3 life can put you back in range to be killed by haste creatures and/or burn. Against decks that aren't super fast, it is a great card, but sift and foresee are at their best in all matchups.
Divination is really good because it helps you hit land drops early game or gives you gas late game.
Sorcery speed carddraw spells are nearly always bad against agressive decks. I would rank all of the sorcery card draw spells as lategame cards, when you don't have that many cards left in your hand I think Compulsive Research and Deep Analysis are by far the best late. I think I would need a really bad hand to cast any of these on curve.
If you only evaluate them for the late game then why would you choose compulsive research over sift?
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Apologies for not being on here for a bit. My vote for blue is below, and I'll compile initial blue results either late tonight or early tomorrow morning. If anyone else wants to vote on blue (or white) after I compile the initial results, I'll go back and recalculate things.
I also think that Aether Adept and Man-o'-War aren't functional reprints, either by definition or in terms of play - the additional blue mana can make a big difference. For people who listed them as functional reprints, unless you want me to do something else, I'll rank them separately (but equally), and move the rest of your rankings down accordingly to accommodate the additional card.
Regarding color categorization for certain mono vs. multi-colored cards, I think metalevolence does have a point in some cases. So how about this - if everyone voting agrees on an exception to EDH rules in a particular case (e.g. for something like Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl), then we'll categorize it differently. I think the two big problem cards are Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl. Does anybody personally consider these anything other than multicolor cards? If not, they'll be classified in the multicolor section. Are there other cards that there's potentially consensus on alternative categorizations?
I dont get, why you guys rate Merfolk Looter/Thought Courier this high.
In my Tier1 Cube I dont want looting at all, because the density of useful spells is so high, you dont want to discard anything.
In my Tier2 Cube, looting is great, because of graveyard and madness synergies. Still I prefer Cephalid Looter/Reckless Scholar because theyre also useful on attack, when you dont want to loot. The 1/1s were awful.
It's not about density of useful spells; I think most people here would claim a high density of useful cards in their cubes, as long as people draft properly. Just because a card is useful generally doesn't mean you always want that card all the time; in fact, most cards you really want at specific points in a game (ex: you probably don't want to have a six drop in your opening hand, nor do you want to start topdecking 2/1s on turn 7). That's where card selection and looting come in - they allow you to shape your hand much more easily and play much more flexibly than your opponent.
As to why specifically the 2 CMC looters, I've only very rarely been in situations where attacking with a looter (or even blocking with 2 power instead of 1) would have changed the game, but I've been in far more situations where a turn 2 looter helped set up really important turn 4 plays.
Neither in, nor against those decks you have the time to put a CC2 1/1 into play which starts digging for something a turn later.
In my slower tier2 meta, this is ok, but you dont want a useless creature (card disadvantage) there either. If you just want to manipulate, Id rather use (rate) a (cantripping) spell then (Ponder, Preordain, Impulse).
The 2/1 are way better, because they can also attack, besides their main purpose is to activate synergies and fill the grave for Stitched Drake stuff
Hm, I guess your blue section is significantly different than mine. I try to make blue primarily a control color with tempo as a secondary theme. And in control and most tempo-control decks, a repeatable card selection engine wins games. Of course if you're focusing on a faster "spells matter" archetype or something, it makes sense that looters aren't necessarily the highest priorities.
Well, my argument is not against looter per se, but against the 1/1s. After looting a few times theyre pretty dead. In a control shell you should be able to keep board control via looters and then want to close the game. 1/1s not very good for that. In a slower meta, there is no big difference CC3 over CC2
I don't know, I tend to treat looters more like enchantments that can chump block once if they really need to, but otherwise, you loot with them everytime, play card draw spells so you can continue to fill up your hand to loot more, and use your card advantage to get the higher-impact spells you need to stabilize. Having an extra power on your looter only seems to marginally increase the chance that it manages to kill something small if it blocks. And I'd usually much rather spend 2 mana than 3 mana for a looter in order to loot earlier or keep more mana up.
EDIT: Maybe we should move this discussion into the main thread, since it's gotten into some more general topics about how to design blue sections.
well, again we are at that point, where I am: "WTF, how are those dudes playing at all?"
If you mana screw early game, run more lands. If you flood, pay CC3 with no problems. If you rely on a fragile 1/1 to make your starting hand playable, mulligan. (besides you rate a lot of 1-damage spells as bad, like Geistflame, but thats another story Al)
Also Looters just dig 1 card deep, as said the blue cantrips are infinte better early game. (and they cost CC1, so they fit your manaelf comparsion much better).
Looters are midgame cards, to filter away your additional lands or 1-drops/early game cards
And if you really want to loot every turn, play more qualitiy.
Results for blue are up in the results thread. For anyone who may have missed voting on blue cards, you can still submit votes for blue cards (as well as white cards, or any section, really) until the entire project is done in this thread, and I'll try my best to update results as needed.
Well, my argument is not against looter per se, but against the 1/1s.
Undertaker is a 1/1. I'm not sure I understand your argument. It seems like regardless of how powerful an effect is, if it's on a 1/1 it's just not good enough. The looters are all great cards, and simply adding more lands to your deck does not stop flood or screw. It may help, sure, but having cards that help you while you're in the game is very powerful. You also seem to feel like looters get worse later, when they actually get better, way better. When your deck no longer wants to draw lands, looters help make sure that never happens. I can't say how many times looters have dug me to a fireball or a card i need to win the game. What other cards can draw you ten cards for two mana?
Well, my argument is not against looter per se, but against the 1/1s.
Undertaker is a 1/1. I'm not sure I understand your argument. It seems like regardless of how powerful an effect is, if it's on a 1/1 it's just not good enough. The looters are all great cards, and simply adding more lands to your deck does not stop flood or screw. It may help, sure, but having cards that help you while you're in the game is very powerful. You also seem to feel like looters get worse later, when they actually get better, way better. When your deck no longer wants to draw lands, looters help make sure that never happens. I can't say how many times looters have dug me to a fireball or a card i need to win the game. What other cards can draw you ten cards for two mana?
Well, whether your cubemeta plays like limited or constructed depends on your cube and the deckbuilding skill of your players. With a low curve and high impact spells, its much closer to constructed. (*hint* stop playing bad cards like looters, if you want a constructed feeling)
So we have two parallel discussions here.
Question A: Whats better to smoothen your draw? Looter or Cantrips.
My opinion:
If youre aiming for a fast meta and highest powerlevel, the cantrips are much better. They´re cheaper, faster, replace itself, dig deeper. Usually no filler cards are played, so no need to loot that often. If your meta is slower, theyre good to go.
(Ive never seen a looter in constructed btw)
Question B: Your meta is slow enough for Looters, which ones are better CC2 1/1 or CC3 2/1
My opinion:
I say the 2/1 are better, because they can actually win the game, after you sculped a good hand and established board control
Capsize and Disturbed Burial are indeed just ok in my meta and only useful in very slow controldecks.
B
I still play the 1/1 looters in my Tier2 cube (for now), but most of the time I rather have the 2/1, because as said theyre midgame supporters to get rid of useless spells or lands. Usually I loot maybe 3 times, find the removal I want and start attacking.
Im considering the 1/2 tapper over the 1/1 tapper, when I got more time for playtesting. Since I balance my removal around the x/1 creatures in the cube, the tappers might get way to fragile.
and those are only my Tier2 spells. We already had that toughness 1 discussion somewhere else.
Youre right about the VMA-Meta, its much closer to constructed/cubemeta. Exept, the powerlevel in paupercubes can be even higher.
Id say my Tier2 cube is much closer to vma/your cube/most cubes around here. But this thread was a ranking about the 20 most powerful cards, right?
There are 56 blue cards in my T1, which I all rate higher for pauper limited.
Sprite and Delver are quite ok, only the Cloud is useless. Both are in my T1, while i run no looter there. I probalby wouldnt even run them (the 1/1s) in my T2, if they wouldnt fit more roles than just looting.
My opinon on the ranked cards I wouldnt even consider Tier1 material
1 Mulldrifter
2 Man-o'-War
3 Mist Raven CC4 and UU kills it for me, 2/2 are unimpressive stats
4 Capsize check, although it should ranked way lower. Creatures got way more efficient
5 Looter il-Kor if you dont want to loot, this guy cant even attack
6 Errant Ephemeron
7 Deep Analysis
8 Stitched Drake only playable with looters, otherwise dead in your hand a lot of the time, cant be played on curve. CC UU sucks, too
9 Narcolepsy check, but almost EVERY counter (CC2) is better than this
10 Ray of Command
11 Ninja of the Deep Hours
12 Exclude
12 Mana Leak
14 Thought Courier see above discussion
15 Shimmering Glasskite while close to Tier1, a lot worse than other creatures Illusionary Forces
16 Calcite Snapper
16 Flood only useful in slowish metas, otherwise its Narcolepsy with upkeep cost of UU
18 Aether Adept UU is bad
19 Thalakos Scout
20 Miscalculation
I'm not impressed by your deck building skills if games end on turn 6 at the latest. That shows me people don't know how to build slower decks and use their removal incorrectly. Very loose play leads to short games, not good deck building.
How about we all agree that different people have different types of cubes and not make jabs at relative player skill? Humphrey's said that he wants his cube decks to try to match constructed decks (to the extent possible given a pauper restriction). A lot of people (me included) want their cube decks to emphasize core limited playstyles or whatnot, but that doesn't mean that's the only way to make a pauper cube. Different goals in cubes lead to different card evaluations. For instance, I don't even play Thalakos Scout, but it still made the top 20 list.
Thalakos Scout is highly underrated, while also a better bin for your excessive lands
I agree, not everybody should build the cube I do, but when it comes to a more or less objective rating, we shouldnt rate pet cards. Otherwise you could just copy the most played common cards from cubetutor or look at the average cube.
I mean, seriously. How can Narcolepsy get Rank9, while Counterspell isnt even on the list..
well, its just a semi-removal. It can still use its abilities, is weak to bounce, colorprotection and disenchant effects. Although, I must admit its rarely an issue. Anyway I still think, that counters are better.
I have found sift to be a lot better than compulsive research. They are the same except for 1 more mana you can pitch whatever you like, and it's worth it. There are times when you don't want to picth a land, and there are times when you want to pitch a ramp spell or nonland mana source. You're only casting these spells early game if you're desperate, and you probably don't want to discard lands on turn 3 or 4, so the extra mana hardly matters on cards that you are planning on playing late game. I suppose compulsive is better if you keep a shaky hand and you need to dig for lands, just for being 1 mana cheaper, though you'll have to pitch 2 spells instead of 1. But sift is better at their main job, card advantage.
Obviously foresee is better than sift, and I put it in my #2 slot.
Deep analysis is good for sure, but I found the life cost to be too steep against aggro decks. Until you have stabilized, it's 3U sorcery speed draw 2, which is not good. And even if you have stabilized somewhat, paying 3 life can put you back in range to be killed by haste creatures and/or burn. Against decks that aren't super fast, it is a great card, but sift and foresee are at their best in all matchups.
Divination is really good because it helps you hit land drops early game or gives you gas late game.
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If you only evaluate them for the late game then why would you choose compulsive research over sift?
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2 Man-o'-War
3 Mist Raven
4 Looter il-Kor
5 Errant Ephemeron
6 Capsize
7 Stitched Drake
8 Ray of Command
9 Deep Analysis
10 Ninja of the Deep Hours
11 Thalakos Scout
12 Shimmering Glasskite
13 Daze
14 Mana Leak
15 Merfolk Looter
16 Narcolepsy
17 Calcite Snapper
18 Exclude
19 Flood
20 Foresee
02 Errant Ephemeron
03 Man-o'-War
04 Mist Raven
05 Flood
06 Narcolepsy
07 Capsize
08 Looter il-Kor
09 Thought Courier
10 Mana Leak
11 Miscalculation
12 Stitched Drake
13 Aether Adept
14 Shimmering Glasskite
15 Calcite Snapper
16 Waterfront Bouncer
17 Exclude
18 Counterspell
19 Withdraw
20 Archaeomancer
I also think that Aether Adept and Man-o'-War aren't functional reprints, either by definition or in terms of play - the additional blue mana can make a big difference. For people who listed them as functional reprints, unless you want me to do something else, I'll rank them separately (but equally), and move the rest of your rankings down accordingly to accommodate the additional card.
Regarding color categorization for certain mono vs. multi-colored cards, I think metalevolence does have a point in some cases. So how about this - if everyone voting agrees on an exception to EDH rules in a particular case (e.g. for something like Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl), then we'll categorize it differently. I think the two big problem cards are Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl. Does anybody personally consider these anything other than multicolor cards? If not, they'll be classified in the multicolor section. Are there other cards that there's potentially consensus on alternative categorizations?
In my Tier1 Cube I dont want looting at all, because the density of useful spells is so high, you dont want to discard anything.
In my Tier2 Cube, looting is great, because of graveyard and madness synergies. Still I prefer Cephalid Looter/Reckless Scholar because theyre also useful on attack, when you dont want to loot. The 1/1s were awful.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
As to why specifically the 2 CMC looters, I've only very rarely been in situations where attacking with a looter (or even blocking with 2 power instead of 1) would have changed the game, but I've been in far more situations where a turn 2 looter helped set up really important turn 4 plays.
1x Delver of Secrets
1x Kiln Fiend
1x Spellstutter Sprite
1x Nivix Cyclops
1x Pestermite
1x Suq'Ata Lancer
1x Wee Dragonauts
1x Illusionary Forces
1x Izzet Chronarch
1x Daze
1x Gush
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Incinerate
1x Lightning Strike
1x Mana Leak
1x Memory Lapse
1x Snap
1x Withdraw
1x Repulse
1x Ray of Command
1x Traumatic Visions
1x Repeal
1x Syncopate
1x Distortion Strike
1x Preordain
Land
1x Izzet Boilerworks
9x Island
5x Mountain
1 Jungle Lion
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Phantasmal Bear
1 Frilled Oculus
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Ambush Viper
1 Thalakos Scout
1 Spiketail Drakeling
1 Jolrael's Centaur
1 Simian Grunts
1 Hungry Spriggan
1 Pestermite
1 Man-o'-War
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Villagers of Estwald
1 Wild Leotau
//Spells
1 Daze
1 Gush
1 Mana Leak
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Miscalculation
1 Repulse
1 Syncopate
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Simic Guildgate
7 Island
7 Forest
Neither in, nor against those decks you have the time to put a CC2 1/1 into play which starts digging for something a turn later.
In my slower tier2 meta, this is ok, but you dont want a useless creature (card disadvantage) there either. If you just want to manipulate, Id rather use (rate) a (cantripping) spell then (Ponder, Preordain, Impulse).
The 2/1 are way better, because they can also attack, besides their main purpose is to activate synergies and fill the grave for Stitched Drake stuff
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Tier2 UR reference
1x Razorfin Hunter
1x Skirk Marauder
1x Æther Adept
1x Reckless Scholar
1x Shaper Parasite
1x Stealer of Secrets
1x Ghost Ship
1x Shimmering Glasskite
1x Steamcore Weird
1x Faerie Invaders
1x Fire Elemental
1x Spire Golem
Artifact
1x Izzet Signet
Instant
1x Piracy Charm
1x Shock
1x Into the Roil
1x Remove Soul
1x Barbed Lightning
1x Convolute
1x Lightning Blast
1x Magma Burst
1x Broken Ambitions
1x Rock Slide
1x Lava Burst
Land
10x Island
6x Mountain
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
EDIT: Maybe we should move this discussion into the main thread, since it's gotten into some more general topics about how to design blue sections.
If you mana screw early game, run more lands. If you flood, pay CC3 with no problems. If you rely on a fragile 1/1 to make your starting hand playable, mulligan. (besides you rate a lot of 1-damage spells as bad, like Geistflame, but thats another story Al)
Also Looters just dig 1 card deep, as said the blue cantrips are infinte better early game. (and they cost CC1, so they fit your manaelf comparsion much better).
Looters are midgame cards, to filter away your additional lands or 1-drops/early game cards
And if you really want to loot every turn, play more qualitiy.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Let's start voting for the top 20 black cards!
Undertaker is a 1/1. I'm not sure I understand your argument. It seems like regardless of how powerful an effect is, if it's on a 1/1 it's just not good enough. The looters are all great cards, and simply adding more lands to your deck does not stop flood or screw. It may help, sure, but having cards that help you while you're in the game is very powerful. You also seem to feel like looters get worse later, when they actually get better, way better. When your deck no longer wants to draw lands, looters help make sure that never happens. I can't say how many times looters have dug me to a fireball or a card i need to win the game. What other cards can draw you ten cards for two mana?
Constructed (Casual) | Pinksleeves |
Constructed (Pauper) | Izzet Fiend | Mono Black | Burn |
Constructed (Standard) | Under Construction |
Constructed (Modern) | Fate Seal |
Constructed (Legacy) | Dream Halls |
Constructed (Vintage) | Not Yet |
Constructed (Commander) | Sliver Overlord | Uril, the Miststalker | Braids, Cabal Minion |
Limited | Alara Block | Time Spiral Block | Innistrad Block | Rise of the Eldrazi |
there is no 2/1 Undertaker for 3 out there.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
So we have two parallel discussions here.
Question A: Whats better to smoothen your draw? Looter or Cantrips.
My opinion:
If youre aiming for a fast meta and highest powerlevel, the cantrips are much better. They´re cheaper, faster, replace itself, dig deeper. Usually no filler cards are played, so no need to loot that often. If your meta is slower, theyre good to go.
(Ive never seen a looter in constructed btw)
Question B: Your meta is slow enough for Looters, which ones are better CC2 1/1 or CC3 2/1
My opinion:
I say the 2/1 are better, because they can actually win the game, after you sculped a good hand and established board control
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
No, not every game is decided that quickly, but every card matters. The (1/1) Looters are card disadvantage, fragile and way too slow. Midrange decks better run real card draw creatures, like Fathom Seer,Sea Gate Oracle,Ninja of the Deep Hours,Mulldrifter or spells Compulsive Research,Oona's Grace,Deep Analysis which I would all rate higher than the looters.
Capsize and Disturbed Burial are indeed just ok in my meta and only useful in very slow controldecks.
B
I still play the 1/1 looters in my Tier2 cube (for now), but most of the time I rather have the 2/1, because as said theyre midgame supporters to get rid of useless spells or lands. Usually I loot maybe 3 times, find the removal I want and start attacking.
Im considering the 1/2 tapper over the 1/1 tapper, when I got more time for playtesting. Since I balance my removal around the x/1 creatures in the cube, the tappers might get way to fragile.
- Electrickery
- Geistflame
- Rock Slide
- Wrap in Flames
and those are only my Tier2 spells. We already had that toughness 1 discussion somewhere else.Youre right about the VMA-Meta, its much closer to constructed/cubemeta. Exept, the powerlevel in paupercubes can be even higher.
Id say my Tier2 cube is much closer to vma/your cube/most cubes around here. But this thread was a ranking about the 20 most powerful cards, right?
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
There are 56 blue cards in my T1, which I all rate higher for pauper limited.
Sprite and Delver are quite ok, only the Cloud is useless. Both are in my T1, while i run no looter there. I probalby wouldnt even run them (the 1/1s) in my T2, if they wouldnt fit more roles than just looting.
My opinon on the ranked cards I wouldnt even consider Tier1 material
1 Mulldrifter
2 Man-o'-War
3 Mist Raven CC4 and UU kills it for me, 2/2 are unimpressive stats
4 Capsize check, although it should ranked way lower. Creatures got way more efficient
5 Looter il-Kor if you dont want to loot, this guy cant even attack
6 Errant Ephemeron
7 Deep Analysis
8 Stitched Drake only playable with looters, otherwise dead in your hand a lot of the time, cant be played on curve. CC UU sucks, too
9 Narcolepsy check, but almost EVERY counter (CC2) is better than this
10 Ray of Command
11 Ninja of the Deep Hours
12 Exclude
12 Mana Leak
14 Thought Courier see above discussion
15 Shimmering Glasskite while close to Tier1, a lot worse than other creatures Illusionary Forces
16 Calcite Snapper
16 Flood only useful in slowish metas, otherwise its Narcolepsy with upkeep cost of UU
18 Aether Adept UU is bad
19 Thalakos Scout
20 Miscalculation
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
The guys in my playgroup are long time semi-professional players, were all playing magic at least 15years. The most successful active player is David Kaufmann (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/292, https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlARYZzRiAuvrlIfaUsP5tn26Kk3Q4msE)
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I agree, not everybody should build the cube I do, but when it comes to a more or less objective rating, we shouldnt rate pet cards. Otherwise you could just copy the most played common cards from cubetutor or look at the average cube.
I mean, seriously. How can Narcolepsy get Rank9, while Counterspell isnt even on the list..
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Even fckin Flood made it over Counterspell...
Blue isnt a color for creature removal and has its strength elsewhere, yet a blue "removal" made it on the list. Sounds strange? Yes it is.
Same with Stitched Drake. Solid creature? Sometimes. Top10 of the best common blue creatures? No way, dudes.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
But, what color to rate next? Black I guess?
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
02 Hymn to Tourach
03 Crypt Rats
04 Disturbed Burial
05 Twisted Abomination
06 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
07 Ashes to Ashes
08 Death Denied
09 Doom Blade
10 Terror
11 Vendetta
12 Victim of Night
13 Evincar's Justice
14 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
15 Faceless Butcher
16 Perilous Shadow
17 Liliana's Specter
18 Chittering Rats
19 Phyrexian Rager
20 Mark of the Vampire
02 Disturbed Burial
03 Crypt Rats
04 Grim Harvest
05 Hymn to Tourach
06 Twisted Abomination
07 Read the Bones
08 Crippling Fatigue
09 Ashes to Ashes
10 Liliana's Specter
11 Chittering Rats
12 Dauthi Horror
13 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
14 Undertaker
15 Dauthi Marauder
16 Doom Blade
17 Snuff Out
18 Grey Merchant of Asphodel
19 Ravenous Skirge
20 Darkling Stalker
02 terror
03 death denied
04 ashes to ashes
05 gray merchant of asphodel
06 hymn to tourach
07 chittering rats
08 vampire lacerator
09 carnophage
10 wretched anurid
11 snuff out
12 strangling soot
13 twisted abomination
14 crippling blight
15 urborg uprising
16 mark of the vampire
17 warren pilferers
18 phyrexian rager
19 stab wound
20 dead reveler
cards I thought about: corrupted zendikon, predatory nightstalker, pestilence, dauthi horror, ichor slick, disturbed burial, dauthi marauder
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
Click here and check out my Formerly Pauper Cube.
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