Ok, so we might as well have these discussions in one place.
We have two main items on the table for now.
Cogwork Librarian
And
Alternate pack sizes/amounts
-
*Cogwork Librarian
This effect is amazing. I have been able to slim pack sizes down in my 2-man drafts with this guy because it gives you 2 or 3 more cards that you want to have in your deck, in your deck, for every deck. I seriously recommend using more than one because the effect is so profound. I've been using 2 in my 2-man drafts (each player starts with a 7 card pack to pick from and one of those cards is a librarian). Rather than have them show up randomly in the draft, I think it's better to force the librarian in the opening packs.
The card itself is utterly unplayable (in peasant, at least) so I don't even count it as a card. If someone has one in their possession at the end of the draft, either it counts as dead (since the card is dead anyway) or we swap it out for a random card. Haven't yet decided which is better. Either way, librarian is something to test with creativity.
-
*Alternate pack numbers
I do not approve of doing 3 packs of 15, drafting traditionally and ending up with 45 card cardpools: if it can be helped.
The entire point of drafting is to make decisions, and very often with this pack structure there is only one card in a pack for you or a meager decision between card A and B. I harp on Hearthstone's "drafting" mode because you only ever get to choose between 3 cards, but at least you could theoretically play all three of those cards. In magic, if you get a pack of 9 cards in it and you're trying to play 2 color aggro you may only have 3 cards in your colors there, one or two of which may be unplayable in your style of deck. It's an illusion of choice where answers are far more obvious than you'd like to think. Especially when you're midway through pack 2 and you can't change colors.
When I did my last reasonably sized pod (6 people) we did 3 17 card packs and threw away the last 4 cards. We throw away piles because lucking into cards with no decision making involved is bad form.
We all had crazy large piles of playables (one player actually had a pile of all cards in his scheme!). On my cubetutor I recommend doing 2 packs that are 19 cards each with 9 bots, and the decks that come out are extremely streamlined; far better than you see in a 45 card draft. Choice is king and I don't know why these ideas haven't caught on sooner.
The next time I do a draft (same 6 people), I plan on doing an 19 card pack for pack one and a 23 card pack for pack 2 (2 packs only). I have the sizes offset from each other because in pack two your colors are set and so you need more cards to have an array of choices. Throwing away the last 4 cards from each pack, this gives you a 34 card pool. You can expect at most to have 27 cards going into the deck, which gives you 7 picks to waste. I don't want there to be automatic choices. We are cubers.
Great to hear success with Cogwork Librarians! Not surprised though, I expected them to do great things.
And you're definitely right: choice is king. There are so many auto-pilot packs in a standard draft that it's really goofy, especially when you're playing with seasoned veterans. I can see how it might be overwhelming for newer players, though. More cards means more reading.
I'll post about the numerous draft formats I've played around with next time.
I've had some good experiences with "Tenchester": 36 packs of 10, each person gets one pick per pack (rotating pick order), the rest are thrown away. Really good for 4 people, but should work for 3-6. You end up seeing most/all of the cube so it makes drafting archetypes easier.
drafting 70 cards each would allow me to do a 4-man with my cube which would be pretty great. I sent my playgroup the link to that article and they are all in to try it the next time we get together.
I've had some good experiences with "Tenchester": 36 packs of 10, each person gets one pick per pack (rotating pick order), the rest are thrown away. Really good for 4 people, but should work for 3-6. You end up seeing most/all of the cube so it makes drafting archetypes easier.
This seems like a really great way to see the whole cube and make tough choices.
I was looking for ways to draft with four people and the most interesting one I found was just use 5 packs of 9, switching direction with each pack. I think it really only works with four people though. I haven't tried it so I'm hoping someone else will and let me know if it's close to a real 8 person draft experience.
We do:
You get a 90 card sealed pool each (plus unlimited basic lands - we've not used the custom lands from the article).
Each player has "Pay 3 life: Shuffle your graveyard into your library. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery." (NB: this is slightly tweaked from the version in the article which lets you do it at instant speed.)
I'm really interested in this format, probably going to play it tonight! I just had some random thoughts:
I'm not sure why they made the shuffle instant speed, it seems pretty broken at instant. The sorcery speed thing totally makes sense, I'm even for it being a main phase special action so it doesn't interact in any way with how a cubes graveyard hate system works.
Without using the custom lands, how do things like Crusher or just high CMC cards work? I think Brass Burnwillows is too powerful/not aggro friendly enough for pauper, but Evolved Wilds seems fine. I think I'm going to try two Evolved wilds two City of Brass.
Also, I noticed a lot of 10 card 5 land examples(in the article), but the only real difference between 4 and 5 is a ~12% chance of drawing a second land on turn two. I think really aggressive decks could get away with 4 lands.
As for alternative formats in general, We do: Winston, Winchester, Solomon, Grid and Quilt.
Grid is a personal favorite, and I had a lot of fun with quilting as well. Winston can be pretty awkward for signalling, so it tends to be my least favorite.
Cogwork Librarian is an absolute house, especially early. He's both fun, powerful and has a very visible effect on pools.
I don't think you can beat 8(3x14) for people/packs personally.
In micro-sealed, you cast high-CMC effects via cards that fetch lands, as you can fetch lands from OUTSIDE the game. Ie, if you play Kodama's Reach, you can grab any two basic lands, not just ones in your deck, so it actually lets you increase the number of lands you play. Not only that, you can shuffle those effects back into your deck to get them over and over again. Otherwise, if you have none of those effects, you're necessarily restricted to the number of lands you put in your deck.
I'd definitely want to try the format out. It seems cool.
Why do you prefer signalling over a larger array of choices?
The most defining thing about a draft to me is reading and signaling your neighbors...it has a great communal dynamic. It is less focused on deckbuilding. The less people you have in a traditional draft the clearer everything is and less interesting. I'd say less than 6 feels too much like an autopilot draft for my tastes and I would rather use a different setup. We've enjoyed quilting for 4 man. It's a slow process, but a lot of fun.
That's why I like having such a large selection. You can't go autopilot if you have 6 playables in front of you. You do still have to weigh what wheels too.
Figuring out what colors are open enough is not a particularly difficult task.
Why do you prefer signalling over a larger array of choices?
I want clear signals, and a semi-interactive draft experience. While there are less choices overall, in a signal driven format you also get to have more control over your neighbors deck/pool. In your average 45 my goal is to have ~25 main deck cards ~ 5 sideboard cards and ~10 "hated" cards. I'm also a variance fan, so that may play into things somewhere.
In micro-sealed, you cast high-CMC effects via cards that fetch lands, as you can fetch lands from OUTSIDE the game. Ie, if you play Kodama's Reach, you can grab any two basic lands, not just ones in your deck, so it actually lets you increase the number of lands you play. Not only that, you can shuffle those effects back into your deck to get them over and over again. Otherwise, if you have none of those effects, you're necessarily restricted to the number of lands you put in your deck.
I meant when you play without those lands. Such as majikian was suggesting. Not all pools have access to fetching.
We played some microsealed last night, and it was a total blast! We made the shuffle a turn based main phase action, to keep turns streamlined(and for power/interaction reasons). I think it could probably cost 2 life instead of 3. We used the fetch land, and Mana Confluence. The life loss wasn't too big of a downside, and did help keep the games quick. We're gonna try a few more times with some different lands and such, experiment with the format a little. I also think that just playing 4x "Evolved wilds" would be fine, and I like how it interacts with the shuffle. If people are really interested, I think it would benefit from a thread, we're working on a couple nonbasics to try in the other slot.
The other format that really interests me is Backdrafting.
If you have 10 hated cards in a traditional draft pool, your draft went extremely well or extremely badly. You have to have your ~23, and so many picks are just wastes of time.
Microsealed sounds awesome, I'm thinking of trying it with just the "evolved wilds". One thing I can't figure out from the article though... is each player supposed to get 2 "brass burnwillows" and 2 "evolved wilds"? That seems like a lot of ridiculously good land (that doesn't retire) for a 15 card deck.
Well, both cards have downsides that are pretty strong in the format. At least, at first look. Life matters more when you can use it to draw nonland cards guaranteed and forcing yourself to draw lands is a downside for the other land.
They may not be perfectly balanced, but at least they tried.
The other format that really interests me is Backdrafting.
I don't think backdrafting with a cube would be fun. I backdrafted a couple of times with M11 and the thing that makes it fun is the fact that a lot of cards in a booster are totally unplayable (like Angel's Feather or Haunting Echoes). The trick was to first draft all completely unplayable cards and then grab all the "decent" cards in as many different colors as you could. And if you did end up with a last pick bomb like Baneslayer Angel you would just not pick a single other remotely playable card from the same color.
Ok, so we might as well have these discussions in one place.
We have two main items on the table for now.
Cogwork Librarian
And
Alternate pack sizes/amounts
-
*Cogwork Librarian
This effect is amazing. I have been able to slim pack sizes down in my 2-man drafts with this guy because it gives you 2 or 3 more cards that you want to have in your deck, in your deck, for every deck. I seriously recommend using more than one because the effect is so profound. I've been using 2 in my 2-man drafts (each player starts with a 7 card pack to pick from and one of those cards is a librarian). Rather than have them show up randomly in the draft, I think it's better to force the librarian in the opening packs.
The card itself is utterly unplayable (in peasant, at least) so I don't even count it as a card. If someone has one in their possession at the end of the draft, either it counts as dead (since the card is dead anyway) or we swap it out for a random card. Haven't yet decided which is better. Either way, librarian is something to test with creativity.
-
*Alternate pack numbers
I do not approve of doing 3 packs of 15, drafting traditionally and ending up with 45 card cardpools: if it can be helped.
The entire point of drafting is to make decisions, and very often with this pack structure there is only one card in a pack for you or a meager decision between card A and B. I harp on Hearthstone's "drafting" mode because you only ever get to choose between 3 cards, but at least you could theoretically play all three of those cards. In magic, if you get a pack of 9 cards in it and you're trying to play 2 color aggro you may only have 3 cards in your colors there, one or two of which may be unplayable in your style of deck. It's an illusion of choice where answers are far more obvious than you'd like to think. Especially when you're midway through pack 2 and you can't change colors.
When I did my last reasonably sized pod (6 people) we did 3 17 card packs and threw away the last 4 cards. We throw away piles because lucking into cards with no decision making involved is bad form.
We all had crazy large piles of playables (one player actually had a pile of all cards in his scheme!). On my cubetutor I recommend doing 2 packs that are 19 cards each with 9 bots, and the decks that come out are extremely streamlined; far better than you see in a 45 card draft. Choice is king and I don't know why these ideas haven't caught on sooner.
The next time I do a draft (same 6 people), I plan on doing an 19 card pack for pack one and a 23 card pack for pack 2 (2 packs only). I have the sizes offset from each other because in pack two your colors are set and so you need more cards to have an array of choices. Throwing away the last 4 cards from each pack, this gives you a 34 card pool. You can expect at most to have 27 cards going into the deck, which gives you 7 picks to waste. I don't want there to be automatic choices. We are cubers.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
And you're definitely right: choice is king. There are so many auto-pilot packs in a standard draft that it's really goofy, especially when you're playing with seasoned veterans. I can see how it might be overwhelming for newer players, though. More cards means more reading.
I'll post about the numerous draft formats I've played around with next time.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Formerly hedgehogger
also the genjus are sick in this format, as are all exiling effects...i just did a sealed pool to see what 15 card decks i could come up with:
1 leafcrown dryad
1 nest invader
1 bloodbraid elf
1 flametongue kavu
1 bonesplitter
1 arc lightning
1 loxodon warhammer
3 mountain
1 young pyromancer
1 burst lightning
1 lightning bolt
1 fire/ice
1 arc trail
1 incinerate
1 magma jet
1 ghitu encampment
5 mountain
1 nezumi graverobber
1 kitchen finks
1 calciderm
1 path to exile
1 timely reinforcements
1 shrine of loyal legions
1 oblivion ring
3 plains
2 swamp
not sure if any of these are that good, but this seems like a really interesting format!
thanks for starting this thread! i don't have much experience with alternative formats but i'm always interested in them.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
You can do the same thing with a draft and just draft like 70 cards each.
You'd be drafting for different decks all at once .
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
This seems like a really great way to see the whole cube and make tough choices.
I was looking for ways to draft with four people and the most interesting one I found was just use 5 packs of 9, switching direction with each pack. I think it really only works with four people though. I haven't tried it so I'm hoping someone else will and let me know if it's close to a real 8 person draft experience.
Majik, you have a bigger playgroup than I. Try 2 packs of 20 for me? I'm curious to see it.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I'm really interested in this format, probably going to play it tonight! I just had some random thoughts:
I'm not sure why they made the shuffle instant speed, it seems pretty broken at instant. The sorcery speed thing totally makes sense, I'm even for it being a main phase special action so it doesn't interact in any way with how a cubes graveyard hate system works.
Without using the custom lands, how do things like Crusher or just high CMC cards work? I think Brass Burnwillows is too powerful/not aggro friendly enough for pauper, but Evolved Wilds seems fine. I think I'm going to try two Evolved wilds two City of Brass.
Also, I noticed a lot of 10 card 5 land examples(in the article), but the only real difference between 4 and 5 is a ~12% chance of drawing a second land on turn two. I think really aggressive decks could get away with 4 lands.
As for alternative formats in general, We do: Winston, Winchester, Solomon, Grid and Quilt.
Grid is a personal favorite, and I had a lot of fun with quilting as well. Winston can be pretty awkward for signalling, so it tends to be my least favorite.
Cogwork Librarian is an absolute house, especially early. He's both fun, powerful and has a very visible effect on pools.
I don't think you can beat 8(3x14) for people/packs personally.
Constructed (Casual) | Pinksleeves |
Constructed (Pauper) | Izzet Fiend | Mono Black | Burn |
Constructed (Standard) | Under Construction |
Constructed (Modern) | Fate Seal |
Constructed (Legacy) | Dream Halls |
Constructed (Vintage) | Not Yet |
Constructed (Commander) | Sliver Overlord | Uril, the Miststalker | Braids, Cabal Minion |
Limited | Alara Block | Time Spiral Block | Innistrad Block | Rise of the Eldrazi |
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I'd definitely want to try the format out. It seems cool.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
The most defining thing about a draft to me is reading and signaling your neighbors...it has a great communal dynamic. It is less focused on deckbuilding. The less people you have in a traditional draft the clearer everything is and less interesting. I'd say less than 6 feels too much like an autopilot draft for my tastes and I would rather use a different setup. We've enjoyed quilting for 4 man. It's a slow process, but a lot of fun.
Figuring out what colors are open enough is not a particularly difficult task.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I want clear signals, and a semi-interactive draft experience. While there are less choices overall, in a signal driven format you also get to have more control over your neighbors deck/pool. In your average 45 my goal is to have ~25 main deck cards ~ 5 sideboard cards and ~10 "hated" cards. I'm also a variance fan, so that may play into things somewhere.
I meant when you play without those lands. Such as majikian was suggesting. Not all pools have access to fetching.
We played some microsealed last night, and it was a total blast! We made the shuffle a turn based main phase action, to keep turns streamlined(and for power/interaction reasons). I think it could probably cost 2 life instead of 3. We used the fetch land, and Mana Confluence. The life loss wasn't too big of a downside, and did help keep the games quick. We're gonna try a few more times with some different lands and such, experiment with the format a little. I also think that just playing 4x "Evolved wilds" would be fine, and I like how it interacts with the shuffle. If people are really interested, I think it would benefit from a thread, we're working on a couple nonbasics to try in the other slot.
The other format that really interests me is Backdrafting.
Constructed (Casual) | Pinksleeves |
Constructed (Pauper) | Izzet Fiend | Mono Black | Burn |
Constructed (Standard) | Under Construction |
Constructed (Modern) | Fate Seal |
Constructed (Legacy) | Dream Halls |
Constructed (Vintage) | Not Yet |
Constructed (Commander) | Sliver Overlord | Uril, the Miststalker | Braids, Cabal Minion |
Limited | Alara Block | Time Spiral Block | Innistrad Block | Rise of the Eldrazi |
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
They may not be perfectly balanced, but at least they tried.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I don't think backdrafting with a cube would be fun. I backdrafted a couple of times with M11 and the thing that makes it fun is the fact that a lot of cards in a booster are totally unplayable (like Angel's Feather or Haunting Echoes). The trick was to first draft all completely unplayable cards and then grab all the "decent" cards in as many different colors as you could. And if you did end up with a last pick bomb like Baneslayer Angel you would just not pick a single other remotely playable card from the same color.
My C/Ube on Cube Cobra