I was just running through a bunch of counter spells and was wondering why certain ones aren't being ran as much as others.
Arcane Denial 3/5
This card counters but lets your opponent draw 2 cards. I am skeptical, but I think it's worth mentioning.
Complicate 4/5
I love this card. It's super effective, and when you get to cycle [:
Condescend 4/5
"unless they pay x" and scry 2. I like!
Counterspell 4.5/5
One of the best counterspells available.
Daze 3/5
This seems like a good card to psych your opponent out. Being tapped out doesn't mean you can't counter something.
Deprive 4/5
This is like Daze but without the "unless they pay x" and a more specific cost. I like this one a bit more.
Dismiss 4/5
Cancel + 1 to draw a card. Replaces it's self [:
Forbid 3/5
I don't think i've ever seen it's buyback cost used.. Which would put it as a vanilla Cancel
Dissolve ??? <------
I think this one is a bit more valuable than Forbid, but not for sure. Instead of a Vanilla Cancel, it's a Cancel+scry1.
Force of Will ???
Extremely good counterspell. Why don't we see this one in Peasant?
Force Spike 4/5
I like this in the early game, but kinda flatlines in the middle and late game.
Mana Drain 5/5
Counterspell + more. Is it not in people's cube because of it's $?
Mana Leak 4.5/5
Very good counterspell. Nearly a hardcounter.
Memory Leak 3.5/5
I just like the disruption on this card. Puts them back a turn and a draw.
Miscalculation 3/5
Counterspell or cycle. I like the options, but I feel like it gets cycled way more than used as a counterspell.
Remand ???
People say it's super good for tempo. But I don't know. I've read that it's like timewalking in the early game but.. I don't think it's quite like that at all.
Rethink 3.5/5
I would say that this could almost be a hard counter.
Rewind 2.5-3/5
Just not a fan of this card that much.
Complicate is actually better than Runeboggle because they can't counter it in response (such as with force of will). But I certainly boggled a lot of runes in RGD limited.
That may be a little too much to handle. One could even keep a hand w/ 2 islands, and Mana Drain something on your opponents turn 2 or 3 to play out a 4+ drop.
Idk, im on the fence.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*
If Remand is such a high value counterspell in general, on par with counterspell, then how come it's not in very many cubes that I look at online? Same with Daze.
And what about Dissolve vs Forbid?
Mana Drain
This card costs 200$
This card wouldn't be too strong to be honest. It would be Very strong, but it just makes mana once and not always a whole lot.
It also, by the way, costs 200 dollars.
Mana Leak
Counter unless they pay 3 is basically "counter target spell".
Condescend
Card is very very very good. If you can get it in force spike mode, it's better than mana leak.
Remand
What are you trying to do as a slow deck? Survive to the late game? How do you do that? By hitting as many land drops as possible and not dying to the early onslaught. What does this card do? Both of those things.
Complicate
When you cycle it, you get a cryptic command. For 2U. You get the occasional blowout combined with the safety net of mana leak.
Daze
This card is better in my environment than in many because my blue decks tend to tap out a lot for guys, and this just lets you basically take two turns in a row if you can blank their stabilizer.
Forbid
If you've never seen the buyback used, your players aren't paying attention to when they can ensure victory. If you have 2 cards in hand that you don't need to win, you pitch them and your opponent's next card that they need in order to win is dead.
Miscalculation
It gets cycled about 40% of the time here. That's a lot, but at least it isn't dead. Even mana leak can be dead.
Arcane Denial
This is one of the most controversial cards there is for cu/bes. It's the only true hard counter for 1U. Or even 2U. Sometimes you just need to counter something and don't have the requisite amount of blue, or they have enough mana for a "pay x" clause.
When you can pay for counterspell, or when they can't pay for mana leak, it looks bad. But when you Need to counter something no matter what, this card is the easiest cost and the most concrete for the cost out there. I hated this card for a long time but there's something good about "counter target spell, don't worry about the circumstances".
Also it can counter your own spell and draw you three cards.
Counterspell
Assembling double blue is annoying for turn 2, which is why we prefer 1U counterspells. The last 5 cards are somewhat interchangeable on a rankings list to be honest. There are enough good and bad things about each. Raw efficiency vs Consistency vs Flexibility vs Long-game upside vs Short game upside. It's an environment call.
Memory Lapse
The reason why it's not as good as remand is because you don't get to hit your land drops, and in a bad matchup (vs aggro) you need your draws/lands much more than they need theirs.
Force Spike
I do not like this card. Sometimes it's dead and it is easily dead from turn to turn. Sometimes it counters a curve topper and you win for 1 mana. Sometimes you have to counter something you don't really need to just because "it is probably the last time you can have it online".
Traumatic Visions
You missed this card. I think it can almost be playable, since landcycling is Much better than cycling on a card like this.
Convolute
You missed this card. It is as close to "counter target spell" as you can get for 2U.
Dismiss
Cancel + 1
Oh and it draws a card.
Having 4 mana up is hard.
Dissolve
When you don't put the card on the bottom, you played cancel. You don't want to play cancel unless the potential upside is super huge.
Thoughtbind
It is only better than convolute when you reach five mana and they start playing one drops.
Force of Will
We dont see this in peasant because this isn't constructed and there just aren't enough cards worth 2-for-1ing yourself over.
Rethink
I would say that this could almost be a hard counter. This is not a hard counter once people start paying for things that they aren't tapping out for. For example, this will almost never counter a removal spell.
Deprive
You know what you can't do with this? Play it on turn 2.
Runeboggle
At least this card CAN be good. It just spends most of its time being garb.
This card costs 200$
This card wouldn't be too strong to be honest. It would be Very strong, but it just makes mana once and not always a whole lot.
It also, by the way, costs 200 dollars.
Would you say that you would put it in if it was a reasonable price?
What are you trying to do as a slow deck? Survive to the late game? How do you do that? By hitting as many land drops as possible and not dying to the early onslaught. What does this card do? Both of those things.
Yea but in late game it’s not good I wouldn’t think.
Early game is great, late game is not so great.
This card is better in my environment than in many because my blue decks tend to tap out a lot for guys, and this just lets you basically take two turns in a row if you can blank their stabilizer.
If you've never seen the buyback used, your players aren't paying attention to when they can ensure victory. If you have 2 cards in hand that you don't need to win, you pitch them and your opponent's next card that they need in order to win is dead.
This is one of the most controversial cards there is for cu/bes. It's the only true hard counter for 1U. Or even 2U. Sometimes you just need to counter something and don't have the requisite amount of blue, or they have enough mana for a "pay x" clause.
When you can pay for counterspell, or when they can't pay for mana leak, it looks bad. But when you Need to counter something no matter what, this card is the easiest cost and the most concrete for the cost out there. I hated this card for a long time but there's something good about "counter target spell, don't worry about the circumstances".
Also it can counter your own spell and draw you three cards.
Assembling double blue is annoying for turn 2, which is why we prefer 1U counterspells. The last 4 cards are somewhat interchangeable on a rankings list to be honest. There are enough good and bad things about each.
The reason why it's not as good as remand is because you don't get to hit your land drops, and in a bad matchup (vs aggro) you need your draws much more than they need theirs.
Why don't I get to hit my land drops? I'm not following.
Oooohh I kinda get it..?
I do not like this card. Sometimes it is dead and it is easily dead from turn to turn. Sometimes it counters a curve topper and you win for 1 mana. Sometimes you have to counter something you don't really need to just because "it is probably the last time you can have it online”.
I feel like Force Spike and Remand suffer the same thing. Good in the early game, and sub par in the late game.
When you don't put the card on the bottom, you played cancel. You don't want to play cancel unless the potential upside is super huge.
Well, when you play this card and don’t put the card on the bottom, you've still played Dissolve. I still think this card is higher up than you put it. Yes, putting a card back on top w/out putting it on the bottom doesn’t change the order of your library. But it doesn’t mean I played cancel. With cancel, I have no idea what the top of my library card is. But with the new knowledge of the top card, I can play around it and change my mindset.
I would say that this could almost be a hard counter. This is not a hard counter once people start paying for things that they aren't tapping out for. For example, this will almost never counter a removal spell.
I didn't see any conditional counterspells on here, but Exclude is now one of my favorite counters. It's a great weapon for the control decks to keep pressure off them and for the tempo decks to get opponents from stabilizing with creatures.
That said, it is worth bringing in the Remove Soul brothers? Has to be better than some of these options.
Memory Lapse Why don't I get to hit my land drops? I'm not following.
Oooohh I kinda get it..?
Yeah, it doesn't help you build up your board. Stunting your opponent's growth more is not quite as helpful as getting resources if you're playing to survive.
Force Spike
I feel like Force Spike and Remand suffer the same thing. Good in the early game, and sub par in the late game.
One of those two is probably dead late game. The other still has a chance to waste your opponent's turn. If they play a four drop with only 6 mana sources, for example.
Dismiss
I disagree. I don’t find it hard to have 4 mana open. It’s obviously harder than keeping 3 mana open, but .. not really.
Starting around turn 4, people can start doing 2 things a turn with regularity. If you're on the draw, your opponent may have 5 mana to multitask with.
You cannot, however, really multitask with a four mana spell until pretty far into the game. This means that leaving up dismiss mana is leaving your whole turn up in most cases. You don't always have a jade mage or a pestermite to use the spare mana on. You are more than likely banking on you getting full value out of your 4 mana counterspell, and if your opponent only played 2 mid-level threats, you feel bad.
Dissolve
But with the new knowledge of the top card, I can play around it and change my mindset.
How much playing around do you have to do between your opponent's spell and your next draw step? Most spells get played after combat, and most of the time you can't do anything after countering a spell. For all intents and purposes, you played cancel.
I probably should have this up higher though. Dismiss is worse.
Force of Will
What about those dead blue cards that you dont need?
It has to be a dead *blue* card and I have to be in a scenario where if I don't play this card, I'm going to lose. Since blue cards are at MOST 2/5 of your deck (16 cards), and dead cards are hopefully not a majority of your cards, this alt cost just doesn't seem like it's coming up.
Sarcasm is hard to do online sometimes. Especially mid-debate.
Familiar's ruse is bad because it requires a creature to be used and it requires an etb guy to be playable.
Conditional counterspells should have been on the list, I apologize. Exclude would fit around Daze (either right above or right below in the interchangeable group), and remove soul would fit right around memory lapse. Once you get under counterspell, though, you have to put in real work to justify the card's inclusion. I don't even really like counterspell in my environment anymore and haven't for some time.
I think Counterspell is the best (not including Mana Drain) control-style counter. Just being two mana means so much. Being able to counter their turn-4 play AND being able to Terror/Incinerate/Journal to Nowhere is amazing.
Dissolve is being underrated by some. I think people should be scrying at least 60% of the time. If you aren't seeing something you really want, send it to the bottom. And 60% is real upside over Cancel.
I get that Dismiss has some luster these days, but it's still great in more controlling builds. Even in the '2 mid threats' against Dismiss scenario, you're still sort of trading 2-for-2. Countering anything bigger is amazing.
When does mana leak stop working, say, 90% of the time? around their 6th land drop?
I think being able to play it so long as you have 1 island is more important than being able to counter their turn 5 lightning bolt, or their turn 12 whatever.
I was actually going to throw Rewind in the cube today. I think it has potential in my blue section. I support the blue control decks, so I think the blue decks will get a ton of value from it.
Considering I play 400 cards, i'm kind of counter light. Blue in my cube is the tempo/fliers/CA color, and the counterspells are only there to stop broken things or tempo someone out. I did not want 5+ counters in a deck. Forbid is neat with bouncelands.
i'm honestly really tempted by delay. even if it just buys you time to try to optimise or race their threat it's pretty good value for two mana, and sometimes it 2-for-1s because they have to point removal at their own guy or some other junk. it just seems like a very fun card too.
I was not too big on Arcane Denial until I thought of it as turning their spell into a bad Divination. It gets the job done on turn two until the end of the game.
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Arcane Denial 3/5
This card counters but lets your opponent draw 2 cards. I am skeptical, but I think it's worth mentioning.
Complicate 4/5
I love this card. It's super effective, and when you get to cycle [:
Condescend 4/5
"unless they pay x" and scry 2. I like!
Counterspell 4.5/5
One of the best counterspells available.
Daze 3/5
This seems like a good card to psych your opponent out. Being tapped out doesn't mean you can't counter something.
Deprive 4/5
This is like Daze but without the "unless they pay x" and a more specific cost. I like this one a bit more.
Dismiss 4/5
Cancel + 1 to draw a card. Replaces it's self [:
Forbid 3/5
I don't think i've ever seen it's buyback cost used.. Which would put it as a vanilla Cancel
Dissolve ??? <------
I think this one is a bit more valuable than Forbid, but not for sure. Instead of a Vanilla Cancel, it's a Cancel+scry1.
Force of Will ???
Extremely good counterspell. Why don't we see this one in Peasant?
Force Spike 4/5
I like this in the early game, but kinda flatlines in the middle and late game.
Mana Drain 5/5
Counterspell + more. Is it not in people's cube because of it's $?
Mana Leak 4.5/5
Very good counterspell. Nearly a hardcounter.
Memory Leak 3.5/5
I just like the disruption on this card. Puts them back a turn and a draw.
Miscalculation 3/5
Counterspell or cycle. I like the options, but I feel like it gets cycled way more than used as a counterspell.
Remand ???
People say it's super good for tempo. But I don't know. I've read that it's like timewalking in the early game but.. I don't think it's quite like that at all.
Rethink 3.5/5
I would say that this could almost be a hard counter.
Rewind 2.5-3/5
Just not a fan of this card that much.
Runeboggle 2/5
This is just the cycled version of Complicate
Thoughtbind 3.5-4/5
Just came across this card. 3 cmc to counter 91.666% of my cube. That's pretty efficient.
That's about all the counterspells I could find. What do you guys think?
I don't know if it's too strong to be included. ..
Just a scenario i thought up in my head.
My turn 2, 2 islands untapped. pass.
Their turn 3, lay down the Fervent Cathar and you Mana Drain it. They pass back to me.
My turn 3, drop a land and play a Jetting Glasskite.
That may be a little too much to handle. One could even keep a hand w/ 2 islands, and Mana Drain something on your opponents turn 2 or 3 to play out a 4+ drop.
Idk, im on the fence.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*
If Remand is such a high value counterspell in general, on par with counterspell, then how come it's not in very many cubes that I look at online? Same with Daze.
And what about Dissolve vs Forbid?
In any case, I have ordered the cards from best to worst
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Would you say that you would put it in if it was a reasonable price?
Mana Leak
I agree.
Condescend
Uh huh.
Remand
Yea but in late game it’s not good I wouldn’t think.
Early game is great, late game is not so great.
Complicate
Daze
Forbid
How often do you see it bought back?
Miscalculation
Same here. Probably closer to 50% here with me.
Arcane Denial
Uh huh.
Counterspell
Uh huh.
Memory Lapse
Why don't I get to hit my land drops? I'm not following.Oooohh I kinda get it..?
Force Spike
I feel like Force Spike and Remand suffer the same thing. Good in the early game, and sub par in the late game.
Convolute
Hmm, this one doesn’t strike me as interesting.
Dismiss
I disagree. I don’t find it hard to have 4 mana open. It’s obviously harder than keeping 3 mana open, but .. not really.
Thoughtbind
Uh huh.
Dissolve
Well, when you play this card and don’t put the card on the bottom, you've still played Dissolve. I still think this card is higher up than you put it. Yes, putting a card back on top w/out putting it on the bottom doesn’t change the order of your library. But it doesn’t mean I played cancel. With cancel, I have no idea what the top of my library card is. But with the new knowledge of the top card, I can play around it and change my mindset.
Force of Will
What about those dead blue cards that you dont need?
Rethink
hmm.
Deprive
I’m pretty sure I can tap 2 islands and return a land I control to my hand on turn 2.
Runeboggle
Rewind
That said, it is worth bringing in the Remove Soul brothers? Has to be better than some of these options.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Outlaws of Thunder Junction
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
Immediately
Just like sakura tribe elder isn't good on turn 8. But turn 2 (or in this case, turns 2/3/4/5) is what it is in your deck for.
About 35% of the time. However, in those games, it is the most important card in the gamestate.
Yeah, it doesn't help you build up your board. Stunting your opponent's growth more is not quite as helpful as getting resources if you're playing to survive.
One of those two is probably dead late game. The other still has a chance to waste your opponent's turn. If they play a four drop with only 6 mana sources, for example.
Starting around turn 4, people can start doing 2 things a turn with regularity. If you're on the draw, your opponent may have 5 mana to multitask with.
You cannot, however, really multitask with a four mana spell until pretty far into the game. This means that leaving up dismiss mana is leaving your whole turn up in most cases. You don't always have a jade mage or a pestermite to use the spare mana on. You are more than likely banking on you getting full value out of your 4 mana counterspell, and if your opponent only played 2 mid-level threats, you feel bad.
How much playing around do you have to do between your opponent's spell and your next draw step? Most spells get played after combat, and most of the time you can't do anything after countering a spell. For all intents and purposes, you played cancel.
I probably should have this up higher though. Dismiss is worse.
It has to be a dead *blue* card and I have to be in a scenario where if I don't play this card, I'm going to lose. Since blue cards are at MOST 2/5 of your deck (16 cards), and dead cards are hopefully not a majority of your cards, this alt cost just doesn't seem like it's coming up.
Are... are you trying to win?
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
This looks like a fun card. Recasting ETB cards is fun.
I also like Exclude, but not vanilla Remove Soul.
I was poking fun. It's a crappy counterspell.
Familiar's ruse is bad because it requires a creature to be used and it requires an etb guy to be playable.
Conditional counterspells should have been on the list, I apologize. Exclude would fit around Daze (either right above or right below in the interchangeable group), and remove soul would fit right around memory lapse. Once you get under counterspell, though, you have to put in real work to justify the card's inclusion. I don't even really like counterspell in my environment anymore and haven't for some time.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I think Counterspell is the best (not including Mana Drain) control-style counter. Just being two mana means so much. Being able to counter their turn-4 play AND being able to Terror/Incinerate/Journal to Nowhere is amazing.
Dissolve is being underrated by some. I think people should be scrying at least 60% of the time. If you aren't seeing something you really want, send it to the bottom. And 60% is real upside over Cancel.
I get that Dismiss has some luster these days, but it's still great in more controlling builds. Even in the '2 mid threats' against Dismiss scenario, you're still sort of trading 2-for-2. Countering anything bigger is amazing.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Outlaws of Thunder Junction
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
I think being able to play it so long as you have 1 island is more important than being able to counter their turn 5 lightning bolt, or their turn 12 whatever.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Prohibit is BAD on the draw, oh dear.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
When you're losing, Forbid is Cancel, but when you're ahead, Forbid's just GG.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
1cc
Force spike, mana tithe
2cc
Counterspell, mana leak, miscalculation, memory lapse, remand, negate
3cc
Complicate, forbid, dissipate, soul manipulation, exclude
4cc
Dismiss
5cc
Force of will
Xcc
Condescend
Considering I play 400 cards, i'm kind of counter light. Blue in my cube is the tempo/fliers/CA color, and the counterspells are only there to stop broken things or tempo someone out. I did not want 5+ counters in a deck. Forbid is neat with bouncelands.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide