Land destruction seems like potentially a strong archetype in a peasant cube, yet I see few people running straight-up LD spells other than Pillage and Sinkhole. How come? It seems like it could be particularly strong in green, which can go Turn 1 elf, turn 2 LD spell.
I think that if you're going to support LD then you have to run enough cards in green and/or red and/or black for resource denial to be a viable archetype rather than just a one-off.
Red seems better, since you get Molten Rain, Avalanche Riders, and Ogre Arsonist (all of which are or were in my cube and performed well). The nice thing about these cards (and Acid Moss, which I also like but don't run) is that they are good outside of a dedicated LD deck; you can run avalanche riders or molten rain in an aggro deck and be very happy with them. Stone Rain just isn't a card that most decks want, and it will be a dead card a decent chunk of the time.
Another argument for red being your LD color is that many of the best red LD effects are attached to creatures, making them easier to abuse. I've had crystal shard/avalanche riders lock someone out of a game before.
One additional note about LD: I like to have at least one or two answers to every card in cube. I like cubing at least a couple LD effects because they strongly punish control players who get too greedy with Karoos in their mana bases. However, including enough LD to support a deck dedicated to it seems awfully restrictive for cube construction...
The reason why the only LD spells I'd ever consider running are Acidic slime, avalanche riders, and pillage is because Ld is the most inconsistent type of spell we have. Some days it's going to win you the game for 3 mana and no work. Some days it is literally dead.
In addition to some of the cards named I run goblin ruinblaster and aftershock. The goblin gets better with rare duals in the cube because there are more targets. Aftershock is a great, versatile card that I'd recommend for any cube. Play it over your worst burn spell.
LD probably won't work as well if your cube frequently has monocolor decks. It might get relegated to sideboards. IMO, that's okay. It shines against multicolor control- a deck which has been strong in my peasant cube.
LD is actually never "literally" dead. Your opponent will always have lands. Idk, cubes play out in different ways. At most point of any game I can remember playing with my cube, I could have benefited from pressuring my opponents mana base.
Behind spoiler tags is a pretty nuts midrange ld deck that I drafted in an 8 person last weekend. I did get pretty lucky to see almost every ld spell in the cube, in this draft. These spells gave an otherwise boring midrange deck an interesting angle of play.
LD is actually never "literally" dead. Your opponent will always have lands. Idk, cubes play out in different ways. At most point of any game I can remember playing with my cube, I could have benefited from pressuring my opponents mana base.
If you have a land destruction spell
and any target you choose doesn't actually end up affecting your opponent's spells/abilities
It's dead.
Now, you have "theoretically" dead, and "literally" dead. In theory, your opponent could draw his jade mage and that land has a chance of being relevant. They could topdeck a draw spell and suddenly want to do multiple things. Maybe you knocked him down to 1 of a color and he has a double colored spell in hand. These are "theoretical".
When your opponent actually never needed the land you targeted after it's dead (so, when the above don't happen), you wasted a card. This happens, and this is "literal".
@Leelue: Judging the effects of a spell by unknown information is not very reliable. If there's anything in their deck that might want that extra mana, LD is 'live.'
I understand that LD in cube is pretty all-or-nothing. You have to have some type of critical mass to be effective. I try to reach that critical mass. I run Sinkhole. Goblin Ruinblaster, Goblin Settler, Avalanche Riders, Ogre Arsonist Ravaging Horde, Stone Rain, Pillage, Molten Rain, Acidic Slime, Brutalizer Exarch, Ice Storm, Strip Mine, and Wasteland.
Of these, I particularly like the creatures attached to LD, because they impact the board while destroying lands.
I don't run as much LD in black because I consider discard and LD to be reasonable proxies for each other and I don't consider Choking Sands to be better than Stupor or even Wrench Mind (which I don't run) in most cases.
But I like LD and also consider it an important historical part of the game.
@Leelue: Judging the effects of a spell by unknown information is not very reliable. If there's anything in their deck that might want that extra mana, LD is 'live.'
If I am the recipient of the destroyed land, the information is not unknown. If I ask routinely "did my LD spell affect your gameplan at all?" and the answer is "no", then I'm not working with unknown information.
I feel like supporting LD as a theme in your cube is just going to take up too many spots with cards that are too often effectively dead. I don't want to get into semantic arguments about dead versus live, but it's generally pretty obvious when the LD spell in your hand is just not going to do much to affect the game. I think those situations would come up more often that I would be willing to accept. The fact that it's not particularly fun to play against is another knock against it in my mind because I'm trying to promote games that are interactive and fun for both players.
I feel like supporting LD as a theme in your cube is just going to take up too many spots with cards that are too often effectively dead. I don't want to get into semantic arguments about dead versus live, but it's generally pretty obvious when the LD spell in your hand is just not going to do much to affect the game. I think those situations would come up more often that I would be willing to accept. The fact that it's not particularly fun to play against is another knock against it in my mind because I'm trying to promote games that are interactive and fun for both players.
This last part is where I stand as well. LD is generally an anti-fun mechanic to me. Pretty early on in my cube's construction, I took out all non-Acidic Slime LD effects and not once have I ever regretted doing so. Not being able to cast spells because my opponent drafted a solid control deck with countermagic is fine. Not being able to cast spells because my opponent Sinkholed my whichevercolored mana source is boring, and not fun.
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My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
Three points:
1) @leelue I understand what you're saying now. You're referring to your own experience, which has shown that LD is often irrelevant.
2) I play exactly 4 cards (of 512) that have no other purpose than LD. Of course, you wouldn't likely play the others if they didn't destroy land, but it's more of an incidental effect. And I think LD is an important part of Magic. Helps keep Maze of Ith in check. Punishes man lands and greedy manabases.
3) I LOVE playing land destruction. Maybe not as much as the people who hate playing against LD hate it, but a lot. So it's there for my sake if no one else's.
This is the whole reason why I was considering avalanche riders again, if not also aftershock (since I realllly want a maindeckable artifact removal spell in red and I am not enamored with the creature versions as much as I'd like)
Greedy mana bases, I'm not worried about. Those punish themselves by being slower and less consistent.
Just realized something that may be worth mentioning in terms of why I find LD anti-fun. Many of you run man-lands and other utility lands, whereas in my own cube I only run duals and color-fixers. I might change that in the future, but at least for now the main reason I dislike LD is because my lands are strictly for color-fixing. Avalanche Ridering a Faerie Conclave or a Treetop Village is one thing, and understandable, and I don't really have any issues with that. But blowing up someone's only mana source of a particular color is crappy and mean, and making it so your opponent can't play spells... Yeah I just don't like that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
Anyone tried Icefall? Graveyard synergy people? How does it stack up vs eg pillage?
How much worse is Tec Edge than Wasteland? Do y'all folks without rare duals even run Wasteland?
edit: @majikian: wow I didn't read the part of your post about tec edge over wasteland. I guess I could see it. Although there are what, 4 man lands played in c/ube, none of which I'd consider troublesome enough to need pointed answers.
I think that if you're going to support LD then you have to run enough cards in green and/or red and/or black for resource denial to be a viable archetype rather than just a one-off.
Some cards to consider:
Another argument for red being your LD color is that many of the best red LD effects are attached to creatures, making them easier to abuse. I've had crystal shard/avalanche riders lock someone out of a game before.
One additional note about LD: I like to have at least one or two answers to every card in cube. I like cubing at least a couple LD effects because they strongly punish control players who get too greedy with Karoos in their mana bases. However, including enough LD to support a deck dedicated to it seems awfully restrictive for cube construction...
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Also I have strip mine and wasteland. I'm sure these weren't forgotten.
LD probably won't work as well if your cube frequently has monocolor decks. It might get relegated to sideboards. IMO, that's okay. It shines against multicolor control- a deck which has been strong in my peasant cube.
LD is actually never "literally" dead. Your opponent will always have lands. Idk, cubes play out in different ways. At most point of any game I can remember playing with my cube, I could have benefited from pressuring my opponents mana base.
Behind spoiler tags is a pretty nuts midrange ld deck that I drafted in an 8 person last weekend. I did get pretty lucky to see almost every ld spell in the cube, in this draft. These spells gave an otherwise boring midrange deck an interesting angle of play.
- 7 Mountain
- 7 Plains
- 1 Strip Mine
- 1 Sacred Foundry
- 1 Boros Garrison
- 1 Goldmeadow Harrier
- 1 Gore-house Chainwalker
- 1 Lone Missionary
- 1 Hellspark Elemental
- 1 Troubled Healer
- 1 Flickerwisp
- 1 Kitchen Finks
- 1 Calciderm
- 1 Galvanatic Juggernaut
- 1 Avalanche Riders
- 1 Bloodfray Giant
- 1 Cloudgoat Ranger
- 1 Reckless Charge
- 1 Boros Charm
- 1 Shrine of Loyal Legions
- 1 Pacifism
- 1 Grafted Wargear
- 1 Blinding Beam
- 1 Lust for War
- 1 Pillage
- 1 Stone Rain
- 1 Molten Rain
- 1 Aftershock
[/deck]If you have a land destruction spell
and any target you choose doesn't actually end up affecting your opponent's spells/abilities
It's dead.
Now, you have "theoretically" dead, and "literally" dead. In theory, your opponent could draw his jade mage and that land has a chance of being relevant. They could topdeck a draw spell and suddenly want to do multiple things. Maybe you knocked him down to 1 of a color and he has a double colored spell in hand. These are "theoretical".
When your opponent actually never needed the land you targeted after it's dead (so, when the above don't happen), you wasted a card. This happens, and this is "literal".
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I understand that LD in cube is pretty all-or-nothing. You have to have some type of critical mass to be effective. I try to reach that critical mass. I run Sinkhole. Goblin Ruinblaster, Goblin Settler, Avalanche Riders, Ogre Arsonist Ravaging Horde, Stone Rain, Pillage, Molten Rain, Acidic Slime, Brutalizer Exarch, Ice Storm, Strip Mine, and Wasteland.
Of these, I particularly like the creatures attached to LD, because they impact the board while destroying lands.
I don't run as much LD in black because I consider discard and LD to be reasonable proxies for each other and I don't consider Choking Sands to be better than Stupor or even Wrench Mind (which I don't run) in most cases.
But I like LD and also consider it an important historical part of the game.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Outlaws of Thunder Junction
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
If I am the recipient of the destroyed land, the information is not unknown. If I ask routinely "did my LD spell affect your gameplan at all?" and the answer is "no", then I'm not working with unknown information.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
CubeTutor: www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/72
Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=512410
This last part is where I stand as well. LD is generally an anti-fun mechanic to me. Pretty early on in my cube's construction, I took out all non-Acidic Slime LD effects and not once have I ever regretted doing so. Not being able to cast spells because my opponent drafted a solid control deck with countermagic is fine. Not being able to cast spells because my opponent Sinkholed my whichevercolored mana source is boring, and not fun.
1) @leelue I understand what you're saying now. You're referring to your own experience, which has shown that LD is often irrelevant.
2) I play exactly 4 cards (of 512) that have no other purpose than LD. Of course, you wouldn't likely play the others if they didn't destroy land, but it's more of an incidental effect. And I think LD is an important part of Magic. Helps keep Maze of Ith in check. Punishes man lands and greedy manabases.
3) I LOVE playing land destruction. Maybe not as much as the people who hate playing against LD hate it, but a lot. So it's there for my sake if no one else's.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/peasantsnowcube
-- Updated with Outlaws of Thunder Junction
The PioneWer Peasant CUbe
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/pionewer
-- Updated with Murders at Karlov Manor
This is the whole reason why I was considering avalanche riders again, if not also aftershock (since I realllly want a maindeckable artifact removal spell in red and I am not enamored with the creature versions as much as I'd like)
Greedy mana bases, I'm not worried about. Those punish themselves by being slower and less consistent.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Anyone tried Icefall? Graveyard synergy people? How does it stack up vs eg pillage?
How much worse is Tec Edge than Wasteland? Do y'all folks without rare duals even run Wasteland?
edit: @majikian: wow I didn't read the part of your post about tec edge over wasteland. I guess I could see it. Although there are what, 4 man lands played in c/ube, none of which I'd consider troublesome enough to need pointed answers.
I've been dreaming about supporting ponza.
Here's a list I drafted on MagnetMan's cube a while ago:
1x Jackal Pup
1x Mogg Fanatic
1x Reckless Waif
1x Stonewright
1x Ember Hauler
1x Keldon Marauders
1x Lightning Mauler
1x Stormblood Berserker
1x Torch Fiend
1x Avalanche Riders
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Keldon Champion
1x Gathan Raiders
1x Chimeric Idol
1x Pierce Strider
Artifact
1x Shrine of Burning Rage
Instant
1x Fireblast
Sorcery
1x Faithless Looting
1x Forked Bolt
1x Arc Trail
1x Molten Rain
1x Pillage
1x Rift Bolt
1x Aftershock
Land
1x Ghitu Encampment
1x Wasteland
14x Mountain
1x Barter in Blood
1x Calciderm
1x Calcite Snapper
1x Duergar Hedge-Mage
1x Galvanic Juggernaut
1x Kird Ape
1x Knight of Meadowgrain
1x Kor Sanctifiers
1x Marsh Flitter
1x Phyrexian Rager
1x Putrid Leech
1x Rakdos Carnarium
1x River Boa
1x Simic Charm
1x Thieving Magpie
1x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Vivid Crag
1x Volcanic Fallout
1x Wild Nacatl
Oh to have access to something like plow under or winter orb to extend some support into a gruul land denial deck.
I'm thinking again of a Gruul Midrange LD deck
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Nest Invader
1 Gorehouse Chainwalker
1 Lightning Mauler
1 Wild Mongrel
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fire Imp
1 Goblin Ruinblaster
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Gore-Clan Rampager
1 Acidic Slime
1 Ogre Arsonist
1 Firebolt
1 Arc Lightning
1 Pillage
1 Staggershock
1 Aftershock
1 Creeping Mold
1 Strip Mine
16 Lands