What is the consensus on Vulpine Goliath? A 6/5 trample guy for 4GG at common seems good. It should replace either Kindercatch or Alpha Tyrranax. We will see which one goes.
The creature will come into play, if the spell fizzels. That means, that your opponent maybe used Lightning Bolt on your Centaur Courser, while you still get a Wind Drake for cc5.
This fact makes Nimbus Nayad a slightly better Griffin Guide for 2 additional mana and the Guide is a very strong Uncommon aura.
How does it make Nimbus Naiad a slightly better Griffin Guide at all? Griffin Guide is good because if it resolves you get either a Spectral Flight or a Wind Drake for the price of a Wind Drake, not the cost of bothSpectral Flight and Wind Drake. Obviously Bestow has some upside when the creature you're enchanting dies, but even then you're still spending 5 mana, a card, and a decent creature for one of your opponent's removal spells (that probably would have taken care of that creature anyway), 1-2 of your opponent's mana, and a Wind Drake. That's not a trade I'm super excited about making, and the fact that the earliest it can come down is turn 5 (without acceleration) is pretty problematic since at that point in the game a Wind Drake isn't nearly as exciting as on turn 3. When your opponent doesn't have removal, Bestow is simply extremely overcosted. When your opponent has removal, Bestow prevents a complete blowout unless it's a Pacifism, but also generally doesn't really put you ahead at all. I'd almost always rather have a Spectral Flight because it can get damage through faster, the difference between 2 mana and 5 mana is huge, and mid to late game with 5 mana I can both play Spectral Flight and another threat or have something like counter backup for the creature they try to remove.
In general I think Bestow is a really interesting mechanic, but when the cheapest Bestow cost we have is 4, it's not as exciting. Hexproof decks would play almost all of the cheaper auras any day, it's too expensive for most tempo / aggro decks, control decks can't guarantee a good Bestow target, which leaves the target archetype as midrange ... which might not even play Bestow cards because their 4-5 mana creatures are so powerful anyway.
People, afaik Spectral Flight can't turn sideways like Nimbus Naiad can. Sure it sucks to get blown out by the right removal(what doesn't?), but at the very least, a Wind Drake is still one more evasive beater.
How I see the Naiad:
1)Turn 3 threat. albeit a small one.
2)Turn 5 aura, stick on man'o'war and go to town.
3)Turn 1X aura, stick on big creature and go to town.
Versatility matters to me, as much as manasinks, I'm gonna go indulge in some Theros.
As long as we're comparing things to Griffin Guide, Naiad doesn't produce a 2/2 that dies to a bounce spell which is very relevant. I don't know exactly how good it is without testing but I think it is quite strong, and while it would obviously be better with a lower Bestow cost I'm fine with paying an extra mana or two for the versatility it provides.
I also think people are overlooking Observant Alseid. I've played Knightly Valor in my cube from day 1 and been really happy with it even though I don't support the hexproof deck as much as some. Here you're gaining versatility and making it harder to get blown out, in exchange for having to wait for your huge threat to die to make a 2/2, which is almost always going to be fine. Again I don't know exactly how the mechanic plays, which is why i'm going to TEST it rather than dismiss it right away. I hope to be impressed.
As long as we're comparing things to Griffin Guide...
It's an uncommon, I'd take it as a compliment on behalf for the common who can even get compared to the card, even though it costs 2 more and has slight functional difference.
@k_alk:
From the things you say, Archaeomancer would be terrible, because for 2UU you only get a 1/2. It's not good, but it's Ok, because it contains a lot of quality and a body at all. The Nayad has a huge impact as a Spectral Flight and if it should really be fizzeled, you get a 2/2 flying body, that's always a relevant body, to attack and block.
I maybe wouldn't include any of the Bestow cards, if blue would have not got a new hexproof guy. All my auras are played under the point, that they are good, even without hexproofers, but better with them. I think that the blue bestow card fills this requirements. The reasons for the 2 additional mana against Griffin Guide are for the following: It has versality, doesn't fizzle and it's a common.
The cost of auras hasn't been such a huge problem, because you are rarely playing them on curve. Of course it's cool to have Blade of the Sixth Pride with Spectral Flight in turn 3, but the chance that the first removal, your opponent has, will trade great for him, is very high.
Auras are mainly played later, IMO. If I don't have a hexproof guy, I won't play Trollhide on any creature, as long as I don't have at least 5 lands. This makes it a pseudo cc5 aura.
I don't think that the bestow cards are terribly overcosted and that pauper cubes can be able to pay cc5 for a great aura like Griffin Guide, especially with small advantages.
Btw. I won't play any bestow card except for the blue and the green one, because they are the best with a far distance to the others, and in addition to that, they are the only ones, that got hexproof creatures in their colors.
I agree with you and I think I might add blue auras as well. However, I do disagree that most of the auras would be playable without hexproof as an archetype. Trollhide really isn't very good in a vacuum.
That is not Christmas land that is just good plays.
The Bestow cards are generally too weak for Cube. The Bestow costs are just way too high. Like, the best Bestow card is the blue Wind Drake, obviously, but its Bestow costs 250% of Spectral Flight's mana for the same effect, all while very few people even run Spectral Flight in the first place. The Wind Drake body is fine, and that's exactly why I can only expect to play it as a creature all the time. You're not spending your whole 5th turn on making your Looter a 3/3.
You are looking at it wrong. Look at Bestow like it is kicker. Sometimes you just have to play your Citanul Woodreaders on turn three. It is not ideal but sometime you just need an early blocker. But sometimes you are in top deck mode and then you rip one and then it feels super sweet to play it for its added value.
It adds versatile cards to your cube and them are the ones that make your cube interesting. So maybe I'm just optimistic but some of them just look sweet. So we will see if they do enough but for now I'm hopeful.
Oh wow, I missed Savage Surge's rarity downgrade too. I'll definitely be testing it over something like Arachnus Web, especially since I (re)-added other green combat tricks recently and have been really pleased with those changes. Also, I don't think anybody else plays this card, but Savage Surge works incredibly well with Spikeshot Goblin (it also works with other pingers, but not quite as well).
Savage Surge should complement my other untap cards nicely. I was very pleased to see that become a Common (like it easily could have been in its first printing).
After 2 days of prerelease sealed, my opinion about the most cards didn't changed, except for Gray Merchant of Asphodel. If it only has an additional devotion 2, it already is as good as Bleak Coven Vampire with Metalcraft and makes a difference of 8 life overall. I mean 8 life can be absolutly insane, especially because black is very BB-heavy. I think it's probably cubeable. Is it better than Rotting Legion and Pewter Golem?
I think it's probably better than either of them by a wide margin.
Of all the Theros cards that was the one I was most pleasantly surprised by. Cube is a different environment but I managed to win more than a couple games just by casting a Gray Merchant following combat.
I didn't play in the pre-release. Do you think that will translate to cube because sealed formats are always pretty slow.
I had mentioned that it made me think twice on my initial look-through a few pages back but no one else has so much as mentioned it so I gave up on it. It looks interesting as it can block and gain life over time to help you survive in a control deck. But it's obviously terribly slow, has a somewhat small board presence. And WB isn't exactly the go-to control color in my cube.
Tough to say because there are a lot of slow games in Cube too (eg sometimes Flood singlehandedly wins the game)
I don't think it will. You're right, sealed is always a slower format. This one is even slower than most apart from maybe Rise of the Eldrazi. The Scholar was actually really good at the prerelease because the insanely slow pace and the insanely bad quality of the removal made for games that really dragged on barring some Boros or Minotaur aggro deck. However, the change to cube will be a shock for the card because of the quicker pace and very high quality of removal available. It also doesn't help that he's in one of the very best guilds of pauper cube for card quality.
Minotaur Skullcleaver > Inner-Flame Acolyte, IMO. RR on a 3drop is highly relevant.
That just can't be right because without the evoke and the ability to pump something better than itself, Inner-Flame probably wouldn't see any play. So basically, if Skullcleaver>Acolyte than they both probably belong on the sideline.
Auto-includes for everyone with an aura/hexproof topic, but also playable in every cube:
Benthic Giant
I don't think Benthic Giant depends on hexproof support that much. Either he makes it straight up as a control finisher or he doesn't. I could see him influencing a few corner cases (like Nimbus Naiad) though.
That just can't be right because without the evoke and the ability to pump something better than itself, Inner-Flame probably wouldn't see any play. So basically, if Skullcleaver>Acolyte than they both probably belong on the sideline.
100% Agree. I hate double costs as much as anyone else but the flexibility of the Acolyte puts it way above Skullcleaver. Having said that, I wouldn't play either (at 360).
What have people's experiences been with their Theros experimentation/inclusions?
The obvious candidates (Chimera, Read the Bone, Asp, and/or Lightning Strike) have been as expected for me, they replaced older, sometimes even just bumped out, lesser choices.
Chimera is everything a moderately Blue non-Aggro deck has wanted, if even just for the body.
Black's Foresee has been awesome for any deck using it. Aggro will accept it, usually they want Sign in Blood if they are heavier black.
And the Asp has lived up to the expectations I had set for it upon its revealing.
Odder choices, like the 3cc Prey Upon-esque Time to Feed have been nice. I like the redundancy and feel better than saying Pit Fight is Green b/c red does no want it.
Speaking of Green tricks, Savage Surge and Feral Invocations feel like a topic for 'This or That' as in my 360 putting both in feels too much like where I was 8 months ago when I was cutting down the 'pump' combat tricks of green.
Bestow is a mixed bag to me as I have not included too much Hexproof, instead I have that as an optional substitution package depending on community using the cube. I like when they are late game and I have the mana, but do not feel as great when they are sitting in my hand and I have to choose between holding or playing as a body.
Theros let me hit critical mass for the auras deck to be a thing. In addition to the 3 nymphs in bant colors, commune with the gods and hopeful eidolon are great. Commune with the gods finds the missing piece of your "combo" of [hexproof guy] + [auras], and hopeful eidolon, like armadillo cloak and mark of the vampire, makes your opponent unable to race you.
Also notice that Ill-Tempered Cyclops has been very good in Theros limited. Maybe he is worth a try.
Ill-Tempered Cyclops has played well for me. Definitely a nice addition at 4 CMC, which is always a sort of awkward place in the curve between red aggro and midrange cards.
Chimera - Dominates airspace and is sure nice in control designs
Read the bones - duh
Asp - It may have edged out other 5cc/Beaters in green, but the Reach mass that has come of late with Sentinel Spider, Mossdog, and now this reminds me of the great Blue boon from INN block; and to an extent is an answer to that.
Lightning Strike is unmentioned b/c it does not add anything that was not there, it just upgrades Sorcery to Instant for a few people.
Omenspeaker, Prescient Chimera, Read the Bones, Deathbellow Raider, Leafcrown Dryad
Cards I'm considering:
Vaporkin, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Lightning Strike, Minotaur Skullcleaver, Nylea's Disciple, Nylea's Emissary, Spearpoint Oread
I'm in the process of writing a set review for pauper + peasant cube. Should be up sometime at the end of this week or early next week.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
It is a second slightly less good arrester. I like them both enough for inclusion. It reminds me a lot of Kor Hookmaster.
Morbid Plunder is also better.
What is the consensus on Vulpine Goliath? A 6/5 trample guy for 4GG at common seems good. It should replace either Kindercatch or Alpha Tyrranax. We will see which one goes.
How does it make Nimbus Naiad a slightly better Griffin Guide at all? Griffin Guide is good because if it resolves you get either a Spectral Flight or a Wind Drake for the price of a Wind Drake, not the cost of bothSpectral Flight and Wind Drake. Obviously Bestow has some upside when the creature you're enchanting dies, but even then you're still spending 5 mana, a card, and a decent creature for one of your opponent's removal spells (that probably would have taken care of that creature anyway), 1-2 of your opponent's mana, and a Wind Drake. That's not a trade I'm super excited about making, and the fact that the earliest it can come down is turn 5 (without acceleration) is pretty problematic since at that point in the game a Wind Drake isn't nearly as exciting as on turn 3. When your opponent doesn't have removal, Bestow is simply extremely overcosted. When your opponent has removal, Bestow prevents a complete blowout unless it's a Pacifism, but also generally doesn't really put you ahead at all. I'd almost always rather have a Spectral Flight because it can get damage through faster, the difference between 2 mana and 5 mana is huge, and mid to late game with 5 mana I can both play Spectral Flight and another threat or have something like counter backup for the creature they try to remove.
In general I think Bestow is a really interesting mechanic, but when the cheapest Bestow cost we have is 4, it's not as exciting. Hexproof decks would play almost all of the cheaper auras any day, it's too expensive for most tempo / aggro decks, control decks can't guarantee a good Bestow target, which leaves the target archetype as midrange ... which might not even play Bestow cards because their 4-5 mana creatures are so powerful anyway.
How I see the Naiad:
1)Turn 3 threat. albeit a small one.
2)Turn 5 aura, stick on man'o'war and go to town.
3)Turn 1X aura, stick on big creature and go to town.
Versatility matters to me, as much as manasinks, I'm gonna go indulge in some Theros.
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
I also think people are overlooking Observant Alseid. I've played Knightly Valor in my cube from day 1 and been really happy with it even though I don't support the hexproof deck as much as some. Here you're gaining versatility and making it harder to get blown out, in exchange for having to wait for your huge threat to die to make a 2/2, which is almost always going to be fine. Again I don't know exactly how the mechanic plays, which is why i'm going to TEST it rather than dismiss it right away. I hope to be impressed.
Level 1 Judge
It's an uncommon, I'd take it as a compliment on behalf for the common who can even get compared to the card, even though it costs 2 more and has slight functional difference.
You'll be
360 Infinity Cube (No mana-screw multiplayer madness!)
I agree with you and I think I might add blue auras as well. However, I do disagree that most of the auras would be playable without hexproof as an archetype. Trollhide really isn't very good in a vacuum.
Extremely interesting. I played with Spidery Grasp for a bit and it was never efficiently enough for me, but this seems testable as a superior trick.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
You are looking at it wrong. Look at Bestow like it is kicker. Sometimes you just have to play your Citanul Woodreaders on turn three. It is not ideal but sometime you just need an early blocker. But sometimes you are in top deck mode and then you rip one and then it feels super sweet to play it for its added value.
It adds versatile cards to your cube and them are the ones that make your cube interesting. So maybe I'm just optimistic but some of them just look sweet. So we will see if they do enough but for now I'm hopeful.
I think it's probably better than either of them by a wide margin.
Of all the Theros cards that was the one I was most pleasantly surprised by. Cube is a different environment but I managed to win more than a couple games just by casting a Gray Merchant following combat.
Tough to say because there are a lot of slow games in Cube too (eg sometimes Flood singlehandedly wins the game)
Talking about Scholar of Athreos.
I don't think it will. You're right, sealed is always a slower format. This one is even slower than most apart from maybe Rise of the Eldrazi. The Scholar was actually really good at the prerelease because the insanely slow pace and the insanely bad quality of the removal made for games that really dragged on barring some Boros or Minotaur aggro deck. However, the change to cube will be a shock for the card because of the quicker pace and very high quality of removal available. It also doesn't help that he's in one of the very best guilds of pauper cube for card quality.
Theros stuff I'm using that I think lots of people should/will use in 360 (besides functional reprints)
Theros stuff I'm using that's a bit weirder
Theros stuff I haven't decided on yet
/2cents
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That just can't be right because without the evoke and the ability to pump something better than itself, Inner-Flame probably wouldn't see any play. So basically, if Skullcleaver>Acolyte than they both probably belong on the sideline.
I don't think Benthic Giant depends on hexproof support that much. Either he makes it straight up as a control finisher or he doesn't. I could see him influencing a few corner cases (like Nimbus Naiad) though.
Also, if you ever play 2HG with your cube, Gray Merchant is insane in that format.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
100% Agree. I hate double costs as much as anyone else but the flexibility of the Acolyte puts it way above Skullcleaver. Having said that, I wouldn't play either (at 360).
The obvious candidates (Chimera, Read the Bone, Asp, and/or Lightning Strike) have been as expected for me, they replaced older, sometimes even just bumped out, lesser choices.
Chimera is everything a moderately Blue non-Aggro deck has wanted, if even just for the body.
Black's Foresee has been awesome for any deck using it. Aggro will accept it, usually they want Sign in Blood if they are heavier black.
And the Asp has lived up to the expectations I had set for it upon its revealing.
Odder choices, like the 3cc Prey Upon-esque Time to Feed have been nice. I like the redundancy and feel better than saying Pit Fight is Green b/c red does no want it.
Speaking of Green tricks, Savage Surge and Feral Invocations feel like a topic for 'This or That' as in my 360 putting both in feels too much like where I was 8 months ago when I was cutting down the 'pump' combat tricks of green.
Bestow is a mixed bag to me as I have not included too much Hexproof, instead I have that as an optional substitution package depending on community using the cube. I like when they are late game and I have the mana, but do not feel as great when they are sitting in my hand and I have to choose between holding or playing as a body.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
Ill-Tempered Cyclops has played well for me. Definitely a nice addition at 4 CMC, which is always a sort of awkward place in the curve between red aggro and midrange cards.
Chimera - Dominates airspace and is sure nice in control designs
Read the bones - duh
Asp - It may have edged out other 5cc/Beaters in green, but the Reach mass that has come of late with Sentinel Spider, Mossdog, and now this reminds me of the great Blue boon from INN block; and to an extent is an answer to that.
Lightning Strike is unmentioned b/c it does not add anything that was not there, it just upgrades Sorcery to Instant for a few people.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube