I have been trying the graveyard theme extensively the last 2 months (doing 2-3 grid draft with my wife each week) and I also realised blue is essential.
You'll notice that almost all enablers in the second group are not repeatable and/or green. Green more often then not doesn't make it in the deck (meaning I have had less opportunity to test them) and you like your enablers to be repeatable for consistency.
I have been really impressed by Wurm Harvest. It can really take over games. Biggest dud so far seems Spider Spawning as you can only cast it twice and the deck usually has around 10-14 creatures. Meaning that it only because great after you've milled around 16 cards. Wurm Harvest is already ok after milling 12 cards on average and can be repeated over and over again so it matter less if the first cast is not stellar and only makes 4 tokens.
Sounds like I really need to try out Stinkweed Imp and Worm Harvest as well as Raven's Crime. I agree that it seems like this deck is a lot better with blue. I guess my GB section can have support for this archetype, and then when you go into this deck you just kind of expect to go into blue as well. I'm kind of surprised that Exhume has been good for you, I would have figured in peasant cube the symmetric nature of it would be pretty painful, but you haven't found that to be the case?
I guess my main concern with stinkweed imp is that it could end up being too strong as a repeated blocker outside of a deck like this due to the deathtouch. Have you found that to be the case at all? I guess if you bring it back twice that is a pretty significant number of cards you have milled, so it isn't exactly cost-less to continually draw a strong blocker each turn.
Exhume is good because of the asymmetric expected value. Your creatures are always better and often, they won't have any creature in the GY at all. It's a pure reanimator rather than GY value card, though, unless you happen to be packed with Nekrataal effects.
Worm Harvest is definitely a legit win condition and it can work with almost every colour combination that includes at least one of the colours. I have CubeTutor decks that are Selesnya and Orzhov Worm Harvest, for instance.
Am I missing something with Worm Harvest? Grizzly Fate and Spider Spawning make significantly better bodies, more bodies, are easier to set up, don't restrict mana development, and can actually be cast in the mid game; I'm having a hard time seeing where Worm Harvest outshines either of them outside of breaking singleton for fetches. Even generic stuff like Crystal Shard or recurring Baloth Null feels like a more effective win condition.
TI'm kind of surprised that Exhume has been good for you, I would have figured in peasant cube the symmetric nature of it would be pretty painful, but you haven't found that to be the case?
More often then not your playing it turn four or five and your opponent has no worthy target in their graveyard. Even later if it bring back an eldrazi for you and a Beetleback Chief for your opponent that's still ok. however, like VariSami mentioned be careful of Ravenous Chupacabras or Man-o'-Wars in your opponent's graveyard.
I guess my main concern with stinkweed imp is that it could end up being too strong as a repeated blocker outside of a deck like this due to the deathtouch. Have you found that to be the case at all? I guess if you bring it back twice that is a pretty significant number of cards you have milled, so it isn't exactly cost-less to continually draw a strong blocker each turn.
In the type of games in which recurring the Imp twice is a solid game plan milling 10 cards isn't free. Against most aggro decks this is way too slow and there are a lot of answers (Oblivion Ring and friends come to mind). Also, you're not drawing any other cards if you're doing this so you're just stalling.
Am I missing something with Worm Harvest? Grizzly Fate and Spider Spawning make significantly better bodies, more bodies, are easier to set up, don't restrict mana development, and can actually be cast in the mid game; I'm having a hard time seeing where Worm Harvest outshines either of them outside of breaking singleton for fetches. Even generic stuff like Crystal Shard or recurring Baloth Null feels like a more effective win condition.
Those cards are indeed better outside of the dedicated self-mill deck, but Wurm Harvest is game wrapping in this deck. You usually mill these cards in your graveyard and then play them from there. This means that you can only play Grizzly Fate and Spider Spawning once. Moreover, they are seven mana which is usually too late if you need to stabilize. Making four tokens with Wurm harvest just to chump block against an aggro deck that is pressuring is ok because next turn you'll make 5 etc.
I'm basically always casting Spider Spawning from hand though; you're typically drawing a lot more cards than you're milling in basically every graveyard deck, not to mention Eternal Witness and other spell recursion exists. Casting it from grave isn't bad, though it is a bit more of a comparison: Worm Harvest essentially costs 6 if casting from grave (casting it on t5 needs basically a nut draw), and if you're casting it again the following turn you would have had 7 mana for Spider Spawning (which probably gets you a similar amount of tokens to 2 Worm Harvest casts, but way better bodies); 6 mana is a good spot to cast spells anyways, since you can go 3+3 or 4+2 (it's also probably preferable to casting Goblin Rally).
How does Worm Harvest stabilize against aggro? To get 4 tokens you need to have drawn 6 land and milled 3; the average point to draw 6 lands is 14-15 draws, which is t7-8ish (assuming the mill condition to be trivial); anything less than 4 tokens is just not worth casting. If you want to cast it repeatedly you need to continuously top deck lands too. By that point aggro should be either relying on reach or have already won. 1/1s don't deal with evasion or reach, and even open the door to dying to trample; killing someone from 20 with 1/1s is also stupidly slow, which gives them more time to find outs. Even though they don't deal with everything, Spider Spawning deals with flying and trample and Grizzly Fate deals with trample and kills quickly, not to mention they're actually decent if cast on t5.
Every place where I can think of Worm Harvest being good it's just incredibly overkill and something else could have won more consistently with less effort in deck building; it honestly seems easier to just splash multiple colours for Goblin Trenches than trying to setup Worm Harvest.
What you're missing in those calculations is how you *can* dedicate a deck to Worm Harvest because of its repeatability whereas the rest might either get thrown in a deck where they might be decent or you'd need to use them as a cannon where you know getting off a single casting will win you the game. If you're committed to Worm Harvest you can - among other things - run 20 lands and support cards like Land Tax or Intangible Virtue. A Spider Spawning deck cannot dedicate the same amount of go-wide or token support, generally, since it requires such a high number of creatures to enable Spawning. It's a *fun* build-around archetype in its own right even if it might not be the single most powerful thing. But it is powerful enough to be viable.
Also, it is not uncommon for these decks to mill 9-12 cards in the first 5 turn with Darkblast, Looters etc making the chance that you draw Wurm Harvest/Spider Spawning/Grizzly Fate instead of them ending up in your graveyard much lower.
I ran Darkblast in my list for a bit, but my group just wasn't that attracted to it. I know it has a ton of targets, potential to two or even three for one over the course of a game and it can support graveyard strategies, but it just wasn't super popular here. I wouldn't say it hoses aggro because it seems to fly a bit under the radar as one of those cards that the aggro player has to really lose to before they realize how good it is in that match up.
I actually doubt frantic search is a good enabler. I feel cube at this power level is still heavily card-advantage based, and going -1 even to enable some cute tricks does not feel great. Plus it feels a lot worse than Faithless Looting.
Did anyone had the opportunity to have some more playtesint with the deck and specific cards?
What do we think about Skull Prophet? He ramps and thus can be played in any BG Rock deck and he is a repeatable source of self mill.
Is Spider Spawning still underperforming?
I'm a bit surprised as the Dimir version of the 'graveyard' deck is usually just called...reanimator? Because that's what it is when you combine loot effects with reanimation spells (and big(ger) creatures).
The graveyard value deck is a completely different deck, it's Golgari and a grindy, slow midrange value deck and not a fast combo deck like reanimator.
I run both archetypes in my cube. Dimir reanimator has the obvious cards - loot effects in blue, reanimation spells in black and big monsters in all colors/colorless. The goal is to resurrect a fatty by turn 3 or 4 at the latest (ideally turn 2 or 3 though) and then kill your opponent with it.
It's slow and grindy, at first it's more like a defensive control deck while you try to get cards into the yard and eventually you take over the game with all the value and 'free' stuff you get.
I have no idea what my rationale was for removing grizzly fate. Did I think it was too game ending? I have to get that in for my next update.
If anyone somehow notices when I announce my updated list that I forgot to include it, please remind me with a smack on the back of my head.
"I tried to remove all instances of cards where one card is chosen 99.1% of the time over another. Not Pack 1 Pick 1, but in all picks.
So, for example, I can't reasonably think of a scenario where I'd pick Belfry spirit over Cloudgoat Ranger, so it's out. Mother of runes won't be taken under any white 1 drop, basically ever. Etc. It's hard to stretch sometimes (shriekmaw, fire imp), and I am making exceptions for aggro creatures until better ones get printed."
Did I really think grizzly fate was too good? Maybe I had just been beaten by it a bunch of times in a row or something, because right now my opinion of it is certainly not as high. I can't even figure out what it would be pushing out. Roar of the wurm?
Enablers:
Good enablers:
Looters (!)
Frantic Search
Chart a Course
Stinkweed Imp (if combined with a looter)
Mindwrack Harpy
Darkblast
Syr Konrad, the Grim (not a great enabler but is also a pay-off)
Raven's Crime (discard reanimate targets, get lands in the graveyard)
Enablers that haven't impressed (yet):
Mire Triton
Satyr Wayfinder
Grapple with the Past
Commune with the Gods
Winding Way
Nyx Weaver
You'll notice that almost all enablers in the second group are not repeatable and/or green. Green more often then not doesn't make it in the deck (meaning I have had less opportunity to test them) and you like your enablers to be repeatable for consistency.
Pay-offs:
Great in the deck:
Reassembling Skeleton (with Victimize)
Syr Konrad, the Grim
Raven's Crime (not great as a pay-off but is also a solid enabler)
Exhume
Victimize
Animate Dead
Dance of the Dead
Necromancy
Diabolic Servitude
Chainweb Aracnir
Roar of the Wurm
Worm Harvest
Might not be good enough to run for the deck, but are also good outside the deck:
Chemister's Insight
Treasure Cruise
Rise from the Tides
Gurmag Angler
Murderous Cut
Kraul Harpooner
Not impressed (yet):
Mother Bear
Grizzly Fate
Spider Spawning
I have been really impressed by Wurm Harvest. It can really take over games. Biggest dud so far seems Spider Spawning as you can only cast it twice and the deck usually has around 10-14 creatures. Meaning that it only because great after you've milled around 16 cards. Wurm Harvest is already ok after milling 12 cards on average and can be repeated over and over again so it matter less if the first cast is not stellar and only makes 4 tokens.
Solid Reanimate targets:
My C/Ube on Cube Cobra
Sounds like I really need to try out Stinkweed Imp and Worm Harvest as well as Raven's Crime. I agree that it seems like this deck is a lot better with blue. I guess my GB section can have support for this archetype, and then when you go into this deck you just kind of expect to go into blue as well. I'm kind of surprised that Exhume has been good for you, I would have figured in peasant cube the symmetric nature of it would be pretty painful, but you haven't found that to be the case?
I guess my main concern with stinkweed imp is that it could end up being too strong as a repeated blocker outside of a deck like this due to the deathtouch. Have you found that to be the case at all? I guess if you bring it back twice that is a pretty significant number of cards you have milled, so it isn't exactly cost-less to continually draw a strong blocker each turn.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
Worm Harvest is definitely a legit win condition and it can work with almost every colour combination that includes at least one of the colours. I have CubeTutor decks that are Selesnya and Orzhov Worm Harvest, for instance.
In the type of games in which recurring the Imp twice is a solid game plan milling 10 cards isn't free. Against most aggro decks this is way too slow and there are a lot of answers (Oblivion Ring and friends come to mind). Also, you're not drawing any other cards if you're doing this so you're just stalling.
Those cards are indeed better outside of the dedicated self-mill deck, but Wurm Harvest is game wrapping in this deck. You usually mill these cards in your graveyard and then play them from there. This means that you can only play Grizzly Fate and Spider Spawning once. Moreover, they are seven mana which is usually too late if you need to stabilize. Making four tokens with Wurm harvest just to chump block against an aggro deck that is pressuring is ok because next turn you'll make 5 etc.
My C/Ube on Cube Cobra
How does Worm Harvest stabilize against aggro? To get 4 tokens you need to have drawn 6 land and milled 3; the average point to draw 6 lands is 14-15 draws, which is t7-8ish (assuming the mill condition to be trivial); anything less than 4 tokens is just not worth casting. If you want to cast it repeatedly you need to continuously top deck lands too. By that point aggro should be either relying on reach or have already won. 1/1s don't deal with evasion or reach, and even open the door to dying to trample; killing someone from 20 with 1/1s is also stupidly slow, which gives them more time to find outs. Even though they don't deal with everything, Spider Spawning deals with flying and trample and Grizzly Fate deals with trample and kills quickly, not to mention they're actually decent if cast on t5.
Every place where I can think of Worm Harvest being good it's just incredibly overkill and something else could have won more consistently with less effort in deck building; it honestly seems easier to just splash multiple colours for Goblin Trenches than trying to setup Worm Harvest.
My C/Ube on Cube Cobra
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/djredpeasant
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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My C/Ube on Cube Cobra
What do we think about Skull Prophet? He ramps and thus can be played in any BG Rock deck and he is a repeatable source of self mill.
Is Spider Spawning still underperforming?
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
The graveyard value deck is a completely different deck, it's Golgari and a grindy, slow midrange value deck and not a fast combo deck like reanimator.
I run both archetypes in my cube. Dimir reanimator has the obvious cards - loot effects in blue, reanimation spells in black and big monsters in all colors/colorless. The goal is to resurrect a fatty by turn 3 or 4 at the latest (ideally turn 2 or 3 though) and then kill your opponent with it.
Golgari graveyard value doesn't need loot effects, it mostly runs self-mill cards such as Satyr Wayfinder, Hermit Druid, Stinkweed Imp, Grapple with the Past or Nyx Weaver. The payoff is basically free card advantage from cards like Mother Bear, Chainweb Aracnir, Roar of the Wurm or Grizzly Fate plus the added benefit of more cards to choose from with Restock/Raise Dead effects such as Baloth Null, Eternal Witness or Once and Future. And of course more targets for reanimation spells, which also work quite well in that deck. The mana advantage in green allows you to cast higher cmc cards more easily.
It's slow and grindy, at first it's more like a defensive control deck while you try to get cards into the yard and eventually you take over the game with all the value and 'free' stuff you get.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
If anyone somehow notices when I announce my updated list that I forgot to include it, please remind me with a smack on the back of my head.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
So, for example, I can't reasonably think of a scenario where I'd pick Belfry spirit over Cloudgoat Ranger, so it's out. Mother of runes won't be taken under any white 1 drop, basically ever. Etc. It's hard to stretch sometimes (shriekmaw, fire imp), and I am making exceptions for aggro creatures until better ones get printed."
Leelue, Jan 8th, 2016.
But is that in the wrong thread?
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article