I've been a bit busy so I haven't really had a chance to post it here, but now that it's summer I'd like to ask you guys what do you think about a bleeder strategy. In RTR block draft Orzhov's strategy is to control the board and ping them until they're dead, so I wonder if you can do it in cube as well. A regular powered cube will be too fast and aggressive so I thought it would be better suited here in peasant.
When designing Orzhov for Gatecrash the WoTC team discussed a lot about the guild having a bleeder strategy where they stalled the game and slowly drain their opponent until they died.
I love the take them little-by-little type of decks. I think this is basically where BW control wants to be and am glad it got a lot more support in return to ravnica block. Extort just synergises so well with the goals and tools of these archetype.
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Kingpin's Pet, Tithe Drinker, and Basilica Screecher have been awesome in my cube. The cheap extorters are very, very good. Extort proved itself to be a very powerful, and useful ability in limited, and transitioned incredibly easily into cube. If you are pushing this archetype I'd definitely play the previously mentioned cards.
Also, a pet card of mine, that fits right into this archetype (and that has proven to be quite good) is Bloodhunter Bat. He was solid in M13 limited, and did just as well in cube! I'd test him out as well, because my experience with him has been excellent.
I wonder if Slaughter is playable if you support this archetype heavily enough. The buyback has decent synergy with Extort and Blood Artists in that it both gives you a consistent way to repeatedly trigger them and the lifegain from them makes the cost more manageable.
Wait, slaughter isn't playable? I've been running it in my cube forever
Anyway, I'd like to try this archetype out, but I have a couple of questions:
1) How many slots should be dedicated to it?
2) How much overlap can we have between archetypes?
The extort cards are powerful, but do we need a critical mass in order to make this deck work? Also, the multicolor is full of good cards, so finding room for cards like one thousand lashes could be difficult.
With archetypes, its important to make sure that there is overlap so that the cube doesn't have too many narrow cards. For bleeder, I was thinking:
Syphon life - goes with the graveyard theme that could have.
Blood artist - sacrifice theme if the cube supports it
I've played Blood Artist and Noble, as well as the extort guys in a control deck. They are just so good wherever they are. I've played them in aggro. It's just such a sweet ability that they fit pretty comfortably in most decks.
Sorry, BrownDog, I was trying to make that point, but failing miserably. I meant that they're awesome everywhere, and especially awesome in aggro. The point is, cube these cards.
Blind Hunter. It's Bloodhunter Bat that drains you coming and going! Might be tough to work into an extra-tight Orzhov multicolor section, but it's been super-solid in the past. I'd say it's at least on par with Kingpin's Pet and Tithe Drinker.
@squirrely: Recumbent Bliss > Arrest, at least in pauper. The activated abilities of creatures aren't as important in my native format; shutting down attacks and blocks is usually good enough for white removal spells. Maybe things are different in peasant. But it's something to think about.
If kingpin's pet is averaging 3 life drained per lifespan, it's much better than blind hunter because it's cheaper. Even at 2 life I like it much more, because it is cheaper.
Besides, I had a few too many instances where haunt wouldn't go off, or where I needed to recur a 2/2 flier that died but he was too busy being a ghost to care.
I actually have a question about this archetype and its viability for cube. A lot of the listed cards are drain life-type effects, be it extort or death triggers like falkenrath noble. Combined with cards like nearheath pilgrim and recumbent bliss in white and you end up with an awfully large amount of life gain in the cube.
My question is, does the inclusion of this archetype severely restrict the viability of aggro decks? How much life gain is too much? Having done a draft after adding a few more bleeder cards like these, I am worried that red or red-x aggro decks really struggle to overcome the 3-4 life that one of these cards can gain relatively easily, and with the inclusion of so many of them in cube... Can non-extort aggro remain viable?
If kingpin's pet is averaging 3 life drained per lifespan, it's much better than blind hunter because it's cheaper. Even at 2 life I like it much more, because it is cheaper.
Besides, I had a few too many instances where haunt wouldn't go off, or where I needed to recur a 2/2 flier that died but he was too busy being a ghost to care.
Cheaper is relative, if kingpin's pet is draining 2 life it's costing you a total of 5 mana, just over time. Kingpin's pet also doesn't have the same synergy with blink and the like.
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My Peasant Cube -420 The Combo Cube
"If there are 2 things in this world I love, They are both Jace, The Mind Sculptor." - Patrick Chapin
But I shouldn't be spending mana on extort unless I wasn't going to use it for something relevant anyway. So while I may have spent more mana, it was mana going unspent.
Psyop, I don't disagree with you, but I just wanted to point out that by adding a large number of incremental lifegain cards like the extort creatures, recumbent blessing, pristine talisman, etc. you can damage the viability of aggro. None of these cards is at all unbeatable, but if you have a plethora of cards that might gain 3 life each, that can be tough to overcome for an aggressive deck.
My concern here isn't actually about the bleeder archetype - having a deck around with a good aggro matchup isn't necessarily an issue. Rather, my concern is with your point that that "It's ok to have just a couple of those cards in another type of deck." Supporting a bleeder archetype involves including a bunch of cards with incidental lifegain, and this might make the overall cube environment more hostile towards aggressive decks because any other deck might pick up a few of these and run them. Just some food for thought...
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I've been a bit busy so I haven't really had a chance to post it here, but now that it's summer I'd like to ask you guys what do you think about a bleeder strategy. In RTR block draft Orzhov's strategy is to control the board and ping them until they're dead, so I wonder if you can do it in cube as well. A regular powered cube will be too fast and aggressive so I thought it would be better suited here in peasant.
Here are cards that come to mind to support this strategy:
Blood Artist
Blood Seeker
Suture Priest
Stab Wound
One Thousand Lashes
Pillory of the Sleepless
Geth's Verdict
Gerrard's Verdict
Recumbent Bliss
Hideous End
Tribute to Hunger
Choking Sands
And obviously the extort creatures from Gatecrash
To slow them down:
Norn's Annex
Ghostly Prison
Pacifism
Oblivion Ring
Wall of Essence
Wall of Souls
What are your guys' opinion of this archetype?
Here is a sample list of possible inclusions for this archetype.
2 Syndic of Tithes
2 Basilica Screecher
3 Kingpin's Pet
4 Knight of Obligation
1 Thrull Parasite
2 Tithe Drinker
Drain
2 Blood Artist
4 Falkenrath Noble
4 Blood Hunter Bat
0 Exsanguinate
3 Syphon life
2 Blood Seeker
2 Suture Priest
Removal
2 Sorin's Thirst
2 Dash Hopes
2 Soul Reap
3 Tribute to Hunger
4 Slaughter
5 Launch Party
2 Geth's Verdict
Life Gain
1 Pride Guardian
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Stab Wound
3 Recumbent Bliss
4 Faith's Fetters
3 Hissing Miasma
Pain for Everyone
2 SmallPox
3 Soulcage Fiend
Splash Red
2 Lightning Helix
1 Bump in the Night
peasantcube.blogspot.com
I don't care for Ghostly Prison since it's so backbreaking against aggro if cast on T3.
Also, a pet card of mine, that fits right into this archetype (and that has proven to be quite good) is Bloodhunter Bat. He was solid in M13 limited, and did just as well in cube! I'd test him out as well, because my experience with him has been excellent.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
Wait, slaughter isn't playable? I've been running it in my cube forever
Anyway, I'd like to try this archetype out, but I have a couple of questions:
1) How many slots should be dedicated to it?
2) How much overlap can we have between archetypes?
The extort cards are powerful, but do we need a critical mass in order to make this deck work? Also, the multicolor is full of good cards, so finding room for cards like one thousand lashes could be difficult.
With archetypes, its important to make sure that there is overlap so that the cube doesn't have too many narrow cards. For bleeder, I was thinking:
Syphon life - goes with the graveyard theme that could have.
Blood artist - sacrifice theme if the cube supports it
Bloodhunter bat - a blink deck would appreciate it as well
Syndic of Tithes - also good in a generic white weenie deck
Also, Blood Artist and Falkenrath Noble are incredibly powerful, but they are actually even better in a BW tokens/BW aggro deck. Finally, Gerrard's Verdict is very, very good.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
@squirrely: Recumbent Bliss > Arrest, at least in pauper. The activated abilities of creatures aren't as important in my native format; shutting down attacks and blocks is usually good enough for white removal spells. Maybe things are different in peasant. But it's something to think about.
But there are a lot of "drain" type effects for those colors in gold.
Whether or not they're good enough, I don't know. But if you want to go deep in this archetype, it wouldn't hurt to play with some different cards.
If kingpin's pet is averaging 3 life drained per lifespan, it's much better than blind hunter because it's cheaper. Even at 2 life I like it much more, because it is cheaper.
Besides, I had a few too many instances where haunt wouldn't go off, or where I needed to recur a 2/2 flier that died but he was too busy being a ghost to care.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My question is, does the inclusion of this archetype severely restrict the viability of aggro decks? How much life gain is too much? Having done a draft after adding a few more bleeder cards like these, I am worried that red or red-x aggro decks really struggle to overcome the 3-4 life that one of these cards can gain relatively easily, and with the inclusion of so many of them in cube... Can non-extort aggro remain viable?
Cheaper is relative, if kingpin's pet is draining 2 life it's costing you a total of 5 mana, just over time. Kingpin's pet also doesn't have the same synergy with blink and the like.
The Combo Cube
"If there are 2 things in this world I love, They are both Jace, The Mind Sculptor." - Patrick Chapin
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My concern here isn't actually about the bleeder archetype - having a deck around with a good aggro matchup isn't necessarily an issue. Rather, my concern is with your point that that "It's ok to have just a couple of those cards in another type of deck." Supporting a bleeder archetype involves including a bunch of cards with incidental lifegain, and this might make the overall cube environment more hostile towards aggressive decks because any other deck might pick up a few of these and run them. Just some food for thought...