It's always fun to see how different cubes/playstyles/preferences make different cards feel under-/overpowered or (un)fun.
For example, I don't think I've seen Overrun successfully win a game without too much effort in a very long time. I've considered cutting it because it was UNDERperforming instead of cutting it because it randomly won the game sometimes.
I don't mind cards like Hymn, Grafted Wargear, Propaganda, Strip Mine etc, but I can definitely understand why people find them annoying or unfun, it's just that I haven't found them to be that offensive.
I don't play Propaganda because I find that annoying/unfun, sitting behind that and the game dragging on tends to reduce my will to play. but blowing stuff up or having a strong creature is fine. I hate discarding cards with a pasion, but Hymn is a good card and sometimes making a player discard is the only way to get rid of something.
Since I play in a more FFA multiplayer environment, Overrun and Tromp the Domains are both hugely wanted for Green. we even have Stampede in the deck as well. giving multiple creatures pump and trample is just too good to get damage through.
in 1on1 I can understand they may be less good/valuable but i think having 1 pumpity team pump is worth in a cube.
The problem with Fireball style x spells is that you always end up paying more for less, especially if you are aiming for a single target (as a game finisher).
Taking Blaze as an example (as it is pretty much the simplest of the bunch), you would have to pay four times the mana to match the damage output of a Lightning Bolt or Lava Spike, 5 mana to match a Lightning Blast or Stoke the Flames and 6 mana to match a Lava Axe/ Burning Fields.
This means that an xR spell is behind the curve consistently until you hit seven mana, and if you are looking to spend 7 or more mana on a burn finisher... there are better options.
The only fireball spell I can think of that breaks this flaw is Crater's Claws, which is not in our card pool
Blaze kills a Soltari on Turn 2 or a Pelakka Wurm on Turn 7. How many other red cards can do that? (Don't say Fissure or Afteshock).
If you cube with Pyroclasm effects and more red midrange creatures, one or two x spells are solid. If red is mostly just a Jackal Pup color, they're not cubeable cards.
Also, yeah, Rolling Thunder followed by Fireball followed by a bunch of things you should never consider.
That in my opinion is looking at it too simplistically... (this is also a reason i have trouble cutting cards from my cube or decks in general) Fireball can be played any of these times because it has flexibility. Meaning, if you need to kill something that has 3 toughness, Fireball can do it. sure for 4 mana and at sorcery speed.
While things like Lightning bolt and Lightning Blast are more "efficient" neither of those will win you a game when you top deck them and your opponent is at 5+ life and you have at least say 8 mana in play.
Sure that is a rare scenario, but let's also say you draw Fireball in your opening hand. You will probably tend to hold on to it longer than if you had a Lightning Bolt in your hand. The LB would be used to get rid of the first problem creature or whatever is put on the board you don't want there. The fireball may stay in your hand biding its time to deliver a killing blow or be spent to get rid of 2 creatures.
It is definitely about preference, but do people play Incinerate in their cube? Of course they do, even though it costs 100% more mana than Lightning Bolt does. But by your logic no one should want to play anything else that gave you less efficiency than LB, which is absurd since nothing does.
2 mana for 3 damage is still a good price. If they made control magic for 1UU the original control magic would still be priced efficiently. I have a decent amount of control support in my red section, and I've never found that I'm yearning for 5 damage late-game with those decks. If I'm in aggro, I should just be playing a card that's good when I'm in the aggro session of the gamestate, instead of a card that is really terrible until I've run out of steam. If I had a good seventh card in my opener, I might not have run out of steam to begin with.
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Someone I've been drafting with has mentioned tht I cut hymn. To be fair, he's also suggesting that I cut fireblast for being broken too so I'm not that into listening to him.
Some good discussions. As for citation, I'm just recalling discussions from around here when I started, or from research before I built my cube. So to be fair, I've never had any X spells in my cube from the beginning on this basis. Perhaps I'll throw one in and see how it plays out.
I lean more towards the side that the flexibility is worth more. Lightning Bolt is an amazing card (and I do believe is subjectively better than any X spell) and is significantly more efficient than an X spell, but there are creatures that won't die to a single bolt. Something like Fireball might not be as efficient, but it has the potential to kill almost everything, and scales as the game goes on. If it's in your opening hand, it might be right to pay 3 mana to kill a 2-drop. And if you draw it on turn 10, you have a lot more options.
My cube is currently a bit slower, so i suspect they will be better in my cube.
Illuminate - Fun in slower formats, but paying 4RU to deal 1 damage and draw a card?
I think that is the trap with the kicker(s) on this card; assuming you need to use it to get maximum value. If you are looking at that cost, you probably should be paying 5R and taking out a bigger threat instead. If you were to play Illuminate, I suspect that just paying xR is the right choice more than 80% of the time.
A card that obscure needs card tags, but anyway it probably isn't. You have to sac 2 guys to make it useful (mogg war marshal) and then you have to hope it gets through.
Is Rivals' Duel any good? I suspect sometimes you will just remove their second best creature but could take out both if they took some damage during the combat phase. Not sure how often the 'non same creature type' will put a crimp in your plans though.
Illuminate - Fun in slower formats, but paying 4RU to deal 1 damage and draw a card?
I think that is the trap with the kicker(s) on this card; assuming you need to use it to get maximum value. If you are looking at that cost, you probably should be paying 5R and taking out a bigger threat instead. If you were to play Illuminate, I suspect that just paying xR is the right choice more than 80% of the time.
In this case, the maximum value is what would make me want to play the card when the front end is worse than a Blaze. Most X spells will be cast for the straight X damage more than 80% of the time, so it's the other less than 20% that
will be the reason it gets included or not.
That's fair, and Blaze is hands down the better card. The comment was more about assessing Illuminate on its own merits and that it shouldn't cause 'feel bads' because you didn't kick it. I'd still take Heat Ray over it, because the instant speed is going to be a factor much more than the times when you could kick Illuminate. If you don't care about whether they target players, then of course you wouldn't consider either.
Is Rivals' Duel any good? I suspect sometimes you will just remove their second best creature but could take out both if they took some damage during the combat phase. Not sure how often the 'non same creature type' will put a crimp in your plans though.
Oh my God! I must find a spot for this card in my cube's multiplayer section... pretty sweet
A card that obscure needs card tags, but anyway it probably isn't. You have to sac 2 guys to make it useful (mogg war marshal) and then you have to hope it gets through.
This card basically reads 4/4 for 2R with an enter the battlefield trigger of sacrificing a creature. Getting this turn 3 can be a beating and late game if you can sacrifice 2 creatures a 7/7 is nothing to scoff at. Then again, if you draw this on an empty board you are screwed.
But the dream of turn 2 this thing as a 4/4 sacking a mana dork lives on in my head. The better you can use exploit triggers the better this gets in your cube.
re: Rivals' Duel -- two big qualms with the card are:
1. It punishes players for something they normally have no reason to care about (having different creature types)
2. A lot of old cards don't have Oracle-accurate types anyway (can Mother of Runes fight Pianna, Nomad Captain? Dauthi Horror says "beast" on the card but it isn't?)
Though the Mardu guy does a bad Flametongue Kavu impression, that still might be enough to make him playable. I'm considering Bloodfire Enforcers to support spells matters archetypes. And then terra ravager seems like it could be a good late game beater and the Shaman has an interesting effect.
I don't think any of those would be unreasonable in a 600+ card cube, but wouldn't jump for any much earlier.
Enforcers and Ravager are usually probably just worse than other big stupid fat creatures like Bloodfray Giant and Sprinting Warbrute, Shaman and Enforcers rely on too many things going right to justify their costs, and Heart-Piercer is competing with Stalking Yeti for 4th best card with that effect (after Flametongue Kavu, Fire Imp and Murderous Redcap).
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I don't play Propaganda because I find that annoying/unfun, sitting behind that and the game dragging on tends to reduce my will to play. but blowing stuff up or having a strong creature is fine. I hate discarding cards with a pasion, but Hymn is a good card and sometimes making a player discard is the only way to get rid of something.
Since I play in a more FFA multiplayer environment, Overrun and Tromp the Domains are both hugely wanted for Green. we even have Stampede in the deck as well. giving multiple creatures pump and trample is just too good to get damage through.
in 1on1 I can understand they may be less good/valuable but i think having 1 pumpity team pump is worth in a cube.
Whobetta's Peasant Cube
My MTGSalvation Cube Thread (last updated 6/29/15)
MY Cube Page
Taking Blaze as an example (as it is pretty much the simplest of the bunch), you would have to pay four times the mana to match the damage output of a Lightning Bolt or Lava Spike, 5 mana to match a Lightning Blast or Stoke the Flames and 6 mana to match a Lava Axe/ Burning Fields.
This means that an xR spell is behind the curve consistently until you hit seven mana, and if you are looking to spend 7 or more mana on a burn finisher... there are better options.
The only fireball spell I can think of that breaks this flaw is Crater's Claws, which is not in our card pool
If you cube with Pyroclasm effects and more red midrange creatures, one or two x spells are solid. If red is mostly just a Jackal Pup color, they're not cubeable cards.
Also, yeah, Rolling Thunder followed by Fireball followed by a bunch of things you should never consider.
While things like Lightning bolt and Lightning Blast are more "efficient" neither of those will win you a game when you top deck them and your opponent is at 5+ life and you have at least say 8 mana in play.
Sure that is a rare scenario, but let's also say you draw Fireball in your opening hand. You will probably tend to hold on to it longer than if you had a Lightning Bolt in your hand. The LB would be used to get rid of the first problem creature or whatever is put on the board you don't want there. The fireball may stay in your hand biding its time to deliver a killing blow or be spent to get rid of 2 creatures.
It is definitely about preference, but do people play Incinerate in their cube? Of course they do, even though it costs 100% more mana than Lightning Bolt does. But by your logic no one should want to play anything else that gave you less efficiency than LB, which is absurd since nothing does.
Whobetta's Peasant Cube
My MTGSalvation Cube Thread (last updated 6/29/15)
MY Cube Page
2 mana for 3 damage is still a good price. If they made control magic for 1UU the original control magic would still be priced efficiently. I have a decent amount of control support in my red section, and I've never found that I'm yearning for 5 damage late-game with those decks. If I'm in aggro, I should just be playing a card that's good when I'm in the aggro session of the gamestate, instead of a card that is really terrible until I've run out of steam. If I had a good seventh card in my opener, I might not have run out of steam to begin with.
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Someone I've been drafting with has mentioned tht I cut hymn. To be fair, he's also suggesting that I cut fireblast for being broken too so I'm not that into listening to him.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
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Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
Mono-red isn't exactly in need of extra support, and for every other deck it's going to be harder to cast than Blast
I lean more towards the side that the flexibility is worth more. Lightning Bolt is an amazing card (and I do believe is subjectively better than any X spell) and is significantly more efficient than an X spell, but there are creatures that won't die to a single bolt. Something like Fireball might not be as efficient, but it has the potential to kill almost everything, and scales as the game goes on. If it's in your opening hand, it might be right to pay 3 mana to kill a 2-drop. And if you draw it on turn 10, you have a lot more options.
My cube is currently a bit slower, so i suspect they will be better in my cube.
I think that is the trap with the kicker(s) on this card; assuming you need to use it to get maximum value. If you are looking at that cost, you probably should be paying 5R and taking out a bigger threat instead. If you were to play Illuminate, I suspect that just paying xR is the right choice more than 80% of the time.
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My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
That's fair, and Blaze is hands down the better card. The comment was more about assessing Illuminate on its own merits and that it shouldn't cause 'feel bads' because you didn't kick it. I'd still take Heat Ray over it, because the instant speed is going to be a factor much more than the times when you could kick Illuminate. If you don't care about whether they target players, then of course you wouldn't consider either.
Oh my God! I must find a spot for this card in my cube's multiplayer section... pretty sweet
Whobetta's Peasant Cube
My MTGSalvation Cube Thread (last updated 6/29/15)
MY Cube Page
True Thunder-Thrash Elder. I keep assuming everyone has auto card anywhere.
This card basically reads 4/4 for 2R with an enter the battlefield trigger of sacrificing a creature. Getting this turn 3 can be a beating and late game if you can sacrifice 2 creatures a 7/7 is nothing to scoff at. Then again, if you draw this on an empty board you are screwed.
But the dream of turn 2 this thing as a 4/4 sacking a mana dork lives on in my head. The better you can use exploit triggers the better this gets in your cube.
My 540 CU/be thread
Late game as a vanilla 7+ power guy... maybe?
re: Rivals' Duel -- two big qualms with the card are:
1. It punishes players for something they normally have no reason to care about (having different creature types)
2. A lot of old cards don't have Oracle-accurate types anyway (can Mother of Runes fight Pianna, Nomad Captain? Dauthi Horror says "beast" on the card but it isn't?)
On that same token, Thunder-Thrash Elder doesn't look good. I still don't think the "Sacrifice deck" is an actual reasonable thing.
Though the Mardu guy does a bad Flametongue Kavu impression, that still might be enough to make him playable. I'm considering Bloodfire Enforcers to support spells matters archetypes. And then terra ravager seems like it could be a good late game beater and the Shaman has an interesting effect.
Enforcers and Ravager are usually probably just worse than other big stupid fat creatures like Bloodfray Giant and Sprinting Warbrute, Shaman and Enforcers rely on too many things going right to justify their costs, and Heart-Piercer is competing with Stalking Yeti for 4th best card with that effect (after Flametongue Kavu, Fire Imp and Murderous Redcap).