I don't really support black aggro either way just aristocrats, but Taskmaster never seems like he's going to get more than one guy back anyway.
Anyone have experience either way?
I've been looking for a card to cut for Order of Midnight and saw your question, so I swapped out Eternal Taskmaster before my draft yesterday. I was actually lucky enough to snag Order myself during the draft, and I have to say I was really happy with the switch - At no point in any of the games would I have preferred Taskmaster, but Order got in there for a bunch of damage. I'm keeping this change.
My experience was probably skewed by my deck and what it was capable of, but I think the 2/2 flier is better than the 2/3 ETB tapped. And you're probably right that Taskmaster will usually only get one thing back.
And just so you don't think my deck was too OP, I lost a multiplayer game (odd number of drafters, so we had both duels and multiplayer) to a kicked Untamed Kavu wearing Swiftfoot Boots and Loxodon Warhammer while using Rogue's Passage for guaranteed damage. I had removal in hand but was stopped by hexproof, I was swinging with fear and flying but the damage was negated by her lifelink, my nonevasive creatures couldn't attack without gaining her more life from the vigilant Kavu, and I eventually died after three swings. Had it been a duel, I would have been fine, but because I had been splitting early damage, she was able to stabilize at 3 life. It was a pretty epic game, though. Really fun.
I understand the 2/3 body for 1B of Eternal Taskmaster is probably the main draw and possibly needed for critical aggro mass. I was a big fan of Woebearer though, so I wonder how much the extra three mana matters, considering you get evasion, an untapped blocker on cast, and the recursive ability for free (it becomes a net mana gain after the first trigger). Yeah, it's super under the curve, but on the plus side, you're a lot more likely to have stuff to recur on turn six than on turn three. Does the need for a semi-efficient aggro beater outweigh all that?
To help push spells-matter, would you run Cryptic Serpent in your package? There is this excellent group of regulars but I rarely see the Serpent included, despite the fact that it offers Gurmag Angler-like stats.
I played Cryptic Serpent for a while, but with all the spells matter support we've gotten in recent sets I often cut it even when I was in spells matter. There's limited creature slots in spells matter, and it's pretty low on the list of payoffs for it. Pteramander and the x/4 drakes are almost always better in a dedicated spells matter list due to evasion, and they also don't have as bad anti-synergy with the token makers (which are typically my first choice for payoffs), not to mention any high quality UR creatures you want to play outside of payoffs (FTK, Clone, Mulldrifter, etc.). We just have too many good creature spells matter payoffs for it to make the cut, especially in smaller cubes.
How much Delve mana would it take for you to consider not autoincluding Gurmag Angler or Treasure Cruise in a blue or black deck respectively?
Let's say Treasure Cruise was U12. Would you still play it?
If Gurmag was B10, would you still play it? B12?
There is a point where these cards become legitimately unplayable, and the point where they're at now where their delve costs don't matter at all and you just slam 1-2 mana 5/5 and draw 3. I'm looking for the correctly balanced number.
A 40 card deck is going to have 33-34 cards on turn 0. Assuming you kept 2-3 lands, and run at least 10 creatures, keeping 1 or 2 of those in your starting hand, about 24 of those cards in your deck are gonna stick on the board when you play them. Without self-mill, it's gonna be hard to hit 10 cards in the graveyard before a 5/5 is just 'on curve' on turn 5 or 6. You get the benefit of mana efficiency, but are incredibly weak to bounce. at 10B, you're not gonna recast that for 1 or 2 until the game is very nearly over.
I think the math works against the delve cards once you increase each price by about 2. You only have so much deck, and you still want to get SOME value out of your cards, unless you want to self-mill turbo those suckers out, in which case, you might have better options (reanimator perhaps).
A 40 card deck is going to have 33-34 cards on turn 0. Assuming you kept 2-3 lands, and run at least 10 creatures, keeping 1 or 2 of those in your starting hand, about 24 of those cards in your deck are gonna stick on the board when you play them. Without self-mill, it's gonna be hard to hit 10 cards in the graveyard before a 5/5 is just 'on curve' on turn 5 or 6. You get the benefit of mana efficiency, but are incredibly weak to bounce. at 10B, you're not gonna recast that for 1 or 2 until the game is very nearly over.
I think the math works against the delve cards once you increase each price by about 2. You only have so much deck, and you still want to get SOME value out of your cards, unless you want to self-mill turbo those suckers out, in which case, you might have better options (reanimator perhaps).
My thinking is that a few turns in it's not unreasonable to have 4-5-6 cards in the graveyard already, so you'd still be able to cast them reasonably often.
My goal would be to have a card like Gurmag actually cost 5~ most of the time, with the added bonus of getting a discount if you draft dredge/self-mill. As opposed to how it is now, where you just pay 1-2 mana for Gurmag on average. I want delve to actually be a cost, not just pretend mana.
I want a player to see both Juzam Djinn and Gurmag in a pack and have it be an actual decision.
The CMC I have Gurmag at now is B11. Haven't seen it in a draft yet.
Angler is reasonable at 6B. You could put it at 7B and have it be decent, but anything after that is just bad outside of incredibly dedicated self-mill. A 4 mana 5/5 that can't be played till probably at least turn 6 is suspect, and there's better late game choices if you want a random beater. Angler gets cut from a number of my creature heavy black decks already; jumping through hoops for a late game vanilla is not really worth it. And once you start forcing players to exile their entire yard to get an okay card, any type of graveyard recursion becomes significantly worse.
Cruise is similar: fine at 8U, pretty suspect at 9U, and bad at more.
If you need to nerf either card by more than 1cmc you're probably just better off playing a non-delve version of the effect, as neither card is that good of archetype support anyways.
In constructed Pauper I could support 3 Gurmag Anglers with no fetches or self mill or anything, just over the course of a normal game.
So I don't really understand why one would cut Gurmag Angler from a black deck, at the very least the first one is EZ.
I also don't think that the card would magically be unplayable if it was 2 CMC higher. There is a number where it becomes unplayable but I don't think 8 or 9 CMC is that number.
Constructed Pauper (presumably UB?) is a vastly different format and deck from a 16+ creature aggressive C/Ube deck.
A 4cmc 5/5 is an okay card in peasant. Good, but often not worth playing considering the overall power of 4 drops. In an aggressive deck you've commonly played 2-3 cards on t3, which means you need a decent draw and have all of your plays in yard to get a 4cmc 5/5. On t4 you almost always want to play a 4 drop or 2 2 drops (and you build your curve towards that), but Angler is neither. And if you have only an Angler in play t4 as aggro you essentially lose on the spot to removal.
So Angler doesn't cost 4 until t5, where it's an okay card, but worse than a 4cmc 5/5. Optimistically it can cost 3 and you can go 3 + 2 here, but that requires all of your cards on the draw.
How about t6? Lets say it costs 2-3; you've played a very good card, but you're t6 in aggro and you're playing a non-evasive threat that doesn't help get your other guys through. Your opponent is also dropping a 4-6 drop here, which all at least deal with Angler (not to mention removal/bounce).
T7+? Lets say it costs 1. You have no other cards in hand besides Angler so it doesn't matter it costs 1. Not to mention a 5/5 doesn't exactly push through damage at this point of the game.
The higher the CMC gets the later you can play it. The later you play it the weaker both the cheapness and body gets.
In your particular environment, (where afaik aggro doesn't exist, nothing uses the graveyard, and a 5/5 never falls off) it might be playable at 11B; however, in a typical peasant environment if a card is a 5cmc 5/5 most of the time you cut it.
I'm talking about Pauper MBC. Magic players are in denial about what their best cards are so ironically no one runs Gurmag Angler in their black decks in favor of Phyrexian Rager or whatever garbage. Therefore it's a good idea to run 3 of them. You don't need any dredge or self mill or fetches to fuel Gurmag, you can fairly easily support them off of just incidental sign in bloods and removal spells and having your own creatures die or get countered over the course of a normal game.
At the very least you can support 1 in a draft deck. I find it hard to believe that it's ever a good decision to cut one from your draft deck.
I'm looking for 4-5-6 mana 5/5's. I'm okay with that. Not everything has to be some max power stat monster.
I do have some graveyard synergies but not running Gurmag because of them seems wrong. It's wrong for the same reason that, "I'm not running this Wrath because I have good creatures" is wrong. You always run the Wrath.
If not everything has to be a good card, it's hard to communicate with you effectively. Especially when the tradeoff for good isnt even to be interesting.
I am not in denial about a 5 mana 5/5 being unplayable in cu/be.
If not everything has to be a good card, it's hard to communicate with you effectively. Especially when the tradeoff for good isnt even to be interesting.
I am not in denial about a 5 mana 5/5 being unplayable in cu/be.
My question was about at what point does the Delve cost become prohibitive and these cards stop becoming autoincludes. I get that everything that's not Mulldrifter, flametounge kavu, sprout swarm, and pack rat is considered "literally unplayable garbage" but that's not my question. I don't care about how good a card is, I cut Thraben Inspector for Shield Bearer.
I'll just stick with 11B for now. Well, 10BB since I've been lying this whole time and the card I'm actually concerned about is Tombstalker. I figure Gurmag and Cruise are reasonable facsimiles.
You can reasonably get 5-6 cards in the yard moderately early, and if you're playing some synergies you get rewarded for it with a BB 5/5 flier. Seemingly it should be 5-6-7~ mana creature on average, which is what I want a 5/5 flier to cost. I want Juzam Djinn to be equally as pickable as Tombstalker.
I find it super interesting that a structured post about Cryptic Serpent gets one reply but fake Gurmag Angler that's actually Tombstalker from SaltMaster of all people, is the highlight of peasant talk. Looks like controversy sells.
Well, it's not that interesting since I'm on my way out of this forum anyway. Enjoy your imaginary card discussions, I'll be going to a place that entertains discussion on real cube cards.
I find it super interesting that a structured post about Cryptic Serpent gets one reply but fake Gurmag Angler that's actually Tombstalker from SaltMaster of all people, is the highlight of peasant talk. Looks like controversy sells.
Well, it's not that interesting since I'm on my way out of this forum anyway. Enjoy your imaginary card discussions, I'll be going to a place that entertains discussion on real cube cards.
Last time this point was brought up about fixed Skullclamp, someone else said, "Oh come on, this dying forum gets like one post a day." You think that I'm hogging the discussion or whatever, in reality this place is a ghost town and I'm one of the few remaining active posters.
I got my answer on delve. I was told that the delve cards would be unplayable garbage at more than a 2 CMC increase, so I added 4 CMC. There.
Me having a discussion about delve isn't stopping you from posting about Cryptic Serpent.
Cryptic Serpent seems like a fine card. Seems like a solid EZCast beater like Gurmag. I would run it in my cube if I didn't hate the vast majority of art on new cards but blue Gurmag seems fun.
If you're looking for an opinion on how good it is, I wouldn't know. I like Magnivore despite being told that card is unplayable garbage and they're kind of similar.
Yeah, I tried being pleasant again but he fell into the same pattern of behavior. I finally blocked him.
For whatever reason, our aside (which up to that point was tolerable) pushed pyredream to quit the community. Which is fine, I suppose, but it certainly came out of nowhere.
In any case, hopefully we can get back to our regularly scheduled programming
Yeah, I tried being pleasant again but he fell into the same pattern of behavior. I finally blocked him.
For whatever reason, our aside (which up to that point was tolerable) pushed pyredream to quit the community. Which is fine, I suppose, but it certainly came out of nowhere.
In any case, hopefully we can get back to our regularly scheduled programming
I don't block anyone or beg the mods to ban people that I disagree with but okay.
From my perspective, it's hard to have discussions when every card has to be The Best and daring to suggest a card like Tidal Wave or mentioning that Dark Depths was intended to actually cost 30 mana is met with accusations of me being a troll.
If asking about changing the CMC on Gurmag Angler and then telling you that I lied and it's actually Tombstalker is enough to get you to quit the forums, why is it my fault? Aren't you just too sensitive?
So whatever. It's not that I don't value everyone else's opinion because I don't consider any of you to be playing ~~~REAL~~~ Magic anyways, it's that I consider your opinions and do the exact opposite of what I'm told because I disagree about everything.
For example, my favorite Magic card is Dash Hopes. The reason everyone hates it is the reason why in my opinion it's a well designed card.
Have your opinions, but you're going to insult people if you paint such broad strokes about what "Magic players" do/think. It's not being brutally honest or groundbreaking to make such inflammatory statements, it just comes off as brazen, condescending and inconsiderate.
I personally think the whole "filling half a thread with posts about how we blocked you" thing is a bit clique-y for my tastes, but you've given the other posters good reason to do. Try starting with diplomatic, clearly-reasoned statements and see where the discussion goes, rather than leading with click-bait style claims and then trying to defend yourself when people react.
I'm really curious about what you're trying to illustrate by comparing Dash Hopes with Carnage Tyrant. Care to elaborate?
I only follow this 'discussion' by reading quoted comments from you know who, but I think I can answer it for you.
Magic players hate the game and that's why Wizards replaced shroud with hexproof. And that's why Magic players, who hate the game, love cards like Carnage Tyrant because it has hexproof and can't be countered and thus is uninteractive and unfun. And that's why playing a card like Dash Hopes is like sprinkling holy water on a vampire to most Magic players because it's so damn interactive!!1 And, you know, Magic players HATE interactivity! Because they hate the game! Because they replaced shroud with hexproof! And everything Magic players hate is good for the game and that's why you should fill your cube with arcane cards and One with Nothing just because it's something Magic players hate.
I mean, that's bascially everything this guy has been saying over and over and over since he started posting in the peasant section of this forum (and I assume he posted the same nonsense elsewhere before). And that's all you'll ever hear from him.
I don't really support black aggro either way just aristocrats, but Taskmaster never seems like he's going to get more than one guy back anyway.
Anyone have experience either way?
My experience was probably skewed by my deck and what it was capable of, but I think the 2/2 flier is better than the 2/3 ETB tapped. And you're probably right that Taskmaster will usually only get one thing back.
As for my deck, it was a ridiculous mono-black deck with Cast Down, Doom Blade, Go for the Throat, Bontu's Monument, Ravenous Chupacabra, Shriekmaw, Skinrender, Vampire Sovereign, and Skull Collector. I had multiple games where I would Evoke Shriekmaw and then cast Supernatural Stamina or Undying Evil in response to the sac trigger. I have no idea how, in a 7-man pod, I was practically the only person drafting black, but it was awesome. Most of the games, I didn't really need recursion, but Order of Midnight was very useful as an evasive attacker.
And just so you don't think my deck was too OP, I lost a multiplayer game (odd number of drafters, so we had both duels and multiplayer) to a kicked Untamed Kavu wearing Swiftfoot Boots and Loxodon Warhammer while using Rogue's Passage for guaranteed damage. I had removal in hand but was stopped by hexproof, I was swinging with fear and flying but the damage was negated by her lifelink, my nonevasive creatures couldn't attack without gaining her more life from the vigilant Kavu, and I eventually died after three swings. Had it been a duel, I would have been fine, but because I had been splitting early damage, she was able to stabilize at 3 life. It was a pretty epic game, though. Really fun.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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To help push spells-matter, would you run Cryptic Serpent in your package? There is this excellent group of regulars but I rarely see the Serpent included, despite the fact that it offers Gurmag Angler-like stats.
Here's what I run for UR Spells Matter:
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
Let's say Treasure Cruise was U12. Would you still play it?
If Gurmag was B10, would you still play it? B12?
There is a point where these cards become legitimately unplayable, and the point where they're at now where their delve costs don't matter at all and you just slam 1-2 mana 5/5 and draw 3. I'm looking for the correctly balanced number.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I think the math works against the delve cards once you increase each price by about 2. You only have so much deck, and you still want to get SOME value out of your cards, unless you want to self-mill turbo those suckers out, in which case, you might have better options (reanimator perhaps).
My thinking is that a few turns in it's not unreasonable to have 4-5-6 cards in the graveyard already, so you'd still be able to cast them reasonably often.
My goal would be to have a card like Gurmag actually cost 5~ most of the time, with the added bonus of getting a discount if you draft dredge/self-mill. As opposed to how it is now, where you just pay 1-2 mana for Gurmag on average. I want delve to actually be a cost, not just pretend mana.
I want a player to see both Juzam Djinn and Gurmag in a pack and have it be an actual decision.
The CMC I have Gurmag at now is B11. Haven't seen it in a draft yet.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Cruise is similar: fine at 8U, pretty suspect at 9U, and bad at more.
If you need to nerf either card by more than 1cmc you're probably just better off playing a non-delve version of the effect, as neither card is that good of archetype support anyways.
So I don't really understand why one would cut Gurmag Angler from a black deck, at the very least the first one is EZ.
I also don't think that the card would magically be unplayable if it was 2 CMC higher. There is a number where it becomes unplayable but I don't think 8 or 9 CMC is that number.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
A 4cmc 5/5 is an okay card in peasant. Good, but often not worth playing considering the overall power of 4 drops. In an aggressive deck you've commonly played 2-3 cards on t3, which means you need a decent draw and have all of your plays in yard to get a 4cmc 5/5. On t4 you almost always want to play a 4 drop or 2 2 drops (and you build your curve towards that), but Angler is neither. And if you have only an Angler in play t4 as aggro you essentially lose on the spot to removal.
So Angler doesn't cost 4 until t5, where it's an okay card, but worse than a 4cmc 5/5. Optimistically it can cost 3 and you can go 3 + 2 here, but that requires all of your cards on the draw.
How about t6? Lets say it costs 2-3; you've played a very good card, but you're t6 in aggro and you're playing a non-evasive threat that doesn't help get your other guys through. Your opponent is also dropping a 4-6 drop here, which all at least deal with Angler (not to mention removal/bounce).
T7+? Lets say it costs 1. You have no other cards in hand besides Angler so it doesn't matter it costs 1. Not to mention a 5/5 doesn't exactly push through damage at this point of the game.
The higher the CMC gets the later you can play it. The later you play it the weaker both the cheapness and body gets.
In your particular environment, (where afaik aggro doesn't exist, nothing uses the graveyard, and a 5/5 never falls off) it might be playable at 11B; however, in a typical peasant environment if a card is a 5cmc 5/5 most of the time you cut it.
At the very least you can support 1 in a draft deck. I find it hard to believe that it's ever a good decision to cut one from your draft deck.
I'm looking for 4-5-6 mana 5/5's. I'm okay with that. Not everything has to be some max power stat monster.
I do have some graveyard synergies but not running Gurmag because of them seems wrong. It's wrong for the same reason that, "I'm not running this Wrath because I have good creatures" is wrong. You always run the Wrath.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I am not in denial about a 5 mana 5/5 being unplayable in cu/be.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My question was about at what point does the Delve cost become prohibitive and these cards stop becoming autoincludes. I get that everything that's not Mulldrifter, flametounge kavu, sprout swarm, and pack rat is considered "literally unplayable garbage" but that's not my question. I don't care about how good a card is, I cut Thraben Inspector for Shield Bearer.
I'll just stick with 11B for now. Well, 10BB since I've been lying this whole time and the card I'm actually concerned about is Tombstalker. I figure Gurmag and Cruise are reasonable facsimiles.
You can reasonably get 5-6 cards in the yard moderately early, and if you're playing some synergies you get rewarded for it with a BB 5/5 flier. Seemingly it should be 5-6-7~ mana creature on average, which is what I want a 5/5 flier to cost. I want Juzam Djinn to be equally as pickable as Tombstalker.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Well, it's not that interesting since I'm on my way out of this forum anyway. Enjoy your imaginary card discussions, I'll be going to a place that entertains discussion on real cube cards.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
Last time this point was brought up about fixed Skullclamp, someone else said, "Oh come on, this dying forum gets like one post a day." You think that I'm hogging the discussion or whatever, in reality this place is a ghost town and I'm one of the few remaining active posters.
I got my answer on delve. I was told that the delve cards would be unplayable garbage at more than a 2 CMC increase, so I added 4 CMC. There.
Me having a discussion about delve isn't stopping you from posting about Cryptic Serpent.
Cryptic Serpent seems like a fine card. Seems like a solid EZCast beater like Gurmag. I would run it in my cube if I didn't hate the vast majority of art on new cards but blue Gurmag seems fun.
If you're looking for an opinion on how good it is, I wouldn't know. I like Magnivore despite being told that card is unplayable garbage and they're kind of similar.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
"I get that everything that's not Mulldrifter, flametounge kavu, sprout swarm, and pack rat is considered "literally unplayable garbage"
You really just cant help yourself.
Sorry everybody else
Trying to be the least bit civil with you is one of the most punishing experiences.
Enjoy your esoteric understanding of magic
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
For whatever reason, our aside (which up to that point was tolerable) pushed pyredream to quit the community. Which is fine, I suppose, but it certainly came out of nowhere.
In any case, hopefully we can get back to our regularly scheduled programming
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I don't block anyone or beg the mods to ban people that I disagree with but okay.
From my perspective, it's hard to have discussions when every card has to be The Best and daring to suggest a card like Tidal Wave or mentioning that Dark Depths was intended to actually cost 30 mana is met with accusations of me being a troll.
If asking about changing the CMC on Gurmag Angler and then telling you that I lied and it's actually Tombstalker is enough to get you to quit the forums, why is it my fault? Aren't you just too sensitive?
So whatever. It's not that I don't value everyone else's opinion because I don't consider any of you to be playing ~~~REAL~~~ Magic anyways, it's that I consider your opinions and do the exact opposite of what I'm told because I disagree about everything.
For example, my favorite Magic card is Dash Hopes. The reason everyone hates it is the reason why in my opinion it's a well designed card.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
Because it has interaction built into it. And fun, fair, interactive Magic is like holy water to a vampire to most Magic players.
Compare Dash Hopes to a card like Carnage Tyrant.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Have your opinions, but you're going to insult people if you paint such broad strokes about what "Magic players" do/think. It's not being brutally honest or groundbreaking to make such inflammatory statements, it just comes off as brazen, condescending and inconsiderate.
I personally think the whole "filling half a thread with posts about how we blocked you" thing is a bit clique-y for my tastes, but you've given the other posters good reason to do. Try starting with diplomatic, clearly-reasoned statements and see where the discussion goes, rather than leading with click-bait style claims and then trying to defend yourself when people react.
I'm really curious about what you're trying to illustrate by comparing Dash Hopes with Carnage Tyrant. Care to elaborate?
Draft it on Cubetutor here, and CubeCobra here.
Treasure Cruise did nothing wrong.
I only follow this 'discussion' by reading quoted comments from you know who, but I think I can answer it for you.
Magic players hate the game and that's why Wizards replaced shroud with hexproof. And that's why Magic players, who hate the game, love cards like Carnage Tyrant because it has hexproof and can't be countered and thus is uninteractive and unfun. And that's why playing a card like Dash Hopes is like sprinkling holy water on a vampire to most Magic players because it's so damn interactive!!1 And, you know, Magic players HATE interactivity! Because they hate the game! Because they replaced shroud with hexproof! And everything Magic players hate is good for the game and that's why you should fill your cube with arcane cards and One with Nothing just because it's something Magic players hate.
I mean, that's bascially everything this guy has been saying over and over and over since he started posting in the peasant section of this forum (and I assume he posted the same nonsense elsewhere before). And that's all you'll ever hear from him.
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