0. GOALS, RULES OF THE CUBE AND 'KNOW THY PLAYGROUP'
The main reasons I built my Cube:
- to enable new players to pick up MTG, to learn to Draft and to play.
- to play with my more experienced friends, have it be interesting for them.
- my playgroup is a constant few and many fluctuating or newer players.
- online legality, no un-cards; I might have a small conspiracy package to bring in, but that's neither here nor there.
As you can tell it's really a balancing act for this Cube, granted Peasant is best suited for it.
These are all great reasons to cube, and each point comes with the 'free' caveat.
1. MODULARITY
I want to make a 360 C/Ube (for smaller playgroups) with a 180 expansion package (for larger drafts). So a 540 Cube total.
I know it'll be a complicated thing to build, so any suggestions how to approach it, to keep it balanced are much appreciated.
I would honestly copy someone's cube here, play it a few times, and then figure out some minor changes. Not every cube is perfect--in fact, you'll find issues with every cube because you're a person with preferences and it would be weirder to perfectly align with someone else's thoughts--but at the same time a lot of these cubes have a heavy community-influence inherently due to the discussion that happens online and off, and it can be trusted that there has been plenty of work going into these cubes. You might find some stuff you don't agree with, but rarely is there a card in these lists that will make you **** an eyebrow.
2. COLOUR BALANCE
How do you go about when you feel like one colour is stronger than the rest, do you prefer cutting from it or giving answers to other colours?
What unexpected results has that yielded?
I think this is generally less of a problem in peasant than it would be in other cubes, but even then I think a cube's powerlevel is consistently fairly flat. Most of the time the best colors/decks are run by the best players/drafters, so note what wins but more importantly note who is winning.
3. ARCHETYPES
I want to refresh Draft Archetypes within my Cube.
What are Archetypes you like in your Cubes that you feel work well?
Do you create Primary and Secondary Archetypes for all colour pairs?
If not I would be very interested in hearing how you choose them.
This is kinda why I like copying someone else's cube, as they've already done a lot of that work but seriously, you'll notice trends.
4. DRAFT ENVIRONMENT
It used to be Power first, but now I want to create a complex and deep draft environment.
Additionally I want to create a banlist (e.g. Isochron Scepter, Demonic Tutor, Loxodon Warhammer,...)
So how do you go about creating a base idea for the environment or the Cube Outline?
How do you think about Ally vs. Enemy colour pairs? Do you consider Shards and Clans?
There is definitely a thread that covers this in general, and I'm pretty sure Phitt (EDIT: thanks for clarification there) made a thread where they compiled all the cubes on this subforum and made an 'average' list, that can help give you an idea of what cards are powerful as they might only show up in a few lists.
5. LANDS
I used to have cycle of Painlands as support for aggro. Now with the full cycle of Fastlands are they the better choice?
For the Purists do you feel like aggro is good enough without rare land support?
How about Scry lands for control? Or how about giving different Guilds different lands?
I also felt like my Cube used to have too much fixing. Where do you consider the sweet spot?
Running painlands seems like a fine option for helping fixing, though due to the lack of good fixing it won't just be aggro taking those cards. They will be helped the most, but if you're getting greedy then they are a priority.
@Tornick21 I've found UB to be strictly better then UW, reasons being UB shares a bigger pool of Card draw, Removal, even Boardwipes and better Finishers (Havoc Demon, Rakshasa Grave Titan). UW seems better as a tempo deck, since it has more pressuring early drops and more evasion. Might just be my Cube though.
While I agree Isochron is somewhat easy to deal with a lot of newer players overlook Disenchant type effects and it keeps stealing games with cards like Magma Jet, Counterspell, Diabolic Edict, etc. It often becomes a 3 for 1 at the very least. Again it could be a playgroup specific thing, but I will put it on my banlist for now (I might test it again someday though).
@leelue @guitarspider I agree with you that , but I do think learning from both their failures and successes is a smart thing. They have a lot of people, time and money invested in creating draft environments it would be a waste not to use them as a resource. As for Ravnica, while I agree it was a very pigeonholed set, I believe specifically for my use some pointers in the Cube are more beneficiary than not. I will try to keep in mind not to overdo it though. Speaking of, has anyone here ever made a very defined draft experience?
@squirelly @Salmo Thanks for the welcomes and for taking your time to respond.
I've already got a clear idea what I want to make and I will make a seperate thread for my Cube soon enough. Hopefully I will have the organization skill to keep it posted and to leave as much hopefully useful information and findings there.
1. What makes you think about it again? Did you find it hard to keep balanced? Was the Cube a completely different experience small/large?
2. You are talking a lot of sense. I have to say my experiences are quite similar. Like said it could just be my issue comes from too many removal in black and not enough resilient creatures. Or the fact that I prefer black myself...
3. I'm very interested in how your U/W Control will work out. From my experience the lack draw in White makes it much weaker for control compared to Black. Maybe defensive creatures are it's forte. UW Tempo Fliers usually worked great for me though.
I looked at your list and don't really see a big support for UB Artifact, even though it seems interesting. I would guess it can be quite parasitic.
The rest seem pretty much what I've already been using.
4. I saw your power level is pretty high... You've never thought UR Tinker/Isochron is too strong? Loxodon player as a winnning the lotery? I guess it comes down to the playgroup. Maybe regular playgroups allows time for players to adapt and prioritize hate cards more...
5. How do you think it influences aggro? Both Karoo and Khan are Control Lands, I would guess it would slow the format down a little.
Thank you as well for giving some great insights.
1. I changed my cube structure up mostly to try new things and keep my cube feeling new and fresh for my drafters. I find if I leave the cube the same for too long, it minimizes the fun experience of cards you haven't used and prevents that 'wow' factor. Balancing works itself out after a few drafts as you notice the same type of deck will win if needed nerf something or adjust the archetype.
2. Black's balance was difficult to find but i found that following i believe it was odyssey's or zendikar's structure (its been a while since I looked back on my OG notes) for black led to a nice balance which lead to a nicer balance in removal vs not removal.
3. Im actually phasing out fliers as an archetype as it led to too many non-games for those who drafted. this is an example of adjusting to my group. I keep logistics from each deck draft and it lead to was to often 1/3s and 0/4s
4. Hasnt been an issue yet. Maze has been the only card that has been complained about but I also abused the crap put of it all 4 matches soo
5. Aggro of all archtypes doesn't need help. Its really hard to slow down aggro in this format because of its consistency vs controls lack of. Yes if someone is trying 3 color aggro the lands will cause more of an issue but most aggro decks are 2 colors and the fixing isn't as needed in those decks. Lands haven't played to much of a hindrance in my experience as a cube manager.
There is definitely a thread that covers this in general, and I'm pretty sure Phitt (or was it Ulka? someone else?) made a thread where they compiled all the cubes on this subforum and made an 'average' list, that can help give you an idea of what cards are powerful as they might only show up in a few lists.
It was phitt!
Gotta make sure Phitt gets credit for his work on that!
I agree that it’s more a matter of cube construction, but that’s neither here nor there. How has Havic Demon played for you? I’ve been a little hesitant playing him. But I just added Indulgant atormentor and Fallen angel because of a lack of five drops, and may add the Havic demon for a similar reason.
0. GOALS, RULES OF THE CUBE AND 'KNOW THY PLAYGROUP'
The main reasons I built my Cube:
- to enable new players to pick up MTG, to learn to Draft and to play.
- to play with my more experienced friends, have it be interesting for them.
- my playgroup is a constant few and many fluctuating or newer players.
- online legality, no un-cards; I might have a small conspiracy package to bring in, but that's neither here nor there.
As you can tell it's really a balancing act for this Cube, granted Peasant is best suited for it.
There are no wrong reasons to cube. It's the most fun I've ever had playing Magic.
1. MODULARITY
I want to make a 360 C/Ube (for smaller playgroups) with a 180 expansion package (for larger drafts). So a 540 Cube total.
I know it'll be a complicated thing to build, so any suggestions how to approach it, to keep it balanced are much appreciated.
For peasant, I would suggest a 360 cube. I believe the power level starts to drop off significantly beyond that. I would even recommend dropping the add-on down from 540 to 450. A 540 peasant cube would be half filler, imo.
2. COLOUR BALANCE
How do you go about when you feel like one colour is stronger than the rest, do you prefer cutting from it or giving answers to other colours?
What unexpected results has that yielded?
I prefer providing other colors with answers to problems or overpowered colors/cards in the cube rather than trying to nerf that color or cut that card. I wouldn't go so far as to include specific sideboard cards like Pyroblast or something, though.
3. ARCHETYPES
I want to refresh Draft Archetypes within my Cube.
What are Archetypes you like in your Cubes that you feel work well?
Do you create Primary and Secondary Archetypes for all colour pairs?
If not I would be very interested in hearing how you choose them.
When building my peasant cube I didn't actually seek out specific archetypes. I mostly built the cube and let the archetypes happen. Most of my archetypes are generic and not specialized.
4. DRAFT ENVIRONMENT
It used to be Power first, but now I want to create a complex and deep draft environment.
Additionally I want to create a banlist (e.g. Isochron Scepter, Demonic Tutor, Loxodon Warhammer,...)
So how do you go about creating a base idea for the environment or the Cube Outline?
How do you think about Ally vs. Enemy colour pairs? Do you consider Shards and Clans?
I personally feel like power can help to add to a complex and deep draft environment. Players need to understand that these powerful cards exist and draft and play accordingly because of it. I do understand a ban list, though. Even my peasant cube, which includes powerful cards like Warhammer and Scepter, excludes cards like Sol Ring and Mana Drain.
I'd keep the guilds even across all ten. At 360, I'd go with 3 per. I wouldn't include the tri color cards in the initial 360. I'd consider them in the add-on.
5. LANDS
I used to have cycle of Painlands as support for aggro. Now with the full cycle of Fastlands are they the better choice?
For the Purists do you feel like aggro is good enough without rare land support?
How about Scry lands for control? Or how about giving different Guilds different lands?
I also felt like my Cube used to have too much fixing. Where do you consider the sweet spot?
I used to run pain lands in my peasant cube and I liked it, but it's a slippery slope. You start adding in the pain lands because they "feel" like they could be printed at uncommon and because you need untapped lands, and it's easy to start justifying adding in more and more rares to start filling holes that unfortunately can exist at the peasant rarity.
In my 360 I'm running the ten gain lands from Khans, the ten tri lands, the five Vivids as well as all the legal five color fixing lands. I haven't noticed that my decks lack for fixing options. If I added another cycle of ten, I'd mix and match Refuges, bounce lands, and other etbt duals.
I think aggro decks would appreciate untapped dual lands, but there are a few untapped five color lands that help those decks. Also peasant is typically very close to a slightly more powerful limited environment, so even running the all basics special can sometimes be ok for aggro decks.
Quote from xyape »" url
="/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/pauper-peasant-discussion/193990-the-peasant-cube-discussion-thread-c-u?comment=14276 »
has anyone here ever made a very defined draft experience?
I have a cube where every card in it directly supports a theme, be it a counters/proliferate strategy, 5 color, graveyard/discard/cycling, etc. Also, I have cards in multiples (1 2 or 3) in order to somewhat simulate real drafts and to also let people pull together "nuts" drafts (Dude, I got three thrummingbirds and arcbound workers) That one is also peasant.
I have a cube of all bad cards, and cards like fanning the flames are bombs in it. That one has rares, and just the other day I had a giant oyster in play where its two creature types were "oyster" and "giant". It was for legitimate strategic reasons, and only after I did it did I realize how perfect a moment we just created.
I think in a vacuum preacher is powerful, but I don’t think in play it will be consistently getting relevant creatures. Definetely worth testing though
How many creatures are irrelevant though? Most board states don't have random 1/1s lying around, and when they do it's still like "if you attack, I'll take your 1/1 and block so I can take your good guy next turn."
Seems overpowered when it doesn't die to me, unless you're getting basted by a flier and they have a spare wall or something
In the back and forth games that peasant breeds, I find that decks outside of Blue do tend to have an extra creature in play. (1/1s, mana dorks, random small creatures) When they don't, and it' late in the game when preacher will be strong, the player who has the extra resources is already winning. It does die to everything (not much said there as a lot of good creatures do, but not irrelevant) I do agree that over the course of the game Preacher can be instrumental to your victory, but giving your opponent decisions over the effect your cards have on the game has historically been weak in cube. With that said, I have been wrong about these cards in the past,(Desecration Demon in rare cubes) but it isn't often these cards play up to our expectations.
Do you really think that if you counted up every board state for a player they'd be more likely than not to have a creature that both players would consider irrelevant?
The person with more resources may have a random 1/1 they don't need, but the person short on resources is probably happy to take them as meat shields.
Maybe irrelevant was a poor word choice, but taking your opponents worst creature a turn after you play your dude seems underwhelming, if you can do it three or four times, sure, but how often is that going to be the case? How often will it stay in play that long? Is a three drop that just dies to removal all the time good? If it is, wouldn't Standard Bearer just be better?
In the games where your playing that card on the defense it's not helping you win the game, it's just buying you time, sometimes that's the only option, but I wouldn't play a card because it buys me a turn or two, it needs to do more. I could see it being strong against aggro, and there would be games where it's the best card in your deck, but on average, I think it would be underwhelming.
Yeah I'm not sure how desirable Preacher is to have in your cube.. I wonder if it will just either be too slow and do nothing, or it trades for a removal spell, or it just shuts down everything your opponent is trying to do.
Killing the preacher at instant speed gives the creature back though, so perhaps there is some interesting counterplay?
Yeah I'm not sure how desirable Preacher is to have in your cube.. I wonder if it will just either be too slow and do nothing, or it trades for a removal spell, or it just shuts down everything your opponent is trying to do.
Killing the preacher at instant speed gives the creature back though, so perhaps there is some interesting counterplay?
If my opponent needs to have an answer for my 3 drop before it untaps, then that's probably a good place for the 3 drop to be. I don't really sign on with the slowness aspect considering it costs 3, but you generally want to force your opponents to have answers.
I Mean that’s fair. I’m not sure if I’m sold. But we don’t have a lot of good three drops, and it seems like it can definitely be a threat, I would be willing to try it.
I Mean that’s fair. I’m not sure if I’m sold. But we don’t have a lot of good three drops, and it seems like it can definitely be a threat, I would be willing to try it.
If you have experience with Old Man of the Sea or in rare cubes Vedalken Shackles, then it plays similarly to those. That is not to say of the same power level--obviously vedalken shackles is better, and Old Man is too--but if you play either of those cards t3 then a lot of decks need answers for them right away or they lose.
Being a 1/1 and 1WW and not having control of the effect undoubtedly makes it worse than those two cards, but it's not too much of a logic leap to see how those cards play out when cast t3 and apply that logic to evaluating Preacher while understanding the real cons but also understanding that a con doesn't mean uncubeable.
It's a real downside as well, definitely a floor/ceiling card without a ton of stops in between. But your opponents don't always have removal because we're playing a card game and Preacher is pretty great then.
These are all great reasons to cube, and each point comes with the 'free' caveat.
I would honestly copy someone's cube here, play it a few times, and then figure out some minor changes. Not every cube is perfect--in fact, you'll find issues with every cube because you're a person with preferences and it would be weirder to perfectly align with someone else's thoughts--but at the same time a lot of these cubes have a heavy community-influence inherently due to the discussion that happens online and off, and it can be trusted that there has been plenty of work going into these cubes. You might find some stuff you don't agree with, but rarely is there a card in these lists that will make you **** an eyebrow.
I think this is generally less of a problem in peasant than it would be in other cubes, but even then I think a cube's powerlevel is consistently fairly flat. Most of the time the best colors/decks are run by the best players/drafters, so note what wins but more importantly note who is winning.
This is kinda why I like copying someone else's cube, as they've already done a lot of that work
There is definitely a thread that covers this in general, and I'm pretty sure Phitt (EDIT: thanks for clarification there) made a thread where they compiled all the cubes on this subforum and made an 'average' list, that can help give you an idea of what cards are powerful as they might only show up in a few lists.
Running painlands seems like a fine option for helping fixing, though due to the lack of good fixing it won't just be aggro taking those cards. They will be helped the most, but if you're getting greedy then they are a priority.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
While I agree Isochron is somewhat easy to deal with a lot of newer players overlook Disenchant type effects and it keeps stealing games with cards like Magma Jet, Counterspell, Diabolic Edict, etc. It often becomes a 3 for 1 at the very least. Again it could be a playgroup specific thing, but I will put it on my banlist for now (I might test it again someday though).
@leelue @guitarspider I agree with you that , but I do think learning from both their failures and successes is a smart thing. They have a lot of people, time and money invested in creating draft environments it would be a waste not to use them as a resource. As for Ravnica, while I agree it was a very pigeonholed set, I believe specifically for my use some pointers in the Cube are more beneficiary than not. I will try to keep in mind not to overdo it though. Speaking of, has anyone here ever made a very defined draft experience?
@squirelly @Salmo Thanks for the welcomes and for taking your time to respond.
I've already got a clear idea what I want to make and I will make a seperate thread for my Cube soon enough. Hopefully I will have the organization skill to keep it posted and to leave as much hopefully useful information and findings there.
1. I changed my cube structure up mostly to try new things and keep my cube feeling new and fresh for my drafters. I find if I leave the cube the same for too long, it minimizes the fun experience of cards you haven't used and prevents that 'wow' factor. Balancing works itself out after a few drafts as you notice the same type of deck will win if needed nerf something or adjust the archetype.
2. Black's balance was difficult to find but i found that following i believe it was odyssey's or zendikar's structure (its been a while since I looked back on my OG notes) for black led to a nice balance which lead to a nicer balance in removal vs not removal.
3. Im actually phasing out fliers as an archetype as it led to too many non-games for those who drafted. this is an example of adjusting to my group. I keep logistics from each deck draft and it lead to was to often 1/3s and 0/4s
4. Hasnt been an issue yet. Maze has been the only card that has been complained about but I also abused the crap put of it all 4 matches soo
5. Aggro of all archtypes doesn't need help. Its really hard to slow down aggro in this format because of its consistency vs controls lack of. Yes if someone is trying 3 color aggro the lands will cause more of an issue but most aggro decks are 2 colors and the fixing isn't as needed in those decks. Lands haven't played to much of a hindrance in my experience as a cube manager.
It was phitt!
Gotta make sure Phitt gets credit for his work on that!
Actually, this is not the first time he's done that to someone asking broad questions like that. He really does take it personally.
//
You can't play havoc demon when you're ahead. I cut it pretty quickly
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
There are no wrong reasons to cube. It's the most fun I've ever had playing Magic.
For peasant, I would suggest a 360 cube. I believe the power level starts to drop off significantly beyond that. I would even recommend dropping the add-on down from 540 to 450. A 540 peasant cube would be half filler, imo.
I prefer providing other colors with answers to problems or overpowered colors/cards in the cube rather than trying to nerf that color or cut that card. I wouldn't go so far as to include specific sideboard cards like Pyroblast or something, though.
When building my peasant cube I didn't actually seek out specific archetypes. I mostly built the cube and let the archetypes happen. Most of my archetypes are generic and not specialized.
I personally feel like power can help to add to a complex and deep draft environment. Players need to understand that these powerful cards exist and draft and play accordingly because of it. I do understand a ban list, though. Even my peasant cube, which includes powerful cards like Warhammer and Scepter, excludes cards like Sol Ring and Mana Drain.
I'd keep the guilds even across all ten. At 360, I'd go with 3 per. I wouldn't include the tri color cards in the initial 360. I'd consider them in the add-on.
I used to run pain lands in my peasant cube and I liked it, but it's a slippery slope. You start adding in the pain lands because they "feel" like they could be printed at uncommon and because you need untapped lands, and it's easy to start justifying adding in more and more rares to start filling holes that unfortunately can exist at the peasant rarity.
In my 360 I'm running the ten gain lands from Khans, the ten tri lands, the five Vivids as well as all the legal five color fixing lands. I haven't noticed that my decks lack for fixing options. If I added another cycle of ten, I'd mix and match Refuges, bounce lands, and other etbt duals.
I think aggro decks would appreciate untapped dual lands, but there are a few untapped five color lands that help those decks. Also peasant is typically very close to a slightly more powerful limited environment, so even running the all basics special can sometimes be ok for aggro decks.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Def. It dies to everything, but forcing your opponent to have the answer is often a good place to be.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I have a cube where every card in it directly supports a theme, be it a counters/proliferate strategy, 5 color, graveyard/discard/cycling, etc. Also, I have cards in multiples (1 2 or 3) in order to somewhat simulate real drafts and to also let people pull together "nuts" drafts (Dude, I got three thrummingbirds and arcbound workers) That one is also peasant.
I have a cube of all bad cards, and cards like fanning the flames are bombs in it. That one has rares, and just the other day I had a giant oyster in play where its two creature types were "oyster" and "giant". It was for legitimate strategic reasons, and only after I did it did I realize how perfect a moment we just created.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Seems overpowered when it doesn't die to me, unless you're getting basted by a flier and they have a spare wall or something
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Renaissance.
The person with more resources may have a random 1/1 they don't need, but the person short on resources is probably happy to take them as meat shields.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
In the games where your playing that card on the defense it's not helping you win the game, it's just buying you time, sometimes that's the only option, but I wouldn't play a card because it buys me a turn or two, it needs to do more. I could see it being strong against aggro, and there would be games where it's the best card in your deck, but on average, I think it would be underwhelming.
Killing the preacher at instant speed gives the creature back though, so perhaps there is some interesting counterplay?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
If my opponent needs to have an answer for my 3 drop before it untaps, then that's probably a good place for the 3 drop to be. I don't really sign on with the slowness aspect considering it costs 3, but you generally want to force your opponents to have answers.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
If you have experience with Old Man of the Sea or in rare cubes Vedalken Shackles, then it plays similarly to those. That is not to say of the same power level--obviously vedalken shackles is better, and Old Man is too--but if you play either of those cards t3 then a lot of decks need answers for them right away or they lose.
Being a 1/1 and 1WW and not having control of the effect undoubtedly makes it worse than those two cards, but it's not too much of a logic leap to see how those cards play out when cast t3 and apply that logic to evaluating Preacher while understanding the real cons but also understanding that a con doesn't mean uncubeable.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic