MTG Salvation

FYI for foilers: the (superior) Cascade version of Garbage Elemental is back in stock at Troll & Toad for 3.99.

Okay I'll move this conversation to the proper place. I just knee jerk posted on the this or that thread.

I don't think that the commander rarities count, especially since we have seen cards from those sets reprinted at rare in other sets. This is because those sets are for multiplayer format and not made for limited.

Which lead to questions about conspiracy cards. I think "will of the council" mechanic is and was not balanced for 1v1. The conspiracy 2 mechanics was better balanced for 1v1 than the first.

Then it moved to cards printed at uncommon in sets not meant for limited... most notably clone and hypnotic specter. I am a modern cube so commander and conspiracy is not in my format.. but these two cards are. To me, with modern card design, they are rares.

Then I just listed a ban list of expensive cards that got rare shifted up in sets after this first printing.
Skullclamp is completely broken, admitted mistake.
Top... so annoyingly slow... although its mostly the price that pushes me away from it.
Aether vial.... not actually good in limited, but if I want consistent rules about rare upshifts I really have to include it here. (I opened a foil one a couple of weeks ago)
How many other rare upshifts are there?

Having gone through this reasoning, I realised need to cut loxodon warhammer. I thought I liked having this random rare in my packs, like in a normal limited format and someone gets luckily with a bomb mythic but no its too annoying. I remember all the times I am running through drafts on cube tutor.. looking through the pack for the card that would synergise with my other picks.. only to realise there was a warhammer so blergh I have to pick it.

Should a peasent cube seek to mimic a limited format, similar to the masters sets? or is pushing in as much power as you can is reasonable?

Play whatever you want

Clone is "rare" in modern sets but it's also clearly a worse card than the likes of Skinrender or Shriekmaw.

Curse of Predation is busted but not because it's a Commander card; nobody complains about Skullwinder with the exact same mana cost.

Keywords like Will of the Council and the Monarch ability were very consciously designed so they DO work in 1v1 -- not the same as in multiplayer, clearly, but still totally functional. I don't really like the role that TNN plays in Legacy (or Cube), but stuff like Coercive Portal and Council's Judgment and Custodi Squire are all really sweet and fun cards.

--

Aven Mindcensor is recently upshifted, but I'd argue that if you have to add that to your banlist due to your methodology then you're probably just better off abandoning a strictly kept list and just treating it card-by-card.

We all find our red lines with those cards. I'll play downshifted Masters cards, but I've no problem not running them if I think they're too good for my tastes or don't fit my idea of fun. Take what you need to make your cube better (for you) and ignore the rest.

Fallen Empires rarities don't count, try and debate me (you can't)

What is acceptable at each rarity keeps shifting. How would you draw the line for what "would never be printed at uncommon anymore"? As an example Control Magic was a rare the last two times it was printed in a draftable set, and most mind control effects seem to be rare lately (Exert Influence, Welcome to the fold, Kefnet's last word, Entrancing Melody, Confiscation Coup.) Who knows where Mind Control "belongs" these days?

If you want to incorporate "modern design", I think if your options are:
-Use a card pool including only standard sets printed since "set X"
-Make "the last seen printing" count. So as an example, with Vintage Masters, Control Magic would have been effectively banned from your pool.
-Do it on a card by card basis.

I only have two rules for peasant inclusion:

1. Has it be printed at common/uncommon at any point in the games history? This counts masters sets, MTGO only sets, and early sets with no clear vision as to what qualified as uncommon.
2. Is it a card I like and think my group will be happy to play? If a card passes step one, it then has to be evaluated based our preferences, the types of decks the cube supports, and the types of decks just enjoy playing.

Other than that, there are no other rules for my peasant cube inclusions.

Quote from JovianHomarid »

What is acceptable at each rarity keeps shifting. How would you draw the line for what "would never be printed at uncommon anymore"? As an example Control Magic was a rare the last two times it was printed in a draftable set, and most mind control effects seem to be rare lately (Exert Influence, Welcome to the fold, Kefnet's last word, Entrancing Melody, Confiscation Coup.) Who knows where Mind Control "belongs" these days?

If you want to incorporate "modern design", I think if your options are:
-Use a card pool including only standard sets printed since "set X"
-Make "the last seen printing" count. So as an example, with Vintage Masters, Control Magic would have been effectively banned from your pool.
-Do it on a card by card basis.

I mean, I think you gave a pretty compelling argument right there that MC would belong at rare today.

The "last seen printing" idea is interesting, I never thought about it that way. Similar but not quite the same, I generally follow the rule of: "was it printed at common or uncommon in a Modern-legal set?" Clone and City of Brass, for instance, were uncommon in older sets but have been rare every time since Modern started, so they count as rare to me.

You always get weird fringe cases though, especially with supplemental products. Fallen Angel was uncommon originally, printed once in Modern sets at rare, printed at rare in some Commander and Duel Deck products, printed at uncommon in another Duel Deck, and then back to rare in the next Commander release. Ultimately I'm the only one policing myself on these rules, but sometimes you just have to make a decision between "it's a silver icon in a Modern frame, we're good to go" and "clearly they had to fudge the rarity for this one special product release, but it would be a rare in a standard set".

I aim to stick to these as my rules for inclusion:
1) Must have been printed at common/uncommon in a standard set from the Modern era (so no Planechase, Commander, Conspiracy, etc.)
2) Must be evailable with a common/uncommon rarity icon in the standard Modern frame (this excludes only a handful of cards that were only printed at C/U in 8th, or as a timeshifted/futureshifted/colorshifted card)

Quote from calibretto »

I only have two rules for peasant inclusion:

1. Has it be printed at common/uncommon at any point in the games history? This counts masters sets, MTGO only sets, and early sets with no clear vision as to what qualified as uncommon.
2. Is it a card I like and think my group will be happy to play? If a card passes step one, it then has to be evaluated based our preferences, the types of decks the cube supports, and the types of decks just enjoy playing.

Other than that, there are no other rules for my peasant cube inclusions.

This is exactly my philosophy as well.

Quote from revengeanceful »

Quote from calibretto »

I only have two rules for peasant inclusion:

1. Has it be printed at common/uncommon at any point in the games history? This counts masters sets, MTGO only sets, and early sets with no clear vision as to what qualified as uncommon.
2. Is it a card I like and think my group will be happy to play? If a card passes step one, it then has to be evaluated based our preferences, the types of decks the cube supports, and the types of decks just enjoy playing.

Other than that, there are no other rules for my peasant cube inclusions.

This is exactly my philosophy as well.

My rules are similar:

1. Must have been printed in paper at common or uncommon at some point of the game
2. I like the card and its functionality in the cube / intended archetype

I join Calibretto and Revengeanceful in their sentiments.

Also, while browsing some cubes, I noticed Mana Tithe and Force Spike in a lot of cubes. Am I missing why these cards are powerful? I mean, in a more high-powered setting I understand, but it seems like it's good on turn 1 and beyond that... idk, can someone enlighten me?

They're good in tempo decks, letting you get ahead, apply pressure, use most of your resources every turn, and (hopefully) counter your opponent's stabilizing play. I find that it's best on turns 4-6, when your opponent is most likely to be tapping out for a value creature or something like that.

Uh

Do people not play four drops on T4 during your drafts?

Quote from TyranidBill »

I join Calibretto and Revengeanceful in their sentiments.

Also, while browsing some cubes, I noticed Mana Tithe and Force Spike in a lot of cubes. Am I missing why these cards are powerful? I mean, in a more high-powered setting I understand, but it seems like it's good on turn 1 and beyond that... idk, can someone enlighten me?

As i0_ said, people tap out on all turns. Yeah they get way worse later into the game, but when a lot of decks want to curve out then the spike-variants are cards that punish tapping out while not demanding all your mana so you can still advance your board/etc.

Also, how often is anyone playing around force spike in W/x where x=/=blue? Mana Tithe is arguably more powerful for that reason, as you really can't afford to play around it in the dark but it's a bit easier to do so against a UW deck since you might already be playing around blue spike variants as-is. Mana Tithe in hand might be less effective when in the last game I played daze, etc. but in orzhov it would take some serious Larry David style stare-downs to figure out what was happening without any other clues.

Also-also, people will not hit their 3rd/4th/etc land. This might lead to them tapping out again and again, or it leads to them slamming down their 4 drop once they finally get their 4th land despite you clearly always keeping U open. Force Spike and Mana Tithe punish in those scenarios, especially when you're still progressing your own plans.

With all that being said, one of the major keys with the spike variants is knowing when to side them out. There have been many times where I figured out I could side the cards out games 2 or 3, whether it was because I knew I was on the draw or that my opponent's deck was suited to play around the cards. The best is when you know you've instilled 'the fear'--that is, when you play Force Spike/Mana Tithe game 1, and then game 2 you leave the appropriate mana open for as long as possible, or if that's not possible/good you leave the appropriate mana open when you have the option too. Meanwhile, its been sitting in your SB in place of something you don't have to react with or a continually-active reactive spell like a removal spell that wasn't good in the dark but better now that you know what you're going against.

There's always the mental aspect of things too where you quickly set up tapping your mana, fake a look at your hand, and then switch the tapped island for a tapped plains. Or you keep an island/plains to the side, almost isolated because you don't want to 'tap it by accident', but the Mana Tithe is still in the deck. The key for this is to be obvious but not so obvious in a way that it seems fake, but when you're playing a game of hidden information knowing how you can bluff is huge. By making pretend you were rushing to make your play and then quickly correcting it, it can be convincing that you're screwing up and almost made a huge gaffe, but then you get a free thorn of amethyst. And then if they call your bluff, you can try to emulate that again later on when you actually have it and try to catch them not taking the threat seriously.

I've also had games where I have a follow up 1 mana play that would leave me tapped out, but don't end up doing it because my opponent sullenly looks at his hand and then my untapped mana and I need the play to occur so it's worth not playing it that turn. Or they continually ask me how much mana I have open. Or they have one card in their hand that never changes and you determine it's not a land and it's not something like invalid removal. You really need to not give away that you are ready to spike, because the whole point is your opponent not taking your one blue mana open thinking that you only have 1 good play that turn.

Question that I was floating around in my head: Would anyone be interested in a "Best of 2017 Peasant Cube" thread? We did the big rankings thread at the end of 2016, so it does not seem necessary to do another one of those, but maybe a smaller thing would be fun.

We got 7 (!) booster releases this year (AEther Revolt, Modern Master 2017, Amonkhet, Hour of Devastation, Ixalan, Iconic Masters, and Unstable) plus a Commander set, so we have a lot to choose from.

My initial thought was a top 3 of each color, plus a top 3 multi-colored and a top 3 colorless, but I also play a larger cube and would totally understand if people would rather a top 2 instead.

Any feedback?

Quote from rancoredmalone »

Question that I was floating around in my head: Would anyone be interested in a "Best of 2017 Peasant Cube" thread? We did the big rankings thread at the end of 2016, so it does not seem necessary to do another one of those, but maybe a smaller thing would be fun.

We got 7 (!) booster releases this year (AEther Revolt, Modern Master 2017, Amonkhet, Hour of Devastation, Ixalan, Iconic Masters, and Unstable) plus a Commander set, so we have a lot to choose from.

My initial thought was a top 3 of each color, plus a top 3 multi-colored and a top 3 colorless, but I also play a larger cube and would totally understand if people would rather a top 2 instead.

Any feedback?

I don't think anyone would be against content that generates discussion, so go for it! And even if something similar had been done, there's no problem with multiple subjective lists.

In terms of what is necessary, we are online discussing cardboard, none of this is necessary

Using last printing is also a little up for debate in some instances. For cards that may have started out at uncommon, then went rare for a couple different printings, then back to uncommon, you really have to look at the reasoning for those upshifted printings. It's very possible that a once uncommon was printed at rare because it's power level may have just been too much to see multiples of it during a draft.

As for Mana Tithe/Force Spike, I believe they are powerful as 'gotcha' counters most of the time, especially Mana Tithe. Most of the time people are trying to curve out and interrupting that with one of these counters is just the greatest feeling. Not only that, but as Salmo said, they'll probably try to play around it in game two as much as they can if they saw it in game one. Mana Tithe is especially one that people just don't respect enough because it's so uncommon for white to just counter a spell out of nowhere. It feels so good to get someone with Mana Tithe. It's one of my favorite things.

A Best Of for 2017 peasant would be a cool idea and I'd be happy to participate in such a discussion/ranking should it be created.

The reason I don't consider the last printing is that those printings are often dictated by the needs of the current set. It doesn't say anything about its suitability for us. See Aven Mindcensor. The only reason that's rare is the set.

The distinction between Uncommon and Rare being used to limit draft effects in core sets makes sense, but the fact that people considered all silver bordered cards fair game was always odd to me. It's very clear that the extra sets like the Commander sets were not intended for a draft environment. If people don't care about that and it makes a better draft environment, I wondered why even bother confining myself to something as arbitrary as the color of the set symbol? Just play the cards you like.

The problem with that stance is that cards with gold symbols are definitely not uncommon.

With any uncommon that's not from a normal set I simply ask myself "does this card make my cube more fun?"

Why not play with rares.

There's a ton of bulk rares which would be good but fair in a peasant power-level environment. Many of them would be cheaper than a lot of our staples (anybody checked the price on their Demonic Tutors lately?) so using "budget" as a justification to stay Peasant doesn't make sense for a lot of our cubes.

Peasant is just a simple way to distinguish what cards are of a similar power level. It's got a well explored meta on these forums so building your cube and discussing the format with strangers is pretty straight forward. It also puts a reasonable upper limit on how powerful your "low power" cube can get.

There's certainly benefits to breaking peasant (while aiming to maintain the power level), but you'll lose out on the ability to discuss it with other people who are familiar with the topic, and power creep will become much harder to avoid.

I'm starting to build my own cube, and am starting with the Average Cube as a few people suggested.

However, it seems the colors are imbalanced, and red is just missing cards, is there a reason for this?

A card has to be in x cubes to make the "average cube" list, so it's probably just that there's slightly more variety in the red cards that are being played, so fewer make it onto the average list.

Quote from guitarspider »

A card has to be in x cubes to make the "average cube" list, so it's probably just that there's slightly more variety in the red cards that are being played, so fewer make it onto the average list.

Ah okay. If I use the average cube as a starting point for my cube, will the imbalance in color hurt gameplay with the cube?

Uh I mean it's still going to function as-is, but if you're starting from scratch just make it even. Choose whatever five red cards you most want to add, and there you go.