I am totally fine with uneven number of cards in ally/enemy pairs, but I personall don't do it because to me, it doesn't look aesthetically nice, and I'm fine with 3 of each anyway.
I don't like uneven numbers of multicolored cards if I can avoid it, but I recognize that sometimes it's just the right call. There are a number of good reasons to mess with color distribution, and I think it's largely a matter of personal preference. I know I've considered skimping out on weaker color pairs in the past, and I definitely count hybrid cards in a way that diminishes the number of cards that are "really" in certain color pairs.
I draft them all the time. colorless removal is a beautiful thing when you're in something like blue/green. When you want to pump out the threats, counter others, but still kill things in the way or get some reach.
I love them to death, and think they're some of the safest slots in the Cube. They're obviously best in Green and Blue, but I almost always play them in my Black decks as well. They look bad, but removal is removal, and early flexibility on colors in the draft and mana requirements in the deck is a pretty big deal.
In most cubes, these cards make weenies (the majority of common cube creatures) cry. Also, there isn't very much playable artifact protection at Common - well, at any rarity, IMO - so you can kill 60%-75% of what'll hit the table.
Tactically, having them in play gives your opponent something else to think about and the more they have to think about, the worse it is for them. They make Green think twice about pumping a little dude, and anyone equipping or enchanting a little creature will have to think about the fact that you can burn their guy in response. Heck, even holding these them back to catch someone off guard and shorten the game's clock can be good.
How high you value them depends what you're playing. Some colors don't need the extra removal (Red) and some don't intent to be in the game long enough for it to matter (Black, White). I think Ratman! and killem2 are correct in their assessments that Green and/or Blue get a lot of mileage out of these kinds of cards.
I think that Moonglove Extract is a terrible card in cube. 'Pile's marginally better and Blazing Torch is obviously slightly better than that, but they're pretty similar in power level.
Of course, being colourless is a pretty big plus on a removal spell - that's the reason that I think of Serrated Arrows as one of the best, if not the best, removal spell in cube (I'll sometimes pick it over Faith's Fetters and vice versa). Of course, as a coloured enchantment (or artifact, nowadays), Serrated Arrows would be absolutely fine, but being non-committal, infinitely splashable and resistant to screw puts it over the top.
However, there really is a minimum power level of card that's needed for its inclusion in cube. If there's no possible card that fills a certain role properly, then it really needs just to be excluded - using mediocre cards in one place in place of good cards in another place is rarely worth it. Examples are finisher slots in most colours (Flameborn Viron is not nearly as useful as Lash Out in almost all decks, even those lacking in high end creatures). For example, I'm not even running a second BG card - if I were to run one it would have to be better than mono-coloured cards that I'm not including (Rend Flesh > Shambling Shell, or any non-leech BG card), because otherwise the structure of the cube is ruining its power for absolutely no reason.
Now, colourless removal apart from Serrated Arrows, Leonin Bola, Viridian Longbow and possibly Blazing Torch (probably not, but I'm going to give it a test and 1 + 1 is much less than 3) is one of these slots. Sure, there are cards that fill it that that aren't absolutely terrible (Moonglove Extract), but the power of these cards is so low that running them over borderline cards in the artifact section like Kitesail or Whispersilk Cloak is never worth it. They are just so bad removal spells that almost no deck wants them, especially over the other options.
The high availability of removal spells in W, B and R means that you can always get to the point that a real threat is better than Extract (even if you are a bit low on removal, you still won't want extract. If you have absolutely none, sure, you might want the Extract, but that's hardly realistic). U and G are the colours for which Extract and 'Pile are run, of course. However, it's terrible if you're U or G paired with any removal colour - so the colour combinations concerned are mono U, UG and mono G.
And in my experience, none of these combinations really want Extract, apart from maybe mono green which is always terrible anyway and does not deserve support. I can elaborate if people want.
I understand where you're coming from, Ruin8or, but just can't quite get on the same page. I agree that cards like Extract are pretty weak compared to almost any other option. But do you really think there's no room for role-players in the Cube? Yeah, if I was making a list of most powerful 450 commons, none of the colorless removal would be anywhere near the top. They just help with how the Cube plays so much on my end, though. I've also played them a lot in decks with good removal colors that I can't really accept they're quite as weak as you say. Maybe it's a difference in Cube design (I know I've been actively lowering the removal count in my Cube for the health of the limited environment). Maybe it's the fact that I have a hard time getting anyone in my playgroup to draft Green ever without cards like Extract around. Maybe it's the higher-than-average pinger saturation that makes Extract and the like far more reasonable in colors like White, which is very susceptible to them and has maybe five valid answers (Arrest, Oblivion Ring, Journey to Nowhere, Sunlance, and Faith's Fetters). More importantly, when cards like Cloak made stints in the Cube, nobody ran them. People cut Moonglove sometimes, but they still maindeck the card pretty often. Even when they don't, it's a pretty sweet sideboard option. I don't know, I guess I just feel like they're the ultimate role-players. And role-players that wouldn't make the cut but for specifics of the Cube are quickly becoming my favorite cards.
EDIT: Glad nobody called me on forgetting O-Ring and Journey before I got back. I was kind of embarrassed about that for the past five hours.
While Moonglove Extract has seen some play over on our side, I agree that it's one of my additions, and will surely get cut for the next good artifact (I may even bring in Cloak back, but I really, really do not like the Cloak). Although the strength of colorless removal probably changes slightly with each cube (GU is popular over here, for instance, and it loves Extract, however expensive).
I don't see how people can't be getting results with these cards. They are mean bastards in decks that don't get the advantage of straight damage like that.
Just one addition: Blazing Torch doesn't only cost 1+1. It costs 1 plus 1+tap an untapped, non-summoning-sick creature you control. That can be a huge deal. The pro Vampires+Zombies doesn't make up for anything.
Sure, that's a cost. A small cost normally, the decks that even vaguely want those kind of cards normally have more than enough small creatures that it isn't too bad.
The evasion isn't much (less than the tap cost, for sure), but it is something.
I understand where you're coming from, Ruin8or, but just can't quite get on the same page. I agree that cards like Extract are pretty weak compared to almost any other option. But do you really think there's no room for role-players in the Cube? Yeah, if I was making a list of most powerful 450 commons, none of the colorless removal would be anywhere near the top. They just help with how the Cube plays so much on my end, though. I've also played them a lot in decks with good removal colors that I can't really accept they're quite as weak as you say. Maybe it's a difference in Cube design (I know I've been actively lowering the removal count in my Cube for the health of the limited environment). Maybe it's the fact that I have a hard time getting anyone in my playgroup to draft Green ever without cards like Extract around. Maybe it's the higher-than-average pinger saturation that makes Extract and the like far more reasonable in colors like White, which is very susceptible to them and has maybe five valid answers (Arrest, Oblivion Ring, Journey to Nowhere, Sunlance, and Faith's Fetters). More importantly, when cards like Cloak made stints in the Cube, nobody ran them. People cut Moonglove sometimes, but they still maindeck the card pretty often. Even when they don't, it's a pretty sweet sideboard option. I don't know, I guess I just feel like they're the ultimate role-players. And role-players that wouldn't make the cut but for specifics of the Cube are quickly becoming my favorite cards.
EDIT: Glad nobody called me on forgetting O-Ring and Journey before I got back. I was kind of embarrassed about that for the past five hours.
I actually agree about Cloak (I used it as an example cause it was what I thought of off the top of my head, it's pretty popular around here), but there are other, better options like Vulshok Gauntlets.
Leave them in if you like them and people play them. Here, they were decent sideboard cards at best, is all.
Fair enough on Chant, Javelineers, and Driller, although Troubled Healer is a very poor pinger answer, in my experience. A small point, but one I'll stand by. And hey, at least I don't feel bad about forgetting those ones.
I actually agree about Cloak (I used it as an example cause it was what I thought of off the top of my head, it's pretty popular around here), but there are other, better options like Vulshok Gauntlets.
That one excites me more, and is something I was actually curious about. I'm already worried that I have a few more equipment in the Cube than I really want. About how many power-boosting equipment do you think can go in before they start to get excessive? I guess the initial idea was I'd rather have subpar removal for every color instead of subpar creature pump for every color for play reasons. If that's a switch you've made, how has going heavier on the equipment gone for you?
Fair enough on Chant, Javelineers, and Driller, although Troubled Healer is a very poor pinger answer, in my experience. A small point, but one I'll stand by. And hey, at least I don't feel bad about forgetting those ones.
I've never actually played Troubled Healer, so I can believe you there. It does seem like it's a very poor answer to anything, from a first glance.
I do agree that that could well be a largish problem in your cube, but think it would be better to add okay answers in white than to add bad multicoloured answers, if that's possible.
That one excites me more, and is something I was actually curious about. I'm already worried that I have a few more equipment in the Cube than I really want. About how many power-boosting equipment do you think can go in before they start to get excessive? I guess the initial idea was I'd rather have subpar removal for every color instead of subpar creature pump for every color for play reasons. If that's a switch you've made, how has going heavier on the equipment gone for you?
Yeah, the difference between here and real limited is that almost all of the pump spells and auras are moved to artifact slots in the form of equipment, and better coloured spells can be added. I've never personally reached a limit of the number of equipment run that changes the play of the cube for the worse - the reason I don't run more is because there aren't enough good equipment. I say go for it, go overboard on it and if it is too much, just cut some.
Or you could cut some bad pump spells from coloured sections to run superior equipment, eg Elvish Fury, Giant Growth.
I've never actually played Troubled Healer, so I can believe you there. It does seem like it's a very poor answer to anything, from a first glance.
Troubled Healer has my vote for most underrated Common Cube common ever, in my opinion. It doesn't look like much, but it actually just dominates most games where it shows up (especially since the average CMC is so low). Pingers are actually one of its only real weaknesses.
I do agree that that could well be a largish problem in your cube, but think it would be better to add okay answers in white than to add bad multicoloured answers, if that's possible.
But is it possible, really? Carom was in here for a while, but got cut for being too narrow. And yeah, the main problem with pingers is that the two people who play with the Cube the most (me and my friend Rowan) really like them, so we kind of put more in than belong. I'm still embarrassed by how long Stinging Barrier was in there as an answer to other pingers.
Yeah, the difference between here and real limited is that almost all of the pump spells and auras are moved to artifact slots in the form of equipment, and better coloured spells can be added. I've never personally reached a limit of the number of equipment run that changes the play of the cube for the worse - the reason I don't run more is because there aren't enough good equipment. I say go for it, go overboard on it and if it is too much, just cut some.
A fair point. I'll definitely consider it, and I do have very fond memories of people underdrafting Vulshok Gauntlets in MD5 limited.
Or you could cut some bad pump spells from coloured sections to run superior equipment, eg Elvish Fury, Giant Growth.
But then I have to cut cards from colors that I actually like! Although I agree, Elvish Fury has just been an underperformer for too long. I've been pleasantly surprised by Giant Growth, but it really does kind of require a double-take when I see it, which is not what I want a card to do (unless it's secretly awesome, like Troubled Healer).
While updating my cube with Innistrad cards, I came to look through the whole cube again. When I looked through my blue section I noticed that the creatures and spells I play (which are pretty much the same most people seem to play) actually go into pretty different directions. While I geared my creature base towards Control, eschewing cards like Welkin Tern, Windrider Eel and Cloud Spirit, my spells section contains a whole lot of pure tempo cards that are not exactly what hard control decks want (Daze, Force Spike, Arcane Denial, Memory Lapse, Undo and so on). While I've never had trouble building control decks I'm now thinking about whether or not I should change something about that discrepancy. Less bounce and tempo counters in the spells section or more aggressive creatures in the creatures section... What do you think? Or would you not do anything about it?
I'd do something about it, but I'm not sure it's as much of a problem as you think it is. Memory Lapse is actually just awesome even in straight-up control, in my opinion. Same with Arcane Denial, although to a lesser extent. I don't like them as much, but Daze and Force Spike are pretty popular in control decks as well as aggro decks (I remember Spike was good in Psychatog back in the day, which was definitely a control deck!). I recently cut Undo from my Cube for exactly the reason you describe, though. I'd drop that one. What would you want to replace those cards with? I'd make sure I have replacements in mind before I made cuts to good cards, especially if this isn't a problem you ever notice while playing with the Cube.
I would cut Trinket Mage before I cut Divination. You have 10 targets for it in the cube, which is 2.5%. I don't think that's enough to warrant the inclusion of a Grey Ogre.
I don't know, I'm really hestiant to cut such awesome cards like Undo.
I feel you, but I think it's the right call. Obviously different strokes for different folks (and I know other members of my playgroup weren't thrilled when I cut Undo). Cards are only as good as the format they're in, and Undo just always seemed cooler than it actually was (even if it would be an indisputable blowout in limited these days).
What I'm thinking about is adding some conditional hard counters over the pure tempo/soft counters. Things like the Remove Soul reprints could be fine and I'm seriously considering cutting Daze from my cube. While it's probably the best common in constructed I feel it just doesn't live up to anything in Pauper limited. You never want to pay mana for it and the alternate cost sets you back a lot early in the game, while it's a dead card in the late game. Constructed decks with Wasteland Stifle, that don't need more than 4 mana in play can afford Daze. I think most decks in my cube can't.
Oh, yeah, that seems fine. How many Remove Soul variants are you running? You don't want to overdo it, but I think there are four functionally identical versions of that card for you to choose from. Two seems like a good number to me, but you have options. That seems like a great thing to try out, actually, and I'm with you on Daze's comparative weakness.
I'm also thinking about cutting Frantic Search. Also a staple in limited, it's only marginally (and in many cases not at all) better than Careful Study, if you think about it. The only reason why it saw constructed play were High Tide decks. In cube I'd rather have Oona's Grace, Compulsive Research and honestly speaking even Divination in many cases.
OK, if these are the changes you're thinking of, I can definitely support them. I know lots of Cubers like Research, but I cut it a long time ago and never looked back. I might talk to proponents before doing anything too drastic, but I really hated that card and am glad it's gone.
I know this may sound strange for most of you, but I've thought about that for a long time. I think it might be time to reevaluate the constructed staples and find out whether they are really as good in Pauper limited. For a similar Reason I've already cut Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual and Innocent Blood some time ago. And I've never looked back.
This is usually right. Dark Ritual is the only one of those I still run, and everyone recognizes that it's just awful in the Cube. It's mostly just in because it would feel weird not to have it in. I'm pretty sure nobody has ever played the card in a deck, though, and it is one I constantly consider cutting for the sake of a more relevant card.
Quote from crma878787 »
Well I for myself like the idea of blue based aggro. Cards like Phantasmal Bear or Welking Tern are really strong and u can combine them with Bounce/Counter/Draw etc.
I actually like Blue aggro as a thing, especially in "normal" cubes where Blue control needs some card dilution to be balanced. I think there are plenty of valid reasons to enable the deck. But I want an honest-to-goodness control deck more, and Blue control isn't anywhere near the powerhouse in Common Cubes that it is in every other cube format ever.
+ Lost in the Mist
I don't like this card very much. It's just too slow, and the value feels pretty marginal. I wouldn't run this one.
Possible Cuts are: Oonas Grace, Divination, Quicksilver Geyser, Cloud Elemental, Aven Fleetwing and of course more of my list I dont get.
I think any of these would be fine cuts aside from Fleetwing. They're all fine cards, but none exactly excite me past the bird. Personally, I love that card, and don't think it should ever leave, even for Innistrad goodies.
+ Voiceless Spirit
I actually don't think Voiceless Spirit is very good. Nobody runs Pegasus Charger, and the Spirit creature type isn't really enough of a boost in most cubes to make Spirit better. Chapel Geist is kind of the nuts, though (I was shocked to figure that out, but it answers so many of White's problems it's not even funny).
Green:
+ Ambush Viper
+ Darkthicket Wolf
+ Festerhide Boar
+ Villagers of Estwald
I don't like Villagers of Estwald very much. The rest are sweet, though (I actually like the Wolf quite a bit, although it's also a card tailor-made for my sensibilities).
Cuts: Sacred Wolf, Silhana Ledgewalker, Stampeding Rhino, Tangle Hulk, more that u can say to me
Depending on equipment ratios, Silhana Ledgewalker can be pretty sweet. Of the cards you're thinking of cutting, I'd probably hold on to either Ledgewalker (if you have a lot of equipment/auras) or Hulk and not cut Villagers.
Black:
+ Dead Weight
+ Vampire Interlooper
+ Victim of Night
+ Altars Reap ??
I've been pleasantly surprised by Altar's Reap in INN limited, but I still think it's a ways away from good enough here. The rest are awesome cards, though.
Cuts: Tormented Soul, Mortis Dogs, Heartstabber Mosquito?
I actually like all of these cuts. Seems good to me.
Cut: Vulshok Berserker?
I don't like cutting creatures for removal if I can avoid it, but I really don't like Berserker, so maybe it's OK just this once.
What u think about Forbidden Alchemy?
I'm thinking of cutting something like Mystical Teachings for it yet, but I'm just going to talk it out with my playgroup next time we draft together.
My experience with pauper cube is limited for now, so some adds and cuts may not make sense. I need ur help to make this update work.
Seems like you're off to a decent start! I'll definitely check out your list in the near future, though, and see if I can help.
Quote from Lanxal »
I would cut Trinket Mage before I cut Divination. You have 10 targets for it in the cube, which is 2.5%. I don't think that's enough to warrant the inclusion of a Grey Ogre.
I wouldn't add Voiceless Spirit but would add Chapel Geist, in place of Kemba's Skyguard.
Darkthicket Wolf isn't worth it. Your cuts seem reasonable.
That red swap seems very good. I would also try to find room for Bloodcrazed Neonate and Ashmouth Hound.
I second all of these past Darkthicket Wolf. Even then, that's probably because of my deep irrational love of Bears with random value attached.
It's a pretty simple choice for most common cubers - by preference and not entirely by power. There are some of the most powerful cards in the cube in the pack - Fetters, Pyrotechnics, Lightning Bolt. Mana Leak is pretty close, too. So the pick will almost definitely be the one of those which whoever thinks is the most powerful. My pick is Fetters, but I'll go through every justifyable pick and say why or why not.
Pyrotechnics - The "best red card" according to some, definitely a fine choice. I don't think its raw power is as high as Fetters, but some people do. I would still go with Fetters even if I like Pyro a bit more, because taking fetters is a really good signal, taking pyro is not a very good one.
Lightning Bolt - I think that sometimes this is a better pick than pyro, but not here - you're likely to be able to get a control card on the wheel, but not an aggro card.
Leak - Sure, but its raw power is much less than the above cards. If you like drafting blue this much, you can't be helped.
I'm definitely caught between Pyrotechnics and Faith's Fetters. I'd probably take the Pyrotechnics, since it's splashable (although so is Fetters) and I think it's better in terms of raw power and flexibility. Again, like Rubin says, you can disagree with me or not, but I definitely think it's a fine pick. Then I would assume the people down the stream to be white and then red, and that'd make picking easier.
Fetters for me, although maybe not for the best reasons. Generally, I agree with Ruin8or. I love the signal it sends, and more importantly, there's a very good chance Totem-Guide Hartebeest wheels. Now, for the not-so-good reason- the Beest is a new addition to my Cube that I'm super excited to play with, so I'm slightly prone to take the aura-deck path if an even remotely acceptable reason for doing it presents itself.
Also, I would love to do a forum draft. That sounds fun!
Safehold Elite - not that good of a card, but it's all we have. Some decks just want a bear, so I do play this pretty often. Minister of Impediments - free trapper is pretty nice. Plus, blue doesn't get much of this, and really likes it. Scarscale Ritual - This card is alright. There's not much else to choose from. I do wish there was a better option. I used to run Lurking Informant, but it's just too slow. Cultbrand Cinder - this card is WAY better than you'd think. I run it in just about any black or red deck. I would run it even if I didn't have a dedicated hybrid section. Giantbaiting - This card is mediocre, but it has a place in super aggressive decks. Not much to choose from here, but this is good in aggressive decks that have a good curve. Snakeform - favorite card ever. This thing is sweet. Noggle Bandit - this guy is decent. 2 power evasion for 3 is par in blue, but it's great in red. Fire at Will - This is actually usable in decks that aren't R/W. It has a ton of upside, and almost always kills something. This card is pretty good. Unmake - pretty much on par with fire at will. More consistent and good vs green, but can't 2-for-1. Desecrator Hag - Green loves this card, and black is always willing to run card advantage. Good stuff.
Cultbrand Cinder is definitely a card I would not have considered running before that I think might be worth it now. In particular, the power of Pith Driller has demonstrated that there's a place for this ability. I don't think Cinder's anywhere near Driller's power level, but it's still a comparison that doubles as a recommendation. I'll probably try it out.
I really do not like any of the UB options. Scarscale is probably the best of the bunch (I don't like Informant at all, and I'd much rather have Oona's Gatewarden), but the power of Pith Driller and Cinder kind of demonstrates the main problem of the card. A -1/-1 counter is a pretty huge deal in this format, to the point where I think the card begins to resemble the far-from-cubable Altar's Reap.
Safehold Elite is unexciting, but I agree- sometimes you just need a Bear with value. This guy usually makes the cut in my Green or White decks pretty comfortably, which I just don't think is true with any other option.
RW is kind of a problem. I might run Fire at Will from time to time, but it's so rough on the mana and you have better removal options in either of the colors it forces you to play tons of. Assailant is a bad Mogg Fanatic variant, but that's actually something I think the average White or Red deck would still play with. I think he's my choice.
BW is just loose. Unmake is probably more recognizably "strong," but exiling a creature isn't that big of a deal in this format and the mana on that card is just the worst. It's going to be a tough-to-cast Dark Banishing even in recursion-heavy cubes like mine. Gwyllion looks terrible, but is actually probably something Black or Black/White decks want in their cards (White decks seem like they might actually want Unmake from time to time). I don't want to run either of them, but by a similar token I can't fault you for choosing either one if you want a dedicated Hybrid section.
You both like Desecrator Hag, which I get but find interesting. Personally, I've been very impressed with Rendclaw Trow as a BG Hybrid. More independent value, compares favorably to most similar-cost creatures in either of its colors, and more reliable. Maybe I should start testing with Hag, though- I think Black uses Trow better than Green does, and given comparative color power it's probably better for the Cube if the hybrid is better in Green instead.
Minister of Impediments is OK, but I'd rather have Curse of Chains, I think. Narcolepsy is exactly the kind of card I want more of in the Cube, while I'm already running a little long on tapper dudes. Minister seems so Blue-centric that he should almost take a Blue slot if you want to run him. I just can't imagine ever playing that guy in a White deck and feeling good about it.
I think Scuzzback Marauders is better than Giantbaiting in general, so if you want universal applicability, it's your man. There are definitely archetypes that prefer the Baiting, though (I seem to remember it being the basis of a pretty good deck in SSS and SSE limited) and if you want an archetype card, a hybrid slot seems like a great place to put it.
There's a reason Blinding Mage is picked over Pacifism in limited. Minister of Impediments is better, as long as you aren't one of those people who puts 15 pingers in your cube.
There is a reason people pick Blinding Mage over Pacifism, but it's kind of format dependent. Even if you don't run too many pingers (which I'm fully aware I do), removal's just more prevalent in Common Cubes. That means having your removal depend on a creature staying in play is a much bigger problem than it might be elsewhere. I don't run any of the three functional Blinding Mages anymore, and I haven't really looked back. And I still feel like I have more tappers than I really need with Goldmeadow Harrier, Gideon's Lawkeeper, Blinding Souleater (the extra point of toughness and relaxed mana requirements make this guy much, much better than Mage variants and Minister in White), Silkbind Faerie (Can't believe I forgot this guy-I'd run it before I ran Minister, and possibly before I ran Curse), and Squall Drifter. Minister is fine, but you have better options in the same Hybrid slot and elsewhere. That, and tappers just aren't as good in this format.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
My Trading Post! Bunches of valuable EDH/Modern/Legacy stuff, looking for foil commons!
Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
My Trading Post! Bunches of valuable EDH/Modern/Legacy stuff, looking for foil commons!
Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
Tactically, having them in play gives your opponent something else to think about and the more they have to think about, the worse it is for them. They make Green think twice about pumping a little dude, and anyone equipping or enchanting a little creature will have to think about the fact that you can burn their guy in response. Heck, even holding these them back to catch someone off guard and shorten the game's clock can be good.
How high you value them depends what you're playing. Some colors don't need the extra removal (Red) and some don't intent to be in the game long enough for it to matter (Black, White). I think Ratman! and killem2 are correct in their assessments that Green and/or Blue get a lot of mileage out of these kinds of cards.
Of course, being colourless is a pretty big plus on a removal spell - that's the reason that I think of Serrated Arrows as one of the best, if not the best, removal spell in cube (I'll sometimes pick it over Faith's Fetters and vice versa). Of course, as a coloured enchantment (or artifact, nowadays), Serrated Arrows would be absolutely fine, but being non-committal, infinitely splashable and resistant to screw puts it over the top.
However, there really is a minimum power level of card that's needed for its inclusion in cube. If there's no possible card that fills a certain role properly, then it really needs just to be excluded - using mediocre cards in one place in place of good cards in another place is rarely worth it. Examples are finisher slots in most colours (Flameborn Viron is not nearly as useful as Lash Out in almost all decks, even those lacking in high end creatures). For example, I'm not even running a second BG card - if I were to run one it would have to be better than mono-coloured cards that I'm not including (Rend Flesh > Shambling Shell, or any non-leech BG card), because otherwise the structure of the cube is ruining its power for absolutely no reason.
Now, colourless removal apart from Serrated Arrows, Leonin Bola, Viridian Longbow and possibly Blazing Torch (probably not, but I'm going to give it a test and 1 + 1 is much less than 3) is one of these slots. Sure, there are cards that fill it that that aren't absolutely terrible (Moonglove Extract), but the power of these cards is so low that running them over borderline cards in the artifact section like Kitesail or Whispersilk Cloak is never worth it. They are just so bad removal spells that almost no deck wants them, especially over the other options.
The high availability of removal spells in W, B and R means that you can always get to the point that a real threat is better than Extract (even if you are a bit low on removal, you still won't want extract. If you have absolutely none, sure, you might want the Extract, but that's hardly realistic). U and G are the colours for which Extract and 'Pile are run, of course. However, it's terrible if you're U or G paired with any removal colour - so the colour combinations concerned are mono U, UG and mono G.
And in my experience, none of these combinations really want Extract, apart from maybe mono green which is always terrible anyway and does not deserve support. I can elaborate if people want.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
EDIT: Glad nobody called me on forgetting O-Ring and Journey before I got back. I was kind of embarrassed about that for the past five hours.
My Trading Post! Bunches of valuable EDH/Modern/Legacy stuff, looking for foil commons!
Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Sure, that's a cost. A small cost normally, the decks that even vaguely want those kind of cards normally have more than enough small creatures that it isn't too bad.
The evasion isn't much (less than the tap cost, for sure), but it is something.
You also forgot Icatian Javelineers, Troubled Healer, Kor Chant (almost all of the time), plus there are colourless answers (including Pith Driller) and lots and lots of temporary answers.
I actually agree about Cloak (I used it as an example cause it was what I thought of off the top of my head, it's pretty popular around here), but there are other, better options like Vulshok Gauntlets.
Leave them in if you like them and people play them. Here, they were decent sideboard cards at best, is all.
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Fair enough on Chant, Javelineers, and Driller, although Troubled Healer is a very poor pinger answer, in my experience. A small point, but one I'll stand by. And hey, at least I don't feel bad about forgetting those ones.
That one excites me more, and is something I was actually curious about. I'm already worried that I have a few more equipment in the Cube than I really want. About how many power-boosting equipment do you think can go in before they start to get excessive? I guess the initial idea was I'd rather have subpar removal for every color instead of subpar creature pump for every color for play reasons. If that's a switch you've made, how has going heavier on the equipment gone for you?
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I've never actually played Troubled Healer, so I can believe you there. It does seem like it's a very poor answer to anything, from a first glance.
I do agree that that could well be a largish problem in your cube, but think it would be better to add okay answers in white than to add bad multicoloured answers, if that's possible.
Yeah, the difference between here and real limited is that almost all of the pump spells and auras are moved to artifact slots in the form of equipment, and better coloured spells can be added. I've never personally reached a limit of the number of equipment run that changes the play of the cube for the worse - the reason I don't run more is because there aren't enough good equipment. I say go for it, go overboard on it and if it is too much, just cut some.
Or you could cut some bad pump spells from coloured sections to run superior equipment, eg Elvish Fury, Giant Growth.
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Troubled Healer has my vote for most underrated Common Cube common ever, in my opinion. It doesn't look like much, but it actually just dominates most games where it shows up (especially since the average CMC is so low). Pingers are actually one of its only real weaknesses.
But is it possible, really? Carom was in here for a while, but got cut for being too narrow. And yeah, the main problem with pingers is that the two people who play with the Cube the most (me and my friend Rowan) really like them, so we kind of put more in than belong. I'm still embarrassed by how long Stinging Barrier was in there as an answer to other pingers.
A fair point. I'll definitely consider it, and I do have very fond memories of people underdrafting Vulshok Gauntlets in MD5 limited.
But then I have to cut cards from colors that I actually like! Although I agree, Elvish Fury has just been an underperformer for too long. I've been pleasantly surprised by Giant Growth, but it really does kind of require a double-take when I see it, which is not what I want a card to do (unless it's secretly awesome, like Troubled Healer).
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I'd do something about it, but I'm not sure it's as much of a problem as you think it is. Memory Lapse is actually just awesome even in straight-up control, in my opinion. Same with Arcane Denial, although to a lesser extent. I don't like them as much, but Daze and Force Spike are pretty popular in control decks as well as aggro decks (I remember Spike was good in Psychatog back in the day, which was definitely a control deck!). I recently cut Undo from my Cube for exactly the reason you describe, though. I'd drop that one. What would you want to replace those cards with? I'd make sure I have replacements in mind before I made cuts to good cards, especially if this isn't a problem you ever notice while playing with the Cube.
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Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
I wouldn't add Voiceless Spirit but would add Chapel Geist, in place of Kemba's Skyguard.
Darkthicket Wolf isn't worth it. Your cuts seem reasonable.
That red swap seems very good. I would also try to find room for Bloodcrazed Neonate and Ashmouth Hound.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I feel you, but I think it's the right call. Obviously different strokes for different folks (and I know other members of my playgroup weren't thrilled when I cut Undo). Cards are only as good as the format they're in, and Undo just always seemed cooler than it actually was (even if it would be an indisputable blowout in limited these days).
Oh, yeah, that seems fine. How many Remove Soul variants are you running? You don't want to overdo it, but I think there are four functionally identical versions of that card for you to choose from. Two seems like a good number to me, but you have options. That seems like a great thing to try out, actually, and I'm with you on Daze's comparative weakness.
OK, if these are the changes you're thinking of, I can definitely support them. I know lots of Cubers like Research, but I cut it a long time ago and never looked back. I might talk to proponents before doing anything too drastic, but I really hated that card and am glad it's gone.
This is usually right. Dark Ritual is the only one of those I still run, and everyone recognizes that it's just awful in the Cube. It's mostly just in because it would feel weird not to have it in. I'm pretty sure nobody has ever played the card in a deck, though, and it is one I constantly consider cutting for the sake of a more relevant card.
I actually like Blue aggro as a thing, especially in "normal" cubes where Blue control needs some card dilution to be balanced. I think there are plenty of valid reasons to enable the deck. But I want an honest-to-goodness control deck more, and Blue control isn't anywhere near the powerhouse in Common Cubes that it is in every other cube format ever.
I don't like this card very much. It's just too slow, and the value feels pretty marginal. I wouldn't run this one.
I think any of these would be fine cuts aside from Fleetwing. They're all fine cards, but none exactly excite me past the bird. Personally, I love that card, and don't think it should ever leave, even for Innistrad goodies.
I actually don't think Voiceless Spirit is very good. Nobody runs Pegasus Charger, and the Spirit creature type isn't really enough of a boost in most cubes to make Spirit better. Chapel Geist is kind of the nuts, though (I was shocked to figure that out, but it answers so many of White's problems it's not even funny).
I don't like Villagers of Estwald very much. The rest are sweet, though (I actually like the Wolf quite a bit, although it's also a card tailor-made for my sensibilities).
Depending on equipment ratios, Silhana Ledgewalker can be pretty sweet. Of the cards you're thinking of cutting, I'd probably hold on to either Ledgewalker (if you have a lot of equipment/auras) or Hulk and not cut Villagers.
I've been pleasantly surprised by Altar's Reap in INN limited, but I still think it's a ways away from good enough here. The rest are awesome cards, though.
I actually like all of these cuts. Seems good to me.
I don't like cutting creatures for removal if I can avoid it, but I really don't like Berserker, so maybe it's OK just this once.
I'm thinking of cutting something like Mystical Teachings for it yet, but I'm just going to talk it out with my playgroup next time we draft together.
Seems like you're off to a decent start! I'll definitely check out your list in the near future, though, and see if I can help.
I second all of these past Darkthicket Wolf. Even then, that's probably because of my deep irrational love of Bears with random value attached.
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Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
Pyrotechnics - The "best red card" according to some, definitely a fine choice. I don't think its raw power is as high as Fetters, but some people do. I would still go with Fetters even if I like Pyro a bit more, because taking fetters is a really good signal, taking pyro is not a very good one.
Lightning Bolt - I think that sometimes this is a better pick than pyro, but not here - you're likely to be able to get a control card on the wheel, but not an aggro card.
Leak - Sure, but its raw power is much less than the above cards. If you like drafting blue this much, you can't be helped.
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My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Meant to be Orzhov Basilica, for all the difference that makes. I do think it's the highest pick if you had to grab a fixing card, but you don't.
I could start a forum draft in the next few days, if people would want to participate in that?
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Also, I would love to do a forum draft. That sounds fun!
My Trading Post! Bunches of valuable EDH/Modern/Legacy stuff, looking for foil commons!
Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
What type of forum draft? Rotisserie? If so, I'm all for it.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Safehold Elite - not that good of a card, but it's all we have. Some decks just want a bear, so I do play this pretty often.
Minister of Impediments - free trapper is pretty nice. Plus, blue doesn't get much of this, and really likes it.
Scarscale Ritual - This card is alright. There's not much else to choose from. I do wish there was a better option. I used to run Lurking Informant, but it's just too slow.
Cultbrand Cinder - this card is WAY better than you'd think. I run it in just about any black or red deck. I would run it even if I didn't have a dedicated hybrid section.
Giantbaiting - This card is mediocre, but it has a place in super aggressive decks. Not much to choose from here, but this is good in aggressive decks that have a good curve.
Snakeform - favorite card ever. This thing is sweet.
Noggle Bandit - this guy is decent. 2 power evasion for 3 is par in blue, but it's great in red.
Fire at Will - This is actually usable in decks that aren't R/W. It has a ton of upside, and almost always kills something. This card is pretty good.
Unmake - pretty much on par with fire at will. More consistent and good vs green, but can't 2-for-1.
Desecrator Hag - Green loves this card, and black is always willing to run card advantage. Good stuff.
I really do not like any of the UB options. Scarscale is probably the best of the bunch (I don't like Informant at all, and I'd much rather have Oona's Gatewarden), but the power of Pith Driller and Cinder kind of demonstrates the main problem of the card. A -1/-1 counter is a pretty huge deal in this format, to the point where I think the card begins to resemble the far-from-cubable Altar's Reap.
Safehold Elite is unexciting, but I agree- sometimes you just need a Bear with value. This guy usually makes the cut in my Green or White decks pretty comfortably, which I just don't think is true with any other option.
RW is kind of a problem. I might run Fire at Will from time to time, but it's so rough on the mana and you have better removal options in either of the colors it forces you to play tons of. Assailant is a bad Mogg Fanatic variant, but that's actually something I think the average White or Red deck would still play with. I think he's my choice.
BW is just loose. Unmake is probably more recognizably "strong," but exiling a creature isn't that big of a deal in this format and the mana on that card is just the worst. It's going to be a tough-to-cast Dark Banishing even in recursion-heavy cubes like mine. Gwyllion looks terrible, but is actually probably something Black or Black/White decks want in their cards (White decks seem like they might actually want Unmake from time to time). I don't want to run either of them, but by a similar token I can't fault you for choosing either one if you want a dedicated Hybrid section.
You both like Desecrator Hag, which I get but find interesting. Personally, I've been very impressed with Rendclaw Trow as a BG Hybrid. More independent value, compares favorably to most similar-cost creatures in either of its colors, and more reliable. Maybe I should start testing with Hag, though- I think Black uses Trow better than Green does, and given comparative color power it's probably better for the Cube if the hybrid is better in Green instead.
Minister of Impediments is OK, but I'd rather have Curse of Chains, I think. Narcolepsy is exactly the kind of card I want more of in the Cube, while I'm already running a little long on tapper dudes. Minister seems so Blue-centric that he should almost take a Blue slot if you want to run him. I just can't imagine ever playing that guy in a White deck and feeling good about it.
I think Scuzzback Marauders is better than Giantbaiting in general, so if you want universal applicability, it's your man. There are definitely archetypes that prefer the Baiting, though (I seem to remember it being the basis of a pretty good deck in SSS and SSE limited) and if you want an archetype card, a hybrid slot seems like a great place to put it.
My Trading Post! Bunches of valuable EDH/Modern/Legacy stuff, looking for foil commons!
Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
My Trading Post! Bunches of valuable EDH/Modern/Legacy stuff, looking for foil commons!
Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.