Nice Analysis Izor. I agree on +1/+1 counters lacking good payoff cards.
I would point out though, that some +1/+1 enablers (those that put +1/+1 counters on ANY creature) overlap with Auras to create what I would call go-tall archetype: Burst of Strength and Feat of Resistance are way better on Aven Fleetwing than on most other creatures.
Also Hexproof creatures, while are indeed the best payoff cards for go-tall, are not the only ones: I would argue that Double Strike, Lifelink and Vigilance make a card like Trollhide way better too (and, as a side note, allow you to play go-tall even if you don't like uninteraction).
Finally, regarding sacrifice payoff, I think that what we need the most is creatures or effects that do powerfull stuff sacrificing creatures, more than creatures that want to be sacrificed. Because as you pointed out, we have a stock of token makers that can fill that gap, and you could add a 'sacrifice X to do Y' in a swarm deck (or even in an aggro suicidal one), but you generally won't play a 'kill me to do Z' in a deck other than a dedicated sacrifice one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Holiday Armadillo... Cloak
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
@Al
True, Replace Feat of Resistance with Burrenton Bombardier.
What do you think about stop talking about 'auras'/'hexproof' and include those into a 'go-tall' archetype, with +1/+1 counters and some equipment as permapump, and lifelinkers+vigilance as bodies?
I think that would give us a better comprehension of that kind of decks.
Also I really like your 'hexproof is the way in which green makes control decks' perspective. Because from that point of view go-tall is just a way to have a good finisher for control / midrange in certain colours.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Holiday Armadillo... Cloak
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
Ramp is a viable in archetype driven cubes, because it also synergizes to an extend with comboish shenenigans, the aura/hexproof theme and ofc simple bigstuff.dec. Ofc stuff dies to removal, but at one point the opponent should run out of it. And a lot of removal is toughness based.
The archetype is too slow for powered cubes, because you lose too much on tempo in the early turns ramping up, but so are most of the others archetypes.
Green has Maul Splicer, which is good enough to run.
The problem is that we are likely never getting a 6+ mana creature which has good stats and a good ETB effect (or death trigger, or something that would help recover the tempo loss from its destruction). It just doesn't jive with the rarity.
Stuff like It of the Horrid Swarm comes close, but it probably needed an extra token to be playable. A Somberwald Stag that cost 4GG for a 3/3 would fit my bill. Or an Arborback Stomper that was a 4/3 vanilla for 3GG.
it kinda depends on the definition on the archetype I guess. I dont run pure rampspells like cultivate, but manaelves, signets, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Dawntreader Elk, Silhana Starfletcher, Civic Wayfinder and also the eldrazi spawns can be considered ramp (they also support tokens)
Stuff that lets you survive the early game and lets you ramp into fast 5-7 drops. As said, opponent cant handle every threat and most green 5+ drops are big threats already. You shouldnt cut on lands btw. Run the basic 17/23
Nice targets besides bombs like eldrazi are the cycle creatures Wirewood Guardian, Jungle Weaver, Elvish Aberration since they dont stuck on bad hands. Theyre also cute with whites resurrection spells. Breath of Life and False Defeat
If you go UG(w), you can ramp into shenanigans with blink Walker of the Grove also nice to resurrect btw. (might be the card pyredream is missing), Maul Splicer, the hexproof/aura theme and get access to strong draw
The 4cc guys served well in their respective limited formats. More so in Sealed than Draft. The issue I see is forcing these things into a rather tight pool of Green, diluting one of the more solid creature colors.
But, these are a way to allow Ramp to survive and still ramp, not just the Sylvan Ranger (search) bodies which just enable Landfall and deck thinning.
The graveyard shenanigans archetype is one of the strongest it Pauper, even though having a real reanimation spell outside of Exhume (which doesn't meet criterion 5.) would certainly help.
Absolutely no way, it's not close in quality to Civic Wayfinder.
You tap out on T3 for Fertilid and it's a Gray Ogre. If you need to block/trade with something, you get no lands. If your opponent uses removal on it, you get no lands. You can untap and pop a counter and... you're left with a 1/1? So you paid five mana, in two chunks, for Farhaven Elf?
The 4cc guys served well in their respective limited formats. More so in Sealed than Draft. The issue I see is forcing these things into a rather tight pool of Green, diluting one of the more solid creature colors.
But, these are a way to allow Ramp to survive and still ramp, not just the Sylvan Ranger (search) bodies which just enable Landfall and deck thinning.
A "search body" is just as good as actual ramp if you'd ever miss a land drop on, say, T4... and that happens all the time in draft.
Sylvan Ranger specifically is pretty mediocre since keeping a 1/1 body around usually isn't worth much, but Civic Wayfinder and Borderland Ranger are amazing cards since they put a 2/2 on the board while guaranteeing you can cast 4 and 5-cost stuff in future turns. I like those cards way more than most of the cards listed there.
Absolutely no way, it's not close in quality to Civic Wayfinder.
You tap out on T3 for Fertilid and it's a Gray Ogre. If you need to block/trade with something, you get no lands. If your opponent uses removal on it, you get no lands. You can untap and pop a counter and... you're left with a 1/1? So you paid five mana, in two chunks, for Farhaven Elf?
well on turn3 its worse, but if it survives a turn or you cast it later you can also chump and pay 4 to ramp. And if you have some stuff to give it more +1+1 counters it can become a fetch engine. That said I wouldnt run either in powered cubes.
It's been a good year and a half to two years since I've posted here, glad to see the Pauper Cube community is still going strong
I found my old Cube and decided it's time to update the guy. Are there any insane staples that have come out in the past 8 sets or so that I should be auto-including?
I'm going back to update after a couple of years hiatus, as well. I'm considering going from 450 to 360 because I don't have a large group anymore to draft, and also I'm considering making my multicolor section small but with uncommons to act as signposts for archetypes.
That being said, with Aether Revolt coming out could there be enough support to try UG energy? Plus cards like Thrummingbird and allowing the two UG uncommons from Kaladesh/Aether Revolt, I feel like it would be a fun way to finally have a UG deck that I'd feel comfortable with... but is there enough there? And is energy too parasitic to try? Has energy in Pauper Cube been discussed?
No, Energy is not a parasitic mechanic, because most of the cards using it, also generating it. Some of them are very good on their own. Look at stuff like Thriving Grubs or the Thriving Rhino.
Another question, still on the UG archetype train of thought: has anyone tried UG(x) Eldrazi? I searched and didn't seem to find anything. Most of the green token producers are labeled "Bad" in the Evaluate Everything, although the blue ones seem to be better. At least these:
the tokens are often more valuable if you keep them for masspump or overwhelming the blockers, than ramping into a single threat, that gets handled quickly. So UW or GW are the better color combination most of the time.
Also, adding certain uncommons, while fun, is going to leave you rather isolated from resl help here.
So this is a good point, but I'd like to rephrase my original question and get your thoughts again. What I'm wondering is the following: is the "Eldrazi Token" mechanic good enough in Pauper Cube to serve as a driving mechanic for UG Ramp? The reason I bring this up is that I, like apparently many others, really struggle with identifying what UG should do in draft and how to design for it. UG Ramp seems like a safe and logical choice, but I want to include a theme or cards that encourage the deck better than just including big blue and green creatures. So, I tried taking some inspiration from Eldritch Moon with the Emerge mechanic, but obviously you can't just make an "Emerge Archetype" in Pauper with only two targets. So I guess really what I'm trying to figure it is can you support UG Ramp through Eldrazi Token generators (along with other ramp cards like usual) and Eldrazi creatures as ramp targets (as well as other possible inclusions)? I wouldn't say to make this a "tribal" theme exactly, because Eldrazi tokens don't care what you sac them for and all but one Eldrazi ramp targets don't care how you cast them. So I'm more thinking about the Eldrazi as the core of the UG Ramp archetype with additional support from non-Eldrazi ramp cards/creatures as necessary. This might be kinda ramble-y but I hope I got that across well.
Also, point taken on the uncommon inclusion, although with my specific idea I feel that Peasant players would send me to Pauper threads and vice versa, so I figured it couldn't hurt to include it. I'm just considering making my small multicolor section Peasant to better provide "signpost" cards for archetypes (like Wizards is doing with multicolor uncommons currently in Limited design).
the tokens are often more valuable if you keep them for masspump or overwhelming the blockers, than ramping into a single threat, that gets handled quickly. So UW or GW are the better color combination most of the time.
^ This is my concern. I don't get to do a lot of testing, so I'm really not sure how well the tokens work as a ramp mechanism.
Frazzled Editor is really sweet and will be in my Cube (Peasant) basically forever. Apparently there's a MaRo "ruling" out there somewhere saying it means rules text only, but I had a copy in my cube for like a year and used it as total text so it really has protection from basically 90% of the average cube except for tokens.
--
Other options I haven't played:
Artful Looter is OK, does a lot of filtering when you hit your land drops but probably not better than the classic Merfolk Looter.
Cheap Ass is a 1/4 for 2 that lets you cast two 2-drops on T3.
I just drafted my cube with a couple of friends and I guess, with Modern Masters I switch to the power side again. It is just frustrating to have cards, only viable in an archetype and this archetype is even then weak and doesn't do much. So, I guess...
I feel your pain. I rarely get to draft my cube, but it is frustrating seeing cards going around that you know will never get picked because someone isn't in the archetype. This is especially true if you can't get 8 people to the draft. At the same time it does result in playables moving closer towards an actual booster draft. A powered cube usually results in 30-35 playables for me and that just seems over the top.
I would point out though, that some +1/+1 enablers (those that put +1/+1 counters on ANY creature) overlap with Auras to create what I would call go-tall archetype: Burst of Strength and Feat of Resistance are way better on Aven Fleetwing than on most other creatures.
Also Hexproof creatures, while are indeed the best payoff cards for go-tall, are not the only ones: I would argue that Double Strike, Lifelink and Vigilance make a card like Trollhide way better too (and, as a side note, allow you to play go-tall even if you don't like uninteraction).
Finally, regarding sacrifice payoff, I think that what we need the most is creatures or effects that do powerfull stuff sacrificing creatures, more than creatures that want to be sacrificed. Because as you pointed out, we have a stock of token makers that can fill that gap, and you could add a 'sacrifice X to do Y' in a swarm deck (or even in an aggro suicidal one), but you generally won't play a 'kill me to do Z' in a deck other than a dedicated sacrifice one.
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
True, Replace Feat of Resistance with Burrenton Bombardier.
What do you think about stop talking about 'auras'/'hexproof' and include those into a 'go-tall' archetype, with +1/+1 counters and some equipment as permapump, and lifelinkers+vigilance as bodies?
I think that would give us a better comprehension of that kind of decks.
Also I really like your 'hexproof is the way in which green makes control decks' perspective. Because from that point of view go-tall is just a way to have a good finisher for control / midrange in certain colours.
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
The archetype is too slow for powered cubes, because you lose too much on tempo in the early turns ramping up, but so are most of the others archetypes.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
The problem is that we are likely never getting a 6+ mana creature which has good stats and a good ETB effect (or death trigger, or something that would help recover the tempo loss from its destruction). It just doesn't jive with the rarity.
Stuff like It of the Horrid Swarm comes close, but it probably needed an extra token to be playable. A Somberwald Stag that cost 4GG for a 3/3 would fit my bill. Or an Arborback Stomper that was a 4/3 vanilla for 3GG.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
Stuff that lets you survive the early game and lets you ramp into fast 5-7 drops. As said, opponent cant handle every threat and most green 5+ drops are big threats already. You shouldnt cut on lands btw. Run the basic 17/23
Nice targets besides bombs like eldrazi are the cycle creatures Wirewood Guardian, Jungle Weaver, Elvish Aberration since they dont stuck on bad hands. Theyre also cute with whites resurrection spells. Breath of Life and False Defeat
If you go UG(w), you can ramp into shenanigans with blink Walker of the Grove also nice to resurrect btw. (might be the card pyredream is missing), Maul Splicer, the hexproof/aura theme and get access to strong draw
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
The 4cc guys served well in their respective limited formats. More so in Sealed than Draft. The issue I see is forcing these things into a rather tight pool of Green, diluting one of the more solid creature colors.
But, these are a way to allow Ramp to survive and still ramp, not just the Sylvan Ranger (search) bodies which just enable Landfall and deck thinning.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
Breath of Life?
...not that I run it, despite running Exhume.
http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/7023
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Absolutely no way, it's not close in quality to Civic Wayfinder.
You tap out on T3 for Fertilid and it's a Gray Ogre. If you need to block/trade with something, you get no lands. If your opponent uses removal on it, you get no lands. You can untap and pop a counter and... you're left with a 1/1? So you paid five mana, in two chunks, for Farhaven Elf?
A "search body" is just as good as actual ramp if you'd ever miss a land drop on, say, T4... and that happens all the time in draft.
Sylvan Ranger specifically is pretty mediocre since keeping a 1/1 body around usually isn't worth much, but Civic Wayfinder and Borderland Ranger are amazing cards since they put a 2/2 on the board while guaranteeing you can cast 4 and 5-cost stuff in future turns. I like those cards way more than most of the cards listed there.
well on turn3 its worse, but if it survives a turn or you cast it later you can also chump and pay 4 to ramp. And if you have some stuff to give it more +1+1 counters it can become a fetch engine. That said I wouldnt run either in powered cubes.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
It's been a good year and a half to two years since I've posted here, glad to see the Pauper Cube community is still going strong
I found my old Cube and decided it's time to update the guy. Are there any insane staples that have come out in the past 8 sets or so that I should be auto-including?
Cheers
Twin Bolt and his reprint sister Chandra's Pyrohelix are really good.
Than there is the insane Renegade Freighter and the cute Thriving Grubs from Kaladesh.
For green I remember Terrain Elemental.
Oh and of course Ash Barrens from the recent Commander Set. Probably the most important.
These are the ones I remember, but you may take a look at the staples and cubeables in the Evaluate Everything Thread. It's up to date.
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
That being said, with Aether Revolt coming out could there be enough support to try UG energy? Plus cards like Thrummingbird and allowing the two UG uncommons from Kaladesh/Aether Revolt, I feel like it would be a fun way to finally have a UG deck that I'd feel comfortable with... but is there enough there? And is energy too parasitic to try? Has energy in Pauper Cube been discussed?
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
Ramp Creatures:
Eldrazi Skyspawner
Eyeless Watcher
Incubator Drone
Kozilek's Predator
Nest Invader
Kozilek's Channeler
Scion Summoner
Warden of Geometries
Possible Eldrazi Targets (in addition to normal ramp targets):
Ulamog's Crusher
Eldrazi Devastator
It of the Horrid Swarm
Wretched Gryff
Hand of Emrakul
And following my previous post, Lashweed Lurker in my specific situation. You could also possibly recycle your Wood Elves ramp creatures to Emerge.
Also, adding certain uncommons, while fun, is going to leave you rather isolated from resl help here.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
So this is a good point, but I'd like to rephrase my original question and get your thoughts again. What I'm wondering is the following: is the "Eldrazi Token" mechanic good enough in Pauper Cube to serve as a driving mechanic for UG Ramp? The reason I bring this up is that I, like apparently many others, really struggle with identifying what UG should do in draft and how to design for it. UG Ramp seems like a safe and logical choice, but I want to include a theme or cards that encourage the deck better than just including big blue and green creatures. So, I tried taking some inspiration from Eldritch Moon with the Emerge mechanic, but obviously you can't just make an "Emerge Archetype" in Pauper with only two targets. So I guess really what I'm trying to figure it is can you support UG Ramp through Eldrazi Token generators (along with other ramp cards like usual) and Eldrazi creatures as ramp targets (as well as other possible inclusions)? I wouldn't say to make this a "tribal" theme exactly, because Eldrazi tokens don't care what you sac them for and all but one Eldrazi ramp targets don't care how you cast them. So I'm more thinking about the Eldrazi as the core of the UG Ramp archetype with additional support from non-Eldrazi ramp cards/creatures as necessary. This might be kinda ramble-y but I hope I got that across well.
Also, point taken on the uncommon inclusion, although with my specific idea I feel that Peasant players would send me to Pauper threads and vice versa, so I figured it couldn't hurt to include it. I'm just considering making my small multicolor section Peasant to better provide "signpost" cards for archetypes (like Wizards is doing with multicolor uncommons currently in Limited design).
^ This is my concern. I don't get to do a lot of testing, so I'm really not sure how well the tokens work as a ramp mechanism.
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
--
Other options I haven't played:
Artful Looter is OK, does a lot of filtering when you hit your land drops but probably not better than the classic Merfolk Looter.
Cheap Ass is a 1/4 for 2 that lets you cast two 2-drops on T3.
Duh is OK removal for one mana.
Knight of the Hokey Pokey is a hard-to-remove first striker for 2.
Wordmail is a cute little aura. I bought a foil copy when Seeker of the Way was printed, but it's nothing special overall.
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
My singleton Masters Cube