TBH I just so badly want to cube Scab-Clan Giant, probably my favorite limited card of all time. I'm so close to just putting it in my pauper cube right now.
In a similar vein of giants, I have a soft spot for Akoum Boulderfoot and Fleshpulper Giant. Fleshpulper in particular could have had the random clause, as the need to take out a specific utility dork or savannah lion once you get to seven mana is outweighed by the need to catch up with the raw 2-for-1 imho.
Howdy, I built an exact copy of Lanxal's Pauper Cube last year. Here is a link. He has not updated his in about a year. Could you all take a look at his list and tell me how I should update it? Thank you in advance.
I think there's maybe seven cubers who post here regularly. And they all have links to their cubes in their sigs. So it doesn't take much work to look up a handful of lists and see what's changed. It would certainly beat waiting in this thread for however many days it's been for an answer that may or may not come
I have read almost all the post you have publish in the pass years, this last week (Including articles (TY: Night_Hydra) and Watching/Drafting the every cube).
You help me so much to improve my understanding about pauper cube.
Thank you so much.
But now i have a question i think may help a lot off people in the art of cube building:
How many narrow cards should i include to enforce(improve) certain archetypes?
By including this kind of cards i'm telling my drafters "Hey BG Graveyard is a thing", specially in the case of Grisly Salvage due the fact that is a gold card, helping new people (first time drafting the cube) to know what kind of archetypes are "Safe" drafting.
But at the same time both of this cards are garbage in almost any non graveyard/recursion deck, therefore not worth including in the cube (specially in a 360 cube) because the more flexible cards will be pick over the narrowest cards.
I found the same situation with every archetype I trying to support, and I wonder if doing this will lower "the skill requirement", or if there are some "healthy" ratio off narrow inclusion, like 1 or 2 cards per archetype.
So on average when I run a draft I have people making cuts from a pool of about 30-35 cards that could make their deck. This often includes lands, so for example I've had zero cuts to make before when drafting 4-color nonsense. But the point of this is that we have PLENTY of playables on raw power level, and removing the lowest 3-5 in a color to make room for some more archetype-focused cards should be totally reasonable from my perspective at 360. I'd be interested to see what other people think. I've been making this transition slowly, with my initial focus on a voltron/auras deck and a more aggro green deck, but with an eye towards some kind of graveyard synergies in the future. I'd be interested to hear what others have had success with.
It depends how many cards you draft. If you draft 3 packs of 15 cards each, 45 picks is way more than you will ever need to build your deck, especially in Pauper Cube, where even the "worst" card is still going to be a decent limited card. That leaves plenty of room for narrow cards that reward players for trying to draft some weird archetype. (There are other interesting ways to make use of that "extra space" too, for example, cards that are never good enough to maindeck but are amazing when sideboarded against certain decks.)
It's also worth nothing that you can make the format a lot more of skill test by shrinking pack size/drafting less cards, if you're into that. Personally, I like drafting a lot of cards and being able to make riskier picks to potentially end up with a wacky deck, without worrying my deck is going to just suck.
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Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
I will generally accept a very average card in my cube if it will significantly make a certain archetype more viable. Griffin Protector and Ivy Lane Denizen are two examples of very average cards on their own. They are still acceptable in any deck if you need a part of your curve filled and if you have a lot of creatures they become slightly better. However, they also can go bonkers in a token heavy deck. The big positive of these cards is that they will be late picks for decks not running the targeted theme which means they should wheel to the players that really want them.
In your specific example I would prefer something like Satyr Wayfinder instead of Commune with the Gods as it can provide some land smoothing and utility in decks outside of the targeted theme. Outside of graveyard matters decks Commune with the Gods will never get played. Another factor to consider is if you include multiples in your cube. Putting more delvers and threshold creatures in will obviously strengthen such narrow cards.
In my extremely limited experience, Sparkmage's Gambit has been solid, Corpse Churn and Clutch of Currents have been decent, and Ghoulcaller's Apprentice has been mediocre. I have yet to play with or against Valakut Predator, but it looks good on paper. Any thoughts?
So I spent a couple of hours today updating my cube for the last couple of sets I've missed. You can see all the changes here: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/306 and I was hoping for some feedback on them, if anyone had any to give I
Referred to the subject, a card that bothers me a little bit, is Troubled Healer. It sure messes up with combat math, but I feel like in the end it could also read like: "Creatures you control have protection from red instants and sorceries." This card is only Ok, against other colors, but it crushes red completly. Is this really an effect we (people who dislike color hate) want?
I think Troubled Healer is good enough against non-red decks for it to see a decent amount of play (especially in late-game scenarios), even though it's definitely at its best against burn. The fact that certain cards are incredibly hard for certain colors to deal with doesn't mean that they're color-hate.
I dont get the hate upon W.E since usually prot:singlecolor is considered fine, because most cubedecks end up 2-colored anyway. and the boas are actually kind of worse, because the 2nd color doesnt really help fighting them. And since I consider W.E a maindeckable card, due to pump ive got no problems running it.
Troubled Healer is a good mainboard card as well and since a lot complained about red being close to overpowered it shouldnt be a problematic card in the first place.
I agree with Humphrey. I don't get the hate against protection creatures. I don't think I will include the emissary after all, but I wouldn't exclude a card just because it has protection from a given color.
I don't mind creatures with protection from certain colors (or evasion against certain basic land types, etc.) at all as long as they're good enough to see play against other decks. It's when stuff starts to function like Circles of Protection that it gets way too narrow for my cube.
On an unrelated note, has anyone has any experience with Pulse of Murasa? Its success in pauper constructed and in its limited environment has me interested at the very least.
I love Pulse of Murasa. The six life is awesome vs aggro and burn decks and it can put you ahead in tight games. Picking up your best creature from the graveyard is always useful.
I love Pulse of Murasa. The six life is awesome vs aggro and burn decks and it can put you ahead in tight games. Picking up your best creature from the graveyard is always useful.
looks like a sideboard card to me. i dont run them, but i can see people adding them for balance reasons.
I think it's definitely a contender. The instant type is a big deal for me. Three mana is borderline for the effect tho. I think a 1G instant that gave you 4 life would be fantastic. Green's answer to Lone Missionary
Color protection is balanced to not be too game-ending by itself. You usually need extra cards in the form of auras or equipment to make it a problem. Even then, it's almost certainly not game-ending enough to be a problem in pauper. The worst thing that can happen is a Guardian of the Guildpact equipped with Bonesplitter or Armadillo Cloak. That's a far cry from Mirran Paladin equipped with Umezawa's Jitte against a Golgari deck
Backstory: Used to play pretty competitively up until about Ravnica/Lorwyn. (Can't believe how much has passed since then...). Now, my friend and I who have moved more into playing other board games, want to have some Magic we can cycle in too. I figured a cube would be great - since if we each buy a budget competitive deck, it would be around the same cost, yet very repetitive. I feel like a pauper cube is my best option (since it's also portable like any other board game) and it will have replay value. And I've checked a few, and it seems all of them are 80-100. It would be ideal staying under 100.
I know based on reading this thread, a cube is very personal and creative there - thus you can take whatever flavor or styles you want and work with it. That being said, since I'm just starting out a new cube, I don't know what I'd want to focus on.
Thus, my main idea is the "average" general pauper cube. Whatever is the normal list to follow.
Is there a generally accepted list to follow? Once I find my list I'm going to pop it into the TCGPlayer Mass entry. From reading these posts, I know a previous comment mentioned Al Heimer's List and Humphrey's list? Are they the best options? I also learned about CubeTutor, and when I saw it has the "Average" cube - I figured that was perfect for me - since i just want the normal pauper cube I've heard 2 issues. A) Since it aggregates all of the cubes, if people don't update their lists, the average list is partially behind. B) Since it's an algorithm it can ruin the color balance, mana curve etc. Whereas a unique list would have made minute changes to fix it. Is that true? Or is the Average Pauper good to be played out of the box if I just copy it and buy all of the cards on it?
I see Humphrey and Al are regulars here! I really like both of your lists - I have some questions. For Humphrey I see alot of of the list run some common mana fixing lands (bouncelands etc) did you remove them? For Al, I see your list has Homelands (I think that's the set with Horsemanship) in it - I would prefer to not have that - If I just remove them would that ruin some of the balance or value of your overall cube?
My cube is "non-powered" / archetype oriented / fer magic cube.
Functional Reprints: No
Balanced colors: Yes
Low mana cube: Yes
Online Only Commons: No
Modern Frame Cards Only: No
Fully Pimp-able: Yes
"Free" (0 CMC) Spells: No
Vanilla Creatures: No
I strongly recommend you read the threads The "Evaluate Everything" Project and This or that both of witch contains interesting debates (between people with years of experience) and useful resources, that will help you understand the "ins and outs" of pauper cube design.
Since I have 2 cubes I have the best of both worlds
My Tier1-cube plays pretty much like an eternal format, which tend to be tempo-orientated. Its balanced and slots are very tight. The overall gameplay experience of this cube doesnt change a lot with new sets. Most cards are considered staples and have a high powerlevel on its own. Notable archetypes are White-Wheenie, RG Beatz, BlackControl, Ux Tempo, UR Spells Matters, all sorts of midrange color combinations. Deckbuilding is pretty crucial, because youll end with 45playables, but have to focus on an archetype.
I only run the bouncelands, because cip lands are too slow there and many cards are basic land dependant like kird ape
If you prefer fast games with straight forward decks, get this one
My Tier2-cube is a total different thing, the singles are way less powerful. Its pretty much a nerfed cube, so card synergies and interactions are more important. Id say this is the more interesting cube, because it changes regularly. I change around 5-10 cards each new set. The archetypes are not as focused like the tier1´s. Decks can be build in many different ways. I support sacrifice, tokens, madness, uw skies, ur control, ramp and all sorts of blink shenenigans and multicolordecks. Therefore I run 20 duals and the signets.
If you prefer grindy games with lots of cute interactions, get this one
Ofc im biased towards my cubes, but my advice would be, get both and play them. Once both cubes are "solved", you could also mix them to a 720 cube which might be more interesting depending on how often you are able to cube. It definitely gives you a solid cardpool to build a personal 360 version from it.
I wouldnt recommend the "average" cubetutor cube. Its unbalanced and the metagame needs to be adjusted, because certain cards are only useful with their archetype or theme support. Also I think creating an interesting and good cube needs a lot time and effort which most cubetutor users dont invest.
Also I think creating an interesting and good cube needs a lot time and effort which most cubetutor users dont invest.
Creating a cube, especially a non-powered one takes countless hours of work testing and switching cards, refining the balance between colors and archetypes.
To throw my two cents in, start with a powered cube. It is far more straight forward and easy to make decisions about what to include and cut. There are also a few good examples floating around as well. Watered down cubes that put more emphasis on supporting archetypes require far more actual play testing and tweaking and generally make adding and cutting a lot more painful. I have spent so long twiddling with my current cube and I know it needs way more play testing.
Wow! Thanks for all the helpful responses, guys. This is great!
@AL - Thanks for the correction - I knew it was an obscure set name (Not Homelands but Portal). Since it's only 1 that's good news, Ill take it out and switch it for something else (I didn't like it for the same reasons you listed.)
It's gong to be a hard choice between yours and Humphrey's Tier 1 cube!
To throw my two cents in, start with a powered cube. It is far more straight forward and easy to make decisions about what to include and cut. There are also a few good examples floating around as well. Watered down cubes that put more emphasis on supporting archetypes require far more actual play testing and tweaking and generally make adding and cutting a lot more painful. I have spent so long twiddling with my current cube and I know it needs way more play testing.
Those are some awesome points too. I agree I'll start with a Powered one - which I think Al or Humphreys fit perfectly. As I mentioned before, since I don't know what I'll like and don't like, I do want to copy a list first, and go from there. Then, with experience I can see what I like (I.e. the individual changes and personality each person adds to their cube).
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In a similar vein of giants, I have a soft spot for Akoum Boulderfoot and Fleshpulper Giant. Fleshpulper in particular could have had the random clause, as the need to take out a specific utility dork or savannah lion once you get to seven mana is outweighed by the need to catch up with the raw 2-for-1 imho.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
EDIT: Here it is on CubeTutor.
Modern
RUBW Affinity
BGR Midrange
UWR Control
RG Titan Shift
RW Burn
GW Bogles
G Tron
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
I have read almost all the post you have publish in the pass years, this last week (Including articles (TY: Night_Hydra) and Watching/Drafting the every cube).
You help me so much to improve my understanding about pauper cube.
Thank you so much.
But now i have a question i think may help a lot off people in the art of cube building:
How many narrow cards should i include to enforce(improve) certain archetypes?
Example:
Grisly Salvage and Commune with the Gods are cards that work extremely well with the Delve(Hooting Mandrills) or Threshold(Werebear) mechanics.
By including this kind of cards i'm telling my drafters "Hey BG Graveyard is a thing", specially in the case of Grisly Salvage due the fact that is a gold card, helping new people (first time drafting the cube) to know what kind of archetypes are "Safe" drafting.
But at the same time both of this cards are garbage in almost any non graveyard/recursion deck, therefore not worth including in the cube (specially in a 360 cube) because the more flexible cards will be pick over the narrowest cards.
I found the same situation with every archetype I trying to support, and I wonder if doing this will lower "the skill requirement", or if there are some "healthy" ratio off narrow inclusion, like 1 or 2 cards per archetype.
**My English my suck sorry...**
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
Level 1 Judge
It's also worth nothing that you can make the format a lot more of skill test by shrinking pack size/drafting less cards, if you're into that. Personally, I like drafting a lot of cards and being able to make riskier picks to potentially end up with a wacky deck, without worrying my deck is going to just suck.
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
Click here and check out my Formerly Pauper Cube.
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
In your specific example I would prefer something like Satyr Wayfinder instead of Commune with the Gods as it can provide some land smoothing and utility in decks outside of the targeted theme. Outside of graveyard matters decks Commune with the Gods will never get played. Another factor to consider is if you include multiples in your cube. Putting more delvers and threshold creatures in will obviously strengthen such narrow cards.
My singleton Masters Cube
In my extremely limited experience, Sparkmage's Gambit has been solid, Corpse Churn and Clutch of Currents have been decent, and Ghoulcaller's Apprentice has been mediocre. I have yet to play with or against Valakut Predator, but it looks good on paper. Any thoughts?
Level 1 Judge
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
Click here and check out my Formerly Pauper Cube.
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I think Troubled Healer is good enough against non-red decks for it to see a decent amount of play (especially in late-game scenarios), even though it's definitely at its best against burn. The fact that certain cards are incredibly hard for certain colors to deal with doesn't mean that they're color-hate.
Troubled Healer is a good mainboard card as well and since a lot complained about red being close to overpowered it shouldnt be a problematic card in the first place.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Level 1 Judge
My singleton Masters Cube
looks like a sideboard card to me. i dont run them, but i can see people adding them for balance reasons.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Color protection is balanced to not be too game-ending by itself. You usually need extra cards in the form of auras or equipment to make it a problem. Even then, it's almost certainly not game-ending enough to be a problem in pauper. The worst thing that can happen is a Guardian of the Guildpact equipped with Bonesplitter or Armadillo Cloak. That's a far cry from Mirran Paladin equipped with Umezawa's Jitte against a Golgari deck
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
Looking to build a pauper cube!
Backstory: Used to play pretty competitively up until about Ravnica/Lorwyn. (Can't believe how much has passed since then...). Now, my friend and I who have moved more into playing other board games, want to have some Magic we can cycle in too. I figured a cube would be great - since if we each buy a budget competitive deck, it would be around the same cost, yet very repetitive. I feel like a pauper cube is my best option (since it's also portable like any other board game) and it will have replay value. And I've checked a few, and it seems all of them are 80-100. It would be ideal staying under 100.
I know based on reading this thread, a cube is very personal and creative there - thus you can take whatever flavor or styles you want and work with it. That being said, since I'm just starting out a new cube, I don't know what I'd want to focus on.
Thus, my main idea is the "average" general pauper cube. Whatever is the normal list to follow.
Is there a generally accepted list to follow? Once I find my list I'm going to pop it into the TCGPlayer Mass entry. From reading these posts, I know a previous comment mentioned Al Heimer's List and Humphrey's list? Are they the best options? I also learned about CubeTutor, and when I saw it has the "Average" cube - I figured that was perfect for me - since i just want the normal pauper cube I've heard 2 issues. A) Since it aggregates all of the cubes, if people don't update their lists, the average list is partially behind. B) Since it's an algorithm it can ruin the color balance, mana curve etc. Whereas a unique list would have made minute changes to fix it. Is that true? Or is the Average Pauper good to be played out of the box if I just copy it and buy all of the cards on it?
I see Humphrey and Al are regulars here! I really like both of your lists - I have some questions. For Humphrey I see alot of of the list run some common mana fixing lands (bouncelands etc) did you remove them? For Al, I see your list has Homelands (I think that's the set with Horsemanship) in it - I would prefer to not have that - If I just remove them would that ruin some of the balance or value of your overall cube?
Sorry if I provided too much info!
My cube is "non-powered" / archetype oriented / fer magic cube.
Functional Reprints: No
Balanced colors: Yes
Low mana cube: Yes
Online Only Commons: No
Modern Frame Cards Only: No
Fully Pimp-able: Yes
"Free" (0 CMC) Spells: No
Vanilla Creatures: No
I strongly recommend you read the threads The "Evaluate Everything" Project and This or that both of witch contains interesting debates (between people with years of experience) and useful resources, that will help you understand the "ins and outs" of pauper cube design.
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
Since I have 2 cubes I have the best of both worlds
My Tier1-cube plays pretty much like an eternal format, which tend to be tempo-orientated. Its balanced and slots are very tight. The overall gameplay experience of this cube doesnt change a lot with new sets. Most cards are considered staples and have a high powerlevel on its own. Notable archetypes are White-Wheenie, RG Beatz, BlackControl, Ux Tempo, UR Spells Matters, all sorts of midrange color combinations. Deckbuilding is pretty crucial, because youll end with 45playables, but have to focus on an archetype.
I only run the bouncelands, because cip lands are too slow there and many cards are basic land dependant like kird ape
If you prefer fast games with straight forward decks, get this one
My Tier2-cube is a total different thing, the singles are way less powerful. Its pretty much a nerfed cube, so card synergies and interactions are more important. Id say this is the more interesting cube, because it changes regularly. I change around 5-10 cards each new set. The archetypes are not as focused like the tier1´s. Decks can be build in many different ways. I support sacrifice, tokens, madness, uw skies, ur control, ramp and all sorts of blink shenenigans and multicolordecks. Therefore I run 20 duals and the signets.
If you prefer grindy games with lots of cute interactions, get this one
Ofc im biased towards my cubes, but my advice would be, get both and play them. Once both cubes are "solved", you could also mix them to a 720 cube which might be more interesting depending on how often you are able to cube. It definitely gives you a solid cardpool to build a personal 360 version from it.
I wouldnt recommend the "average" cubetutor cube. Its unbalanced and the metagame needs to be adjusted, because certain cards are only useful with their archetype or theme support. Also I think creating an interesting and good cube needs a lot time and effort which most cubetutor users dont invest.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Especially with the last part:
Creating a cube, especially a non-powered one takes countless hours of work testing and switching cards, refining the balance between colors and archetypes.
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
My singleton Masters Cube
@AL - Thanks for the correction - I knew it was an obscure set name (Not Homelands but Portal). Since it's only 1 that's good news, Ill take it out and switch it for something else (I didn't like it for the same reasons you listed.)
It's gong to be a hard choice between yours and Humphrey's Tier 1 cube!
Those are some awesome points too. I agree I'll start with a Powered one - which I think Al or Humphreys fit perfectly. As I mentioned before, since I don't know what I'll like and don't like, I do want to copy a list first, and go from there. Then, with experience I can see what I like (I.e. the individual changes and personality each person adds to their cube).