well, i think the "problem" here is, that izor wants to play sealed with his cube. an archetype oriented cube with lots of bad and mediocre cards without specific synergies wont be a lot of fun to play then. i also noticed that problem, when we once tried to do this with my tier2. A working sealed cube has to have a powerlevel design.
i myself dont want to chose between either the powerlevel challenge or the archetype challenge and just built 2 cubes instead. but i like the powerlevel cube much more. most archetypes still lack some really powerful cards at common to make games more fun and interesting.
My cube is more like Izor's, and I haven't gotten bored with it yet I also agree with Humphrey that some of the new archetypes / themes people have been experimenting with lately maybe don't have enough powerful support cards to include without cutting some other good all-around cards in order to make that archetype viable. In most cases, asserting something is "poor cube design" is not a valid statement, because that assertion assumes what cube design goals should be valued in the first place. Perhaps you could make an argument that supporting more synergistic archetypes is more "creative cube design," but I'm not sure that's even a valid statement since you have to consider a ton of synergies in "normal" cubes that focus primarily on core archetypes and powerful cards, while some of the new archetypes people are experimenting with have a lot of really obvious card inclusions that don't require that much creativity to select.
One interesting topic that might be worth discussing is how designing for draft vs. sealed vs. other formats might impact card choices. It's hard enough for me to get more than 4 people together to draft; it's so much easier for me to do sealed round robins or fringe draft variants. I definitely design my cube for sealed, but I haven't noticed any negative impacts while drafting it. Another thing I've been working on recently is building two-color "intro decks" from my cube and using those to help teach some people to play Magic. I need to refine the lists, but so far people seem to like them quite a bit.
One interesting topic that might be worth discussing is how designing for draft vs. sealed vs. other formats might impact card choices. It's hard enough for me to get more than 4 people together to draft; it's so much easier for me to do sealed round robins or fringe draft variants. I definitely design my cube for sealed, but I haven't noticed any negative impacts while drafting it. Another thing I've been working on recently is building two-color "intro decks" from my cube and using those to help teach some people to play Magic. I need to refine the lists, but so far people seem to like them quite a bit.
Personally, I sometimes am lucky enough to get 8 people together for a draft, which makes it easier for archetypes to come together, but there's enough powerful cards in the cube that even without the full set of cards, people are doing interesting and fun things with their decks. I think including individual cards that lend themselves to being built around works best for smaller groups of people. It can be easy to go overboard with these, as I have done in the past, but testing with cube tutor helps to see how often these sorts of cards appear and how it affects a sealed pool.
I've also done the same sort of deck-building exercise as you from time to time. I usually try to build them 10 at a time to cover each color pair. I've largely used them for testing purposes, to see how the colors work together in order to see how I might further emphasize the synergies I like with more cards, but they also worked quite well as an introduction to what the colors do in the cube. Green paired with Red will play differently than Green paired with White, which is easier to see with decks illustrating the difference.
And Izor, we've already discussed these cards on a pure power level basis. It's been done. There's nothing to talk about.
This just isn't true. Sure, everyone knows that Guardian of the Guildpact is great, etc. But it's not that everyone who focuses on "power level" has identical cubes. For instance, CubeTutor tells me that 120 cards differ between my cube and Humphrey's cube. That's a lot of stuff to potentially talk about. I'm sure that if you looked at other diffs, there would be lots to talk about. Moreover, part of the cube design process is constantly trying to balance things. I highly doubt any of us are actually completely satisfied with the balance in our cubes; that's something we can talk about. Further, unless I've missed a lot of discusison, last time I checked, there's not a consensus here about what "power level" actually means; that's something we can talk about. Moreover, I don't think we actually know even exactly what archetypes are the most powerful; for instance, there was some discussion recently about whether ramp was even good enough right now to include. Other topics include things like combat tricks (which I push harder than most people here), removal density (which was a big topic a while ago that I don't think ever got fully fleshed out), properly supporting tempo vs. aggro, whether control decks have a really hard time right now, etc. There's lots of stuff to talk about on a pure "power level basis" as well lots to talk about regarding pauper cube in general, and lots to talk about with regards to designing other archetypes / themes. Pauper cube is nowhere near solved.
This place is no longer an appropriate place for you. What you want to discuss, I repeat, has been done.
I'm really not a fan of exclusionary language like this. He is literally talking about topics that fall under the purview of this forum, and his discussion clearly belongs here. Moreover, given how few people regularly participate on this forum, actively trying to exclude people from discussion has a huge negative effect. The "you don't belong here anymore" attitude is exactly why a lot of people stay away from MTGS in the first place; as a community we should be better than that.
Also, if you don't want to talk about some topic, then just don't respond to that post / thread. Nobody's forcing you to respond, and you're always free to make your own posts / threads. Personally, I read everything pauper related on here (and a lot of peasant related things as well), even if it's not something I'm immediately interested in doing, just because it's usually interesting to think about.
Moreover, part of the cube design process is constantly trying to balance things. I highly doubt any of us are actually completely satisfied with the balance in our cubes; that's something we can talk about. Further, unless I've missed a lot of discusison, last time I checked, there's not a consensus here about what "power level" actually means; that's something we can talk about. Moreover, I don't think we actually know even exactly what archetypes are the most powerful; for instance, there was some discussion recently about whether ramp was even good enough right now to include. Other topics include things like combat tricks (which I push harder than most people here), removal density (which was a big topic a while ago that I don't think ever got fully fleshed out), properly supporting tempo vs. aggro, whether control decks have a really hard time right now, etc. There's lots of stuff to talk about on a pure "power level basis" as well lots to talk about regarding pauper cube in general, and lots to talk about with regards to designing other archetypes / themes. Pauper cube is nowhere near solved.
yeah, I dont like it either trying to push people out of the forum.
about your points
120 cards are 1/3 of my cube, so thats a lot to talk about lol, since I put so many hours into my cube that I hope im very close to the most powerful cube available. Also Id call my cube very balanced and im very happy with it. It slightly changes with new cards, though and we dont play it often enough to get "perfect" balance.
Im sure, I already posted my definition of powerlevel somewhere, but let me try again. First of all we have 2 directions of power. Tempo and Value, one will win you the game quickly, one will win long grindy games. Wether or not you prefer tempocards over valuecards is a little personal preference, but Id argue that tempo is the stronger power. Therefore you shouldnt cut too hard on 1- and 2-drops.
Now we have to compare the cards to each other and find out whats is the best manacost to power ratio in a vaccuum and put them into your cube.
Then you can reevaluate the cards in your specific meta, because power changes with synergies/interactions.
About the archetypes, I think we now have a density of powerful commons that "goodstuff" will outperform the more specific archetypes. The best ones are probably GW or RW Tokens (takes a lot of slots), UGw Aura/Hexproof (most hexproof dudes suck w/o Auras and vice versa), UR spells matters (probably the easiest to support, but weak to removal heavy decks)
Ramp is strong as tempoplay, when you dont run ramponly cards, but more flexible ones like manaelves and ETB creatures and dont push the manacurve too high.
Combat tricks are some kind of burn/removal so you have to compare them to it. Only a few are better.
I don't see why the two discussions can't coexist. When I work to include archetypes in my cube, I always try to evaluate it on a power level first. Cards can server multiple purposes and be powerful without having to rely on archetype synergy. Granted some archetypes just produce filler packs, but that is why we have this forum, so we can discuss and figure out how to make powerful cubes with synergies built in. There is plenty of good input coming from everyone on here.
Would be fine, but in a world without dual lands they are weaker terramorphic expanses.
The mirage fetches in new border are very pretty though, with their reprints in the duel decks.
I tried Mage-Ring Bully, and it was pretty bad. Being forced to attack every turn is a terrible drawback, and the bully isn't good enough to overcome this drawback. I didn't test the sergeant, but it seems fine. I would run Splatter Thug, Blood Ogre, and probably Fault Riders before it though.
Speaking of red 3 drops, has anyone else tried Boggart Brute? I think its one of reds best 3 drops, and would run it above anything listed above except for Splatter Thug. Its extremely hard to block, especially with all the removal red has.
I also really like Sheer Drop. Its like a bad Shriekmaw for pauper, but a bad Shriekmaw is still a solid card. I am really excited to see what else they do with this keyword, as it has a lot of potential (even though its just a fancy version of kicker).
I don't like fight spells because of the 2 for 1 potential, and because its often not worthwhile to attack with the creature that fought, as it already has damage on it, and will likely trade down in combat. I don't see a reason to play bad removal just because that is the only removal green has access too, and would rather just get removal from any of the other colors. I would run Utopia Vow before I touched any of the fight spells.
Edit: Epic Confrontation is the only fight spell I can think of that gets around the combat issue, and I noticed you didn't list that one. It is easily the best fight spell.
i myself dont want to chose between either the powerlevel challenge or the archetype challenge and just built 2 cubes instead. but i like the powerlevel cube much more. most archetypes still lack some really powerful cards at common to make games more fun and interesting.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
One interesting topic that might be worth discussing is how designing for draft vs. sealed vs. other formats might impact card choices. It's hard enough for me to get more than 4 people together to draft; it's so much easier for me to do sealed round robins or fringe draft variants. I definitely design my cube for sealed, but I haven't noticed any negative impacts while drafting it. Another thing I've been working on recently is building two-color "intro decks" from my cube and using those to help teach some people to play Magic. I need to refine the lists, but so far people seem to like them quite a bit.
Personally, I sometimes am lucky enough to get 8 people together for a draft, which makes it easier for archetypes to come together, but there's enough powerful cards in the cube that even without the full set of cards, people are doing interesting and fun things with their decks. I think including individual cards that lend themselves to being built around works best for smaller groups of people. It can be easy to go overboard with these, as I have done in the past, but testing with cube tutor helps to see how often these sorts of cards appear and how it affects a sealed pool.
I've also done the same sort of deck-building exercise as you from time to time. I usually try to build them 10 at a time to cover each color pair. I've largely used them for testing purposes, to see how the colors work together in order to see how I might further emphasize the synergies I like with more cards, but they also worked quite well as an introduction to what the colors do in the cube. Green paired with Red will play differently than Green paired with White, which is easier to see with decks illustrating the difference.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
This just isn't true. Sure, everyone knows that Guardian of the Guildpact is great, etc. But it's not that everyone who focuses on "power level" has identical cubes. For instance, CubeTutor tells me that 120 cards differ between my cube and Humphrey's cube. That's a lot of stuff to potentially talk about. I'm sure that if you looked at other diffs, there would be lots to talk about. Moreover, part of the cube design process is constantly trying to balance things. I highly doubt any of us are actually completely satisfied with the balance in our cubes; that's something we can talk about. Further, unless I've missed a lot of discusison, last time I checked, there's not a consensus here about what "power level" actually means; that's something we can talk about. Moreover, I don't think we actually know even exactly what archetypes are the most powerful; for instance, there was some discussion recently about whether ramp was even good enough right now to include. Other topics include things like combat tricks (which I push harder than most people here), removal density (which was a big topic a while ago that I don't think ever got fully fleshed out), properly supporting tempo vs. aggro, whether control decks have a really hard time right now, etc. There's lots of stuff to talk about on a pure "power level basis" as well lots to talk about regarding pauper cube in general, and lots to talk about with regards to designing other archetypes / themes. Pauper cube is nowhere near solved.
This is a good idea; we should do that. Unfortunately, it takes a bit of work to organize, but if we all really wanted to do it, we probably could.
I'm really not a fan of exclusionary language like this. He is literally talking about topics that fall under the purview of this forum, and his discussion clearly belongs here. Moreover, given how few people regularly participate on this forum, actively trying to exclude people from discussion has a huge negative effect. The "you don't belong here anymore" attitude is exactly why a lot of people stay away from MTGS in the first place; as a community we should be better than that.
Also, if you don't want to talk about some topic, then just don't respond to that post / thread. Nobody's forcing you to respond, and you're always free to make your own posts / threads. Personally, I read everything pauper related on here (and a lot of peasant related things as well), even if it's not something I'm immediately interested in doing, just because it's usually interesting to think about.
I couldn't agree more with this.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/17954
about your points
120 cards are 1/3 of my cube, so thats a lot to talk about lol, since I put so many hours into my cube that I hope im very close to the most powerful cube available. Also Id call my cube very balanced and im very happy with it. It slightly changes with new cards, though and we dont play it often enough to get "perfect" balance.
Im sure, I already posted my definition of powerlevel somewhere, but let me try again. First of all we have 2 directions of power. Tempo and Value, one will win you the game quickly, one will win long grindy games. Wether or not you prefer tempocards over valuecards is a little personal preference, but Id argue that tempo is the stronger power. Therefore you shouldnt cut too hard on 1- and 2-drops.
Now we have to compare the cards to each other and find out whats is the best manacost to power ratio in a vaccuum and put them into your cube.
Then you can reevaluate the cards in your specific meta, because power changes with synergies/interactions.
About the archetypes, I think we now have a density of powerful commons that "goodstuff" will outperform the more specific archetypes. The best ones are probably GW or RW Tokens (takes a lot of slots), UGw Aura/Hexproof (most hexproof dudes suck w/o Auras and vice versa), UR spells matters (probably the easiest to support, but weak to removal heavy decks)
Ramp is strong as tempoplay, when you dont run ramponly cards, but more flexible ones like manaelves and ETB creatures and dont push the manacurve too high.
Combat tricks are some kind of burn/removal so you have to compare them to it. Only a few are better.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
The mirage fetches in new border are very pretty though, with their reprints in the duel decks.
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
Speaking of red 3 drops, has anyone else tried Boggart Brute? I think its one of reds best 3 drops, and would run it above anything listed above except for Splatter Thug. Its extremely hard to block, especially with all the removal red has.
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/pauper-peasant-discussion/193961-the-evaluate-everything-project-als-part?comment=283
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
topan freeblade
sandsteppe outcast
ghirapur gearcrafter
goblin heelcutter
cathodion from modern masters if you missed that
There's a bunch of other really good cards but imo these are the standouts
Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
check out my EDH and Pauper EDH decks here
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
Modern, actually. Grixis, in Delver, Control, or Twin flavors.
http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/7023
Edit: Epic Confrontation is the only fight spell I can think of that gets around the combat issue, and I noticed you didn't list that one. It is easily the best fight spell.