Hey, I just started creating my first Pauper Cube so I may ask for some help in the next few weeks. After Fate Reforged is completely spoiled and available on cubetutor I'll post a list and ask for suggestions if that is OK.
Neither am I but I'm trying to run a certain number of Gold cards from each guild and so I'm forced into using bad cards for the sake of having equal color distribution.
If you saw what I have in my gold section so far you'd laugh, there are a lot of TERRIBLE cards. I'm hoping the gold cards in the next two sets can replace some of the *****tier ones.
I have it set so there are a certain amount of true Simic cards that can only be cast with UG and then I have simic cards that can be cast with hybrid and simic cards that are one color but have another ability in a different one.
I am running both Snakeform and Frilled Oculus for those categories but in the purely UG category I run Coiling Oracle and Temporal Spring
Coiling Oracle is a bad card, you shouldnt run it. Temporal Soring is a trap, too. I always wanted to make the card work, but everytime I played it, I noticed it sucks at sorcery speed.
Coiling Oracle is a bad card, you shouldnt run it. Temporal Soring is a trap, too. I always wanted to make the card work, but everytime I played it, I noticed it sucks at sorcery speed.
I always thought Coiling Oracle was decent, at worst it is a elvish visionary at best you ramp. Perhaps you are right, maybe it is a bad card BUT is something like Beetleform Mage actually better? I'm fairly certain you would think it is but I am not so sure.
Is Temporal Spring really a trap? It seems solid to me. Time Ebb is pretty meh but I think the versatility of Temporal Spring is what makes it playable, there are definitely times when bouncing a land to the top can be devastating.
I'd love to hear the opinions of others because I am quite new to cubing and there is a good likelihood I am evaluating these cards wrong.
If I want ramp, I run ramp like Sakura Tribe Elder which is guaranteed.
[card]elvish visionary[/card} is also a bad card, what are you going to do with a 1/1 for cc2 exept wasting tempo? Both are constructed cards.
The mage is a 4/4 flying which ends games quickly.
My question is, have any of you noticed this issue as well? Do you have any solutions? I should add that I've reduced the total number of removal spells in W and B already some time ago and I thought I found a good blance. The problem here is definitely Red, whose spell section is basically 95% removal plus Madcap Skills and Reckless Charge. However, I don't see a way of reducing the amount of burn in red without ending up either making Red too weak overall, or banning cards that aren't inherently op. I thought that token makers (Sprout Swarm, Enlistment) and Hexproof/Shroud creatures would be able to keep this playstyle in check, though they don't really do anything against Shadow/Fear/Intimidate and 10 points of burn in hand. Any thoughts on this?
I haven't noticed R/B decks getting out of hand. If anything, it's the W/B aggro deck that's usually the best deck in my cube.
Anyway, I'm a fan of adding combat tricks in green / white along with white's suite of protection spells. And if you want to keep lots of shadow/fear/intimidate creatures around, you don't want to cut removal because that's the best way of dealing with those creatures.
Thanks for the help everybody! I didn't value Beetleform Mage nearly as high as you guys. I was seeing it as a 3 mana 2/2 with occasional upside but now I see why you guys like it.
+a lot of mentioned hexproof, shroud, shieldbearer, protection and high toughness guys + counter and discard Since my meta is pretty tempo-tuned the x-spells are ok, but pretty slow.
Slightly raise the average CC of both creatures and spells in Red and possibly black. Add more double B cards in black. Basically this puts a premium on low cost aggro cards and forces then to run slower by about a turn which gives A LOT more time for midrange decks and lategame decks to set up.
If you are looking for more specifics add more control orientated creatures and token producing in for spells ex, Wall of Heat, Dragon Fodder, Dynacharge. They are weaker architypes than BR aggro for sure but help dilute the concentration of great aggro beaters and cheap burn.
In black cut most Tier 2 removal Last Gasp and replace it with Tier 3 removal Hideous End. This keeps the crazy Doom Blades that you come to expect and puts a premium on them. Then it removes cheap removal from being omnipresent in any deck that wants it. This raises the value of cheap control creatures and 3-5cc aggro-midrange creatures. Also it keeps Blacks identity of killing stuff and people will keep picking these removal spells and playing them.
The only game I lost was when I couldn't find a black source for 7 turns on the draw and my opponent had a 5/5 Aradillo Cloak'd creature on turn 5 (with me having three black removal spells in hand, obviously). I mulliganed a lot, but won every single game when I did. I admit that the two pieces of equipment were also a big factor of this deck's success, but the 11 removal spells were what pushed it over the top.
That deck just seems really bomby. Vulshok/bonesplitter are arguably the best cards in the format(on merit of being colorless) and the rest of the deck is sweet. If you really feel it's a problem, I'd have to agree and say tweaking your removal is a good place to start.
It depends with what you are going to fill in the gap left by tier 2 removal spells. You can replace it with more creatures, but for me that goes against blacks 55/45 creature split that I am aiming for. There are also only so many cubeable non-removal spells in black before you end up with a backlog of cards consistently not drafted or under-performing.
I am all for not over saturating the environment. But I find that slightly underpowered removal makes for more interesting draft environments. You want to kill creatures in black, but you shouldn't just be handed all the answers on a silver plater. You should have to jump through some hoops. I big part of that is toning down the removal in other colours. Green should ideally only have Savage Punchs and anti-flying cards. Red mostly 1 to 3 damage cards unless you are paying 4+ mana and not in absurd quantities like most cubes are at the moment.
Maybe it aggros problem is there are too many cheap equipments running around. It's easier to just blame the removal as a culprit.
They all look great for their own limited but for cube, the general consensus is the simic one is interesting but the other lack the power to break into our guild sections. I kind of like the Boros one as a first look too.
Apologies for that, I'll make sure to use that thread next time. Yeah I realize that most of them won't be playable but it can be hard to evaluate new cards. I'm fairly dead set on adding the UG card for sure but the other ones are dubious at best.
Yeah I have mine on cubetutor. It is my first cube and I would enjoy suggestions because I scoured countless commons to find cards but it's hard for me to evaluate cards for something like cube where I don't have much experience. I've been making fairly consistent changes and I know I still need to make a lot more.
Another thing to note is that I am kinda OCD about having each color represented equally. For example if I have 2 hybrid Orzhov cards then each guild needs to have 2 hybrid cards. Each guild also has a one card that can be casted with one color but has the potential of uses with another color. Examples: Travel Preparations and Stonefare Crocodile. I like having these deckbuilding restrictions but at the same time it means I have to play some rather suboptimal cards.
Another thing to note is that there a few rares in here but there are meant to be cards from FRF that aren't up on cubetutor yet.
Yeah I have mine on cubetutor. It is my first cube and I would enjoy suggestions because I scoured countless commons to find cards but it's hard for me to evaluate cards for something like cube where I don't have much experience.
Have you taken a look in here? This should be helpful.
Another thing to note is that I am kinda OCD about having each color represented equally. For example if I have 2 hybrid Orzhov cards then each guild needs to have 2 hybrid cards. Each guild also has a one card that can be casted with one color but has the potential of uses with another color. Examples: Travel Preparations and Stonefare Crocodile. I like having these deckbuilding restrictions but at the same time it means I have to play some rather suboptimal cards.
I know this problem and I can understand it with hybrid cards, but to be realistic, I can't imagine Travel Preparations and Jilt ever to be played in Green or Blue without beeing able to use their full potential. These cards can definitly be seen as multicolor cards.
After a first look at your list 3 things come to my mind.
1) You have a huge multicolor section. The average amount of Gold cards for a 360 card cube is 3 per color. From 400-450 it's about 4 per color.
2) You have only about 40% creatures. That's way too few. I can only imagine decks to be terribly unconsistent. I would aim for at least 50%, even if a lot of creatures are way weaker than many noncreature spells.
3) If you want this community to help you with your list it would be extremly helpful if you create a watch list for cards you are unhappy with or unsure about. You can simply color these cards in your list. (Create Tags in "Edit List" and then color them under "My Accout" -> "My Cubes")
Thank you, this is all very helpful. I'll address some of your concerns soon.
I am wondering about your first concern though. I really want my cube to be capable of drafting 3 color, or even in some strange situations, 4 color decks because I feel like drafting one or two colors every draft would be rather boring. My way of trying to get this to be more likely to happen was to include a lot of multicolor cards. What are your thoughts on this? Am I wasting my time as 3 color decks still won't be viable with the added multicolor cards or should I cut multicolor cards because 3 color decks can be viable without a high emphasis on multicolor?
I am wondering about your first concern though. I really want my cube to be capable of drafting 3 color, or even in some strange situations, 4 color decks because I feel like drafting one or two colors every draft would be rather boring. My way of trying to get this to be more likely to happen was to include a lot of multicolor cards. What are your thoughts on this? Am I wasting my time as 3 color decks still won't be viable with the added multicolor cards or should I cut multicolor cards because 3 color decks can be viable without a high emphasis on multicolor?
Well you can obviously force your drafters to play 3-colored decks by playing a lot of multicolor cards. They become viable through a lot of fixing. If you really want to play a gold-heavy cube I would add the Guildgate-Cycle aswell.
I don't really want to force my drafters into more colors but at least make the option viable in the right circumstances. I am unsure if my current list has that capability but that is the goal.
I run 6 card per two-color guild and 10 tri-color's in a 490 cube [included gold, hybrid and adc (ability of a different color)].
I run 2 dual lands per guild, 8 fetch/rainbow lands, and 5 ó 6 fixing artifacts, and that has been enough so far.
Check out Al' thread on ranking cards, if really useful.
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My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
Anyone tried out Cloudskate? Having a 2CMC 2/2 flier for 3 turns seems pretty good, especially since most creatures don't end up lasting much longer than that anyway.
Clouldstate gives the opponent the option of waiting it out and face-tanking the 6 damage so they trade 1 for 0. It also isn't a good card past turn 2-3. I would only see myself running it in an aggro deck. Even in that scenario you are better off running Welkin Tern and its functionally reprint.
On that note I have been putting in more Welkin Tern like cards into blue. I am trying to give blue a stronger identity for being the evasion colour, whilst culling off some evasion dudes in black and white. Even though there isn't much of an identity crisis in pauper blue, it will give people a reason for drafting blue as a 2nd colour if they are looking for evasion beaters over black or white.
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Currently I really like Ethereal Ambush, what should I cut for it, Shambleshark or Winged Coatl?
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Neither am I but I'm trying to run a certain number of Gold cards from each guild and so I'm forced into using bad cards for the sake of having equal color distribution.
If you saw what I have in my gold section so far you'd laugh, there are a lot of TERRIBLE cards. I'm hoping the gold cards in the next two sets can replace some of the *****tier ones.
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
Frilled Oculus,
Beetleform Mage,
Snakeform
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I have it set so there are a certain amount of true Simic cards that can only be cast with UG and then I have simic cards that can be cast with hybrid and simic cards that are one color but have another ability in a different one.
I am running both Snakeform and Frilled Oculus for those categories but in the purely UG category I run Coiling Oracle and Temporal Spring
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I always thought Coiling Oracle was decent, at worst it is a elvish visionary at best you ramp. Perhaps you are right, maybe it is a bad card BUT is something like Beetleform Mage actually better? I'm fairly certain you would think it is but I am not so sure.
Is Temporal Spring really a trap? It seems solid to me. Time Ebb is pretty meh but I think the versatility of Temporal Spring is what makes it playable, there are definitely times when bouncing a land to the top can be devastating.
I'd love to hear the opinions of others because I am quite new to cubing and there is a good likelihood I am evaluating these cards wrong.
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
Snakeform is great.
I think Beetleform Mage is outclassed by Darkthicket Wolf.
[card]elvish visionary[/card} is also a bad card, what are you going to do with a 1/1 for cc2 exept wasting tempo? Both are constructed cards.
The mage is a 4/4 flying which ends games quickly.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I haven't noticed R/B decks getting out of hand. If anything, it's the W/B aggro deck that's usually the best deck in my cube.
Anyway, I'm a fan of adding combat tricks in green / white along with white's suite of protection spells. And if you want to keep lots of shadow/fear/intimidate creatures around, you don't want to cut removal because that's the best way of dealing with those creatures.
So I am assuming Assault Zeppelid is much better than Shambleshark so my strictly UG cards are now as follows:
Assault Zeppelid
Beetleform Mage
Ethereal Ambush
Temporal Spring
I run two hybrid gold cards for each color combination and I am playing Shielding Plax and the obviously powerful Snakeform
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Checking my T1 cube, cards I run to keep burn in check:
+a lot of mentioned hexproof, shroud, shieldbearer, protection and high toughness guys + counter and discard Since my meta is pretty tempo-tuned the x-spells are ok, but pretty slow.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
If you are looking for more specifics add more control orientated creatures and token producing in for spells ex, Wall of Heat, Dragon Fodder, Dynacharge. They are weaker architypes than BR aggro for sure but help dilute the concentration of great aggro beaters and cheap burn.
In black cut most Tier 2 removal Last Gasp and replace it with Tier 3 removal Hideous End. This keeps the crazy Doom Blades that you come to expect and puts a premium on them. Then it removes cheap removal from being omnipresent in any deck that wants it. This raises the value of cheap control creatures and 3-5cc aggro-midrange creatures. Also it keeps Blacks identity of killing stuff and people will keep picking these removal spells and playing them.
You can do the same for White.
That deck just seems really bomby. Vulshok/bonesplitter are arguably the best cards in the format(on merit of being colorless) and the rest of the deck is sweet. If you really feel it's a problem, I'd have to agree and say tweaking your removal is a good place to start.
Constructed (Casual) | Pinksleeves |
Constructed (Pauper) | Izzet Fiend | Mono Black | Burn |
Constructed (Standard) | Under Construction |
Constructed (Modern) | Fate Seal |
Constructed (Legacy) | Dream Halls |
Constructed (Vintage) | Not Yet |
Constructed (Commander) | Sliver Overlord | Uril, the Miststalker | Braids, Cabal Minion |
Limited | Alara Block | Time Spiral Block | Innistrad Block | Rise of the Eldrazi |
I am all for not over saturating the environment. But I find that slightly underpowered removal makes for more interesting draft environments. You want to kill creatures in black, but you shouldn't just be handed all the answers on a silver plater. You should have to jump through some hoops. I big part of that is toning down the removal in other colours. Green should ideally only have Savage Punchs and anti-flying cards. Red mostly 1 to 3 damage cards unless you are paying 4+ mana and not in absurd quantities like most cubes are at the moment.
Maybe it aggros problem is there are too many cheap equipments running around. It's easier to just blame the removal as a culprit.
http://lrcast.com/exclusive-limited-resources-fate-reforged-preview-cards/
They all seem relatively decent to me.
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
Apologies for that, I'll make sure to use that thread next time. Yeah I realize that most of them won't be playable but it can be hard to evaluate new cards. I'm fairly dead set on adding the UG card for sure but the other ones are dubious at best.
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
Another thing to note is that I am kinda OCD about having each color represented equally. For example if I have 2 hybrid Orzhov cards then each guild needs to have 2 hybrid cards. Each guild also has a one card that can be casted with one color but has the potential of uses with another color. Examples: Travel Preparations and Stonefare Crocodile. I like having these deckbuilding restrictions but at the same time it means I have to play some rather suboptimal cards.
Another thing to note is that there a few rares in here but there are meant to be cards from FRF that aren't up on cubetutor yet.
Sagu Mauler > Ethereal Ambush
Tombstalker > Gurmag Angler
Goblin guide > Goblin Heelcutter
I also run Cogwork Librarian and Lurking Automaton because they are fun but I'm not sure how you guys feel about them.
Here is my list: Cube
I might run a few of the newest commons despite them being weak simply because they could replace other weak gold cards but I'm not sure yet.
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
Thank you, this is all very helpful. I'll address some of your concerns soon.
I am wondering about your first concern though. I really want my cube to be capable of drafting 3 color, or even in some strange situations, 4 color decks because I feel like drafting one or two colors every draft would be rather boring. My way of trying to get this to be more likely to happen was to include a lot of multicolor cards. What are your thoughts on this? Am I wasting my time as 3 color decks still won't be viable with the added multicolor cards or should I cut multicolor cards because 3 color decks can be viable without a high emphasis on multicolor?
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
I don't really want to force my drafters into more colors but at least make the option viable in the right circumstances. I am unsure if my current list has that capability but that is the goal.
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
I run 2 dual lands per guild, 8 fetch/rainbow lands, and 5 ó 6 fixing artifacts, and that has been enough so far.
Check out Al' thread on ranking cards, if really useful.
My 490 Pauper Cube
Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
On that note I have been putting in more Welkin Tern like cards into blue. I am trying to give blue a stronger identity for being the evasion colour, whilst culling off some evasion dudes in black and white. Even though there isn't much of an identity crisis in pauper blue, it will give people a reason for drafting blue as a 2nd colour if they are looking for evasion beaters over black or white.