Actually yeah Cyclops looks quite good. I should probably add it at some point. Jilt and Frostburn Weird aren't going anywhere though and I currently support a Ghostly Flicker constructed-Pauper-style combo-control deck that Izzet Chronoarch is ocassionally a player in.
Quicksilver Dagger is really bad, if you need space at Izzet. Thought Courier is a must-play.
If you want to support UW Skies or other agressive orientated decks, Welkin Tern and his new reprint Vaporkin are really strong, like every 2 power evasive beater for cc2.
Quicksilver Dagger is not bad at all, in fact it's often a first/second pick during my drafts. It's straight card advantage in a Control OR Tempo shell. It single highhandedly can fuel decks better than Looters.
Thanks for the heads up about my CMC slots, I'll fix those now
Both ways have a bias to them I guess and since I'm just collating raw lists its not something I'm even aware of on a cube-by-cube basis.
Usually these cube rankings and databases are used to determine what to ad based on some semblance of scientific thought, simply excluding a card because some one has a beef with wizards printing policy is hardly a good representation of whether it should be in a cube or not.
Does anyone put multicolor cards that cost XAB in their respective guild/shard/wedge section and then hybrids and off color kicker costs into a separate section that is more A or B?
I am thinking about doing this because it opens up a couple slots, but mainly, these cards are castable in A or B instead of requiring a multicolor deck (where you maybe are just losing some value by not being able to kick it or do an off color activation). Thoughts?
Play to win. If you don't, you're disrespecting everyone you're playing with by wasting their time. The Douchbag check is at the level of deck construction.
Does anyone put multicolor cards that cost XAB in their respective guild/shard/wedge section and then hybrids and off color kicker costs into a separate section that is more A or B?
I am thinking about doing this because it opens up a couple slots, but mainly, these cards are castable in A or B instead of requiring a multicolor deck (where you maybe are just losing some value by not being able to kick it or do an off color activation). Thoughts?
I think the best way to do hybrid cards is to count them as .5 of a card for each color in it's hybrid cost. So something like Snakeform, would be .5 of your blue section and .5 of a card in your green section. The one problem with this strategy is that it requires you to have obviously an evenly made group of cards to make whole numbers and there aren't a ton of hybrid options for pauper. However, I have made a number of acceptable combinations of hybrids ranging from 4-10 cards. I think the lower the number the better tho because as i said, the options at pauper aren't great. Otherwise, I would either place them in the guild section or under the mono color if it's only playable as that one color (IE Pit Fight)
Does anyone put multicolor cards that cost XAB in their respective guild/shard/wedge section and then hybrids and off color kicker costs into a separate section that is more A or B?
I am thinking about doing this because it opens up a couple slots, but mainly, these cards are castable in A or B instead of requiring a multicolor deck (where you maybe are just losing some value by not being able to kick it or do an off color activation). Thoughts?
I think the only way to sort cards that makes sense is on an individual basis. Al classifying pit fight as mono green is a great example.
For cards with off color costs, I try to evaluate whether the card will get played in decks that on't produce the off color (the answer is almost always no.) For example, no deck will ever want to include 1U unsummon, so the only way to sort jilt that makes sense is as if it costs 2UR. The only exception I can think of right now is strangling soot, as it's still a solid removal spell even if you can't flash it back. So I put strangling soot in with my mono black cards, it just gets a lot better if you play red too.
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I have a rare 360 cube and while it is easily my favorite way to play, I have two problems. It's getting kind of stale for me and I don't have a lot of drafters most of the time. Every time we play, we see the same decks; mid-range with one drops, 12 creature control, a mess that can only be described as reanimator/tinker/wildfire. My cube is not finished and I don't want to go to 450 until I have a solid 360.
How does a pauper cube play in this situation? Are the decks very different when there are 4 drafters as opposed to 8? How do the games play out compared to a rare cube?
I probably have 80% of a great pauper cube lying around my house, but is it a good fit?
Everyone runs it, but mogg fanatic is awful. It's a scorching spear plus one chump block. If you're really lucky, you'll drop it turn 1 and it'll get in for maybe 2 damage, and if you're desperate it will hold equipment. Other than that, it's a horrible version of geistflame/lava dart/flame jab etc. Mogg fanatic just has a tiny effect that's not worth 1 card.
It performs a role as a cheap creature that you can cast T1 or along with another spell later in the game. Very often I will use the Fanatic to kill a cheap creature on my opponent's side, at which point it's done a fair job. Not all cards in the cube need to have a major effect, and it would be boring if I just cut the Fanatic for another burn spell. The Fanatic plays in a way that is unique without costing too much in terms of power level, and that's really enough for me to justify it.
Everyone runs it, but mogg fanatic is awful. It's a scorching spear plus one chump block. If you're really lucky, you'll drop it turn 1 and it'll get in for maybe 2 damage, and if you're desperate it will hold equipment. Other than that, it's a horrible version of geistflame/lava dart/flame jab etc. Mogg fanatic just has a tiny effect that's not worth 1 card.
I think they're awful as well although we have a 270 Cube and don't run them so I'm basing my opinion on the fact that Mogg Fanatic seems awful in every format to me.
So what fits into the "robot tribe" for pauper tribal? Does Phyrexian Walker fit? It's a cool card and there's a fairly high number of 1, 2 power dudes. He picks up bonsplitter and moldervine cloak like a champ too.
Don't forget Fume Spitter as a worse Dead Weight.
I agree. A while ago I already criticised these cards. My theory, why they are still played is, that people are overrating them, because they have been good a few years ago, when damage still went on the stack and the Fanatic/Spitter were able to trade X/2 creatures on their own.
Fume spitter came out long after we lost 'damage on the stack' I thought.
And I agree with Runner, and that is why I run Fanatic; Red's non-secondary color identity.
My first version of cube had like 6 X-Spells, a lot of burn, and red was only ever taken as removal b/c it had so few creatures.
Fanatic, while not amazing, is still a creature which can block/attack. This can be 2 points, it can only be the 1 it sac's for.
It is also a Goblin for Sparksmith.
I think the 1cc's have a place because Aggro needs early bodies, otherwise you are ignoring a whole class of drops.
I accept cutting it for the previously talked about 180 Cubes but after that, why not?
I don't think its even close to fair to say that Mogg Fanatic is an awful card. If you don't like it, I guess that's up to you but this card still sees play in Powered Cubes.
The idea of Mogg Fanatic is that when played on turn 1 he gets in for damage because your opponent can't profitably block without losing their own creature. I think this is especially true of pauper cube because very few colors have access to 2 drops with 2 toughness let alone 1 drops that can do anything against Mogg Fanatic. For example, Al's inclusion of typhoid rats which you would never want to waste blocking a Mogg Fanatic if you played it on turn 1. Your same black section only has 3 two drops that can profitably block Mogg Fanatic. When you play him on turn 1 he beats in the first two turns netting you 2 damage. When your opponent finally plays a dude on turn 3 that can profitably block it, you get to swing in with your whole team. If he blocks the fanatic with his biggest creature, it means all of your bigger creatures get to get in for damage and you get to sac your Mogg Fanatic to either kill one of their lower drop creatures or deal 1 damage to the face. If you went to the face, Mogg Fanatic got you 3 damage and a free attack with your larger creature. If you killed a creature, your Mogg Fanatic got in 2 damage to your opponent, got a free attack for your biggest creature and killed a low drop/utility creature all for the low cost of R.
Obviously this scenario is much different when he doesn't get played on turn 1 but that can be said of most 1 drop creatures in pauper cube. If anything, it's better than most 1 drops in pauper cube when drawn late because you are guaranteed the 1 damage.
Quirion Ranger moves up if you play all the other elves. Arbor Elf and Quirion Elves also encourage more Enchant Lands. Those synergize well with an aura subtheme.
(@sensible folk) I'm not saying anyone should cut fanatic for a burn spell, but cut it for SOMETHING that's worth at least 1 card. Don't you think every card in a cube should be worth at least 1 card?
The comparison I suggested, when this theme came up the last time, was Seal of Fire
I've been advocating this for years.
I never understood how the little things mogg fanatic did added up to more than being able to kill a much, much larger pool of guys.
And I still don't understand how some people (who think mogg fanatic is actually good instead of interesting) will shun frostling, as was stated earlier.
I've been advocating this for years.
I never understood how the little things mogg fanatic did added up to more than being able to kill a much, much larger pool of guys.
And I still don't understand how some people (who think mogg fanatic is actually good instead of interesting) will shun frostling, as was stated earlier.
What do people shun Frostling for? I honestly do not know, and would be curious to hear why people would.
Fanatic hits players and is a Goblin
Frostling only hits creatures and is a Spirit
If you need a 2nd Fanatic you also have Goblin Firestarter a distant 3rd on that list. BUt it boils down to, do you really need another Fanatic, and it is disliked for being very limited in scope. You can also dislike Duergar Assailant for another odd man out.
And saying anyone "shuns" Frostling is a gross exaggeration.
This is not true. I've had the conversation before with the powered cube people and the reaction was overwhelmingly negative by a few and a lot of backpedaling about mogg fanatic's goodness by some of the rest.
I find the 1 drop mana elves to be overrated as well, but my green section seems to be different from others.
I steered away from aggro, and made the mana ramp that also fixes colors more valuable. Rampant growth, fertile ground etc. That solidified a new archetype, the green-based ramp deck that plays all the best 4+ drops from any colors it wants.
The elves are pretty powerful, but their frailty and tendency to get burned quickly hurt a lot. I got frustrated with how you either have them taking nonland slots in your deck, which hurts your density of business cards, or you have them replace a land and risk getting stuck on ~3 mana when they die.
Maybe when I scale back the removal in my cube a little more I'll try them again. Right now I just have llanowar elves, wild growth and utopia sprawl. The not-dying of the auras ended up outweighing the potential attacking/equipping of the elves.
There is still lots of pinging and stuff that loves to see x/1s on the other side of the table in pauper cube, though.
Everyone runs it, but mogg fanatic is awful. It's a scorching spear plus one chump block. If you're really lucky, you'll drop it turn 1 and it'll get in for maybe 2 damage, and if you're desperate it will hold equipment. Other than that, it's a horrible version of geistflame/lava dart/flame jab etc. Mogg fanatic just has a tiny effect that's not worth 1 card.
Seriously, I've seen you on this board for a while, and I respect that; but what is this? We are all sensible here, don't be rude. People are allowed to have a difference in opinion - just because Al loves Hexproof + Regenerate, he doesn't call every other card combination that doesn't support that archetype "downright unplayable."
I'm playing Arbor Elf, Llanowar/Fyndhorn/Elvish Mystic, and Avacyn's Pilgrim, with Quirion Ranger as a pseudo-manadork as well, and no Utopia Sprawl. I don't think it's too many but it's approaching it and I'm keeping an eye on it.
I had this in the "This or That" thread but it's against the intention of the thread because it's a bit too big of a discussion for there.
I think it's really easy to have too much but it's hard to measure when there IS too much. I'm currently on 18 red burn spells, with a couple more like Martyr of Ashes and Sparksmith in my creature section, PLUS Branching Bolt and Jilt in my multicolored section. 18 pure burn spells plus more in other sections kind of feels like a lot, it's about a third of my red cards. At the same time though, they are quite important for red decks and I worry that removing too many might underpower the red decks.
My red burn suite is:
Thanks for the suggestions bud.
Quicksilver Dagger is not bad at all, in fact it's often a first/second pick during my drafts. It's straight card advantage in a Control OR Tempo shell. It single highhandedly can fuel decks better than Looters.
Thanks for the heads up about my CMC slots, I'll fix those now
Usually these cube rankings and databases are used to determine what to ad based on some semblance of scientific thought, simply excluding a card because some one has a beef with wizards printing policy is hardly a good representation of whether it should be in a cube or not.
I am thinking about doing this because it opens up a couple slots, but mainly, these cards are castable in A or B instead of requiring a multicolor deck (where you maybe are just losing some value by not being able to kick it or do an off color activation). Thoughts?
Omnath: he's on PCP
RW Redirection
My 360 Pauper Cube
I think the best way to do hybrid cards is to count them as .5 of a card for each color in it's hybrid cost. So something like Snakeform, would be .5 of your blue section and .5 of a card in your green section. The one problem with this strategy is that it requires you to have obviously an evenly made group of cards to make whole numbers and there aren't a ton of hybrid options for pauper. However, I have made a number of acceptable combinations of hybrids ranging from 4-10 cards. I think the lower the number the better tho because as i said, the options at pauper aren't great. Otherwise, I would either place them in the guild section or under the mono color if it's only playable as that one color (IE Pit Fight)
I think the only way to sort cards that makes sense is on an individual basis. Al classifying pit fight as mono green is a great example.
For cards with off color costs, I try to evaluate whether the card will get played in decks that on't produce the off color (the answer is almost always no.) For example, no deck will ever want to include 1U unsummon, so the only way to sort jilt that makes sense is as if it costs 2UR. The only exception I can think of right now is strangling soot, as it's still a solid removal spell even if you can't flash it back. So I put strangling soot in with my mono black cards, it just gets a lot better if you play red too.
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How does a pauper cube play in this situation? Are the decks very different when there are 4 drafters as opposed to 8? How do the games play out compared to a rare cube?
I probably have 80% of a great pauper cube lying around my house, but is it a good fit?
Icatian javelineers is just about equally bad.
Discuss?
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My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I think they're awful as well although we have a 270 Cube and don't run them so I'm basing my opinion on the fact that Mogg Fanatic seems awful in every format to me.
Fume spitter came out long after we lost 'damage on the stack' I thought.
And I agree with Runner, and that is why I run Fanatic; Red's non-secondary color identity.
My first version of cube had like 6 X-Spells, a lot of burn, and red was only ever taken as removal b/c it had so few creatures.
Fanatic, while not amazing, is still a creature which can block/attack. This can be 2 points, it can only be the 1 it sac's for.
It is also a Goblin for Sparksmith.
I think the 1cc's have a place because Aggro needs early bodies, otherwise you are ignoring a whole class of drops.
I accept cutting it for the previously talked about 180 Cubes but after that, why not?
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
I don't think its even close to fair to say that Mogg Fanatic is an awful card. If you don't like it, I guess that's up to you but this card still sees play in Powered Cubes.
The idea of Mogg Fanatic is that when played on turn 1 he gets in for damage because your opponent can't profitably block without losing their own creature. I think this is especially true of pauper cube because very few colors have access to 2 drops with 2 toughness let alone 1 drops that can do anything against Mogg Fanatic. For example, Al's inclusion of typhoid rats which you would never want to waste blocking a Mogg Fanatic if you played it on turn 1. Your same black section only has 3 two drops that can profitably block Mogg Fanatic. When you play him on turn 1 he beats in the first two turns netting you 2 damage. When your opponent finally plays a dude on turn 3 that can profitably block it, you get to swing in with your whole team. If he blocks the fanatic with his biggest creature, it means all of your bigger creatures get to get in for damage and you get to sac your Mogg Fanatic to either kill one of their lower drop creatures or deal 1 damage to the face. If you went to the face, Mogg Fanatic got you 3 damage and a free attack with your larger creature. If you killed a creature, your Mogg Fanatic got in 2 damage to your opponent, got a free attack for your biggest creature and killed a low drop/utility creature all for the low cost of R.
Obviously this scenario is much different when he doesn't get played on turn 1 but that can be said of most 1 drop creatures in pauper cube. If anything, it's better than most 1 drops in pauper cube when drawn late because you are guaranteed the 1 damage.
By our reckoning:
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Quirion Ranger moves up if you play all the other elves. Arbor Elf and Quirion Elves also encourage more Enchant Lands. Those synergize well with an aura subtheme.
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I've been advocating this for years.
I never understood how the little things mogg fanatic did added up to more than being able to kill a much, much larger pool of guys.
And I still don't understand how some people (who think mogg fanatic is actually good instead of interesting) will shun frostling, as was stated earlier.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
What do people shun Frostling for? I honestly do not know, and would be curious to hear why people would.
Frostling only hits creatures and is a Spirit
If you need a 2nd Fanatic you also have Goblin Firestarter a distant 3rd on that list. BUt it boils down to, do you really need another Fanatic, and it is disliked for being very limited in scope. You can also dislike Duergar Assailant for another odd man out.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
This is not true. I've had the conversation before with the powered cube people and the reaction was overwhelmingly negative by a few and a lot of backpedaling about mogg fanatic's goodness by some of the rest.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I steered away from aggro, and made the mana ramp that also fixes colors more valuable. Rampant growth, fertile ground etc. That solidified a new archetype, the green-based ramp deck that plays all the best 4+ drops from any colors it wants.
The elves are pretty powerful, but their frailty and tendency to get burned quickly hurt a lot. I got frustrated with how you either have them taking nonland slots in your deck, which hurts your density of business cards, or you have them replace a land and risk getting stuck on ~3 mana when they die.
Maybe when I scale back the removal in my cube a little more I'll try them again. Right now I just have llanowar elves, wild growth and utopia sprawl. The not-dying of the auras ended up outweighing the potential attacking/equipping of the elves.
There is still lots of pinging and stuff that loves to see x/1s on the other side of the table in pauper cube, though.
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What's to talk about? You already made your decision. They're both "awful", according to you. No room for discussion anymore is there?
Seriously, I've seen you on this board for a while, and I respect that; but what is this? We are all sensible here, don't be rude. People are allowed to have a difference in opinion - just because Al loves Hexproof + Regenerate, he doesn't call every other card combination that doesn't support that archetype "downright unplayable."
I tossed out my opinion, then wanted to see what others thought about it.
Sorry for any rudeness though.
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Level 1 Judge
Thanks for the apology
I think it's really easy to have too much but it's hard to measure when there IS too much. I'm currently on 18 red burn spells, with a couple more like Martyr of Ashes and Sparksmith in my creature section, PLUS Branching Bolt and Jilt in my multicolored section. 18 pure burn spells plus more in other sections kind of feels like a lot, it's about a third of my red cards. At the same time though, they are quite important for red decks and I worry that removing too many might underpower the red decks.
My red burn suite is:
1 Lava Dart
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Strike
1 Incinerate
1 Searing Blaze
1 Searing Spear
1 Brimstone Volley
1 Staggershock
1 Fireblast
1 Rock Slide
1 Chain Lightning
1 Firebolt
1 Flame Slash
1 Arc Lightning
1 Pyrotechnics
1 Fireball
1 Rolling Thunder
I just cut Rift Bolt in my Theros cuts, Searing Blaze is the one I'm looking at next if I make another cut.
I'm curious what suite of burn spells people use, and what alternatives they have when they think there are too many burn spells.
Level 1 Judge
out of 23
23 Fireball
23 Staggershock
22 Arc Lightning
22 Incinerate
22 Lightning Bolt
21 Rolling Thunder
21 Searing Blaze
21 Firebolt
20 Pyrotechnics
20 Brimstone Volley
20 Searing Sprear
19 Flame Slash
18 Volcanic Hammer
18 Fireblast
16 Chain Lightning
15 Lava Dart
15 Rift Bolt
14 Rockslide
12 Magma Burst
Discounting Chain Lightning's low score due to price, I'd say that Volcanic Hammer and below -- cards that are less than 80% - are cuttable.
The only non burn spells that score 12 or higher are
20 Reckless Charge
18 Faithless Looting
12 Aftershock
12 Madcap Skills
12 Teetering Peaks
It also seems certain Lightning Strike will appear high on the list