Has Arrest fallen back in the power levels? Seems like it would still be a rock star in pauper but few lists at 360 seem to be using it.
It's probably the 5th or 6th best pacifism variant, behind Pacifism, Temporal Isolation, Faith's Fetters, and Bonds of Faith. I'd normally also pick Recumbent Bliss over Arrest since games going long is more common than particularly troublesome creatures with activated abilities. Arrest isn't a bad card by any means, it's just that there are lot of arguably better options especially for 360 lists.
I think there are people who play Merfolk Looter, but no Thought Courier. If you don't want functional reprints, that's fine but otherwise it is just a huge mistake. The 3 looters are like Dark Confidant in Modern/Legacy. You immediately kill them turn two or you lose the game due to the immense card selection/VCA they generate.
The same's true for mana elves and X burn spells in my opinion, except to a greater degree because mana elves and fireballs are better than looters, in my opinion. I've come to the conclusion that people think running a whole bunch of the same effect is boring and clearly it's not about power level. If anyone legitimitely thinks that Boreal Druid or Disintegrate aren't 360 power level, I'd love to know.
Troubled Healer is a card I've been running in order to try it out after so many people here considered it very good. It keeps disappointing me, tbh. It has almost never been played main deck, even though it was mostly in a W player's pool. It is a fine lategame card, when you have excessive lands and your opponent is trying to throw XR damage spells at you, but the card is just utterly terrible on curve and the turns after. I honestly think that Icatian Crier does way more for you if you want a white 3 drop that is bad on curve, but awesome late game.
I don't think you're playing this card correctly. It's by far at its best in creature based matchups where it can bust up board stalls and make all of their blocks terrible. If you're not playing this guy onto a board with at least 3 more of your creatures, you're probably not doing it properly. Same goes for sacrificing lands to prevent damage to you. It's not really a late game card, but you're obviously right that it's not strong on curve. It's more a midgame card that you play when you're ahead to stay ahead, get a bunch of damage in and win the next turn ideally.
Syphon Flesh isn't really as appealing as I initially thought. Retrace spells only seem good if they actually affect the game in a way that it will be relevant throughout the rest of the match. Syphon only provides one-shot effects, while Cenn's Enlistment or even Oona's grace generate 'something', that will give you an advantage in all turns after, namely board position and CA, respectively.
Yeah, it's not a strong card and I don't really know why people thought it would be to be honest.
Guys my first thought was: Build a junk cube. Make the cards mediocre. Make wind drake a wind mill. See how many times you can see people win with vizzerdrix.
Then I thought, no, there are just too many bad cards. Plus you don't really wana create an environment that feels like battle of the 1/4s. Why not just make a pauper or PEZ cube if you want the power level to feel like something more like a regular draft. That seemed like a great idea but then I got it in my head that all the cards should be whiteboarder and it just sort of snowballed from there.
What I wanted to ask you Pauper-People(TM) is if you can explain to me the real difference in feel between pauper cube and PEZ cube and why you made the decision to make pauper.
I have recently turned on a bunch of gits to cubing, but I've never been a cube owner, just always had a lot of friends with them, but now it's looking like I'm going to have to kick my cube creation into gear and I'm awfully curious about your format.
Guys my first thought was: Build a junk cube. Make the cards mediocre. Make wind drake a wind mill. See how many times you can see people win with vizzerdrix.
Then I thought, no, there are just too many bad cards. Plus you don't really wana create an environment that feels like battle of the 1/4s. Why not just make a pauper or PEZ cube if you want the power level to feel like something more like a regular draft. That seemed like a great idea but then I got it in my head that all the cards should be whiteboarder and it just sort of snowballed from there.
What I wanted to ask you Pauper-People(TM) is if you can explain to me the real difference in feel between pauper cube and PEZ cube and why you made the decision to make pauper.
I have recently turned on a bunch of gits to cubing, but I've never been a cube owner, just always had a lot of friends with them, but now it's looking like I'm going to have to kick my cube creation into gear and I'm awfully curious about your format.
Thanks,
Your friend Lucas.
Pauper draft is like a high-power limited format from 5-10 years ago, before limited formats were so bomb-heavy (think, pre-Lorwyn). Everything is incremental gains, for the most part. I like that.
I'll be honest, the reason I first got into Pauper cubing was because it was the cheapest option available, and ever since I've basically fallen in love with the format.
The range of power levels in Pauper is much more compressed. There are still swingy moments, but our swingy moments are Armadillo Cloak on a flier or Dawnglare Invoker with 11 mana. Far more manageable, and less bomb-driven. But at the same time, the decks you can make are less interesting, unless you decide to incorporate themes like Auras or Blink.
Pauper draft is like a high-power limited format from 5-10 years ago, before limited formats were so bomb-heavy (think, pre-Lorwyn). Everything is incremental gains, for the most part. I like that.
Modern formats really aren't bomb heavy if you're a good player playing a good player. Take M14 for instance - all of the bombs that are really devastating are mythic (granted there are 7+ insane mythics) or cost 7 or more (which makes them a whole lot less powerful).
Pauper's probably not better than peasant, but I cube it because I started to, and never really could be bothered changing to peasant. It's super easy to get all the cards, though.
What I wanted to ask you Pauper-People(TM) is if you can explain to me the real difference in feel between pauper cube and PEZ cube and why you made the decision to make pauper.
Pauper cube reminds me most of what I like in drafts - there are a lot of "stock" strategies with a few fringe decks that can be very powerful if they come together (hexproof/auras and ramp come to mind). Games aren't solely about grinding out advantages, but there also aren't many huge bombs. Games are decided more through overall drafting and play skills than picking up specific bombs.
Peasant cubes can take a couple of different directions - they can have the same basic strategies and archetypes as a pauper cube except with more powerful cards, or they can play out more like a traditional cube by supporting a number of synergistic archetypes. Neither of those are that appealing to me. The first approach tends to make the limited environment more bomb-oriented and swingy, and for the second, if I wanted something that played like a traditional cube, I would just put together an unpowered cube list to get the full experience.
Also, the monetary aspects of making and maintaining a pauper cube are nice. I spent more on sleeves and specific basic lands than I did to get the actual cards for my cube. Peasant cubes aren't too expensive to update with each new set, but the initial cost to put something together can be pretty high (a few hundred dollars USD).
I'd actually argue that pauper is more bomb-driven than peasant, even though we have only a few. In stronger cubes, strong cards can easily be trumped by synnergy or stronger cards, in pauper Sprout Swarm runs off with many, many games.
You have a point, Rubin. I can name pretty much one card from every colour that is incredibly difficult to deal with (Sprout Swarm, Capsize, Pestilence, Rolling Thunder, Guardian of the Guildpact). I think in general, though, Pauper bombs are less insane relative to the rest of the field. But again, I don't have any experience with the higher rarity cubes.
When I was thinking about Pauper being less bomb-driven, I was thinking about the powerful creature-based cards or interactions, like the aforementioned cloak or Dawnglare, which are answerable with removal.
I think bombs, swingy plays, and over game breaking cards are all a good aspect of limited.
If anything, it gives credence to hate drafting. If you are in the 3rd round, and you are in the middle of making a red/black deck and 1st pick is guardian of guild pact, I'm not letting that go, I'll keep it safe in my possession. Even if I did have terminate.
lol
Same goes if I saw, capsize and I was running green/white or something.
My experiences were roughly the same as Catullo's. They both made the initial cut and they were okay if suspended "on curve", but much later than that and I thought they were pretty bad. If I were going to run one, I'd be closer to giving the Baloth a second consideration because a 5/5 is still huge when drawn on turn 14, and I see the card is getting some traction for others.
And Dustwasp just generally wasn't what I wanted to be doing in my green decks. I'm either dropping bears and equipments or staring to ramp/fix to play whatever color bomb I drafted. A 3/3 flyer is fine, but suspended and in green it feels a like "I'm a little this, a little that, and I'm no good at either."
I've had good experiences with the baloth, not so much with the dustwasp. It's like Llanowar Elves in being not strong on any other turn than turn 1 - but unlike the elves it's still a gamebreaking card once you do have the mana to get it out and a tax of 1 on Hollowhenge Beast really isn't a big deal.
Man thanks for the help guys, are there any strategies that you feel are more or less accomplishable between the two limited cube formats?
I'm thinking what I will do is play with 48 rates to insert as the 15th card in each pack. I was thinking it would be fun for a good deal of them to be neat build around me cards. I was also considering having the exception to my pauper // PEZ thing being a flashy mana base. I guess what that consisted of would depend on what archetypes I was excited to support. Almost certainly have a lot of fetch lands and painful fixing though. I really like the influence of those cards on aggro.
I was thinking of cards like winds of rath and upheaval or like mildly tribal exciting creatures or stormy spells matter cards!
I guess this must seem out there and ambitious but I'd appreciate all your veteran wisdom.
There's enough cards out there for a pauper storm deck to be possible with tons of cantrips, suspend, rituals and whatever.
Pauper storm is probably a bit more fair than normal cube storm, which would probably just end the game. In pauper the best you can do is spawn a million goblins or bounce a bunch of their permanents.
15th card gimmicks can be fun. When I had an artifact cube the 15th card was a piece of urzatron.
What do people think of Goblin Matron? A 1/1 is obviously unimpressive but what about when it can search up removal spells, Warren Pilferers and Sparksmith for double damage?
What goblins are actually worth another card to be tutored up outside of a tribal cube? I already don't play many goblins, and none of those really seem worth another card to get, especially in cubes with more than 360 cards where you can't even guarantee that the most playable goblins will even be in the pool. Even if it would mainly be used to get removal, similar to Totem-Guide Hartebeest, the body is so small that I'd probably just want to play another removal spell in its place, unlike the Totem-Guide.
Doesn't really seem worth it. I don't think there's any Goblin in the cube that is so good as to warrant this as a tutor for it over just another burn spell or whatever.
Doesn't really seem worth it. I don't think there's any Goblin in the cube that is so good as to warrant this as a tutor for it over just another burn spell or whatever.
I'm going to test it out, as it's a deceptively powerful card (play legacy goblins if you don't believe me, or even pauper goblins). That kind of an argument isn't really fair to the card because tutors are mainly strong because of their flexibility, not their strength when they find the most powerful card in your deck in a vacuum. It's notable that you can use it to tutor up removal on a body (eg skirk marauder) so that it's not just removal on an inconsequential body.
It may just be worse than burn, but hell, it's a lot less boring.
I still want to include more counters, but I don't have that many things I can cut. Another question I'm asking myself is: Remove Soul (and similar removal) vs. Syncopate (and similar removal).
The biggest threat in the cube still are creatures, while it's often very helpful to be able to counter removal. Condescend has always done very well for me. Is it good enough to include other, similar counters?
I think a possible cut for more counters could be Into the Roil. I'm nearly always bouncing creatures with it, so it's mainy just the strictly worse Repulse.
Remove Soul is stronger than Syncopate. There are just more creatures that must be stopped (with the exception of a couple of bombs) for a control deck. And it is able to stop that annoying early beat down. Decks often have excess mana late game and control decks can't always afford to hold up a bajillion mana each turn to potentially stop that one game breaking card.
Into the Roil has admittedly impressed me a lot less recently for this reason. It effectively costs more mana for the same effect. It's still a good card, but if I decide that I only need one Repulse effect, I would cut it.
Also has anyone got any suggestions of more mana sinks for the late game, because often 2 decks will trade cards until they both have a big pile of land with nothing to do and that 1/1 beater going all the way. (There is always a random 1/1 beater.) And as Rubin said, this is another reason why X Burn spells are good.
Another card, that I'm actually thinking about is Dead Ringers. Killing 2 creatures for cc5 is awesome, but the restriction is hard. In the best case you kill Hollowhenge Beast and Sentinel Spider and in the worse case you only get Nessian Courser and Llanowar Elves, while Stitched Drake is smashing in your face, while you still killed 2 creatures.
How would you guys rate the chance of not killing anything, because of missing targets?
Repeal is the third best card in that entire post, behind only Elves and Condescend. I really don't advocate cutting it. It's a great tempo card that you maindeck 100% of the time in control too.
The chance of not killing anything is extremely high, as you can tell if you've ever played with the card. It's incredibly frustrating and not very powerful, compared to other cube removal spells. It was in the first version of many of our pauper cubes waaaay back in the day, but I think it was among the first batch of cards to get the axe.
If you run Tarfire and Warren Weirding as well it could be ok. Those two, Sparksmith, Warren Pilferers, and potentially Spikeshot Goblin could be enough to make it worth it.
I've added those cards. I figure that if you have any of these three cards in your deck it's an okay removal spell for a cube environment that would take any kind of a Nekrataal, and having the ability to tutor up other more mana-intensive cards lategame is a nice upside.
I'm going to test it out, as it's a deceptively powerful card (play legacy goblins if you don't believe me, or even pauper goblins). That kind of an argument isn't really fair to the card because tutors are mainly strong because of their flexibility, not their strength when they find the most powerful card in your deck in a vacuum. It's notable that you can use it to tutor up removal on a body (eg skirk marauder) so that it's not just removal on an inconsequential body.
It may just be worse than burn, but hell, it's a lot less boring.
True, especially that last line. Adding the Tarfire and Nameless Inversion makes it much more interesting. Keep us updated on how it goes!
It's probably the 5th or 6th best pacifism variant, behind Pacifism, Temporal Isolation, Faith's Fetters, and Bonds of Faith. I'd normally also pick Recumbent Bliss over Arrest since games going long is more common than particularly troublesome creatures with activated abilities. Arrest isn't a bad card by any means, it's just that there are lot of arguably better options especially for 360 lists.
The same's true for mana elves and X burn spells in my opinion, except to a greater degree because mana elves and fireballs are better than looters, in my opinion. I've come to the conclusion that people think running a whole bunch of the same effect is boring and clearly it's not about power level. If anyone legitimitely thinks that Boreal Druid or Disintegrate aren't 360 power level, I'd love to know.
I don't think you're playing this card correctly. It's by far at its best in creature based matchups where it can bust up board stalls and make all of their blocks terrible. If you're not playing this guy onto a board with at least 3 more of your creatures, you're probably not doing it properly. Same goes for sacrificing lands to prevent damage to you. It's not really a late game card, but you're obviously right that it's not strong on curve. It's more a midgame card that you play when you're ahead to stay ahead, get a bunch of damage in and win the next turn ideally.
Yeah, it's not a strong card and I don't really know why people thought it would be to be honest.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Then I thought, no, there are just too many bad cards. Plus you don't really wana create an environment that feels like battle of the 1/4s. Why not just make a pauper or PEZ cube if you want the power level to feel like something more like a regular draft. That seemed like a great idea but then I got it in my head that all the cards should be whiteboarder and it just sort of snowballed from there.
What I wanted to ask you Pauper-People(TM) is if you can explain to me the real difference in feel between pauper cube and PEZ cube and why you made the decision to make pauper.
I have recently turned on a bunch of gits to cubing, but I've never been a cube owner, just always had a lot of friends with them, but now it's looking like I'm going to have to kick my cube creation into gear and I'm awfully curious about your format.
Thanks,
Your friend Lucas.
Cube talk, design community and much much more!
Pauper draft is like a high-power limited format from 5-10 years ago, before limited formats were so bomb-heavy (think, pre-Lorwyn). Everything is incremental gains, for the most part. I like that.
The range of power levels in Pauper is much more compressed. There are still swingy moments, but our swingy moments are Armadillo Cloak on a flier or Dawnglare Invoker with 11 mana. Far more manageable, and less bomb-driven. But at the same time, the decks you can make are less interesting, unless you decide to incorporate themes like Auras or Blink.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Modern formats really aren't bomb heavy if you're a good player playing a good player. Take M14 for instance - all of the bombs that are really devastating are mythic (granted there are 7+ insane mythics) or cost 7 or more (which makes them a whole lot less powerful).
Pauper's probably not better than peasant, but I cube it because I started to, and never really could be bothered changing to peasant. It's super easy to get all the cards, though.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Pauper cube reminds me most of what I like in drafts - there are a lot of "stock" strategies with a few fringe decks that can be very powerful if they come together (hexproof/auras and ramp come to mind). Games aren't solely about grinding out advantages, but there also aren't many huge bombs. Games are decided more through overall drafting and play skills than picking up specific bombs.
Peasant cubes can take a couple of different directions - they can have the same basic strategies and archetypes as a pauper cube except with more powerful cards, or they can play out more like a traditional cube by supporting a number of synergistic archetypes. Neither of those are that appealing to me. The first approach tends to make the limited environment more bomb-oriented and swingy, and for the second, if I wanted something that played like a traditional cube, I would just put together an unpowered cube list to get the full experience.
Also, the monetary aspects of making and maintaining a pauper cube are nice. I spent more on sleeves and specific basic lands than I did to get the actual cards for my cube. Peasant cubes aren't too expensive to update with each new set, but the initial cost to put something together can be pretty high (a few hundred dollars USD).
Draft it on Cubetutor!
When I was thinking about Pauper being less bomb-driven, I was thinking about the powerful creature-based cards or interactions, like the aforementioned cloak or Dawnglare, which are answerable with removal.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
If anything, it gives credence to hate drafting. If you are in the 3rd round, and you are in the middle of making a red/black deck and 1st pick is guardian of guild pact, I'm not letting that go, I'll keep it safe in my possession. Even if I did have terminate.
lol
Same goes if I saw, capsize and I was running green/white or something.
My experiences were roughly the same as Catullo's. They both made the initial cut and they were okay if suspended "on curve", but much later than that and I thought they were pretty bad. If I were going to run one, I'd be closer to giving the Baloth a second consideration because a 5/5 is still huge when drawn on turn 14, and I see the card is getting some traction for others.
And Dustwasp just generally wasn't what I wanted to be doing in my green decks. I'm either dropping bears and equipments or staring to ramp/fix to play whatever color bomb I drafted. A 3/3 flyer is fine, but suspended and in green it feels a like "I'm a little this, a little that, and I'm no good at either."
Draft it on Cubetutor!
I'm thinking what I will do is play with 48 rates to insert as the 15th card in each pack. I was thinking it would be fun for a good deal of them to be neat build around me cards. I was also considering having the exception to my pauper // PEZ thing being a flashy mana base. I guess what that consisted of would depend on what archetypes I was excited to support. Almost certainly have a lot of fetch lands and painful fixing though. I really like the influence of those cards on aggro.
I was thinking of cards like winds of rath and upheaval or like mildly tribal exciting creatures or stormy spells matter cards!
I guess this must seem out there and ambitious but I'd appreciate all your veteran wisdom.
Cube talk, design community and much much more!
Pauper storm is probably a bit more fair than normal cube storm, which would probably just end the game. In pauper the best you can do is spawn a million goblins or bounce a bunch of their permanents.
15th card gimmicks can be fun. When I had an artifact cube the 15th card was a piece of urzatron.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I'm going to test it out, as it's a deceptively powerful card (play legacy goblins if you don't believe me, or even pauper goblins). That kind of an argument isn't really fair to the card because tutors are mainly strong because of their flexibility, not their strength when they find the most powerful card in your deck in a vacuum. It's notable that you can use it to tutor up removal on a body (eg skirk marauder) so that it's not just removal on an inconsequential body.
It may just be worse than burn, but hell, it's a lot less boring.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Sorry, but this is a terrible idea.
You know, it's okay for cards to be terrible in Cube, especially when they've helped
definewarp other formats. Just let these sorts of cards go.Remove Soul is stronger than Syncopate. There are just more creatures that must be stopped (with the exception of a couple of bombs) for a control deck. And it is able to stop that annoying early beat down. Decks often have excess mana late game and control decks can't always afford to hold up a bajillion mana each turn to potentially stop that one game breaking card.
Into the Roil has admittedly impressed me a lot less recently for this reason. It effectively costs more mana for the same effect. It's still a good card, but if I decide that I only need one Repulse effect, I would cut it.
Also has anyone got any suggestions of more mana sinks for the late game, because often 2 decks will trade cards until they both have a big pile of land with nothing to do and that 1/1 beater going all the way. (There is always a random 1/1 beater.) And as Rubin said, this is another reason why X Burn spells are good.
Repeal is the third best card in that entire post, behind only Elves and Condescend. I really don't advocate cutting it. It's a great tempo card that you maindeck 100% of the time in control too.
The chance of not killing anything is extremely high, as you can tell if you've ever played with the card. It's incredibly frustrating and not very powerful, compared to other cube removal spells. It was in the first version of many of our pauper cubes waaaay back in the day, but I think it was among the first batch of cards to get the axe.
I've added those cards. I figure that if you have any of these three cards in your deck it's an okay removal spell for a cube environment that would take any kind of a Nekrataal, and having the ability to tutor up other more mana-intensive cards lategame is a nice upside.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
True, especially that last line. Adding the Tarfire and Nameless Inversion makes it much more interesting. Keep us updated on how it goes!
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2