well the competition is Phy War-Beast and Zombie Cutthroat.
I like it better than the cutthroat - they go in the same decks, and 5 life is very relevant. It's not like you have to give up the ability to block, too.
I think it's a decent card but won't be cubing it.
I don't think the scorpion is really very impressive in pauper. Seems worse than Thornweald Archers.
This is ping-proof, and has uses after it trades. Also its Scavenge cost is less than its mana cost.
True it is not aggressively costed, but for me it will be the 6th Deathtouch to reinforce the mechanic w/o being too generic. I had cut the Changeling and Daggerback b/c their stats did not compare as well with Giant Scorpion and Greater Basilisk
This is ping-proof, and has uses after it trades. Also its Scavenge cost is less than its mana cost.
True it is not aggressively costed, but for me it will be the 6th Deathtouch to reinforce the mechanic w/o being too generic. I had cut the Changeling and Daggerback b/c their stats did not compare as well with Giant Scorpion and Greater Basilisk
That seems reasonable. I'm looking for a replacement for Consume Strength, so I guess my bar is higher.
wait... replacement? Why? That thing is my fav of the BG section. Leeching Bite and Steal Strength may kill and go 2-for-1, Consume usually will.
I realize it's a good card, but I just find it kind of boring. It's not like there aren't better mono-coloured removal spells, and I like my guild cards to do something that my mono-coloured cards don't.
Okay, stay calm guys and don't do anything stupid like cut the borderposts. Just because we finally get actual duals doesn't mean we need to cut their functional artifact cousins just because they don't come in the enemy flavour.
Also their isn't the dramatic need to cut the panoramas either. Sure they might not be optimum, but they do their job fine in not 1 but 3 different colour combinations. We need all the colour fixing we can get currently without doing anything rash.
I still hold my stance against Signets, which is not to run them, but that is a personal choice not to give colours outside green too much mana ramp.
Thanks for the post, 5oul. I'm still giving some thought as to how I make color fixing available and hadn't considered the Signets.
Let me throw this out there for consideration: if you had to rank the following items in terms of their utility as mana fixing in typical pauper draft decks, in what order would you rate the following: Ravnica's 10 signets, Ravnica's "karoo"/bounce lands, Alara's panoramas, Alara's 5 borderposts, Return to Ravnica's 10 (once the next two sets are available) dual Gate lands?
I'm really not sure how to rate them at the moment.
In terms of fixing rather than power, the rankings for mana fixing go like this:
1. Guildgates - Just plain ETB duels, which are super good. They are going to be stapled in.
2. Borderposts - These play almost exactly like regular dual, slightly more of a liablilty as they require having a basic, which can occasionally lead to dead hands. Also will occasionally ramp, but isn't often relevant.
3. Panoramas - Might be slow but allow for 3 way fixing, and also are more flexible in which beck they can go into. These are going to stick around for quite a which despite being clunky.
4. Signets - They filter you mana into on-colours, but are slow to come online and 2 mana clumps can often be awkward. Are more often drafted for their ramping capabilities rather than mana fixing which encroaches on green territory, and encourage control decks, which is the reason I don't run them. I prefer the colourless mana rocks for that job. Also they aren't lands and actually take up slots in decks.
5. Bouncelands - Are a little slow a fixing mana, and give chunky clumps of mana. They do have the advantage of un-mulliganing you which allows for more keepable hands, abide slower and generating CA. Sometimes drafted off colour for those reasons and are also better in control, not aggro. Not fussed with them, but it would take a couple of new good land cycles before I'd consider kicking them out, although they are definitely powerful enough.
Just remember this is based off mana fixing rather than power. Also doesn't include the omni-fixing lands like Rupture Spire and Evolving Wilds.
I play Jilt, it's much more of a unique card in my opinion. But hey, you can like Consume Strength if you want.
Bouncelands are getting way underrated around here! In my opinion:
1-2) Bouncelands and Gates. Bouncelands are better in some decks, gates are better in others. Maybe gates have the edge of being better in more decks, but I'm not sure.
3) Borderposts: Again, these are better than bouncelands in some combinations, but they get hit by artifact removal so are worse in general than the gates and bouncelands.
4) Signets: These aren't really in the same slot, because some decks just can't play them. They're really good if they're on colour and in the right deck.
5) Panoramas: I've found these to be very slow, and only good in three colour decks. Even there Terramorphic Expanse is way better.
I can't rank Signets with the fixing lands because different decks have differing needs for the ramp. On the lands however, I rank them Guildgate, Borderposts, Karoos, and then Panoramas.
I am going to agree Signets, when used right, are great. But seldom are they. Much like the Mana Myrs of Mirrodin Senior, you sometimes took them to simply advance your game plan.
I don't have them for 2 reasons. 1) Legitimate arguments have been made against them, and I have been swayed. 2) Do you know what the foil prices are?
I love me some Panoramas, I may be alone there. I think the Guild Gates will be the true answer to drafting better. Bounce lands are tricky and don't favor aggro as clearly.
Mind Games don't look that bad at al, but for what it does it is easily replaced by superior effects such as Capsize and Flood as mentioned.
But even after that I feel that the cantrapping bounce spells such as Into the Roil and Repulse out do it by providing effects that are more powerful, which the ability to press for tempo advantage and they have to lock up their mana for another turn which you cast another on curve threat, or tempo spell. It is too much to lock up 4 mana each turn to lock out one card. Ultimately I wouldn't run it, as the effect is too costly to be effective
Also I have the feeling that people here are under-rating the borderposts. Those things function like guildgates 96% of the time. Only occasionally they die to artifact removal, but the ability to well fix your mana far over weighs any of their draw backs. Fixing your mana is paramount to winning. Every non-monocoloured deck in cube could be improved with more mana fixing, so run them!
I also feel that Undead Revealer is good enough for cube, but it is in tight compition in the 3cc slot. Among the CA generating creatures and the 3 power evasion dudes, it is just below them, but after those cards I feel it is the next best thing. A 3/4 is huge in black for 3 mana, and the sure the can't block Unleased mode is better play, but even if non-counter state isn't bad as options are far better than none at all! I feel he is good enough to be tested out in people's cubes to see how relevant the 4 toughess is. Admittedly he dodges a decent amount of both black and red removal, being both black and out of bolt range, which is definitely a big plus.
I also feel that Undead Revealer is good enough for cube, but it is in tight compition in the 3cc slot. Among the CA generating creatures and the 3 power evasion dudes, it is just below them, but after those cards I feel it is the next best thing. A 3/4 is huge in black for 3 mana, and the sure the can't block Unleased mode is better play, but even if non-counter state isn't bad as options are far better than none at all! I feel he is good enough to be tested out in people's cubes to see how relevant the 4 toughess is. Admittedly he dodges a decent amount of both black and red removal, being both black and out of bolt range, which is definitely a big plus.
He seems pretty good to me, yeah. It's not like he's an autoinclude but it's definitely a solid aggressive beater in black.
I can't understand why people are actually thinking about cutting bounce lands. Not only do I rank them just under the Gates for mana fixing, but I think it's a terrible idea to be cutting mana fixing lands when we have so few at our disposal. My rankings for mana fixing are as follows:
If I end up cutting any mana fixing at all, it will be signets, because those take up an actual card slot vs. a land slot, and that's really important, imo. I've found that it's hard enough as is to make cuts when drafting my cube vs. more powerful cubes because more picks are spent on nonland cards since there are so few nonbasics in the cube.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
I can't understand why people are actually thinking about cutting bounce lands. Not only do I rank them just under the Gates for mana fixing, but I think it's a terrible idea to be cutting mana fixing lands when we have so few at our disposal. My rankings for mana fixing are as follows:
If I end up cutting any mana fixing at all, it will be signets, because those take up an actual card slot vs. a land slot, and that's really important, imo. I've found that it's hard enough as is to make cuts when drafting my cube vs. more powerful cubes because more picks are spent on nonland cards since there are so few nonbasics in the cube.
I don't like bouncelands for the same reason R&D don't like them, but I'd never dream of cutting them. They are far too good, and mana fixing lands are far to valuable for us to cut any.
No one should be cutting any lands at this point. Not even Panoramas, which are currently the worst of the land section mana fixers played. We'll need at least another set or 2 of good mana fixers to even dream about that.
Had the first proper run of my cube tonight, and it was a blast. Only six people, I drafted Jund aggro when I should have committed to any two of those colours, so I ended up losing two of my matches. Still, the response was incredibly positive, with the only real complaint being that there was too much manafixing going round, something that I feel could be changed with smaller boosters.
What size booster do you recommend for 6 people? I vaguely remember seeing someone say 12, but that could be my brain inventing stuff.
As for the Gate question... I probably won't run them. I'm mostly going on a gut feeling here, but they just don't feel like they do enough.
Dragonlover
WHAT!? GUILDGATES ARE THE BEST DUALS WE'VE BEEN GIVEN IN EVER! NOT TO RUN THEM IS SACRILEGE.
The only reason people would feel that there is too much fixing is because they aren't drafting it high enough. Mana-fixing is key to making a good deck, adding more power and consistency to literally everything. Drafting mana-fixing isn't always the obviously right move, but there is a lot of hidden power in them that you don't often notice. Not landing spells on curve from colour screw losses games and is easily prevented.
I don't like bouncelands for the same reason R&D don't like them, but I'd never dream of cutting them. They are far too good, and mana fixing lands are far to valuable for us to cut any.
No one should be cutting any lands at this point. Not even Panoramas, which are currently the worst of the land section mana fixers played. We'll need at least another set or 2 of good mana fixers to even dream about that.
I don't agree, because panoramas at least in the aggressive combinations are continually cut here for basic lands. I might keep the 3 blue ones, but they're just so bad in aggressive decks.
I find it really funny that signets and bouncelands are considered mistakes when they made ravnica limited awesome and didn't even impact constructed that much apart from in control/tron decks. They tried "correcting" these "mistakes" in alara with obelisks and borderposts which were annoyingly slow, and it ended up that you had just as terrible mana in a shard as you had when you were 5-colour. And neither had any impact on constructed.
R&D really hate anything that even slightly defiles the colour pie. And in their learned opinion Signets provide too much ramping and mana fixing to non-green colours than R&D would like. Also they don't like Karoos because they are lands that generate CA just by entering the battlefield and are often taken off colour just for that rather than their colour fixing properties which they where designed for.
I find it really funny that signets and bouncelands are considered mistakes when they made ravnica limited awesome and didn't even impact constructed that much apart from in control/tron decks. They tried "correcting" these "mistakes" in alara with obelisks and borderposts which were annoyingly slow, and it ended up that you had just as terrible mana in a shard as you had when you were 5-colour. And neither had any impact on constructed.
Actually,the signets dominated RAV CHK Standard and RAV TSP as well. Plus it isnt cool making lands some of the best cards in the set
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My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I like it better than the cutthroat - they go in the same decks, and 5 life is very relevant. It's not like you have to give up the ability to block, too.
I think it's a decent card but won't be cubing it.
I don't think the scorpion is really very impressive in pauper. Seems worse than Thornweald Archers.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
True it is not aggressively costed, but for me it will be the 6th Deathtouch to reinforce the mechanic w/o being too generic. I had cut the Changeling and Daggerback b/c their stats did not compare as well with Giant Scorpion and Greater Basilisk
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That seems reasonable. I'm looking for a replacement for Consume Strength, so I guess my bar is higher.
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I realize it's a good card, but I just find it kind of boring. It's not like there aren't better mono-coloured removal spells, and I like my guild cards to do something that my mono-coloured cards don't.
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Thanks for the post, 5oul. I'm still giving some thought as to how I make color fixing available and hadn't considered the Signets.
Let me throw this out there for consideration: if you had to rank the following items in terms of their utility as mana fixing in typical pauper draft decks, in what order would you rate the following: Ravnica's 10 signets, Ravnica's "karoo"/bounce lands, Alara's panoramas, Alara's 5 borderposts, Return to Ravnica's 10 (once the next two sets are available) dual Gate lands?
I'm really not sure how to rate them at the moment.
Sig courtesy of Disappointing Signet Inc.
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1. Guildgates - Just plain ETB duels, which are super good. They are going to be stapled in.
2. Borderposts - These play almost exactly like regular dual, slightly more of a liablilty as they require having a basic, which can occasionally lead to dead hands. Also will occasionally ramp, but isn't often relevant.
3. Panoramas - Might be slow but allow for 3 way fixing, and also are more flexible in which beck they can go into. These are going to stick around for quite a which despite being clunky.
4. Signets - They filter you mana into on-colours, but are slow to come online and 2 mana clumps can often be awkward. Are more often drafted for their ramping capabilities rather than mana fixing which encroaches on green territory, and encourage control decks, which is the reason I don't run them. I prefer the colourless mana rocks for that job. Also they aren't lands and actually take up slots in decks.
5. Bouncelands - Are a little slow a fixing mana, and give chunky clumps of mana. They do have the advantage of un-mulliganing you which allows for more keepable hands, abide slower and generating CA. Sometimes drafted off colour for those reasons and are also better in control, not aggro. Not fussed with them, but it would take a couple of new good land cycles before I'd consider kicking them out, although they are definitely powerful enough.
Just remember this is based off mana fixing rather than power. Also doesn't include the omni-fixing lands like Rupture Spire and Evolving Wilds.
I play Jilt, it's much more of a unique card in my opinion. But hey, you can like Consume Strength if you want.
Bouncelands are getting way underrated around here! In my opinion:
1-2) Bouncelands and Gates. Bouncelands are better in some decks, gates are better in others. Maybe gates have the edge of being better in more decks, but I'm not sure.
3) Borderposts: Again, these are better than bouncelands in some combinations, but they get hit by artifact removal so are worse in general than the gates and bouncelands.
4) Signets: These aren't really in the same slot, because some decks just can't play them. They're really good if they're on colour and in the right deck.
5) Panoramas: I've found these to be very slow, and only good in three colour decks. Even there Terramorphic Expanse is way better.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
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1) Bouncelands
2) Signets
3) GuildGates
4) Borderlands
5) Panoramas
My errata'd commons cube
I don't have them for 2 reasons. 1) Legitimate arguments have been made against them, and I have been swayed. 2) Do you know what the foil prices are?
I love me some Panoramas, I may be alone there. I think the Guild Gates will be the true answer to drafting better. Bounce lands are tricky and don't favor aggro as clearly.
Borderposts are just gates with bullseyes.
Signets
Gates
Bouncelands
Panoramas
Borderposts
On another shot in the dark:
Mind Games - U
Buyback - 2U
Tap target Creature, Artifact or Land
I am pondering how this could be argued for, but I am getting the feeling every case has it below Capsize, Flood, and the cantrip bounce spells
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But even after that I feel that the cantrapping bounce spells such as Into the Roil and Repulse out do it by providing effects that are more powerful, which the ability to press for tempo advantage and they have to lock up their mana for another turn which you cast another on curve threat, or tempo spell. It is too much to lock up 4 mana each turn to lock out one card. Ultimately I wouldn't run it, as the effect is too costly to be effective
Also I have the feeling that people here are under-rating the borderposts. Those things function like guildgates 96% of the time. Only occasionally they die to artifact removal, but the ability to well fix your mana far over weighs any of their draw backs. Fixing your mana is paramount to winning. Every non-monocoloured deck in cube could be improved with more mana fixing, so run them!
I also feel that Undead Revealer is good enough for cube, but it is in tight compition in the 3cc slot. Among the CA generating creatures and the 3 power evasion dudes, it is just below them, but after those cards I feel it is the next best thing. A 3/4 is huge in black for 3 mana, and the sure the can't block Unleased mode is better play, but even if non-counter state isn't bad as options are far better than none at all! I feel he is good enough to be tested out in people's cubes to see how relevant the 4 toughess is. Admittedly he dodges a decent amount of both black and red removal, being both black and out of bolt range, which is definitely a big plus.
He seems pretty good to me, yeah. It's not like he's an autoinclude but it's definitely a solid aggressive beater in black.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
1. Gates
2. Bounce Lands
3. Panoramas
4. Borderposts
5. Signets
If I end up cutting any mana fixing at all, it will be signets, because those take up an actual card slot vs. a land slot, and that's really important, imo. I've found that it's hard enough as is to make cuts when drafting my cube vs. more powerful cubes because more picks are spent on nonland cards since there are so few nonbasics in the cube.
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I don't like bouncelands for the same reason R&D don't like them, but I'd never dream of cutting them. They are far too good, and mana fixing lands are far to valuable for us to cut any.
No one should be cutting any lands at this point. Not even Panoramas, which are currently the worst of the land section mana fixers played. We'll need at least another set or 2 of good mana fixers to even dream about that.
WHAT!? GUILDGATES ARE THE BEST DUALS WE'VE BEEN GIVEN IN EVER! NOT TO RUN THEM IS SACRILEGE.
The only reason people would feel that there is too much fixing is because they aren't drafting it high enough. Mana-fixing is key to making a good deck, adding more power and consistency to literally everything. Drafting mana-fixing isn't always the obviously right move, but there is a lot of hidden power in them that you don't often notice. Not landing spells on curve from colour screw losses games and is easily prevented.
I don't agree, because panoramas at least in the aggressive combinations are continually cut here for basic lands. I might keep the 3 blue ones, but they're just so bad in aggressive decks.
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R&D really hate anything that even slightly defiles the colour pie. And in their learned opinion Signets provide too much ramping and mana fixing to non-green colours than R&D would like. Also they don't like Karoos because they are lands that generate CA just by entering the battlefield and are often taken off colour just for that rather than their colour fixing properties which they where designed for.
Actually,the signets dominated RAV CHK Standard and RAV TSP as well. Plus it isnt cool making lands some of the best cards in the set
My errata'd commons cube
I wouldn't say dominated, personally. They were powerful cards, sure.
Plus bouncelands weren't even close to being as good as shocklands...
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