Bah, I hate storm combo, it takes away all the fun toys. It's like that kid in school that was unable to handle a knife safely so that no-one can have knives anymore :-(
--
If you are getting a land, as opposed to adding mana to your pool, you don't need the weird "no landdrop" ruling, just put the land in hand rather than in play and the result will be the same.
The problem with having something on the battlefield that you sacrifice for a land is that you have to pay for it first to have it in play. That means that it's two modes both want to be used early.
How about: "Exile this card from your hand: reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card, and put that card into your hand. Put all other revealed cards at the bottom of your library in a random order". Now it would basically be a man-land without the "comes into play tapped" clause, so I guess a mana payment would have to be added, and we are back with the basic landcyclers.
I have been mulling on the possible fair spirit guide, and can't solve it in a matter that is both something you want to play, not something completely broken, and has less text than Ice Cauldron.
But I was looking for cards that loot with large toughness but still a fairly low casting cost. Something like
Defending Looter 1U
Creature - Wizard Wall T: Draw a card, then discard a card.
0/3
Given you don't play Merfolk Lotter et al for their ability to chump block (i.e. you don't block because you don't want to lose the ability), I'd make that swap in a heart beat to stave off threats even if I can't kill anything.
Just a random card design around the looting ability.
Pump looter
Creature - Something
Cost 2U
2/2
At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card, then discard a card. If the discard card is a Forest, ~this~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
The pump just feels like something Simic would do, but the card filtering is good if you don't trigger the pump or play it without green.
Yeah, maybe a little. Wanted to make sure it was playable though. I thought about making it any land for a +1/+1 effect, but that doesn't feel blue; discarding a Forest means you have to be green and fits on a more flavor level. I also pondered adding a tap effect with a cost;
"Ut: Draw a card, then discard a card. If the discarded card was a Forest, untap ~this~ and it gets +1/+1 until end of turn."
What about just a looter that untaps if you discard a land? What would that need to cost? Getting more out of a loot by discarding a land has at least been in blue's colour pie earlier, with Compulsive Research.
So maybe
Compulsive Looter 2U
Creature - Wizzard T:Draw a card, then discard a card. If the discarded card was a land card, untap compulsive looter.
1/3
i like the idea of cards that are definitely playable, but have greater strengths in a certain colour combination. sort of gold cards but not necessarily.
Elves of secret fire is cool, though I strongly doubt they'd ever do anything like that for monored. My monored card accelerating and fixing my other colors, never.
Blue avacyns pilgrim is blue avacyn's pilgrim. Sure, why not. 0/2 or 0/3?
Compulsive looter is unprintable since you can just never have lands ever again.
Those are nice-looking cards at least. I also don't think the elf is completely colour-pie kosher. The damage for mana doesn't feel right in green either. I know Elves of Deep Shadowexists, but it is fairly old, and the fact that it taps for B somehow feels more flavourfully correct.
I didn't think red really got permanent mana-ramp at all, but i actually has Exuberant Firestoker, Smokebraider, Sisters of the Flame (ancient) and, I suppose, Koth of the Hammer. Maybe it could be printed if it added 1. As Leelue said, I don't think they would want a mono-red to have tools like these for fixing your splash colour. But then again, Manamorphose..
Also looking at it now, I believe Leelue is right about the Compulsive looter, and it should be obvious. I just went from the idea presented by Bacchus and tried to clean it up. Perhaps changing activation cost to UT, but probably it would still be too good. Maybe forcing it to only work on your turn, as then you have to choose between the blocker and looter halves of the card.
Other options quickly become wordy.
EDIT: Precedents for untapping looters are Lumengrid Augur and Zephyr Scribe. Actually, Zephyr Scribe looks kinda interesting. It should just have been a little more pushed in certain directions and it would be awesome.
Not sure why Compulsive Looter would be unprintable. It doesn't prevent you from having lands; it's just like a regular looter with some upside if you choose to discard a land. I can see it as being skilltesting, since some people might see that they must activate the extra benefit if the opportunity is there, when maybe keeping and playing the land is better. But with an untap trigger, an activation cost is necessary.
Things I would love to see at one point (and think are reasonable):
Blade of the Swiftclaw 1W
Creature - Cat Warrior
3/2
Attended Outcast 2W
Creature - Human Warrior
First Strike
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose one -
- Put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
- Put a 1/1 white Soldier creature token onto the battlefield.
2/2
Illusory Flying Men U
Creature - Human
Flying
When ~ becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it.
2/1
Jackal Puppy R
Creature - Hound
~ can't block.
Whenever ~ becomes blocked, it deals 2 damage to you.
2/2
Volcanic Drake 4RR
Creature - Drake
Flying, First Strike
5/3
Shattering Shock R
Sorcery
Choose one -
- ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
- Destroy target artifact.
Hungry Lion G
Creature - Cat
Whenever ~attacks, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
1/1
Not sure why Compulsive Looter would be unprintable. It doesn't prevent you from having lands; it's just like a regular looter with some upside if you choose to discard a land. I can see it as being skilltesting, since some people might see that they must activate the extra benefit if the opportunity is there, when maybe keeping and playing the land is better.
1) When the choices are straightforward, I assume people are going to play properly.
2) You know that point in the game where you don't really need more lands? This card replaces every land you draw with a spell from that point on. Not even from that point on, since if you have the amount of lands you want in your hand plus any others you can just woop woop the excess away, and any more you happen to draw. Completely vaporizing the natural variance is something of a big deal for a 3 drop. It's just an idea that seems like it'd have to be overcosted by too much to be reasonable in limited.
On the looter that loots away all your land, a comparison could perhaps be made to Abundance, that costs 4 and allows you to never draw land again. It has the up- and downsides of not being a creature, and it also has the other mode of helping you find lands (which Compulsive Looter would also help with, but not with a 100% hit rate). Compulsive Looter also allows you to loot away lands already in your hand, so you can sanbag lands for payoff for when you draw your looter late. Abundance doesn't allow for this value. Abundance also gives your opponent perfect information about your draws. I'm guessing Compulsive Looter could perhaps be printed at 3UU or something. Not sure what a pushed but printable mana cost would be if it had an activation cost of UT. Maybe1UU?
--
So i just realized that there is no black card that just destroys two target creatures. Somewhat surprising, isn't it? It could be that it would just be priced at a point where no-one would play it anyway, but it does seem like something of a hole in a "list of cards I would've thought existed by now".
Can we imagine a cost where this could be printed but not be bad? It would have to be priced somewhere between Murder and Plague Wind presumably.
(And I know we have Ashes to Ashes and it's modern cousin.)
I reckon 3BB is too optimistic. Probably 5BB when you consider some other limited removal. Hex costs 4bb for 6 creatures... but the drawback is that it needs 6 targets (and of course is a rare). Finding two targets will be relatively easy, at least when we are talking peasant cube. But it would still look ridiculous by comparison. Maybe you could make something more affordable by making it multi-colour (Rakdos), or throwing 3-4 black symbols in the casting cost so it requires dedication to use it.
Hell yes. It's a two for two, but you trade your worst creature for their best two. Suppose it has the downside of sometimes being uncastable because you don't have a creature. Curve topper in aggro, great for token decks, and still playable just about anywhere else.
Though it is of course not the elegance that Jovian was looking for.
Thanks for reminding me of the starfish. If the land you are looting away sits on top of your library, then I guess scrying comes close.
---
On the destroy two creatures. As far as I can tell, "simple arithmetic" gives a cost of [Murder] + [Murder] + ["2 for the card"] = 4BBBB. This is a starting point. We also know that combining two effects on a card can sometimes be cheaper than this. Nekrataal for example, ends up with fairly low costs for either the Terror, the Youthful Knight or "the card". Another thing is that as you go up in cost, cards start doing powerful things in a manner that is not always linear.
This means that a non-delve Dead Drop could probably see print at around 6B-7B.
If we can take Doom Blade vs. Diabolic Edict and Tribute to Hunger vs. Murder tells us that targeted removal can cost around the same as edict effects, a "destroy two target creatures" spell could perhaps be expected to cost something similar. Adding a couple of more black mana symbols should tune it down somewhat. I think Majikan's suggestion of 3BBB is plausible.
I dunno. There are so many ways to look at this. Extrapolating the comparison between targeted removal and edict effects at low cmc and upwards is probably flawed as well, since targeted removal becomes much more valuable later in the game when you are able to cast these spells. It may also be that since they have been pushing tokensinStandard recently, that they feel they could push a double edict harder than they otherwise would.
I dunno.. I feel like there should be an opening for this card to exist at 3BB. At that cost, you are wiping the board anyway, so is destroying two really that broken? Sadly, if they decided to push it at that cost for whatever constructed purpose, it would be at most definitely be at rare to balance limited. If it ever ended up at uncommon, I think 5BB would be most likely.
--
EDIT: I was pointed towards Silence the Believers in another thread. That would do better than destroy two creatures for 4BBB, with the flexibility of also being a cheaper killspell earlier, and even a kill three for ten mana for the times that comes up.
Approach the Future
Cost :
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Whenever enchanted creatures attacks or blocks, scry 2.
Sacrifice Approach the Future : Draw a card.
I think it's elegant enough. I started with thinking it could scry X, based on power when attacking or toughness when blocking, but there are some cheap creatures with high power or toughness and while not broken, thought a flat 2 was cleaner. Considered having it only on attack (as I was looking for an aggro oriented card for blue and green), but triggering on blocks gives it more flexibility in a cube environment. You can always just cast it as a Preordain (with a restriction of needing a creature you are attacking with), or keep it in play if the smoothing is more beneficial, and always drawing a card before the creature bites the dust... or maybe blocking, scrying into a combat trick, and drawing it. That would be awesome. Or attacking, scrying into the burn that will win you the game.
That is a sweet interaction I had not considered in its design. I'd assume there will be times it will just be a cantrip, but with the option of keeping it in play if you have a few cards you can play in your hand over the next couple of turns.
--
If you are getting a land, as opposed to adding mana to your pool, you don't need the weird "no landdrop" ruling, just put the land in hand rather than in play and the result will be the same.
The problem with having something on the battlefield that you sacrifice for a land is that you have to pay for it first to have it in play. That means that it's two modes both want to be used early.
How about: "Exile this card from your hand: reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card, and put that card into your hand. Put all other revealed cards at the bottom of your library in a random order". Now it would basically be a man-land without the "comes into play tapped" clause, so I guess a mana payment would have to be added, and we are back with the basic landcyclers.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
But I was looking for cards that loot with large toughness but still a fairly low casting cost. Something like
Creature - Wizard Wall
T: Draw a card, then discard a card.
0/3
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Pump looter
Creature - Something
Cost 2U
2/2
At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card, then discard a card. If the discard card is a Forest, ~this~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
The pump just feels like something Simic would do, but the card filtering is good if you don't trigger the pump or play it without green.
You get a 2/2 body and potential pump, against the option of choosing Dragons and taxing all your enemy's spells..
Hmmm. A creature is also easier to remove though, so perhaps not super pushed?
I like the design though.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
"Ut: Draw a card, then discard a card. If the discarded card was a Forest, untap ~this~ and it gets +1/+1 until end of turn."
So maybe
Compulsive Looter 2U
Creature - Wizzard
T:Draw a card, then discard a card. If the discarded card was a land card, untap compulsive looter.
1/3
?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Blue avacyns pilgrim is blue avacyn's pilgrim. Sure, why not. 0/2 or 0/3?
Compulsive looter is unprintable since you can just never have lands ever again.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I didn't think red really got permanent mana-ramp at all, but i actually has Exuberant Firestoker, Smokebraider, Sisters of the Flame (ancient) and, I suppose, Koth of the Hammer. Maybe it could be printed if it added 1. As Leelue said, I don't think they would want a mono-red to have tools like these for fixing your splash colour. But then again, Manamorphose..
Also looking at it now, I believe Leelue is right about the Compulsive looter, and it should be obvious. I just went from the idea presented by Bacchus and tried to clean it up. Perhaps changing activation cost to UT, but probably it would still be too good. Maybe forcing it to only work on your turn, as then you have to choose between the blocker and looter halves of the card.
Other options quickly become wordy.
EDIT: Precedents for untapping looters are Lumengrid Augur and Zephyr Scribe. Actually, Zephyr Scribe looks kinda interesting. It should just have been a little more pushed in certain directions and it would be awesome.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
the blue one obv has to be a little bit better than the other elves, thats why its 1/2
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Creature - Cat Warrior
3/2
Creature - Human Warrior
First Strike
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose one -
- Put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
- Put a 1/1 white Soldier creature token onto the battlefield.
2/2
Creature - Human
Flying
When ~ becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it.
2/1
Creature - Hound
~ can't block.
Whenever ~ becomes blocked, it deals 2 damage to you.
2/2
Creature - Drake
Flying, First Strike
5/3
Sorcery
Choose one -
- ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
- Destroy target artifact.
Creature - Cat
Whenever ~attacks, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
1/1
Creature - Beast
Trample
3/2
My C/Ube on Cube Cobra
Want.
1) When the choices are straightforward, I assume people are going to play properly.
2) You know that point in the game where you don't really need more lands? This card replaces every land you draw with a spell from that point on. Not even from that point on, since if you have the amount of lands you want in your hand plus any others you can just woop woop the excess away, and any more you happen to draw. Completely vaporizing the natural variance is something of a big deal for a 3 drop. It's just an idea that seems like it'd have to be overcosted by too much to be reasonable in limited.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
--
So i just realized that there is no black card that just destroys two target creatures. Somewhat surprising, isn't it? It could be that it would just be priced at a point where no-one would play it anyway, but it does seem like something of a hole in a "list of cards I would've thought existed by now".
Can we imagine a cost where this could be printed but not be bad? It would have to be priced somewhere between Murder and Plague Wind presumably.
(And I know we have Ashes to Ashes and it's modern cousin.)
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
sorcery
as an additional cost to cast ~, sacrifice a creature.
destroy two target creatures.
would we play this?
Though it is of course not the elegance that Jovian was looking for.
---
On the destroy two creatures. As far as I can tell, "simple arithmetic" gives a cost of [Murder] + [Murder] + ["2 for the card"] = 4BBBB. This is a starting point. We also know that combining two effects on a card can sometimes be cheaper than this. Nekrataal for example, ends up with fairly low costs for either the Terror, the Youthful Knight or "the card". Another thing is that as you go up in cost, cards start doing powerful things in a manner that is not always linear.
Actually, it may be better to start with Dead Drop, which is in standard right now. I think someone found that delve cards were typically given an extra cost of 2-3 compared to what they would have cost without delve:
Set adrift vs. Time Ebb/Griptide (Also nonland vs. creature)
Sultai Scavenger vs Phantom Monster (Black's flying 3/3s either cost more with upside, or less with downside)
Tasigur's Cruelty vs. Unnerve, Mind Rot
Treasure Cruise vs. Brilliant Plan, Concentrate.
Become Immense vs. Might of Oaks.
This means that a non-delve Dead Drop could probably see print at around 6B-7B.
If we can take Doom Blade vs. Diabolic Edict and Tribute to Hunger vs. Murder tells us that targeted removal can cost around the same as edict effects, a "destroy two target creatures" spell could perhaps be expected to cost something similar. Adding a couple of more black mana symbols should tune it down somewhat. I think Majikan's suggestion of 3BBB is plausible.
I dunno. There are so many ways to look at this. Extrapolating the comparison between targeted removal and edict effects at low cmc and upwards is probably flawed as well, since targeted removal becomes much more valuable later in the game when you are able to cast these spells. It may also be that since they have been pushing tokens in Standard recently, that they feel they could push a double edict harder than they otherwise would.
I dunno.. I feel like there should be an opening for this card to exist at 3BB. At that cost, you are wiping the board anyway, so is destroying two really that broken? Sadly, if they decided to push it at that cost for whatever constructed purpose, it would be at most definitely be at rare to balance limited. If it ever ended up at uncommon, I think 5BB would be most likely.
--
EDIT: I was pointed towards Silence the Believers in another thread. That would do better than destroy two creatures for 4BBB, with the flexibility of also being a cheaper killspell earlier, and even a kill three for ten mana for the times that comes up.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Cost :
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Whenever enchanted creatures attacks or blocks, scry 2.
Sacrifice Approach the Future : Draw a card.
I think it's elegant enough. I started with thinking it could scry X, based on power when attacking or toughness when blocking, but there are some cheap creatures with high power or toughness and while not broken, thought a flat 2 was cleaner. Considered having it only on attack (as I was looking for an aggro oriented card for blue and green), but triggering on blocks gives it more flexibility in a cube environment. You can always just cast it as a Preordain (with a restriction of needing a creature you are attacking with), or keep it in play if the smoothing is more beneficial, and always drawing a card before the creature bites the dust... or maybe blocking, scrying into a combat trick, and drawing it. That would be awesome. Or attacking, scrying into the burn that will win you the game.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article