hm yeah, maybe i overrate the hand a bit, but it was an allstar while playing. thrill kill ended up being 1/2 in my cube most of the time, so its hardly better.
the 2nd toughness (in blocker mode) is a big improvement for Thrill-Kill
hm yeah, maybe i overrate the hand a bit, but it was an allstar while playing. thrill kill ended up being 1/2 in my cube most of the time, so its hardly better.
the 2nd toughness (in blocker mode) is a big improvement for Thrill-Kill
nah, its better against ping effects. in combat it doenst matter. 1/x are hardly a threat. but being able to also attack for 2 as well is an upside for me.
hm yeah, maybe i overrate the hand a bit, but it was an allstar while playing. thrill kill ended up being 1/2 in my cube most of the time, so its hardly better.
the 2nd toughness (in blocker mode) is a big improvement for Thrill-Kill
nah, its better against ping effects. in combat it doenst matter. 1/x are hardly a threat. but being able to also attack for 2 as well is an upside for me.
semantics. I agree that it is a big improvement in one area (pings) and not so much another (surviving combat). The question is how much weight to assign it overall. It certainly counts for something as an extra toughness is far from cosmetic.
Hey team. I would like to mention Modal Creatures (+++), flexibility in Black to be your primary/complementary Aggro. The way red was a few years back. 1B 2/X's are lifeblood of that argument as a complimentary color. Evasion is also a large defining part.
My cube has its quirks. But I try to support aggressive bodies in all colors based on: Single-Color mana, Power >/= cost, and evasion.
For that I argue for Thrill Kill as Staple, but also keeping Interloper and Horror too. True "balls out"/"don't look back" aggressive decks need things that can get in 2+ times over the next consecutive turns to enable Bloodlust, Ninjitsu, or other tricks.
Black being control is, imo, as outdated as Blue being Control First then any other. Control in draft for new players is a trap and veterans abuse that.
blue never was as strong for control in paupercubes as it is in constructed, but black is basically the only color that supports it, because it has the crucial sweeper. before i tweaked black towards control, the deck didnt work very well, because 2/1s and pestilence is anti-synergystic. but since i support Bx control, UB is easily the best deck when it gets all the tools it wants.
the question is whether you see full control archetype support as a niche, because then pestilence and so on become cubable only as well.
I actually dont think its Tier1 meta when you cut control and make every color aggro, blue and black being the weakest, with a bunch of 2/1 folding to turn1 Desert, besides removing the control/midrange/aggro balance.
so, i played a bunch of drafts lately on xmage and could finetune my t2 quite a bit. it turned out, the 1/1 looter are unplayable there as well, although i even run a recursion and madness theme there. ive no idea in what kind of non-aggro cubes they might work, but there no way staple and actually i even doubt cubable right now. the 2/1 are okay, since they they can be somewhat useful in combat and you dont need to start looting on t3 anyway.
I finally got opaline bracer to work and its +4+4 kinda reliable in the right deck. its still really clunky, so ill keep it but its not too great. the problem is, in the fast matchups you can never cast it and in the grindy matchups it almost doesnt matter how big the creature is, as long as it sticks.
other observations Dewdrop Spy the effect is surprisingly strong, since it lets you decide whether to keep countermana or not. and flash is always welcome in blue control.
also blue control is really good, thanks to the ghostly flicker shenenigans.
whither is really insane, makes me even consider Blight Sickle. it the closest to equipable deathtouch we got.
Bladed Pinions is listed as bad here, i even run it in tier1. card is solid allaround becomes nuts on deathtouchers. mentioned a few times before.
Horned Helm (cubable!)i ran it in my t1 for quite a while as well, since it provides the neccessary trample on bigger dudes and the +1+1 is neat as well. equip cost of 1 and the ability to move it in combat makes it much better than leonin scimitar variants that are listed borderline. im pretty sure al overlooked the +1+1, but im also sure i mentioned this card years ago before.
on the other hand i dont see a deck where i want to run Neurok Stealthsuit. its borderline at best. Whispersilk Cloak is rated borderline btw, that card turns every creature into an unbeatable finisher. (cubable to staple)
the cc3 mana stones are bad. theyre way too slow and we have tons of cc2 options for mana fixing. scuttlemut is maybe cubable (id say borderline) because it has an interesting effect on blacks removal suite. the rest of the stuff is just bad.
Phyrexian War Beast it was great in 1997, when it could block black knight in white wheenie. ever since bounce was in the meta, the card was unplayable.
sickleslicer is quite bad as well. equip 4 is just too much. (every equip >1 is basically too much >2 unplayable)
Tumble Magnet. Borderline. Id never run it unless i have some artifact synergies going. for cc3 there are real removal options in every color.
i said its basically too much. at least for aggressive equips. pinions are more of a control card, so equip is tolerable and it serves as pseudo removal.
helm is awesome it got replaced by Cartouche of Strength in my t1 though. games are decided quick enough that one shot trample + removal ususally is enough.
Kitesail is not better and just got removed from t2. First strike is way more relevant than one additional power. Especially with deathtouch, but also in normal creature combat. You should try the card finally, since i remember another topic were you were looking for such an effect.
The decks than can use double U to switch this thing around dont play many creatures or have more flexible ways to protect them. Im pretty sure the card is irrelevant pretty often.
The cloak is a totally different beast than the bracers. In powered cubes the amount of removal is insane. this turn just every creature with relevant power into a win. especially on greens 5 power guys. While with bracers they just get chumped, bounced, removed whatever. Cloak is in the top10 most broken commons easily. you equip it once and win the game.
so, i played a bunch of drafts lately on xmage and could finetune my t2 quite a bit. it turned out, the 1/1 looter are unplayable there as well, although i even run a recursion and madness theme there. ive no idea in what kind of non-aggro cubes they might work, but there no way staple and actually i even doubt cubable right now. the 2/1 are okay, since they they can be somewhat useful in combat and you dont need to start looting on t3 anyway.
They've all been incredible cards and worthy of staple status in every Pauper, Peasant, and retail booster draft format I've played. They don't QUITE hold up when people around you get to, like, Pack Rat and JTMS and Tinker, but that's not really relevant here.
The ongoing card selection is SUPER powerful so long as you're not just dying on T5, which is the case in the vast majority of games.
They're miles better than the 2/1 versions, too. They're not even "creatures" in practice, just great ongoing card filtering. Making it cost 50% more for the chance to get an awful vanilla body will certainly come up on occasion when you're just dying to some Borderland Marauder, but the 1/1s are still clear picks just like people use Llanowar Elves and not Golden Hind.
And the il-Kor version even gets to pick up random equipment, auras, anthem effects, soulbond...
as said, i tried them a couple of times and they always ended horrible. powered cubes cant use them, because theyre way too slow and you dont need them in the first place. just run cantrips and treasure cruise.. or smash their face for 2 and draw cards while doing it Ninja of the Deep Hours
so staple is definitely out of question.
when it comes to slower cubes i run a discard and graveyard theme where they should shine, but theyre still wasted slots. you basically dont need card filtering in an environment were every card is useful (or to be fair, the cube designer failed) and a lot of the cubable cards have cycling itself by now.
you need something to protect you from aggro in the early game and mid to lategame you can just run real card draw.
comparing them to manaelves is wrong on many levels. but yeah, theyre basically not even creatures, they read: pay 2 mana, lose 3 life, skip a turn, discard 2, draw one.
meanwhile your face gets smashed by cc2 3/2s (where the 2/1s indeed at least trade)
actually most games against aggro are over by T5 when you lack defense. like my last tier1 draft, matches (not games) were decided after 10mins, except the grind between RB removal/discard.dec und UB draw-go. that said, i had not played my t1 for like 2 years and got too cute on some changes, because i was diluted by the t2 meta. i forgot how brutal this meta is. like just my 12 red instants equal 39 damage for 23 mana.
3/2 is the common baseline for (red) 2 drops today and Savannah Lions are also common now. the looters are unplayable (like they already were 5years ago)
I don't really know how to argue against "every card is useful" when we're both playing a game where you shuffle up a deck that's 60% spells, 40% lands and the most important factor to whether or not you'll win a game is the amount of each that you draw in your first ~12 cards (to say nothing of colored mana requirements...)
Looters are a 2-mana play that see three extra cards by T5. If you're dying on T5, it barely even matters if you're discarding your three worst cards. You're that much closer to hitting your powerful spells and the mana you need to cast them. Like, is Deep Analysis not an embrassment against aggro? Mulldrifter?
the deciding factor is either tempo or card advantage. and looters are tempoloss and card disadvantage... like, it takes you 4 turns! to see same same amount of additional cards as preordain..
they are useful in standard limited, where you mill yourself through fillers to get to your bomb and im pretty sure thats where that mindstate loot=good comes from, but in cubes you cast either a threat, acceleration or removal because thats what cubes are made of. There are no cute or non powerful cards unless you dilute it with something like looters lol, because thats definitely a card i want to discard to find something that impacts the board.
looters are nice in the lategame, were you dont want more lands or acceleration, but then again, run the 2/1s (or just card draw)
It's not fillers vs bombs (though that's ALSO true in every cube format as well), it's what's situationally useful
You can't generate tempo OR card advantage if your draw is 20% lands or 80% lands, and that happens constantly in limited magic of any type
"Threats or acceleration or removal" is exactly what I'm talking about since you ALWAYS have a preference of which of the three you want.
Hell, even WITHIN those categories there's worlds of differences which makes the card selection of looting incredibly powerful. Unless you look at Evincar's Justice in your hand, think "wow that's a powerful card", then cast it without realizing that you're dying to one 4/4 creature...
Do you have the game logs, humphreys? You have been drafting a bunch, but I'm curious to see how the looters played out as 'useless' doesn't really align with their power level historically.
xmage saves the logs i guess. also i had to adjust some decks to what the other deck are doing, so like giant tortoise is much more important to blue control than an early looter. and when turn 4 or 5 someones attack with 5 tokens and trumpet blast, youre a sad panda, because you miss that crucial 2-6 life you couldnt block.
sure, the looter might have found Electrickery, but in the end its more consistent to build a balanced deck than to rely on looting.
iO is coming from peasant and while on the one hand the early game seems even more aggressive, there probably even more powerful answers that can swing the game around if you find them. pauper is lacking those.
its an old argument, but there is a reason looter never see standard play unless they provide some additional abilities. cantrips do the same, but faster and deeper and no carddisadvantage.
Yeah but constructed =/= pauper singleton. Being able to jam x4 cantrip is a lot different than running 1 ponder/preordain and then running looters too.
Looters being quality has always been an inherent principle in lower powered limited formats, so in fear of running around in circles might be time to agree to disagree
It's not even an "old argument", it's basically universal acclaim for Looters every time they show up in a limited format (the "true" 2-drops, not more recent ones with random downside like Zephyr Scribe).
They don't really hold up to Standard play usually, but neither does Giant Tortoise, so...
edit: the "all the cards are good" idea is a particularly funny point to make in a thread that's literally called "evaluate everything", unless you've managed to find 360 staple cards to sleeve up.
but thankfully we cut back on so called staples because there is really just a small bunch of cards so universally strong that theyre good in every cube and even then they dont turn the game around. the biggest amount of cards shares the same powerlevel aka cubable. you can get almost the same redundancy as in constructed in many slots, like you could add ponder, preordain, portent, serum visions, (brainstorm), impulse, anticipate if you really want that much draw manipulation
impulse digs 5turns worth of looting at instant speed for the same cost!
that acclaim might be also just a dogma and not true in every format. you need to find a card that is impactful enough to swing the game and at the same time makes up for the loss of the looter. again, we dont have those.
either way, when looter work in your (pauper!)cube, its cool, they dont work in mine (t1 and t2) so theyre definitely not staple
I have to poke the bear:
How many Ping effects does the average cube run? Because dies to ping/removal is like saying people lose to death.
Staple being top 20% is a good parameter. But the more sets we've seen the less hard & fast cards we have because of theming, design specifications, and efficency has effectively been named (Mulldrifter, Doom Blade, Blastoderm, etc).
Control cards being Staple seems narrowminded. Some people do not see control beyond a higher costed Midrange deck. I know it is impossible, but when I wrote my articles it was to apply logic to the Aggro, Tempo, Midrange and Control structures. Ramp is Midrange and requires a cube to accomodate it as it is not a naturally occuring thing. And combo cannot exist without all else failing.
If something is a Staple of Aggro and only Aggro. Maybe we note that. Stitched Drake is backbreaking on turn 3/4 in decks of attrition but "meh" in low body count control
the 2nd toughness (in blocker mode) is a big improvement for Thrill-Kill
nah, its better against ping effects. in combat it doenst matter. 1/x are hardly a threat. but being able to also attack for 2 as well is an upside for me.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
semantics. I agree that it is a big improvement in one area (pings) and not so much another (surviving combat). The question is how much weight to assign it overall. It certainly counts for something as an extra toughness is far from cosmetic.
My cube has its quirks. But I try to support aggressive bodies in all colors based on: Single-Color mana, Power >/= cost, and evasion.
For that I argue for Thrill Kill as Staple, but also keeping Interloper and Horror too. True "balls out"/"don't look back" aggressive decks need things that can get in 2+ times over the next consecutive turns to enable Bloodlust, Ninjitsu, or other tricks.
Black being control is, imo, as outdated as Blue being Control First then any other. Control in draft for new players is a trap and veterans abuse that.
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the question is whether you see full control archetype support as a niche, because then pestilence and so on become cubable only as well.
I actually dont think its Tier1 meta when you cut control and make every color aggro, blue and black being the weakest, with a bunch of 2/1 folding to turn1 Desert, besides removing the control/midrange/aggro balance.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I finally got opaline bracer to work and its +4+4 kinda reliable in the right deck. its still really clunky, so ill keep it but its not too great. the problem is, in the fast matchups you can never cast it and in the grindy matchups it almost doesnt matter how big the creature is, as long as it sticks.
other observations
Dewdrop Spy the effect is surprisingly strong, since it lets you decide whether to keep countermana or not. and flash is always welcome in blue control.
also blue control is really good, thanks to the ghostly flicker shenenigans.
whither is really insane, makes me even consider Blight Sickle. it the closest to equipable deathtouch we got.
Bladed Pinions is listed as bad here, i even run it in tier1. card is solid allaround becomes nuts on deathtouchers. mentioned a few times before.
Horned Helm (cubable!)i ran it in my t1 for quite a while as well, since it provides the neccessary trample on bigger dudes and the +1+1 is neat as well. equip cost of 1 and the ability to move it in combat makes it much better than leonin scimitar variants that are listed borderline. im pretty sure al overlooked the +1+1, but im also sure i mentioned this card years ago before.
on the other hand i dont see a deck where i want to run Neurok Stealthsuit. its borderline at best.
Whispersilk Cloak is rated borderline btw, that card turns every creature into an unbeatable finisher. (cubable to staple)
the cc3 mana stones are bad. theyre way too slow and we have tons of cc2 options for mana fixing. scuttlemut is maybe cubable (id say borderline) because it has an interesting effect on blacks removal suite. the rest of the stuff is just bad.
Phyrexian War Beast it was great in 1997, when it could block black knight in white wheenie. ever since bounce was in the meta, the card was unplayable.
sickleslicer is quite bad as well. equip 4 is just too much. (every equip >1 is basically too much >2 unplayable)
Tumble Magnet. Borderline. Id never run it unless i have some artifact synergies going. for cc3 there are real removal options in every color.
Clay Statue lol.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I think I will put it back in my cube (was one of the originals, lol).
Regarding Bladed Pinions, you say is great but five sentences later you say equip 2 is too much... ??? (I agree is not bad though)
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Modern frame only- Common on paper only - no functional copies, no strictly-betters - no subtype-matters
helm is awesome it got replaced by Cartouche of Strength in my t1 though. games are decided quick enough that one shot trample + removal ususally is enough.
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The decks than can use double U to switch this thing around dont play many creatures or have more flexible ways to protect them. Im pretty sure the card is irrelevant pretty often.
The cloak is a totally different beast than the bracers. In powered cubes the amount of removal is insane. this turn just every creature with relevant power into a win. especially on greens 5 power guys. While with bracers they just get chumped, bounced, removed whatever. Cloak is in the top10 most broken commons easily. you equip it once and win the game.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
You're talking about Merfolk Looter and Thought Courier (and Looter il-Kor)?
They've all been incredible cards and worthy of staple status in every Pauper, Peasant, and retail booster draft format I've played. They don't QUITE hold up when people around you get to, like, Pack Rat and JTMS and Tinker, but that's not really relevant here.
The ongoing card selection is SUPER powerful so long as you're not just dying on T5, which is the case in the vast majority of games.
They're miles better than the 2/1 versions, too. They're not even "creatures" in practice, just great ongoing card filtering. Making it cost 50% more for the chance to get an awful vanilla body will certainly come up on occasion when you're just dying to some Borderland Marauder, but the 1/1s are still clear picks just like people use Llanowar Elves and not Golden Hind.
And the il-Kor version even gets to pick up random equipment, auras, anthem effects, soulbond...
so staple is definitely out of question.
when it comes to slower cubes i run a discard and graveyard theme where they should shine, but theyre still wasted slots. you basically dont need card filtering in an environment were every card is useful (or to be fair, the cube designer failed) and a lot of the cubable cards have cycling itself by now.
you need something to protect you from aggro in the early game and mid to lategame you can just run real card draw.
comparing them to manaelves is wrong on many levels. but yeah, theyre basically not even creatures, they read: pay 2 mana, lose 3 life, skip a turn, discard 2, draw one.
meanwhile your face gets smashed by cc2 3/2s (where the 2/1s indeed at least trade)
actually most games against aggro are over by T5 when you lack defense. like my last tier1 draft, matches (not games) were decided after 10mins, except the grind between RB removal/discard.dec und UB draw-go. that said, i had not played my t1 for like 2 years and got too cute on some changes, because i was diluted by the t2 meta. i forgot how brutal this meta is. like just my 12 red instants equal 39 damage for 23 mana.
3/2 is the common baseline for (red) 2 drops today and Savannah Lions are also common now. the looters are unplayable (like they already were 5years ago)
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Looters are a 2-mana play that see three extra cards by T5. If you're dying on T5, it barely even matters if you're discarding your three worst cards. You're that much closer to hitting your powerful spells and the mana you need to cast them. Like, is Deep Analysis not an embrassment against aggro? Mulldrifter?
they are useful in standard limited, where you mill yourself through fillers to get to your bomb and im pretty sure thats where that mindstate loot=good comes from, but in cubes you cast either a threat, acceleration or removal because thats what cubes are made of. There are no cute or non powerful cards unless you dilute it with something like looters lol, because thats definitely a card i want to discard to find something that impacts the board.
looters are nice in the lategame, were you dont want more lands or acceleration, but then again, run the 2/1s (or just card draw)
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
You can't generate tempo OR card advantage if your draw is 20% lands or 80% lands, and that happens constantly in limited magic of any type
"Threats or acceleration or removal" is exactly what I'm talking about since you ALWAYS have a preference of which of the three you want.
Hell, even WITHIN those categories there's worlds of differences which makes the card selection of looting incredibly powerful. Unless you look at Evincar's Justice in your hand, think "wow that's a powerful card", then cast it without realizing that you're dying to one 4/4 creature...
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sure, the looter might have found Electrickery, but in the end its more consistent to build a balanced deck than to rely on looting.
iO is coming from peasant and while on the one hand the early game seems even more aggressive, there probably even more powerful answers that can swing the game around if you find them. pauper is lacking those.
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Looters being quality has always been an inherent principle in lower powered limited formats, so in fear of running around in circles might be time to agree to disagree
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They don't really hold up to Standard play usually, but neither does Giant Tortoise, so...
edit: the "all the cards are good" idea is a particularly funny point to make in a thread that's literally called "evaluate everything", unless you've managed to find 360 staple cards to sleeve up.
impulse digs 5turns worth of looting at instant speed for the same cost!
that acclaim might be also just a dogma and not true in every format. you need to find a card that is impactful enough to swing the game and at the same time makes up for the loss of the looter. again, we dont have those.
either way, when looter work in your (pauper!)cube, its cool, they dont work in mine (t1 and t2) so theyre definitely not staple
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
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How many Ping effects does the average cube run? Because dies to ping/removal is like saying people lose to death.
Staple being top 20% is a good parameter. But the more sets we've seen the less hard & fast cards we have because of theming, design specifications, and efficency has effectively been named (Mulldrifter, Doom Blade, Blastoderm, etc).
Control cards being Staple seems narrowminded. Some people do not see control beyond a higher costed Midrange deck. I know it is impossible, but when I wrote my articles it was to apply logic to the Aggro, Tempo, Midrange and Control structures. Ramp is Midrange and requires a cube to accomodate it as it is not a naturally occuring thing. And combo cannot exist without all else failing.
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If something is a Staple of Aggro and only Aggro. Maybe we note that. Stitched Drake is backbreaking on turn 3/4 in decks of attrition but "meh" in low body count control
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