MTG Salvation

Quote from Marl Karx »

In terms of actual Cube experience, its pretty much what you'd expect. If you're a little ahead, becoming the Monarch can put you a lot ahead.

yeah, basically just this. their powerlevel is not that hard to figure you establish board control, drop the monarch and the opponent has it twice as hard to fight against your card advantage.

browins the constructed decks, youre right pyre. it seems only boros sticked to them since it can retrigger the monarch and is the mother of all grinddecks anyway. few month ago you would see more decks running them at least in the sb
that said, some of the shenenigans can also be used in paupercubes.

Quote from Marl Karx »

What I meant about Online Onlys is that since some people exclude them their raw counts probably won't correspond to their ratings in cases where they are cubeable or even staple (say, Elephant Guide).

Ah, gotcha. The only Staple cards that are online only are:

• Battle Screech
• Beetleback Chief
• Chainer's Edict
• Predatory Nightstalker

I've updated my earlier post.

Quote from Marl Karx »

When I did a personal project a few years ago similar to think I just looked in recent threads and noted who had posted. Almost everybody links to their cube tutor so it is pretty straightforward.

I had a look at recent posts from 2018 and found:

• Zephyr Scarlet http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/11192 is explicitly powered
• Prince_Reyson http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/648 from Al's list looks powered, but isn't explicit
• MonkRealist http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/7023 looks a bit less powered, but isn't explicit either way (Tar Pit Warrior, Lim-Dûl's High Guard, Golgari Brownscale, Shambling Shell, Frantic Search, etc.)

I'll update my above post with these cubes.

I don't want to include cubes with more than 360 cards, as I'm trying to answer "which cards are staple in 360 cubes?". For example, if I analyzed twenty 450 cubes and five 360 cubes, I'd likely get a lot of cards that are staple in 450 but not in 360.

Thanks for going deeper on this. In the past, regular cubes had dedicated number-crunching people who could set this up as its own thread with mod support. Usually they solicited participation from forum members first - that might help if you're casting about for more 360 cubes. There's several cubers like Usman, Marl or Izor who probably have 360s lying around somewhere, plus possible lurkers who could donate their lists to such a project

EDIT: In the interest of discussion, there were some other interesting results I noticed:

Beetleform Mage was one of only two gold cards that saw near-universal adoption. It's a way to sneak Air Elemental into common cubes, so it makes sense. You'll need some pretty strong stuff out of Ravnica Allegiance to dethrone it, I think.
Cartouche of Strength's popularity makes me wonder again why Ambuscade isn't included more. It's not a question of mana cost. Is the addition of an aura that much of an improvement over instant speed?
Why is Celestial Flare so popular at 75% adoption? It's a CC cost instant, which makes it harder to cast - not a huge deal for noncreature spells since you don't need this to come out on curve, but still doesn't offer much for the increase in difficulty vs, say, Gideon's Reproach. There aren't that many big hexproof creatures running around, and white already has an excellent removal suite without it.
I can't see the interest in Striped Riverwinder. You're almost never going to actually cast it. And the kind of control deck that would want this finisher probably can't afford to cycle it away and lose one of its few threats.
Lastly, I noticed a lot of Kujar Seedsculptor running around in the cubes here. Can someone explain the card's value to me? As far as I know, it was mostly ignored on release - seems more or less on par with Ironshell Beetle.

Spined Thopter - I cut this card recently. Not because it was bad, although it's not great either. It's under par compared to blue and white's flyers. I cut it to help reinforce some of Magic's color themes. Green gets the biggest creatures. White gets the most keywords (call it martial prowess or something). Red gets the fastest creatures. And blue gets the most flyers. Haven't considered black yet, but black might be a catch-all, do-a-bit-of-everything-for-a-price to help reinforce the price of power thing it usually runs with.

I realized that I don't really want or need this card to help shore up a perceived weakness in green or red decks, for example, because I'm OK with those decks being really really good at what they do (being the biggest gorilla on the battlefield, and being the most aggressive respectively). Am I the only one who manages their cube somewhat along these lines?

Quote from PyreDream »

Thanks for going deeper on this. In the past, regular cubes had dedicated number-crunching people who could set this up as its own thread with mod support. Usually they solicited participation from forum members first - that might help if you're casting about for more 360 cubes. There's several cubers like Usman, Marl or Izor who probably have 360s lying around somewhere, plus possible lurkers who could donate their lists to such a project

Thanks I don't think I'll go deeper on this project, as I'm mainly using these cubes to inform my own cube, and 8 is about enough. I already have Usman's cube; Izor's cube isn't available in text format; and since Marl has responded to my earlier posts, I assume he would have shared his cube

Quote from mallory496 »

Quote from PyreDream »

Thanks for going deeper on this. In the past, regular cubes had dedicated number-crunching people who could set this up as its own thread with mod support. Usually they solicited participation from forum members first - that might help if you're casting about for more 360 cubes. There's several cubers like Usman, Marl or Izor who probably have 360s lying around somewhere, plus possible lurkers who could donate their lists to such a project

Thanks I don't think I'll go deeper on this project, as I'm mainly using these cubes to inform my own cube, and 8 is about enough. I already have Usman's cube; Izor's cube isn't available in text format; and since Marl has responded to my earlier posts, I assume he would have shared his cube

We're way too eclectic to have a set cube or even stick to cube as a format. I mostly like to play around with cube design as an exercise.

Quote from PyreDream »

lines?

Beware that this is a striclty power/staple oriented discussion, so while it makes sense to refine the colorwheel for gameplay reasons, the cube doesnt follow stricly powerlevel then.

With that said, im even more surprised you are such a big fan of Ambushcade, because direct removal is what green does worst. It actually doesnt really belong to the color historically. About your question, green doesnt want to be reactive, it want to be proactive and the cartouche does this. Its not only a decent removal, you can just play it to grant trample or support the aura archetype. Its definitely the much better card. And at CC3 and with a big enough creaute needed, Ambush isnt even a reliable removal.

Celestial Flare might indeed be a little overrated, but its one of the few spells that can kill hexproof guys, so its nice to have around. Also creature with bigger toughness than 5 are not that uncommon. Much lategames stuff is 4/5 or 5/5

The Riverwinder is one of those cards where you have to look the card the other way around. Its man mode is not the creature, but a cantrip that can turn into a creature later and meanwhile enable some gy shenenigans. Its pretty good in a deck that also wants a benthic giant, so it gets a little more consistent.

Dont know why ppl run the Seedsculptor. Actually it was received quite well in the spoilerseason back then. Its definitely much better than the beetle, a 2/3 for 2 is above curve.

With that said, im even more surprised you are such a big fan of Ambushcade, because direct removal is what green does worst. It actually doesnt really belong to the color historically. About your question, green doesnt want to be reactive, it want to be proactive and the cartouche does this. Its not only a decent removal, you can just play it to grant trample or support the aura archetype. Its definitely the much better card. And at CC3 and with a big enough creaute needed, Ambush isnt even a reliable removal.

I agree with you but in my experience if you have a Cube grouper larger than two or three like-minded people there are going to some players who want/expect green to dabble in removal.

Celestial Flare might indeed be a little overrated, but its one of the few spells that can kill hexproof guys, so its nice to have around. Also creature with bigger toughness than 5 are not that uncommon. Much lategames stuff is 4/5 or 5/5

I'm not entirely sure how good Celestial Flare is but if you have powered cube, hexproof gets old REALLY fast and people are going to demand answers to it or just agitate for getting rid of it entirely.

Dont know why ppl run the Seedsculptor. Actually it was received quite well in the spoilerseason back then. Its definitely much better than the beetle, a 2/3 for 2 is above curve.

There are always going to be players who look for above curve defensive bodies. Part of why I think it is too hard to maintain a powered cube is that outside of tournaments (and even then..) most people would rather cater to personal preferences. For example, I have at least one player who won't play unless there are enough Walls available. I don't know of anyone who thinks Ironshell Beetle is good though in Cube though. But some players definitely do like the +/1/+1 counters theme so even the Beetle probably isn't outlandish.

Quote from Humphrey »

Quote from PyreDream »

lines?

stuff?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not sacrificing power for flavor or mechanics. I'm just applying a secondary filter after the powerlevel filter to help in decision-making.

It's a common misconception that larger cubes suffer from lower power level. That hasn't been true for some years now. I look at 360 lists and see monocolor sections of 40 or 50 cards that could easily be expanded by 20 or so cards each, without suffering an appreciable drop in power level. If you were to actually go and count the number of cubeables in the Evaluate Everything project, you'd find that the number of cubeables far exceeds the limits of a 360 cube, even accounting for misevaluations. There is a significant luxury of choice that seems to have crept in at common. One of the main benefits of smaller cubes will always be the consistency and strength of the archetypes you choose to include, but even that distinction is fading as more and more functional replacements appear. That's where the secondary filter of "how does this play to the color's strengths?" comes into play.

Ambuscade - call me a fan of discussing marginal cards. It wouldn't be much of a discussion if we all agreed where this or that spell fell on the scale, would it? This spell gives green some play at instant speed, where an aura like Cartouche might open you up to the good old 2-for-1. I don't run nearly as much hexproof as some - I prefer to relegate it to finishers like Benthic Giant /Cold-Water Snapper - so Cartouche might not be the guaranteed value you think it is.

Celestial Flare - I can sort of see the appeal if hexproof is an issue, but it seems a bit corner case when cubes are littered with so many cheap, efficient creatures and token generators. I'm still not certain it's much better than Reproach.

Striped Riverwinder - Yeah, I expected a lot of its value came from the one mana cantrip. It's interesting how its costs were balanced vs the other cycling fatties (Granitic Titan / Rampaging Hippo / Greater Sandwurm) which mostly have more castable fronts but more expensive cycle costs.

Kujar Seedsculptor - will likely make my shortlist for possible aggro inclusions, alongside Nettle Sentinel/ Rhonas's Stalwart. It does have a semi-haste ability when passing its +1/+1 counter on to ready beaters, with an extra toughness to help fight on the ground. Like Marl said, I'm also a fan of above-curve stats, although I don't think the 1C 2/3 vanilla statline is particularly relevant at common with Centaur Courser at 2C (I don't see the hype for Shambling Ghoul either, but I am a fan of Extremely Slow Zombie )

hehe, too bad my playgroup fell apart with the years. some left town, others lost interest or dont have time because of family. so i almost exclusively play on xmage now, so my players are bound to my balances. some give good feedback, nobody complained about greens (almost) lack of removalmthough. i run cartouche, lignify and snakeform right now. but also a bunch of deathtouch creatures, which help against hexproof, fit the color better and overall do a good if not better job as plain removal. green basically ignores what the opponent does and smash faces.

but yeah, the t1 lost some appeal for me over the years as well. partly because i played it so much, but also because the decks are so streamlined. when i created the cube i wanted legacy-like meta and thats kinda what it is, highly competitive, but lost a lot of limiteds durdly and interactive characteristic. thats why i like the t2 better, it has way more cute interactions than just brutal power and it runs different cards that you would see in constructed.
that said, i mentioned it earlier, paupercubes in general play less diversified than vintagecubes and get old rather quick.
So both cubes mixed together becoming a 720 card cube is the best experience. because you wont see the same decks and cards over and over again and it makes drafting for the cognizant cuber more interesting/random. i basically just stayed 360 in paper, because its so much hassle with shuffling, sleeving, maintaining and carrying 720 cards around. (but also twice the fun balancing them) but if youre not as lazy like me, i definitely recommend going 720 or 540 at least.

EDIT:
posted at the same time, eh.
Ambuscade also opens yourself for 2:1s

Quote from Humphrey »

Quote from PyreDream »

lines?

Beware that this is a striclty power/staple oriented discussion, so while it makes sense to refine the colorwheel for gameplay reasons, the cube doesnt follow stricly powerlevel then.

With that said, im even more surprised you are such a big fan of Ambushcade, because direct removal is what green does worst. It actually doesnt really belong to the color historically. About your question, green doesnt want to be reactive, it want to be proactive and the cartouche does this. Its not only a decent removal, you can just play it to grant trample or support the aura archetype. Its definitely the much better card. And at CC3 and with a big enough creaute needed, Ambush isnt even a reliable removal.

Celestial Flare might indeed be a little overrated, but its one of the few spells that can kill hexproof guys, so its nice to have around. Also creature with bigger toughness than 5 are not that uncommon. Much lategames stuff is 4/5 or 5/5

The Riverwinder is one of those cards where you have to look the card the other way around. Its man mode is not the creature, but a cantrip that can turn into a creature later and meanwhile enable some gy shenenigans. Its pretty good in a deck that also wants a benthic giant, so it gets a little more consistent.

Dont know why ppl run the Seedsculptor. Actually it was received quite well in the spoilerseason back then. Its definitely much better than the beetle, a 2/3 for 2 is above curve.

Why not Utopia Vow as a green pacifism?

I used to have Utopia Vow in my cube, but it ended up not being played in the decks. The reason being, that green has two better paths than playing green removal:

- Ignoring the enemy creatures altogether, and attack with its better creatures.
- Playing the better removal in other colors, as most decks will be two colored anyway.

Quote from Merovingiann »

I used to have Utopia Vow in my cube, but it ended up not being played in the decks. The reason being, that green has more than two better paths than playing green removal:

- Ignoring the enemy creatures altogether, and attack with its better creatures.
- Playing the better removal in other colors, as most decks will be two colored anyway.

-play creatures that act as pseudo removal like Ambush Viper or Simian Grunts
-play combat tricks

Utopia has the bad downside that it not only ramps, but also colorfixes your opponents. Especially in the early turns that can be neckbreaking. I run Lignify which is more or less acceptable as removal for midrange decks while also adds to the small aura theme im running. But its more or les a flexslot thats likely to get replaced. Id like to see a creature that fights ETB in common.

It looks like Al's account was deleted, which deleted all his posts here. I posted the original ratings and reviews in this thread. (One of my posts with the remaining reviews is still marked as spam, but it seems like the mods eventually check such posts and unmark them as spam, so hopefully it will be visible soon.) Anyhow, you can look there for the original ratings and reviews.

If anyone (or multiple people) wants to take responsibility for this project, I can give you edit access to the spreadsheet that I made with all the ratings and reviews (or you can make a copy). I'm not interested in taking responsibility – just sharing in case it helps anyone who does.

Played in the prerelease over the weekend and got bored at work so I took a look at anything I found interesting. Trying to be a bit more critical and comparing new cards to existing assessments. Feel free to make corrections to any of these.

• Aeromunculous - Cubable - 2/3 Flying for 3 that can become a 3/4 on the next turn. 1 less power than Drakewing Krasis but 2 more toughness. Requires a larger investment than Beetleform Mage but is permenant and nearly as big - Also comes with flying.
• Faerie Duelist - Cubable - 1/2 Flying for 2 that gives a creature -2/-0 UEoT. Not especially aggressive but kills up to 3/1's and gives you a chump blocker or blocks 1/1's for days.
• Final Payment - Borderline - Unrestricted creature removal with a 5 life or sac a creature drawback. Could be abused if you have heavy lifelink support, token generation, or creatures with afterlife?
• Frenzied Arynx - Cubable/Staple? - Strictly better Rhox Brute. Can be a 3/3 Haste Trample or 4/4 Trample for 4. Overpriced firebreathing as an extra bonus.
• Rubblebelt Recluse - Cubable/Borderline - 6/5 for 5. Strictly better than Lathnu Sailback. Attacks each turn but probably should anyways.
• Lawmage's Binding - Cubable - Harder to cast Arrest with Flash
• Ill-Gotten Inheritance - Cubable? - Rediculous in 2HG but a 2 life swing on each of your turns seems ok unless it gets removed. 8 Life swing for 5 mana to finish off the game if needed.
• Grasping Thrull - Cubable/Borderline? - 3/3 Flying for 5 that drains opponents for 3 and gains you 3. Better if you plan to do multiplayer. Orzhov has a lot of good staples so this might not be playable, despite the beefy evasive body.
• Savage Smash - Borderline - Prey upon with +2/+2 stapled onto it for 3CMC. Seems ok but sorcery speed holds it back and pit fight costs 2 less and only 1 colored mana.
• Titanic Brawl - Cubable - Prey Upon at instant speed at it's best and Pounce at it's worst.
• Undercity's Embrace - Borderline/Bad - Overcosted Diabolic Edict with possible life gain stapled on. Not terrible but with the amount of quality black removal, it doesn't do anything special.
• Vizkopa Vampire - Borderline - 3/1 Lifelink for 3 is ok but like Grasping Thrull, I think there is too much competition in Orzhov to make this guy playable. Lots of cards that can easily kill X/1's as well.
• Wrecking Beast - Cubable/Borderline - a 6/6 Haste Trample or 7/7 Trample for 7CMC are both reasonable. Compares closest to Duskdale Wurm in green (Borderline) and can't find a real close comparison for the haste option.

Id say decrease everything by one rating and we can agree ;D

I would decrease everything by one, too, except for Aeromunculus, Frenzied Arynx, and Lawmage's Binding.

Also,

Applied Biomancy is at least borderline.
Azorius Knight-Arbiter is borderline.
Blade Juggler is Borderline.
Burning-Tree Vandal is Cubable.
Chillbringer is borderline or cubable.
Humongulus is borderline or cubable.
Plague wight is borderline.
Rampaging Redhorn is cubable.
Sage's Row Savant is borderline.
Sauroform Hybrid is borderline.
Skewer the critics is cubable.
Undercity Scavenger is borderline/cubable.

Blade Juggler seems a sleeper here, but lets see ^^

I would say Wrecking Beast is also cubeable.

I put this in the general discussion thread and instantly realized that I should just ask about it here: Why is Logic Knot so low again? It's rated as Bad with no more explanation than Spell Blast, one of the worst counters ever printed because it is actually impossible to cast it and come out ahead on mana, and that just... Doesn't feel right. I keep on thinking of it when I think of cards to try in Cube, and I remember cutting it years ago, so I know that there are good reasons for it. I'm not really challenging the rating so much as I want to spell out the reason that this "fixed" Counterspell, a staple of Modern Masters set and an occasional Modern playable, is so bad for us.

UU is a drawback already and the card scales with the game in a bad way, the more cards are in your gy the more likely your opponent can pay for it. Why its played in modern? Fetchlands

Ah, yep, I can definitely see the argument that the UU cost means that there's no stage of the game where the card is particularly good. My brain still keeps trying to convince me that it's closer to Borderline than Bad, but this explanation satisfies me. Thank you!

its probably on the edge of borderline, but the fact that there are so many better counterspells around pushes it to bad

Now, that MTG Salvation will be shutdown soon, are there any plans to save this Project somewhere?

Quote from NoobinCube »

Now, that MTG Salvation will be shutdown soon, are there any plans to save this Project somewhere?

I had made a backup here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13HntsRHrC5Ubl6_E0FG_pZlD3lzaafwsINA1E1bLf6Q/edit#gid=0

I think anyone can make a copy of that spreadsheet if they want.