So I'm making a semi-return to cubing and the forum after a long hiatus and quasi-retirement. My big concern is how well I've well assembled my old format. I consider this puppy my pride and joy as far as my cubes go, though I admit that it's not for everyone.
The basic idea is a cube built through the lens of Modern legality. Not necessarily Modern tournament archetypes, but certainly Modern legal (and in many cases Modern playable) cards. Notably, mine is quite possibly the only cube labeled Modern that actually follows the Banlist AND excludes Commander/Planechase/Conspiracy exclusives.
I'm looking for any and all advice, particularly with regard to improving the monocolor sections. Let me have it!
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
The card quality in your cube looks high, with some interesting and unique cards, good aggro support, and only a few cards that look like outright clunkers to me (Duskhunter Bat, Liliana of the Dark Realms, Faith's Shield, Arrest), but maybe you're going for a slightly lower power level, and if so I get it.
You're running a really high percentage of multicolor cards with not only 8 in each guild, but a few more that are really functional gold cards like Loam Lion and Sejiri Merfolk. Don't you find that a lot of those end up marooned in sideboards? I like 4 per guild with a bit of wiggle room for quality hybrids, and I still wind up with a lot of unplayed gold cards. At the same time, you're a bit short on mana-fixing lands with what looks like 3 cycles (fetches, shocks, and checks). At your size I'd run 4, the manland duals and pain lands are probably the best modern legal duals you're not running right now, and Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds are great 5 color fixers you're not running. The lack of fixing looks like it might be particularly rough not only because of your high gold cards, but also come of the very color intensive cards you're running that might not be playable outside of a mono-color deck (ex. Arcangel of Tithes, Erebos' Titan, Phyrexian Obliterator). I tried running Archangel of Tithes, Angel of Jubilation, Necropotence, and Pox for quite a while and they saw next to no play because of the color requirement. It's a shame, because the power level of all of them is so high, but it's too hard to make them work IMHO.
Hope that helps.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
This is what I'm looking for. I definitely hear you here. The black section is tough in general because its card quality isn't consistent across all the types, CMCs and eras. I feel like the bad is a good aggro roleplayer/placeholder, in the same vein as Stormblood Berserker in red. Lili's a placeholder for sure. It's between her and Sorin Markov, and I erred on the sides of castability and card advantage.
In white, the card quality is a lot higher and more consistent, so I definitely want to keep that section free of duds and pet cards. I like Faith's Shield for it's ability to act as a fog for one's walker's, but I'm open to cutting it if the consensus is against it. Arrest and Prison Term strike me as comparable to Journey to Nowhere, minus the possibility for etb abuse or backfiring. I could be swayed to tosh them though.
You're running a really high percentage of multicolor cards with not only 8 in each guild, but a few more that are really functional gold cards like Loam Lion and Sejiri Merfolk.
This is partly laziness, partly compromise. I was running with imbalanced guilds for ages, and ultimately decided that I needed to create a universal max for all of them. I settled on 8 because that was the happiest medium between most of them (plus I'm not strong enough to make deeper cuts to Selesnya :frown:).
The mono-colored "cares about off-color lands" guys have always been tough. I err on putting them in mono since I feel like they're at least partially playable outside their guild proper, plus few decks are really mono anyway. Otherwise, I go down a rabbit hole where Wild Nacatl and Woodland Wanderer become the strangest tricolor and 4-color cards ever, respectively.
Don't you find that a lot of those end up marooned in sideboards?
If people draft Zoo cards without playing them, that's a personal problem. You might have a point with the card cards, however.
At the same time, you're a bit short on mana-fixing lands with what looks like 3 cycles (fetches, shocks, and checks). At your size I'd run 4, the manland duals and pain lands are probably the best modern legal duals you're not running right now
I go back and forth on them. What I really want as my fourth cycle, ideally are the full 10 Tango Lands (whenever WotC gets around to making the other 5). In the maintime, whatever I run in that slot would be placeholders. I also try to discourage greedy rainbow decks in limited, and reducing the fixing usually helps in that regard. I may try swapping out 1 Guild card each for a painland, though. (Again, I'm receptive.)
No offense, but I really have to strongly disagree here. These guys are slow and, IMHO, strictly for budget formats and retail drafting. A cube should have better fixing options than something that can only bring in tapped basics.
The lack of fixing looks like it might be particularly rough not only because of your high gold cards, but also come of the very color intensive cards you're running that might not be playable outside of a mono-color deck (ex. Arcangel of Tithes, Erebos' Titan, Phyrexian Obliterator).
This is also a fair point and something I've struggled with.
This is what I'm looking for. I definitely hear you here. The black section is tough in general because its card quality isn't consistent across all the types, CMCs and eras. I feel like the bad is a good aggro roleplayer/placeholder, in the same vein as Stormblood Berserker in red.
Black aggro 2-drops are pretty shallow, but I think you do have better options available. I've been pretty happy with Oona's Prowler and Pack Rat since they double as discard outlets and the new Heir of Falkenrath looks pretty promising for the same reason. Silumgar Assassin has also been solid, and you could do worse than Blood-chin Rager. Inkfathom Infiltrator might also be worth considering.
Lili's a placeholder for sure. It's between her and Sorin Markov, and I erred on the sides of castability and card advantage.
Are you holding yourself to a rule to run exactly 3 planeswalkers in each color for some reason? You're not really playing to each color's strengths if you do. White has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to quality planeswalkers, while black and red got the short end of the stick. I'd run Liliana, Heretical Healer over Sorin Markov or Liliana of the Dark Realms, or cut it for something else entirely.
Arrest and Prison Term strike me as comparable to Journey to Nowhere, minus the possibility for etb abuse or backfiring. I could be swayed to tosh them though.
Costing a full mana more makes them a lot worse, and the prospect the creature you've "removed" with them getting bounced and replayed or sacrificed for value makes them way riskier than O-ring style effects. They're great in retail-limited power level environments, but that's about it.
The mono-colored "cares about off-color lands" guys have always been tough. I err on putting them in mono since I feel like they're at least partially playable outside their guild proper, plus few decks are really mono anyway.
Except these really aren't even partially playable unless your cube is of a power level where Goblin Piker and Mons Goblin Raiders are up to snuff. Are your players hard up enough for playables that they're actually running these off-color?
Otherwise, I go down a rabbit hole where Wild Nacatl and Woodland Wanderer become the strangest tricolor and 4-color cards ever, respectively.
I don't run Wild Nacatl or the rest of the Naya Zoo because I don't support green aggro (but many do), but since it's kind of a one-off, it's not that big of a deal to run it in your green section. However, some players run it as a tri-color card, and they only run one for each three color combination. Woodland Wanderer can work in any combination involving green, and even in a 2-color deck a 4/4 vigilant trampler ain't bad.
If people draft Zoo cards without playing them, that's a personal problem.
If your players are drafting Zoo cards that they don't play, it's because there wasn't a playable card for the deck they wanted to build in the pack. And if they're desperate enough to play Loam Lion with no Forests or Sunblade Elf with no Plains or white mana source in their decks, imagine how much happier would they have been if they had a Dryad Militant in their draft pool instead.
What I really want as my fourth cycle, ideally are the full 10 Tango Lands (whenever WotC gets around to making the other 5).
It's frustrating how many more options there are for allied fixing than enemy fixing, especially since ABU duals fit outside of your design parameters. Scars Duals and Tango lands seem fine, but they'll only fix half your color combinations. Even still, I think pain lands and manlands are better, and now they're available for every color combination. I'd probably run them over Scars lands or Tango lands, but I can see why you'd want Tangos since they work so nicely with fetches. Maybe run enemy manlands or pain lands? Enemy pain lands worked great in my cube until we got enemy manlands. They also fix for C if that matters to you.
I also try to discourage greedy rainbow decks in limited, and reducing the fixing usually helps in that regard.
I'm not sure what you have against that, 3+ color decks are pretty popular with the guys I play with. When I play against them, I often punish them for it by running more consistent 1-2 color aggro decks, but I want my cube drafts to be an environment with as many interesting options as possible. Quality mana fixing helps make this happen. Furthermore, keep in mind that your players are only going to be playing 22-24 spells out of the 45 cards that they draft. Offering enough lands give your players more live draft picks that won't be marooned in their sideboards.
On the subject of mana fixing and cube, I strongly encourage you to read wtwlf123's article on mana fixing and color requirements. From the color intensive cards you're running in your cube as well as the lower ratio of mana fixing lands in your cube, I think you are probably underestimating the likelihood of color screw being a factor in cube games. It's an easy mistake to make because color-intensive cards tend to be more powerful, and drafting lands doesn't seem inherently exciting, but too much of one and not enough of the other leads to frustrating games where players just can't cast the cards in their hands. That's no fun for anyone.
No offense, but I really have to strongly disagree here. These guys [Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse] are slow and, IMHO, strictly for budget formats and retail drafting. A cube should have better fixing options than something that can only bring in tapped basics.
No offense taken, but I think you're undervaluing how strong it is to be able to fetch for the basic of your choice even if it comes into play tapped. That's worth playing for any deck running 3+ colors. Plus, 5 color fixing options are pretty limited in the history of Magic, and your design restrictions preclude you from running Gemstone Mine and Undiscovered Paradise. I'm not alone on this, either, this forum voted Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse as the #17 land in the last Power Rankings, over Undiscovered Paradise and the check lands.
It does! Much appreciated. Thanks!
You're quite welcome! I'm giving you a lot of criticism, but I want you to know that it's coming from wanting to help you and your friends enjoy the Cadillac of Magic formats as much as humanly possible. You mentioned that you've been playing this cube for quite a while, and if you and your friends have been enjoying it, you've definitely been doing a lot right as well. Happy cubing!
Are you holding yourself to a rule to run exactly 3 planeswalkers in each color for some reason? You're not really playing to each color's strengths if you do. White has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to quality planeswalkers, while black and red got the short end of the stick.
I am, and I know all too well of what you speak. But including an unbalanced number of 'walkers just feels wrong, especially given my strident attempts to balance the colors in all other aspects. I certainly don't see "'walkers are a white thing" going over well, despite the long understood concepts of "artifacts are a blue thing, creatures/lands are a green thing, etc."
Costing a full mana more makes them a lot worse, and the prospect the creature you've "removed" with them getting bounced and replayed or sacrificed for value makes them way riskier than O-ring style effects. They're great in retail-limited power level environments, but that's about it.
Fair enough. I've pulled them out in favor of Faith's Fetters and Temporal Isolation.
Except these really aren't even partially playable unless your cube is of a power level where Goblin Piker and Mons Goblin Raiders are up to snuff. Are your players hard up enough for playables that they're actually running these off-color?
Ha. I see your point, but I guess I would come back with this: A few pseudo multicolored cards in the mono sections aren't gonna kill anyone's margins. If anything's hurting the playables ratio, it's the lack of fixing (since corrected).
I'm not sure what you have against that, 3+ color decks are pretty popular with the guys I play with. When I play against them, I often punish them for it by running more consistent 1-2 color aggro decks, but I want my cube drafts to be an environment with as many interesting options as possible.
I feel the drafting style that fuels Rainbow decks is usually counter-intuitive, fun-sucking and runs afoul of the way formats were intended to function. I know that's a tad wordy and severe, but it's been a recurrent issue during both cube and retail drafts. In a nutshell: Whilst the average player has the potential of cutting off one specific color combo, the Rainbow player is usually cutting the entire table. That's pretty toxic, IMO. But anyway...
No offense taken, but I think you're undervaluing how strong it is to be able to fetch for the basic of your choice even if it comes into play tapped. That's worth playing for any deck running 3+ colors.
(Emphasis mine)
Which I'm not exactly trying to encourage.
your design restrictions preclude you from running Gemstone Mine
You're actually wrong there, thanks to Time Spiral (my favorite set/block). Just sayin'
You're quite welcome! I'm giving you a lot of criticism, but I want you to know that it's coming from wanting to help you and your friends enjoy the Cadillac of Magic formats as much as humanly possible. You mentioned that you've been playing this cube for quite a while, and if you and your friends have been enjoying it, you've definitely been doing a lot right as well. Happy cubing!
Understood. And if I push back, it's only to better understand and appreciate the advice. Thanks again.
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
I am, and I know all too well of what you speak. But including an unbalanced number of 'walkers just feels wrong, especially given my strident attempts to balance the colors in all other aspects. I certainly don't see "'walkers are a white thing" going over well, despite the long understood concepts of "artifacts are a blue thing, creatures/lands are a green thing, etc."
I run 5 white walkers, 3 in green, 2 in red and blue, and only Liliana of the Veil in black and I've never heard a complaint about that imbalance, probably because whatever I'm running instead is solid. I don't blame you if you want to cap your walkers in each color, but running bad planeswalkers that are worse than other kinds of spells just to fill a quota probably isn't much fun for anyone.
Ha. I see your point, but I guess I would come back with this: A few pseudo multicolored cards in the mono sections aren't gonna kill anyone's margins.
It's about opportunity cost. Each of those slots could be filled with a solid playable that could go into any deck running that color. Better yet, you could cut them all to make room for more colorless cards, which you have very few of and are the most versatile cards of all. Wurmcoil Engine is your only true colorless creature, and there are a lot more great artifacts you guys are missing out on.
I feel the drafting style that fuels Rainbow decks is usually counter-intuitive, fun-sucking and runs afoul of the way formats were intended to function. I know that's a tad wordy and severe, but it's been a recurrent issue during both cube and retail drafts. In a nutshell: Whilst the average player has the potential of cutting off one specific color combo, the Rainbow player is usually cutting the entire table. That's pretty toxic, IMO. But anyway...
It's our cube, and you're crafting the environment that you think you and your friends will enjoy the most, but I'm a bit surprised by your strong feelings on the matter. 5c goodstuff isn't my favorite deck to draft either, but I have players who absolutely love to do that, and no one's ever starved for playables during my cube drafts because of them. If you have enough mana fixing and easy to cast versatile spells, you can support a lot of different play styles and everybody wins. It's all a constant balancing act, but the key to maxing out on the numbers of archetypes you support is to try to have each card be as versatile as possible. This also makes interesting decisions during the entire draft, even when you're getting down to the last few cards in each pack.
I also don't see 5c goodstuff decks dominating my drafts either. They just aren't consistent enough to be top tier, and since you're not running ABU duals, they're going to be even less consistent in your cube than they'd be in mine.
If you really don't want to see 3+ color decks, though, I'm surprised you're running so many multicolored cards because those also encourage splashes.
You're actually wrong there [re: Gemstone Mine], thanks to Time Spiral (my favorite set/block). Just sayin'
You are correct, sir. I don't play modern. I recommend Gemstone mine, too then. It's fantastic aggro fixing, I jam that in any 2-color aggro deck.
Understood. And if I push back, it's only to better understand and appreciate the advice. Thanks again.
It's all good.
I'd also like to invite you to participate in the "Draft the Above Person's Cube" thread. It's a really fun way to check out other people's cubes, see what kinds of decks people link to draft in yours, and collect helpful data on which cards are and aren't popular picks from your cube. You'll see all different styles and power levels of cubes there, and you'll probably pick up some helpful feedback along the way from the people who draft your cube.
It's about opportunity cost. Each of those slots could be filled with a solid playable that could go into any deck running that color. Better yet, you could cut them all to make room for more colorless cards, which you have very few of and are the most versatile cards of all. Wurmcoil Engine is your only true colorless creature, and there are a lot more great artifacts you guys are missing out on.
I see your point. Praytell, what sort of artifacts which you suggest? I'd be pleasantly surprised, albeit a tad gobsmacked, if I was missing something painfully obvious.
If you really don't want to see 3+ color decks, though, I'm surprised you're running so many multicolored cards because those also encourage splashes.
You've got me there, for sure. I took your advice and retooled the sections again. I had to allow some unbalance amongst the gold cards again, but I've definitely trimmed the fat.
I'd also like to invite you to participate in the "Draft the Above Person's Cube" thread. It's a really fun way to check out other people's cubes, see what kinds of decks people link to draft in yours, and collect helpful data on which cards are and aren't popular picks from your cube. You'll see all different styles and power levels of cubes there, and you'll probably pick up some helpful feedback along the way from the people who draft your cube.
Looks promising. That thread was largely stagnant/dead when I last used this site actively, but I'll definitely check it out now.
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
...there are a lot more great artifacts you guys are missing out on.
Praytell, what sort of artifacts which you suggest? I'd be pleasantly surprised, albeit a tad gobsmacked, if I was missing something painfully obvious.
I think there are a lot of modern legal artifacts that are painfully absent from the list. As are several great lands. Just my $0.02.
Banned. I know, I know. "Ban lists are unnecessary/arbitrary/stupid." (I'm not trying to speak for you, just acknowledging a common retort that I imagine we've all heard/read/used at one time.)
Your colorless section is definitely more diverse than mine. I wish I had more room for more funky stuff like this, but it's pretty tight. I'll look into some of the bodies, but most won't fly. I fear my playgroup would riot if I threw a lot of these in. I can already hear the cries of "pet card," "glorified bauble," "bad ramp," etc.
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Your colorless section is definitely more diverse than mine. I wish I had more room for more funky stuff like this, but it's pretty tight. I'll look into some of the bodies, but most won't fly. I fear my playgroup would riot if I threw a lot of these in. I can already hear the cries of "pet card," "glorified bauble," "bad ramp," etc.
You've got to be joking. Those cards are ALL dramatically better than a huge list of cards in your cube.
I noticed you were pretty meh on this guy here. Has something changed, or do you really think my format is that much weaker than the average, including yours? (I wouldn't take offense if you do. I'm just curious.)
Lodestone Golem
I keep going back and forth on this guy. I'll probably have the bite the bullet and just put him in soon.
Solemn Simulacrum
Turn 4+ ramp has never sat right with me. The value is there, I just don't care for the design/effect.
Triskelion
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
These don't win the game. I really feel like 6+ mana should be reserved for cards that win the game, preferably 'walkers.
Mind Stone
Definite maybe.
Ratchet Bomb
In the immortal words of Char Aznable: "too slow." Plus it just took a hit with the new DFC ruling.
Engineered Explosives
Similar problems as the bomb, compounded by being generally worse than a proper boardwipe (scaled or unscaled).
City of Brass
Evolving Wilds
Gemstone Mine
Mana Confluence
Terramorphic Expanse
I MIGHT come around on the Mine, though I honestly feel like all of these fall into the same unsavory category of "fixing that punishes people for wanting fixing." I'd much rather have narrower fixing with limited/temporary drawbacks than broader fixing with big, permanent drawbacks. The latter serves my (cube management) purposes better and hopefully discourages rainbow drafting. The former only pays lip service to my format goals whilst actually encouraging the type of decks I'd rather not see.
Reflecting Pool
Really?
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Your colorless section is definitely more diverse than mine. I wish I had more room for more funky stuff like this, but it's pretty tight. I'll look into some of the bodies, but most won't fly. I fear my playgroup would riot if I threw a lot of these in. I can already hear the cries of "pet card," "glorified bauble," "bad ramp," etc.
Those cards mentioned aren't really funky, and here's why:
Coalition Relic: 3-mana colorless ramper that not only fixes your colors, but can conditionally ramp you an additional color of your choice. You're essentially jumping from 3 to 5/6 mana by turns 3-to-4, which is a crazy leap. Coalition Relic is a top pick and has been one since the beginning of my cubing days. It not only goes into any deck that wants to ramp and use their mana, but works exceedingly well in those decks if they are 2+ colors.
Hedron Archive: While a slower card than Thran Dynamo, 2 mana is still nothing to sniff at, and Archive gives you the bonus of being a huge cash-in when you no longer need the mana or you need to find a card. I could see not running this card at 450, but the argument to is also there.
Gilded Lotus: The bigger of the rampers, this card would probably suffer in your cube as you have a dearth of large sweet things to play. I would definitely try to find room for Woodfall Primus, Sundering Titan, and Myr Battlesphere. You run all the signets so a lot of decks should really want these big guys, with woodfall primus being one-of-if-not-the-best green ramp target IMO.
Solemn Simulacrum: The robot is a value machine in so many ways. You have a lot of multicolored cards, and Solemn does great there. He's a card your opponents don't really want to attack or kill either, so he often can buy life or get some free points of damage in. Amazing card that fits into a lot of decks.
Scuttling Doom Engine: I have little experience with this card, so I'm not going to say much about it other than my brother really likes it in cube.
Myr Battlesphere: Big ramp guy that leaves a sizable army and can hit for TWELVE the turn after it's played. That is absolutely a card that wins the game. And if they answer it, you still have 4 bodies left on the board. It's also really good with the 3 clones you run and the whirler rogue. Again, 10 signets really want some colorless pals to play with.
Sundering Titan: Not on the list, but absolutely worth the inclusion. He's a hard one to answer too as it can really **** up your opponent's day if they kill him only to lose the rest of their lands. Your opponent not casting spells = you winning.
Mimic Vat: Cube has so many value creatures, and they all need to die, and what better way to reward yourself (or punish an opponent) than by abusing those ETB triggers over and over? There have been so many scenarios where games that I was so thoroughly far ahead in became deadlocks because I couldn't attack into a mimic vat as my opponent would just outvalue me over and over again after. Especially insane with Thragtusk.
Phyrexian Revoker: Pithing Needle is a strong card and Pithing Needle on legs is also strong. Not running one of those effects seems wrong, even with less PWs than an average cube. There are still enough cards to turn off with one or both.
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Of course, this is all just my opinion, but my opinion comes from playing extensively with these cards and seeing them wreck house in higher-powered versions of cube. If they are good enough in those environments, then they are certainly good enough for a Modern Banlist Cube.
Ya, really. Clearly, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because you evaluate cards in a completely different world than myself and other cube managers do. But every card on that list is significantly better than several cards in your cube. All of those cards are solid inclusions for powered cube lists that span cards from Magic's entire history.
Your colorless section is definitely more diverse than mine. I wish I had more room for more funky stuff like this, but it's pretty tight. I'll look into some of the bodies, but most won't fly. I fear my playgroup would riot if I threw a lot of these in. I can already hear the cries of "pet card," "glorified bauble," "bad ramp," etc.
You've got to be joking. Those cards are ALL dramatically better than a huge list of cards in your cube.
Dead serious, I'm afraid. I won't deny running placeholders in a few of my sections, but I'm pretty confident that the statement "ALL dramatically better than a huge list of cards" isn't accurate. A big part of the problem for most of those cards is them being too expensive. They're not even overcosted for their effects, necessarily. I just think they're terribly slow and a tad less value intensive than other cards at their CMC. I'm particularly incredulous of ramp effects that cost as much as threats, and 6+ mana guys that aren't drastically better than similar cards at lower CMCs.
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
I'm pretty confident that the statement "ALL dramatically better than a huge list of cards" isn't accurate.
Another point we'll just have to agree to disagree about. There's a big selection of cards in your cube list that I consider to be near unplayable in cube formats, and an even bigger list of exclusions that are baffling to me. But you seem to have a clear vision of what you want your format to look like, so it's best to just leave you to sculpt it how you see best. Very little quality fixing lands, too few colorless cards and way, WAY to many multicolor cards for my taste in how cubes should play out to have a healthy metagame.
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Banned. I know, I know. "Ban lists are unnecessary/arbitrary/stupid." (I'm not trying to speak for you, just acknowledging a common retort that I imagine we've all heard/read/used at one time.)
Nah, I wasn't going to say that. I've been trying to respect your modern-legal design parameters, I'm just not that familiar with modern. Plus, a lot of the guys I play with are really big into modern, so I've noticed them gravitating towards archetypes and cards that are good in that format. I get it.
Fails the Terminate Test, which I'm following more closely now.
Strictly speaking, yes it does. However, it is more resilient to ETB trigger based targeted removal like Oblivion Ring and Flametongue Kavu, which is alomst as common in cube as targeted instant/sorcery based removal. Also, it's really efficient as 9 power and toughness spread over three bodies, and its really easy to abuse with recursive and blink effects. The copy trigger does give it some risk, but if you try it I think it will pleasantly surprise you. I notice you've cut all the gold 5+ CMC creatures that fail the Terminate test, but I still think PC is stronger and/or more versatile than a coupleof your mono-colored 5+ drops that are still in your list that fail that test.
Ratchet Bomb and Engineered Explosives are no replacement for Wrath of God, but they're often a bit faster against aggro decks, and wipe out armies of tokens instantly. Plus, they give various decks an out against permanent types their colors can't usually handle. I like Nevinyrral's Disk much better, but that's not an option for you.
I noticed you were pretty meh on this guy here. Has something changed, or do you really think my format is that much weaker than the average, including yours? (I wouldn't take offense if you do. I'm just curious.)
A lot of people here underestimated Hangarback walker's potential for cube when it first came out, it became more popular once it started seeing play in constructed. It's performed really well in my cube.
Phyrexian Revoker: Pithing Needle is a strong card and Pithing Needle on legs is also strong. Not running one of those effects seems wrong, even with less PWs than an average cube. There are still enough cards to turn off with one or both.
I tend to favor aggro and tempo decks when I draft cube, and this has led me to a borderline unhealthy love of this 2-drop. It's great for hosing planeswalkers, but it also screws with mana rocks and equipment quite nicely, and it's pretty rare to play against a deck that has no targets for its ability.. I can't recommend this little guy highly enough.
Reflecting Pool
Really?
Although it doesn't add an new colors to your mana pool, it does make CC and CCC costed creatures easier on your mana base. I was skeptical until I saw it in practice as well.
I'm particularly incredulous of ramp effects that cost as much as threats, and 6+ mana guys that aren't drastically better than similar cards at lower CMCs.
Ramp decks are probably the most popular archetype in my cube right now. Lots of people are Timmies at heart and will snap P1P1 Kozilek or Ulamog, and figure out how they're going to cast it later. I provide enough support to make sure that can happen, and those decks turn out to be quite competitive. However, your modern-only restrictions cut out Show and Tell, Tinker, and a lot of the best=Animate Deadreanimation [cardDance of the Dead]spells[/card], so you might not have as much use of the giant robots everyone who's commented in your thread so far. If you think they'll be castable in your cube though, they're a ton of fun and they absolutely win games.
But you seem to have a clear vision of what you want your format to look like, so it's best to just leave you to sculpt it how you see best.
Well said. A lot of the advice I've given assumes that you're looking for a cube that's of a similar power level to mine, but if that's not the case my advice may not be for you and your playgroup, that's OK. I see on your CT page that you've already taken a lot of the advice you've been given. I hope the results are positive for you and your playgroup!
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a lot of the guys I play with are really big into modern, so I've noticed them gravitating towards archetypes and cards that are good in that format. I get it.
Another one of my biases, I must admit. A big idea with this cube when I first assembled it was trying to straight a balance between cards that are good in Limited and Constructed, with an emphasis on Modern-level card quality, rather than a more generalized idea of goodness. This is one reason why I have certain seemingly sub-par cards over long-held generic cube staples. And I'll usually have a pretty solid defense for most of these. Sidenote here: A huge reason for my not including a card is often my inability to fully understand/defend its perceived effectiveness. If the only argument I can think of for including a card boils down to "IDK, everyone else says it's good," I'm usually not gonna run it.
Fails the Terminate Test, which I'm following more closely now.
Strictly speaking, yes it does. However, it is more resilient to ETB trigger based targeted removal like Oblivion Ring and Flametongue Kavu, which is alomst as common in cube as targeted instant/sorcery based removal. Also, it's really efficient as 9 power and toughness spread over three bodies, and its really easy to abuse with recursive and blink effects. The copy trigger does give it some risk, but if you try it I think it will pleasantly surprise you. I notice you've cut all the gold 5+ CMC creatures that fail the Terminate test, but I still think PC is stronger and/or more versatile than a coupleof your mono-colored 5+ drops that are still in your list that fail that test.
Avacyn's a placeholder for her incoming card, but you've got me with the Sphinx. I suppose I have a certain soft spot for simple, lower cost goodstuff creatures in Blue (see my defense of Conundrum Sphinx). I mean, they're really hard to come by! I'll probably ditch one or both Sphinxes eventually, but not when the competition is predominantly higher cost creatures or less dynamic noncreatures.
As to the Golems, I think the biggest killer for me is that they die to virtually everything in red. I'd actually be much more excited if it was two 4/4s, odd as that might sound.
Phyrexian Revoker: Pithing Needle is a strong card and Pithing Needle on legs is also strong. Not running one of those effects seems wrong, even with less PWs than an average cube. There are still enough cards to turn off with one or both.
I tend to favor aggro and tempo decks when I draft cube, and this has led me to a borderline unhealthy love of this 2-drop. It's great for hosing planeswalkers, but it also screws with mana rocks and equipment quite nicely, and it's pretty rare to play against a deck that has no targets for its ability.. I can't recommend this little guy highly enough.
My issue with this guy basically is the same as with Leonin Relic-Warder and Fiend Hunter (and their variants). Love the effect, hate that it's vulnerable to removal, and despise that the body is so weak. I'll probably end up throwing in the Needle, especially since it plays like a 1-mama off switch for 'walkers. But again, it's a card that I'm less enthusiastic about personally, so it becomes harder to explain its inclusion to outsiders.
Reflecting Pool
Really?
Although it doesn't add an new colors to your mana pool, it does make CC and CCC costed creatures easier on your mana base. I was skeptical until I saw it in practice as well.
This probably came off harsher than I intended, in retrospect. My issue with this is more that it's a another gold land that functions best in a rainbow deck, rather than simply being solid, narrow fixing with minimal requirements.
However, your modern-only restrictions cut out Show and Tell, Tinker, and a lot of the best=Animate Deadreanimation [cardDance of the Dead]spells[/card], so you might not have as much use of the giant robots everyone who's commented in your thread so far.
Thank you! I was just about to say this myself. A lot of these high mana cards exist in formats where both fast, unfair ramp and powerful cheats/shortcuts exist. The cards like Show, Sneak, Sol Ring and Ancient Tomb justify the fatties, which then necessitate the ramp. It's all very symbiotic, but virtually none of it is applicable in Modern (and, by extension, my cube).
My issue with this is more that it's a another gold land that functions best in a rainbow deck, rather than simply being solid, narrow fixing with minimal requirements.
Actually, Reflecting Pool is ideal for 2-color decks trying to hit double-color requirements when you're solidly in two colors. It's really bad in a 4-5cc deck where it won't fix mana you don't otherwise have already and there are few cc costs in the list. It's ideal for cubes engineered to create decks that are solidly rooted in 2-colors, which I thought you mentioned was one of your goals.
Avacyn's a placeholder for her incoming card, but you've got me with the Sphinx. I suppose I have a certain soft spot for simple, lower cost goodstuff creatures in Blue (see my defense of Conundrum Sphinx). I mean, they're really hard to come by! I'll probably ditch one or both Sphinxes eventually, but not when the competition is predominantly higher cost creatures or less dynamic noncreatures.
As to the Golems, I think the biggest killer for me is that they die to virtually everything in red. I'd actually be much more excited if it was two 4/4s, odd as that might sound.
That's not odd at all, I'd definitely run that card too, but PC has actually been printed. It's definitely a low-floor, high ceiling card, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised if you tried it.
Played on curve, you're often switching off a mana rock or an elf to disrupt their mana while advancing your board. Even if you've only screwed up their mana for a turn or two until they found removal, this buys valuable time for aggro decks. Played later, you're often switching off a planeswalker while playing a creature that can help attack it to death. It's a colorless 2-power 2-drop with a relevant ability, so of course it's vulnerable to removal. For 2 mana, you can kill a planeswalker or you can have a creature, but you can't do both, but it's still a fantastic little package for 2. Pithing Needle's great, and tends to be a more permanent answer, but I main deck Revoker much more often because I tend to play decks that can make good use of Phyrexian Revoker's worst case scenario.
I actually like Leonin Relic-Warder quite a bit for many of the same reasons. Playing a bear and exiling their mana rock is such a strong tempo play is such a strong tempo play in the early game, and if you're exiling something more dangerous in the later game it becomes an important removal check. I ran it for a while and it performed quite well, the only reason I'm not running it now is I've found I really need to limit my ww 2-drops to 2 maximum for the right balance of power vs. flexibility (you should probably consider a similar limitation, X/w aggro decks are going to face color screw issues with your current configuration). I'm using those slots to support tokens decks instead with Precinct Captain and Consul's Lieutenant instead. Leonin Relic-warder was one of the better performers when I was pushing a hate bears archetype in my white and green sections.
I'm with you on Fiend Hunter and Banisher Priest, though, but those bodies are under curve, and removing a creature this way is more likely to get you blown out by a surprise blocker added to combat by instant speed removal. That's a lot less likely to be an issue with Leonin Relic-warder.
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My issue with this is more that it's a another gold land that functions best in a rainbow deck, rather than simply being solid, narrow fixing with minimal requirements.
Actually, Reflecting Pool is ideal for 2-color decks trying to hit double-color requirements when you're solidly in two colors. It's really bad in a 4-5cc deck where it won't fix mana you don't otherwise have already and there are few cc costs in the list. It's ideal for cubes engineered to create decks that are solidly rooted in 2-colors, which I thought you mentioned was one of your goals.
Sounds great in theory, but I haven't seen it borne out in my experience. I'm also solidly of the mind that a Tango or Check land can do roughly the same thing you're describing.
Avacyn's a placeholder for her incoming card, but you've got me with the Sphinx. I suppose I have a certain soft spot for simple, lower cost goodstuff creatures in Blue (see my defense of Conundrum Sphinx). I mean, they're really hard to come by! I'll probably ditch one or both Sphinxes eventually, but not when the competition is predominantly higher cost creatures or less dynamic noncreatures.
I'm familiar. I'm so greedy though (as are many of my drafters), and so this card's subtle power often fails to register. I get why it's considered good, but I question whether that's applicable to my format (I should put that sentence in my sig). I suppose I could swap out Ætherling for this, since they kind of serve similar functions. (The land bounce is still rather frustrating, though.)
PC ... It's definitely a low-floor, high ceiling card
There's the rub. I've officially moved into a design space where CMC 5+ cards simply can't have low-floors.
Sounds great in theory, but I haven't seen it borne out in my experience. I'm also solidly of the mind that a Tango or Check land can do roughly the same thing you're describing.
Really? I've been cubing with Pool for ~8 years in both modern, classic, and traditional format cubes and that's exactly what it does.
And it does do the same thing as a 2-color fixing land ...except for all 10 guilds.
Also, why aren't you running any counterspells besides Cryptic Command? It's obviously not just an oversight, but running cards like Ovinize and Turn to Frog instead is seriously neutering your blue section. Those are barely limited playable.
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So I'm making a semi-return to cubing and the forum after a long hiatus and quasi-retirement. My big concern is how well I've well assembled my old format. I consider this puppy my pride and joy as far as my cubes go, though I admit that it's not for everyone.
The basic idea is a cube built through the lens of Modern legality. Not necessarily Modern tournament archetypes, but certainly Modern legal (and in many cases Modern playable) cards. Notably, mine is quite possibly the only cube labeled Modern that actually follows the Banlist AND excludes Commander/Planechase/Conspiracy exclusives.
I'm looking for any and all advice, particularly with regard to improving the monocolor sections. Let me have it!
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You're running a really high percentage of multicolor cards with not only 8 in each guild, but a few more that are really functional gold cards like Loam Lion and Sejiri Merfolk. Don't you find that a lot of those end up marooned in sideboards? I like 4 per guild with a bit of wiggle room for quality hybrids, and I still wind up with a lot of unplayed gold cards. At the same time, you're a bit short on mana-fixing lands with what looks like 3 cycles (fetches, shocks, and checks). At your size I'd run 4, the manland duals and pain lands are probably the best modern legal duals you're not running right now, and Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds are great 5 color fixers you're not running. The lack of fixing looks like it might be particularly rough not only because of your high gold cards, but also come of the very color intensive cards you're running that might not be playable outside of a mono-color deck (ex. Arcangel of Tithes, Erebos' Titan, Phyrexian Obliterator). I tried running Archangel of Tithes, Angel of Jubilation, Necropotence, and Pox for quite a while and they saw next to no play because of the color requirement. It's a shame, because the power level of all of them is so high, but it's too hard to make them work IMHO.
Hope that helps.
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This is what I'm looking for. I definitely hear you here. The black section is tough in general because its card quality isn't consistent across all the types, CMCs and eras. I feel like the bad is a good aggro roleplayer/placeholder, in the same vein as Stormblood Berserker in red. Lili's a placeholder for sure. It's between her and Sorin Markov, and I erred on the sides of castability and card advantage.
In white, the card quality is a lot higher and more consistent, so I definitely want to keep that section free of duds and pet cards. I like Faith's Shield for it's ability to act as a fog for one's walker's, but I'm open to cutting it if the consensus is against it. Arrest and Prison Term strike me as comparable to Journey to Nowhere, minus the possibility for etb abuse or backfiring. I could be swayed to tosh them though.
This is partly laziness, partly compromise. I was running with imbalanced guilds for ages, and ultimately decided that I needed to create a universal max for all of them. I settled on 8 because that was the happiest medium between most of them (plus I'm not strong enough to make deeper cuts to Selesnya :frown:).
The mono-colored "cares about off-color lands" guys have always been tough. I err on putting them in mono since I feel like they're at least partially playable outside their guild proper, plus few decks are really mono anyway. Otherwise, I go down a rabbit hole where Wild Nacatl and Woodland Wanderer become the strangest tricolor and 4-color cards ever, respectively.
If people draft Zoo cards without playing them, that's a personal problem. You might have a point with the card cards, however.
I go back and forth on them. What I really want as my fourth cycle, ideally are the full 10 Tango Lands (whenever WotC gets around to making the other 5). In the maintime, whatever I run in that slot would be placeholders. I also try to discourage greedy rainbow decks in limited, and reducing the fixing usually helps in that regard. I may try swapping out 1 Guild card each for a painland, though. (Again, I'm receptive.)
No offense, but I really have to strongly disagree here. These guys are slow and, IMHO, strictly for budget formats and retail drafting. A cube should have better fixing options than something that can only bring in tapped basics.
This is also a fair point and something I've struggled with.
It does! Much appreciated. Thanks!
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Black aggro 2-drops are pretty shallow, but I think you do have better options available. I've been pretty happy with Oona's Prowler and Pack Rat since they double as discard outlets and the new Heir of Falkenrath looks pretty promising for the same reason. Silumgar Assassin has also been solid, and you could do worse than Blood-chin Rager. Inkfathom Infiltrator might also be worth considering.
Are you holding yourself to a rule to run exactly 3 planeswalkers in each color for some reason? You're not really playing to each color's strengths if you do. White has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to quality planeswalkers, while black and red got the short end of the stick. I'd run Liliana, Heretical Healer over Sorin Markov or Liliana of the Dark Realms, or cut it for something else entirely.
Costing a full mana more makes them a lot worse, and the prospect the creature you've "removed" with them getting bounced and replayed or sacrificed for value makes them way riskier than O-ring style effects. They're great in retail-limited power level environments, but that's about it.
Except these really aren't even partially playable unless your cube is of a power level where Goblin Piker and Mons Goblin Raiders are up to snuff. Are your players hard up enough for playables that they're actually running these off-color?
I don't run Wild Nacatl or the rest of the Naya Zoo because I don't support green aggro (but many do), but since it's kind of a one-off, it's not that big of a deal to run it in your green section. However, some players run it as a tri-color card, and they only run one for each three color combination. Woodland Wanderer can work in any combination involving green, and even in a 2-color deck a 4/4 vigilant trampler ain't bad.
If your players are drafting Zoo cards that they don't play, it's because there wasn't a playable card for the deck they wanted to build in the pack. And if they're desperate enough to play Loam Lion with no Forests or Sunblade Elf with no Plains or white mana source in their decks, imagine how much happier would they have been if they had a Dryad Militant in their draft pool instead.
It's frustrating how many more options there are for allied fixing than enemy fixing, especially since ABU duals fit outside of your design parameters. Scars Duals and Tango lands seem fine, but they'll only fix half your color combinations. Even still, I think pain lands and manlands are better, and now they're available for every color combination. I'd probably run them over Scars lands or Tango lands, but I can see why you'd want Tangos since they work so nicely with fetches. Maybe run enemy manlands or pain lands? Enemy pain lands worked great in my cube until we got enemy manlands. They also fix for C if that matters to you.
I'm not sure what you have against that, 3+ color decks are pretty popular with the guys I play with. When I play against them, I often punish them for it by running more consistent 1-2 color aggro decks, but I want my cube drafts to be an environment with as many interesting options as possible. Quality mana fixing helps make this happen. Furthermore, keep in mind that your players are only going to be playing 22-24 spells out of the 45 cards that they draft. Offering enough lands give your players more live draft picks that won't be marooned in their sideboards.
On the subject of mana fixing and cube, I strongly encourage you to read wtwlf123's article on mana fixing and color requirements. From the color intensive cards you're running in your cube as well as the lower ratio of mana fixing lands in your cube, I think you are probably underestimating the likelihood of color screw being a factor in cube games. It's an easy mistake to make because color-intensive cards tend to be more powerful, and drafting lands doesn't seem inherently exciting, but too much of one and not enough of the other leads to frustrating games where players just can't cast the cards in their hands. That's no fun for anyone.
No offense taken, but I think you're undervaluing how strong it is to be able to fetch for the basic of your choice even if it comes into play tapped. That's worth playing for any deck running 3+ colors. Plus, 5 color fixing options are pretty limited in the history of Magic, and your design restrictions preclude you from running Gemstone Mine and Undiscovered Paradise. I'm not alone on this, either, this forum voted Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse as the #17 land in the last Power Rankings, over Undiscovered Paradise and the check lands.
You're quite welcome! I'm giving you a lot of criticism, but I want you to know that it's coming from wanting to help you and your friends enjoy the Cadillac of Magic formats as much as humanly possible. You mentioned that you've been playing this cube for quite a while, and if you and your friends have been enjoying it, you've definitely been doing a lot right as well. Happy cubing!
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I am, and I know all too well of what you speak. But including an unbalanced number of 'walkers just feels wrong, especially given my strident attempts to balance the colors in all other aspects. I certainly don't see "'walkers are a white thing" going over well, despite the long understood concepts of "artifacts are a blue thing, creatures/lands are a green thing, etc."
Fair enough. I've pulled them out in favor of Faith's Fetters and Temporal Isolation.
Ha. I see your point, but I guess I would come back with this: A few pseudo multicolored cards in the mono sections aren't gonna kill anyone's margins. If anything's hurting the playables ratio, it's the lack of fixing (since corrected).
I feel the drafting style that fuels Rainbow decks is usually counter-intuitive, fun-sucking and runs afoul of the way formats were intended to function. I know that's a tad wordy and severe, but it's been a recurrent issue during both cube and retail drafts. In a nutshell: Whilst the average player has the potential of cutting off one specific color combo, the Rainbow player is usually cutting the entire table. That's pretty toxic, IMO. But anyway...
(Emphasis mine)
Which I'm not exactly trying to encourage.
You're actually wrong there, thanks to Time Spiral (my favorite set/block). Just sayin'
Understood. And if I push back, it's only to better understand and appreciate the advice. Thanks again.
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I run 5 white walkers, 3 in green, 2 in red and blue, and only Liliana of the Veil in black and I've never heard a complaint about that imbalance, probably because whatever I'm running instead is solid. I don't blame you if you want to cap your walkers in each color, but running bad planeswalkers that are worse than other kinds of spells just to fill a quota probably isn't much fun for anyone.
It's about opportunity cost. Each of those slots could be filled with a solid playable that could go into any deck running that color. Better yet, you could cut them all to make room for more colorless cards, which you have very few of and are the most versatile cards of all. Wurmcoil Engine is your only true colorless creature, and there are a lot more great artifacts you guys are missing out on.
It's our cube, and you're crafting the environment that you think you and your friends will enjoy the most, but I'm a bit surprised by your strong feelings on the matter. 5c goodstuff isn't my favorite deck to draft either, but I have players who absolutely love to do that, and no one's ever starved for playables during my cube drafts because of them. If you have enough mana fixing and easy to cast versatile spells, you can support a lot of different play styles and everybody wins. It's all a constant balancing act, but the key to maxing out on the numbers of archetypes you support is to try to have each card be as versatile as possible. This also makes interesting decisions during the entire draft, even when you're getting down to the last few cards in each pack.
I also don't see 5c goodstuff decks dominating my drafts either. They just aren't consistent enough to be top tier, and since you're not running ABU duals, they're going to be even less consistent in your cube than they'd be in mine.
If you really don't want to see 3+ color decks, though, I'm surprised you're running so many multicolored cards because those also encourage splashes.
You are correct, sir. I don't play modern. I recommend Gemstone mine, too then. It's fantastic aggro fixing, I jam that in any 2-color aggro deck.
It's all good.
I'd also like to invite you to participate in the "Draft the Above Person's Cube" thread. It's a really fun way to check out other people's cubes, see what kinds of decks people link to draft in yours, and collect helpful data on which cards are and aren't popular picks from your cube. You'll see all different styles and power levels of cubes there, and you'll probably pick up some helpful feedback along the way from the people who draft your cube.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I see your point. Praytell, what sort of artifacts which you suggest? I'd be pleasantly surprised, albeit a tad gobsmacked, if I was missing something painfully obvious.
You've got me there, for sure. I took your advice and retooled the sections again. I had to allow some unbalance amongst the gold cards again, but I've definitely trimmed the fat.
Looks promising. That thread was largely stagnant/dead when I last used this site actively, but I'll definitely check it out now.
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Looking forward to drafting your cube in "Draft the Above Person's Cube" thread!
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I think there are a lot of modern legal artifacts that are painfully absent from the list. As are several great lands. Just my $0.02.
Most (if not all) of the cards on this list are slam-dunk includes for 450 card cubes. Better yet modern-only cubes.
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Banned. I know, I know. "Ban lists are unnecessary/arbitrary/stupid." (I'm not trying to speak for you, just acknowledging a common retort that I imagine we've all heard/read/used at one time.)
Running it.
Fails the Terminate Test, which I'm following more closely now.
Your colorless section is definitely more diverse than mine. I wish I had more room for more funky stuff like this, but it's pretty tight. I'll look into some of the bodies, but most won't fly. I fear my playgroup would riot if I threw a lot of these in. I can already hear the cries of "pet card," "glorified bauble," "bad ramp," etc.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
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You've got to be joking. Those cards are ALL dramatically better than a huge list of cards in your cube.
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I noticed you were pretty meh on this guy here. Has something changed, or do you really think my format is that much weaker than the average, including yours? (I wouldn't take offense if you do. I'm just curious.)
I keep going back and forth on this guy. I'll probably have the bite the bullet and just put him in soon.
Turn 4+ ramp has never sat right with me. The value is there, I just don't care for the design/effect.
These don't win the game. I really feel like 6+ mana should be reserved for cards that win the game, preferably 'walkers.
Definite maybe.
In the immortal words of Char Aznable: "too slow." Plus it just took a hit with the new DFC ruling.
Similar problems as the bomb, compounded by being generally worse than a proper boardwipe (scaled or unscaled).
I MIGHT come around on the Mine, though I honestly feel like all of these fall into the same unsavory category of "fixing that punishes people for wanting fixing." I'd much rather have narrower fixing with limited/temporary drawbacks than broader fixing with big, permanent drawbacks. The latter serves my (cube management) purposes better and hopefully discourages rainbow drafting. The former only pays lip service to my format goals whilst actually encouraging the type of decks I'd rather not see.
Really?
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
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Those cards mentioned aren't really funky, and here's why:
Coalition Relic: 3-mana colorless ramper that not only fixes your colors, but can conditionally ramp you an additional color of your choice. You're essentially jumping from 3 to 5/6 mana by turns 3-to-4, which is a crazy leap. Coalition Relic is a top pick and has been one since the beginning of my cubing days. It not only goes into any deck that wants to ramp and use their mana, but works exceedingly well in those decks if they are 2+ colors.
Hedron Archive: While a slower card than Thran Dynamo, 2 mana is still nothing to sniff at, and Archive gives you the bonus of being a huge cash-in when you no longer need the mana or you need to find a card. I could see not running this card at 450, but the argument to is also there.
Gilded Lotus: The bigger of the rampers, this card would probably suffer in your cube as you have a dearth of large sweet things to play. I would definitely try to find room for Woodfall Primus, Sundering Titan, and Myr Battlesphere. You run all the signets so a lot of decks should really want these big guys, with woodfall primus being one-of-if-not-the-best green ramp target IMO.
Solemn Simulacrum: The robot is a value machine in so many ways. You have a lot of multicolored cards, and Solemn does great there. He's a card your opponents don't really want to attack or kill either, so he often can buy life or get some free points of damage in. Amazing card that fits into a lot of decks.
Scuttling Doom Engine: I have little experience with this card, so I'm not going to say much about it other than my brother really likes it in cube.
Myr Battlesphere: Big ramp guy that leaves a sizable army and can hit for TWELVE the turn after it's played. That is absolutely a card that wins the game. And if they answer it, you still have 4 bodies left on the board. It's also really good with the 3 clones you run and the whirler rogue. Again, 10 signets really want some colorless pals to play with.
Sundering Titan: Not on the list, but absolutely worth the inclusion. He's a hard one to answer too as it can really **** up your opponent's day if they kill him only to lose the rest of their lands. Your opponent not casting spells = you winning.
Mimic Vat: Cube has so many value creatures, and they all need to die, and what better way to reward yourself (or punish an opponent) than by abusing those ETB triggers over and over? There have been so many scenarios where games that I was so thoroughly far ahead in became deadlocks because I couldn't attack into a mimic vat as my opponent would just outvalue me over and over again after. Especially insane with Thragtusk.
Phyrexian Revoker: Pithing Needle is a strong card and Pithing Needle on legs is also strong. Not running one of those effects seems wrong, even with less PWs than an average cube. There are still enough cards to turn off with one or both.
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Of course, this is all just my opinion, but my opinion comes from playing extensively with these cards and seeing them wreck house in higher-powered versions of cube. If they are good enough in those environments, then they are certainly good enough for a Modern Banlist Cube.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Dead serious, I'm afraid. I won't deny running placeholders in a few of my sections, but I'm pretty confident that the statement "ALL dramatically better than a huge list of cards" isn't accurate. A big part of the problem for most of those cards is them being too expensive. They're not even overcosted for their effects, necessarily. I just think they're terribly slow and a tad less value intensive than other cards at their CMC. I'm particularly incredulous of ramp effects that cost as much as threats, and 6+ mana guys that aren't drastically better than similar cards at lower CMCs.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Another point we'll just have to agree to disagree about. There's a big selection of cards in your cube list that I consider to be near unplayable in cube formats, and an even bigger list of exclusions that are baffling to me. But you seem to have a clear vision of what you want your format to look like, so it's best to just leave you to sculpt it how you see best. Very little quality fixing lands, too few colorless cards and way, WAY to many multicolor cards for my taste in how cubes should play out to have a healthy metagame.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Nah, I wasn't going to say that. I've been trying to respect your modern-legal design parameters, I'm just not that familiar with modern. Plus, a lot of the guys I play with are really big into modern, so I've noticed them gravitating towards archetypes and cards that are good in that format. I get it.
Strictly speaking, yes it does. However, it is more resilient to ETB trigger based targeted removal like Oblivion Ring and Flametongue Kavu, which is alomst as common in cube as targeted instant/sorcery based removal. Also, it's really efficient as 9 power and toughness spread over three bodies, and its really easy to abuse with recursive and blink effects. The copy trigger does give it some risk, but if you try it I think it will pleasantly surprise you. I notice you've cut all the gold 5+ CMC creatures that fail the Terminate test, but I still think PC is stronger and/or more versatile than a couple of your mono-colored 5+ drops that are still in your list that fail that test.
Ratchet Bomb and Engineered Explosives are no replacement for Wrath of God, but they're often a bit faster against aggro decks, and wipe out armies of tokens instantly. Plus, they give various decks an out against permanent types their colors can't usually handle. I like Nevinyrral's Disk much better, but that's not an option for you.
A lot of people here underestimated Hangarback walker's potential for cube when it first came out, it became more popular once it started seeing play in constructed. It's performed really well in my cube.
I tend to favor aggro and tempo decks when I draft cube, and this has led me to a borderline unhealthy love of this 2-drop. It's great for hosing planeswalkers, but it also screws with mana rocks and equipment quite nicely, and it's pretty rare to play against a deck that has no targets for its ability.. I can't recommend this little guy highly enough.
Although it doesn't add an new colors to your mana pool, it does make CC and CCC costed creatures easier on your mana base. I was skeptical until I saw it in practice as well.
Ramp decks are probably the most popular archetype in my cube right now. Lots of people are Timmies at heart and will snap P1P1 Kozilek or Ulamog, and figure out how they're going to cast it later. I provide enough support to make sure that can happen, and those decks turn out to be quite competitive. However, your modern-only restrictions cut out Show and Tell, Tinker, and a lot of the best=Animate Dead reanimation [cardDance of the Dead]spells[/card], so you might not have as much use of the giant robots everyone who's commented in your thread so far. If you think they'll be castable in your cube though, they're a ton of fun and they absolutely win games.
Well said. A lot of the advice I've given assumes that you're looking for a cube that's of a similar power level to mine, but if that's not the case my advice may not be for you and your playgroup, that's OK. I see on your CT page that you've already taken a lot of the advice you've been given. I hope the results are positive for you and your playgroup!
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Another one of my biases, I must admit. A big idea with this cube when I first assembled it was trying to straight a balance between cards that are good in Limited and Constructed, with an emphasis on Modern-level card quality, rather than a more generalized idea of goodness. This is one reason why I have certain seemingly sub-par cards over long-held generic cube staples. And I'll usually have a pretty solid defense for most of these. Sidenote here: A huge reason for my not including a card is often my inability to fully understand/defend its perceived effectiveness. If the only argument I can think of for including a card boils down to "IDK, everyone else says it's good," I'm usually not gonna run it.
Avacyn's a placeholder for her incoming card, but you've got me with the Sphinx. I suppose I have a certain soft spot for simple, lower cost goodstuff creatures in Blue (see my defense of Conundrum Sphinx). I mean, they're really hard to come by! I'll probably ditch one or both Sphinxes eventually, but not when the competition is predominantly higher cost creatures or less dynamic noncreatures.
As to the Golems, I think the biggest killer for me is that they die to virtually everything in red. I'd actually be much more excited if it was two 4/4s, odd as that might sound.
My issue with this guy basically is the same as with Leonin Relic-Warder and Fiend Hunter (and their variants). Love the effect, hate that it's vulnerable to removal, and despise that the body is so weak. I'll probably end up throwing in the Needle, especially since it plays like a 1-mama off switch for 'walkers. But again, it's a card that I'm less enthusiastic about personally, so it becomes harder to explain its inclusion to outsiders.
This probably came off harsher than I intended, in retrospect. My issue with this is more that it's a another gold land that functions best in a rainbow deck, rather than simply being solid, narrow fixing with minimal requirements.
Thank you! I was just about to say this myself. A lot of these high mana cards exist in formats where both fast, unfair ramp and powerful cheats/shortcuts exist. The cards like Show, Sneak, Sol Ring and Ancient Tomb justify the fatties, which then necessitate the ramp. It's all very symbiotic, but virtually none of it is applicable in Modern (and, by extension, my cube).
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Actually, Reflecting Pool is ideal for 2-color decks trying to hit double-color requirements when you're solidly in two colors. It's really bad in a 4-5cc deck where it won't fix mana you don't otherwise have already and there are few cc costs in the list. It's ideal for cubes engineered to create decks that are solidly rooted in 2-colors, which I thought you mentioned was one of your goals.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Meloku the Clouded Mirror is pretty sweet. Check the SCD thread for details.
That's not odd at all, I'd definitely run that card too, but PC has actually been printed. It's definitely a low-floor, high ceiling card, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised if you tried it.
My issue with this guy basically is the same as with Leonin Relic-Warder and Fiend-Hunter (and their variants). Love the effect, hate that it's vulnerable to removal, and despise that the body is so weak.
Played on curve, you're often switching off a mana rock or an elf to disrupt their mana while advancing your board. Even if you've only screwed up their mana for a turn or two until they found removal, this buys valuable time for aggro decks. Played later, you're often switching off a planeswalker while playing a creature that can help attack it to death. It's a colorless 2-power 2-drop with a relevant ability, so of course it's vulnerable to removal. For 2 mana, you can kill a planeswalker or you can have a creature, but you can't do both, but it's still a fantastic little package for 2. Pithing Needle's great, and tends to be a more permanent answer, but I main deck Revoker much more often because I tend to play decks that can make good use of Phyrexian Revoker's worst case scenario.
I actually like Leonin Relic-Warder quite a bit for many of the same reasons. Playing a bear and exiling their mana rock is such a strong tempo play is such a strong tempo play in the early game, and if you're exiling something more dangerous in the later game it becomes an important removal check. I ran it for a while and it performed quite well, the only reason I'm not running it now is I've found I really need to limit my ww 2-drops to 2 maximum for the right balance of power vs. flexibility (you should probably consider a similar limitation, X/w aggro decks are going to face color screw issues with your current configuration). I'm using those slots to support tokens decks instead with Precinct Captain and Consul's Lieutenant instead. Leonin Relic-warder was one of the better performers when I was pushing a hate bears archetype in my white and green sections.
I'm with you on Fiend Hunter and Banisher Priest, though, but those bodies are under curve, and removing a creature this way is more likely to get you blown out by a surprise blocker added to combat by instant speed removal. That's a lot less likely to be an issue with Leonin Relic-warder.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
You're doing it wrong. (I'm joking, but barely.) U/x Aggro has a ton of support in my cube, especially compared to most formats.
Also, please save your decks. Accounts on 'tutor are free and the data is really useful.
Sounds great in theory, but I haven't seen it borne out in my experience. I'm also solidly of the mind that a Tango or Check land can do roughly the same thing you're describing.
I'm familiar. I'm so greedy though (as are many of my drafters), and so this card's subtle power often fails to register. I get why it's considered good, but I question whether that's applicable to my format (I should put that sentence in my sig). I suppose I could swap out Ætherling for this, since they kind of serve similar functions. (The land bounce is still rather frustrating, though.)
There's the rub. I've officially moved into a design space where CMC 5+ cards simply can't have low-floors.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Really? I've been cubing with Pool for ~8 years in both modern, classic, and traditional format cubes and that's exactly what it does.
And it does do the same thing as a 2-color fixing land ...except for all 10 guilds.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Also, why aren't you running any counterspells besides Cryptic Command? It's obviously not just an oversight, but running cards like Ovinize and Turn to Frog instead is seriously neutering your blue section. Those are barely limited playable.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.