MTG Salvation

I wanted to try something a little different from what my group and I normally draft. I've had two cubes now for quite a while; my powered 555 which is the list we predominantly draft, and my 450 peasant, which is what we draft when we're at four people and waiting for more to arrive or when we've shuffled the powered cube twice already and just really don't want to shuffle it again. The problem with that is going from powered to peasant is a drastic change and sometimes my players are less than happy about opening the common/uncommon packs. With that in mind, I thought I'd try to make my peasant list a little spicier by adding a few rares that are a bit more powerful than what you normally have available at uncommon. After spending a few days on this, it became apparent that I wasn't trying build peasant+, I was just building a normal unpowered cube with a lower power level. So there's no Baneslayer Angel, but there is a Battlegrace Angel. This is my first draft (so to speak) of this list and I'd love some feedback. Are there cards here that stick out as way too powerful or anything that appears to be mediocre by cube standards? It's a different format from what I'm used to in both powered and peasant, so card evaluation has been a little challenging.

I'll post the list below, but here is the CubeTutor link as well. http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/48531

Low power cube is much more interesting than LOLZBESTMAGICCARDSHERE. It actually allows for much more interesting themes being built. It doesn't seem to be what you have in mind though. I haven't looked through all of the cards but looking at the gold cards hint that you're sticking with conservative color pair archetypes, using the standard core setish limited themes. I know it's not really that relevant a critique, (because that's not what you're aiming for,) but I think it's a slightly wasted opportunity. That said, more cube variety is always good, so I applaud that you are going in a different direction.

As I was putting the multicolor section together, I basically asked myself what I want each color pair to be doing. There are a few choices there that I'm still not sure about. Some that may be too powerful (Brago, King Eternal) and some that may not be powerful enough (Catacomb Sifter). Just looking at Orzhov as an example, there's a discard spell, a disruptive bear, a tokens enabler, and a reanimation spell. These are all things that I hope BW and BWx decks will be happy to do in this cube.

What type of themes would you have gone for?

Following WotC limited design advice, the weaker cube cards should fill two roles, while the stronger cards should be more narrow. I don't have any particular ideas of how the archetypes could be shapen, but the thing is that you're following ordinary cube design, just using other cards. (My earlier comment about you just doing standard core limited is not really accurate, I apologize, core limited works very different from cube design.)

What I'd do, personally, is to look into the lesser themes that have been tried out during Magic's history, but haven't proved strong enough to make it to standard cube design. A quick example I thought of could be "+1/+1 counters matter" which can be safely set in any combination of the Bant colors (all colors really due to +1/+1 counters being widely available and many mechanics working with these counters in all colors... but let's take any combination of the Bant base) - Outlast (GW), Evolve (GU), Undying (GU), the "phantom" mechanic (GW), proliferate (GU, artifacts), Graft (GU), Bolster (GW), Megamorph, Renown, Monstrosity, Kicker and a plethora of cards that provide +1/+1 counters. Travel Preparations for example can get a new, awesome context in an environment with phantom creatures, Phantom Centaur Phantom Nomad and Phantom Nisboa. If you include a critical mass of cards that care about +1/+1 counters, (such as Abzan Falconer, Chronicler of Heroes or Bred for the Hunt - awful for regular cubing but with huge potential in a low power design), a critical mass of cards that simply provide +1/+1 counters in all functionalities (such as Phantom Nantuko Chronomaton and Earthen Arms), cards that have multiple functionalities that synergize with other strategies (such as Fertilid and Scute Mob, which synergize both with counters and ramp, or proliferate cards, which may synergize with Wither and other -1/-1 granting cards), you suddenly create a new and interesing limited environment... And contrary to Wizards of the Coast, you have the freedom to pick and choose cards from the entire game.

You can even be more creative and add a critical mass of enabling red +1/+1 counter cards such as Acolyte of the Inferno, Curse of Stalked Prey, Fierce Invokation, Monstrosity, Bloodthirst, Proliferate cards and then use otherwise low power archetype cards like say Falkenrath Exterminator, Goblin Razerunners, double strikers, tramplers, Ion Storm, Molten Hydra, Rabble-Rouser, and Slumbering Dragon. While WotC has made red care about counters in a bunch of sets, these weren't in formats with Outlast's "counters matter" so suddenly this Abzan Falconer can get a completely new context while red can have a major different feel.

You can also look into black's "loner mechanic" of Avacyn Restored which was underdeveloped - can you make it work if you have all Magic cards to choose from? From Avacyn Restored too, you can make a Miracle deck possible through adding a critical mass of library manipulation and cards that care about the top card of your library. You can make RG be a "graveyard matters" pair, with Madness, Threshold and Delve cards, (EDIT: Meant Dredge, not Delve) along with graveyard matters fatties. You can make blue the most aggressive color, synergizing with Delver of Secrets, Phantasmal Bear, Prowess cards, unblockability, tax counters and combat tricks, while making red the slowest, biggest hitting color. You can enable monogreen control with Arachnogenesis, Hunter's Ambush, Haze Frog, Singing-Tree, Serene Sunset, Ambush Viper, huge fatties for the late game and Fight cards for removal combined with Harmonize and regrowth cards to refill your hand.

The point is that powering down allows for a much larger variety of card selection and mechanics; cubing is usually playing Limited with Vintage/Legacy powered cards, which is why many of the archetypes resemble the archetypes present in Legacy/Vintage. But cards are only as strong as they are in a vaccuum. You decide for yourself what this vaccuum is, what kind of cards are actually the strongest in your environment.

That said... Don't use my advice if that's not your goal. Just powering down might make your cube unique enough since players will finally see a larger variety of cards. I think the main reason I'm discussing this in particular is because I'm considering building a cube that highlights different facets of the colors/pairs myself.

I've drafted your cube a bit and it feels fine. Haven't played with it of course.

Quote from calibretto »

What type of themes would you have gone for?

I was asking myself the same question.

But FWIW, your cube idea of making something different inspire me to try the same. Some kind of unpowered cube in which wouldn't figure any powered staples card and in which traditionnal color pairings and archetypes wouldn't be viable. That could be fun! Real quick it could look like this :

UG : Aggro
UR : Midrange
BR : Control
WG : Combo
WB : Some kind of drain life stuff?

@Sephon19 - I do like what you're going for and have had similar ideas myself. You start with an idea for a specific theme (like Bant +1/+1 counters matter) and then you fill in the cards based on that. You do the same for the other shards and in the end, you have something very similar to your own (actual) limited environment that feel a lot like what you'd find in Ravnica or Shards block drafting. I like that idea, but to be honest, that's a ton of work. I spent the better part of a week combing through cards to find solid inclusions for certain weak points on the curve. I can't imaging the kind of time it would take to comb through all of those keywords trying to find the perfect balance to make a +1/+1 counters theme work properly. It's definitely a good idea, though. In my case, I just wanted a "regular" cube environment with normal themes (like UW decks will mostly be control or tempo), but I didn't want to use the extra powerful cards (like planeswalkers, Sun Titan, Wrath of God, etc).

@Zetsu_Sensei - For my themes, I mostly just went with what tends to come natural for those color pairs. For UG, those decks tend to be more ramp tempo midrange, so something like Spitting Image felt perfect for those decks. Though it would be interesting to try to take each color pair and see how it performs in a role that it doesn't naturally fall into (like combo for WG).

No matter, I'm happy you like what I said. I'll also stress yet again that you have to follow the heart of your own cube design, and your preference seems different, as you outlined. Have to say that it's also perfectly fine to find certain cube designs too much work. The point of the cube is not to build it, but to play it. Being economical with your spare time is quite reasonable.

Quote from calibretto »

I can't imaging the kind of time it would take to comb through all of those keywords trying to find the perfect balance [...]

Yeah that certainly represents a lot of work and time gathering and brainstorming on card options. But if you like the idea, maybe we could combine our efforts to work on an eventual long-term project. Going step by step into each color identity and find something that could at least work on paper. Then if it looks good, we could translate it in practice independently. Just a suggestion. Feel free.

I just want to see monogreen control a thing somewhere, somehow, sometime.

I don't think you should be too worried about the work of creating a cube. It is a lot of fun, after all. You will also find a lot of help and advice in forums, and probably you will have some interesting discussions about card choices along the way.

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I just drafted your cube, and opened up Grave Pact pack one. There were a couple of other interesting options too, but I decided to go for the Grave Pact deck, and force it all the way. I managed to get a lot of good cards for the deck, Demonic Tutor to fetch my pact, Reassembling Skeleton, Catacomb Sifter, Shriekmaw. I also had some trilands and got Slave of Bolas which I could cast off both red and blue mana meaning I also had an opening for Goblin Bombardment if it came my way. Sadly it never did, so I ended splashing blue for the Slave of Bolas as well as Æther Mutation and Condescend. Not sure if the blue splash was the correct choice, but I was a bit short on playables and also wanted ways to trigger the grave pact so I wanted to play the Slave of Bolas. I only got Mortarpod and Carrion Feeder as direct sac outlets, although I did manage to find a very late Sylvan Tutor as a duplicate Feeder. Oh, I also got Death Cloud, I guess, that could also work to trigger the pact.

That deck needs a Blood Artist something awful. I don't think you needed the blue splash, but your mana is really good. I probably would've made these changes.

- Deadwood Treefolk
- Condescend
- Aether Mutation
- Slave of Bolas

+ Baloth Null (Seems better than the Treefolk, as it gets two back in one shot and doesn't vanish away. Argument could also be made for Angler or Trike here.)
+ Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis (This guy seems too powerful to ride the sideboard, imo. I feel like he's a bomb.)
+ Blood Scrivener (Something else to do early. I actually wish this was any random removal spell.)
+ Conclave Naturalists (There's some really good artifacts and enchantments floating around and I like to have main deck answers.)

This archetype makes me wonder if I should be including something like Nantuko Husk over maybe one of the random black 2-drop aggro guys to help push it.

Yeah, you are probably right about a lot of that. But like I said, I was really trying to force the grave pact deck, and for that reason I wanted Slave of Bolas as another trigger. I think I also included the Treefolk for that reason, it is a mad combo when it dies to vanishing into a grave pact trigger :-D

I don't think I saw Blood Artist, but I could have. I know I was forcing things pretty hard, and this was part of the reason why the mana ended up being good: when I had no solid options I would rather prioritize fixing so that I could maybe splash goodies I picked up later. The deck would probably have turned out better if I had remained more open to just "solid picks" and not gone all in on the grave pact, but I wanted to try that out. Partly to see if I could then make some suggestions based on my experience; if the grave pact deck didn't at least partly come together when I first pick it and then force it all the way, that is probably a sign that something is wrong.

In the end it turned out ok I think. I might not be 3-0'ing the pod, but assuming we are playing swiss I think I would at least have some fun

I made a few changes to try to better support both the blink and the black Grave Pact sacrifice archetypes.

Fabled Hero --> Stonecloaker
Kor Hookmaster --> Galepowder Mage

I'm hoping that Stonecloaker and Galepowder Mage will both move players into the archetype when they show up and help to support those players that are already there.

Vampire Interloper --> Nantuko Husk

Nantuko Husk felt like it was a necessary component to help push that archetype and it was missing.

Centaur Glade --> Rude Awakening

Rude Awakening may prove to be too powerful for this list, but I think it's worth a shot and it gives green something else to do that's not just ramp to a big a creature.

Hey Cali,

I am trying to move into a low power / un-powered type cube up from peasant. mainly due to wanting to add all the rare fixing lands as well as use cards that can help build archetypes that in peasant felt a bit too unloved (spells matter in blue/red was underwhelming but now i'd have access to other cards that care about casting instants, sorcery's, better prowess cards etc...)

anecdotally, I feel like now aggro has gotten better overall and while i like to keep my games to multiplayer when we play 1 on 1 it's easier to just steamroll people (with better creatures / rares etc...) do you find this to be true when you upgraded to rares?

I guess I'm having trouble balancing the upgrade of archetypes to trying not to put in TOO much other good stuff and warping the cube one way or another, whether making control too strong or aggro too strong while not building up the others enough.

so its a do you tone DOWN one side or the other or just keep building up the weak side? balancing eh....

my enchantment theme has kind of dwindled as it was just barely playable in peasant and now adding rares it's pretty weak, unless i add cards that I think are a bit TOO powerful to the cube that might make things less fun eg Doomwake Giant(I kind of despise mass removal/kill, it's so feelsbadman). Plus its narrow and I'd rather have cards with more synergy with more of the cube than that.

anyway love to hear some thoughts... (link to my new low power cube below)

First of all, sorry that I missed your response. I don't always check the cube threads area, so I just didn't see it. My bad.

Anyway, to answer you, I haven't really noticed that any specific archetype or theater has been over powered in our drafts of the low power cube. With that said, you should know that this cube is my secondary cube and we don't draft it as often as we do the powered list. I have been surprised at how well certain cards have performed and how poorly others have performed, though. The OP on this thread is not up to date, but the CubeTutor in my sig is if you'd like to look at what I'm currently running in this list. I'll admit that it's hard to find the line to draw in the sand between peasant and powered. How powerful is too powerful is the question of the day when it comes to a list like this and it's really your prerogative.

I've made quite a few changes to this list over the past few months. I'd really appreciate some feedback on the current list. Anything that seems a little too powerful for an environment like this? Anything that seems too low impact or downright bad? Anything you don't see, but feel like you should? The list in the OP and on CubeTutor are up to date. The CubeTutor link is in my sig (labeled little CubeTutor).

Thanks!

After having played with this list for the past year or so, I've noticed several cards whose power level and popularity haven't been what I expected. I'd like to find replacements for these cards and I'm looking for advice from you guys.

In White, the creature suite seems to be solid for the most part. The finishers, however, aren't what I expected them to be. Sentinel of the Eternal Watch was an all-star when the cube was completely Peasant, but in this list it's a little lacking. On the same note, Luminate Primordial looked like a solid ramp/reanimator target, but has spent a lot of time in sideboards. People seem to prefer other finishers in both white and other colors to these two. I'd like to replace these with a couple of five or six casting cost finishers that might be a little more exciting without getting into Baneslayer and Elesh Norn territory. I'm looking at these as options for replacements, but what do you guys think? Any of these stand out as too powerful or too boring? Anything I might have missed that I should be considering instead?

• Adarkar Valkyrie
• Crovax, Ascendant Hero
• Deathless Angel
• Yosei, the Morning Star

In Blue, I've found Elder Deep-Fiend to be extremely oppressive and powerful for this list. It flies under the radar a bit a looks a lot worse than it plays. I've actually though about giving it a shot in the powered list just based on how good it's been in this list. I am, however, having a hard time finding a solid blue finisher that fits into the power level that I want to achieve with this list. The one creature that stands out to me is Keiga, the Tide Star, but I worry that the Kami dragons might be a bit too powerful as well. Any suggestions on this spot are definitely appreciated.

Black is mostly what I want, but I would like to find a way to get at least one more Wrath effect in. I was thinking of cutting Decree of Pain in favor of either Crux of Fate or Black Sun's Zenith. I've also been pretty unimpressed with Sidisi, Undead Vizier. I thought if I went for the Kami dragon route in Whtie and Blue, I'd just throw Kokusho into this slot. There's not really any way to truly abuse him in this list, but again, I worry that the Kami dragons are just too much. There are plenty of middle of the road five drops in black, so what would you guys recommend in this slot?

The only cards in Red that I find to frequent sideboards and just be generally unpopular are Shower of Coals and Slice and Dice. I thought these might be good low power replacements for Wildfire to help enable a similar deck, but that just hasn't been the case. I honestly have no idea what I'd want to replace these cards with, though. I don't really want to throw in more generic burn or aggressive creatures here.

I'm actually really happy with Green, but thought about throwing Call of the Herd back in the mix over Boon Satyr. Other than that, I've been really happy with how this color has been playing. The top end has a nice power level without going over the top and the aggro/midrange decks are just where I want them.

My Guild section has been pretty solid as well. I am thinking of replacing the tri-lands with the new cycle duals, not because of being actual duals, but because of the cycling. I don't know if that's what I'll replace or not, but I am interested in these lands for this list. The tri-lands seem to enable three and four color decks too much, though, and that's not really what I'm looking for. I want good fixing, but I'm not trying to face five color good stuff all the time and I don't want everyone's two color decks splashing for something. I want people to really have to value fixing highly to make those types of decks work.

Finally, for Artifacts/Colorless, I recently included Meekstone, which has been a great build around card for aggro and midrange/combo decks alike. I've also added in the Signets/Talismen for the non-aggro color pairs and that's has been pretty successful as well. The only card I'd really like to find a replacement for is Vulshok Morningstar. I'm not sure what I want in that slot, though. Should it be another equipment or is there some other artifact that would be at home in a list like this? I'm also thinking of swapping Darksteel Ingot out for Cultivator's Caravan just because of how solid Renegade Freighter and Untethered Express have been.

I know this is a long, article-like post and I appreciate any of you who take the time to read it and give the list a look. I do value the opinions of the crew we have here on MTGS, and I hope that you guys don't mind offering up some advice. The OP is up to date and the CubeTutor link is in my sig.