The primary function of this cube will be 2-man Winchester and Winston drafts with an occasional 4-man normal draft. I want it to be as powerful as possible while still making sense in those formats and sticking to budget.
I would love to support Artifact.dek as it's my favorite archetype, but I just couldn't find cards that made it happen in my budget range.The way my aggro is set-up right now, I'm pushing most aggro decks to try and be Red but allowing some support in every color but Blue. (And the green support is fairly light, I imagine "aggro" in RG will be more of a fast midrange usually.)
In my lands, I'm trying wtwlf123's approach of cutting one card in each color to make room for the Vivid Lands. This should help make sure each deck has appropriate mana fixing even when only 90/180 cards are drafted.
Big Update! The cube is now "finished". Multicolor was changed significantly and the budget increased from $100 to $175 because I had the opportunity to travel and trade this past week. The current cube purchased in entirety on TCGplayer.com with shipping comes in under $175. I am willing to expand the budget more as time goes on. I've purchased the cards I was unable to trade for and they will be here soon. I got tired of updating my list here on this forum, so please follow the link to cubetutor to see my Cube! I welcome your suggestions and advice as I enter the world of cubing and I expect I will be back with testing results and questions in a few weeks.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I think at first glance you are going to have to drastically reduce the number of cards in your multicolor section of your cube. Coming off of the Ravnica block everyone is pumped about the guilds and their identities - but 40 is a really tough number to slot. You are stifling the archetypes and strengths of the colors and their roles. I only run 10 in my 180 and 10 dual lands. Pull 30 of the multicolor and use them to strengthen he archetypes you want to see "strong" in each color. Add a couple more color fixing lands that can be used by any color - like City of Brass to get your color fixing up to 10. That will give back 28 card slots. Give 5 cards back to each color and use the last three for artifacts. If you do this I think that alone will go a long way to giving you two color decks when the draft hits.
Think about being half way through the draft with two colors chosen for your deck - depending on the draft the odds say that there are 18 dead cards and up to potentially 36 left that you are going to sideboard or be forced to splash a third color to support.
As far as specifics, I usually tell people to focus on cards with more than one use depending on the situation. The command cycle is a great example - Primal, Cryptic, Profane are the three I would consider. These can be pricey so maybe try and trade for them. Bow of Nylea is another good example that may be more budget friendly. Creatures with ETB effects are important as well, but it looks like you have that covered pretty well.
I think you are closer than you think. Play with the multicolor section and let me know.
The 40 multicolor is including the fixing lands. I'm actually running double the amount you are currently and double the amount of fixing lands, but not quadruple. I do think it is a bit high, but it's really rough to go down to only ONE card per color pair. I'm not sure I'm willing to do that. I do think my mana fixing is excessive right now though, we are finding that we almost always have plenty of mana fixing and it's generally really attractive to go 3-color because our mana is so good. I will probably cut the cycle of Vivids or the cycle of Guildgates with the next major update. City of Brass would be great, I'm trying to find a copy right now. However, this is only going to give back 4-9 slots, not the 28 you described. I was thinking I would probably put all those slots into Artifacts because they are more versatile.
I like your thought process of running versatile cards and I've taken it into account somewhat, but in general my problem is having enough cards even moreso than having the right ones currently.
Currently we are doing 120 card drafts instead of 90 card drafts and that has instantly fixed the problem. We are getting roughly 23-28 cards in our primary 2-colors with this amount and my last few drafts deciding whether to play 2-colors or splash for a third has been a real decision instead of a forced one. I'm also testing an increase in aggro cards and removal of some of the green ramp/fixing. For the moment this is working, but I do still want to improve it.
Thanks for the feedback!
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Glad that you have fixed the problem! I have just found most gold cards to be dead drafts when we do a traditional 3 pack draft, but the additional cards would probably straighten this out a bit as well. 180 card cubes are always a series of tough choices.
If you can't find a City of Brass wait a few weeks and grab a Mana Confluence - almost the same card and should be easier to nail down
Mana Confluence is going to be much more expensive than City of Brass. I'll start with the City. I've been making a lot of rapid fire changes in my cube lately and I'm testing tons of new cards. I'll post the big update soon.
Do you stick to 90 card piles in when you Winston draft Geb? I imagine it's closer to possible because you have 20% more colored cards than me. (Which would improve the 18 cards in 2-colors situation to more like 21-22 and 2-color would sometimes be possible although probably still stretching it.) From what I've read doing more research, most people actually prefer to Winston/Winchester draft with 120 like I've started doing.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Huge update! The guildgate were cut for a few more 5-color lands, one more card in each color, and a slight expansion of the artifact section. They have not been missed, although mana fixing is slightly harder to come by now. (5-color lands like City of Brass do tons of work though because they are so much more versatile.)
Out > In
White:
Student of Warfare (Added)
Banisher Priest > Silverblade Paladin
Eidolon of Countless Battles > Hero of Bladehold
Emeria Angel > Midnight Haunting
Journey to Nowhere > Martial Coup
Path of Bravery > Dictate of Heliod
Soltari Champion > Mirror Entity
Precinct Captain > Armageddon
Black:
Hymn to Tourach (Added)
Despise > Gravecrawler
Nekrataal > Recurring Nightmare
Nantuko Shade > Gnarled Scarhide
Barter in Blood > Bitterblossom
Dauthi Marauder > Master of the Feast
Diabolic Servitude > Reanimate
Ultimate Price > Go for the Throat
Tragic Slip > Snuff Out
Blue:
Mystical Tutor (Added)
Blue Sun's Zenith > Opposition
Frost Titan > Aetherling
Green:
Rancor (Added)
Viridian Emissary > Strangleroot Geist
Farhaven Elf > Masked Admirers
Somberwald Sage > Kitchen Finks
Moldgraf Monstrosity > Pelakka Wurm
Yavimaya Elder > Eternal Witness
Indrik Stomphowler > Deranged Hermit
Overrun > Boon Satyr
Kodama's Reach > Troll Ascetic
Red:
Earthquake (Added)
Gore-House Chainwalker > Torch Fiend
Flames of the Firebrand > Arc Trail
Zealous Conscripts > Grim Lavamancer
Tattermunge Maniac > Stromkirk Noble
Staggershock > Firebolt
Colorless:
Strip Mine (Added)
Ankh of Mishra (Added)
Tangle Wire (Added)
Pristine Talisman > Coalition Relic
Basalt Monolith > Gilded Lotus
Worn Powerstone > Solemn Simulacrum
Loxodon Warhammer > Grafted Wargear
Mind Stone > Skullclamp
Lands:
City of Brass (Added)
Grand Coliseum (Added)
Azorius Guildgate (Removed)
Boros Guildgate (Removed)
Dimir Guildgate (Removed)
Golgari Guildgate (Removed)
Gruul Guildgate (Removed)
Izzet Guildgate (Removed)
Orzhov Guildgate (Removed)
Rakdos Guildgate (Removed)
Selesnya Guildgate (Removed)
Simic Guildgate (Removed)
Dragonskull Summit > Sulfurous Springs
Clifftop Retreat > Battlefield Forge
Multicolor:
Spike Jester > Blightning
Life // Death > Lotleth Troll
In addition, the power level of the cube has increased significantly - as has the budget. The lowly $100 starting budget has been thrashed and the cube is now valued at $277 shipped on TCGplayer (damn Bitterblossom). With a cheap aggro creature replacing Bitterblossom, the cube would be under $240. Tokens finally feels like a properly supported archetype and are a blast to draft. It tends to be base white running whatever other colors it has to for removal and additional token support cards. Reanimator is not hard combo deck like in some larger Powered cubes, but it performs well as a value-based addition in midrange and control decks.
So far the improvements seem vast. Additionally, doing Winston/Winchester drafts with 120 cards instead of 90 and also Grid drafting has improved the deck quality in 2-mans to a normal cube level. The cube really shines in 4-man drafts with 5 packs of 9 cards though. Every archetype feels viable and well supported when I can draft with 4 people.
However, aggro is still having trouble with that final punch. Part of the problem is that it's very easy to transition into midrange if your opponent starts drafting aggro when drafting with just 2 people. That might not be an issue except that midrange has a greater than 90% winrate against aggro, and that seems too high. Aggro vs control matchups haven't happened at all period because of the style of drafting and because most 4-man drafts have been played as multiplayer. Another problem with aggro is that White/Black aggro doesn't seem to function at all due to the harsh mana costs in white and black and the lack of reach. Red/White and Red/Black seem to be the only viable aggro decks at the moment, and I would like to expand that.
Overall I'm very happy with this update. Archetype diversity has improved and the cube is even more fun to play. Control is less soul-crushing because non-blue colors have gotten more cards to bring them into line. If I could just get aggro into shape, I would be very happy with the cube balance.
The primary function of this cube will be 2-man Winchester and Winston drafts with an occasional 4-man normal draft. I want it to be as powerful as possible while still making sense in those formats and sticking to budget.
I would love to support Artifact.dek as it's my favorite archetype, but I just couldn't find cards that made it happen in my budget range.The way my aggro is set-up right now, I'm pushing most aggro decks to try and be Red but allowing some support in every color but Blue. (And the green support is fairly light, I imagine "aggro" in RG will be more of a fast midrange usually.)
In my lands, I'm trying wtwlf123's approach of cutting one card in each color to make room for the Vivid Lands. This should help make sure each deck has appropriate mana fixing even when only 90/180 cards are drafted.
Cube:
1x Dryad Militant
1x Soldier of the Pantheon
1x Student of Warfare
1x Accorder Paladin
1x Daring Skyjek
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Blade Splicer
1x Flickerwisp
1x Mirror Entity
1x Silverblade Paladin
1x Hero of Bladehold
1x Cloudgoat Ranger
1x Sun Titan
1x Sunblast Angel
White Instant
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Midnight Haunting
White Sorcery
1x Spectral Procession
1x Armageddon
1x Day of Judgment
1x Martial Coup
White Enchantment
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Dictate of Heliod
White Enchantment Artifact
1x Spear of Heliod
Blue Creature
1x Enclave Cryptologist
1x Augur of Bolas
1x Looter il-Kor
1x Omenspeaker
1x Man-o'-War
1x Sea Gate Oracle
1x Dungeon Geists
1x Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1x Mulldrifter
1x Aetherling
Blue Instant
1x Brainstorm
1x Force Spike
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Counterspell
1x Into the Roil
1x Mana Leak
1x Miscalculation
1x Forbid
1x Condescend
Blue Sorcery
1x Preordain
1x Deep Analysis
1x Upheaval
Blue Enchantment
1x Control Magic
1x Opposition
Blue Land
1x Shelldock Isle
Black Creature
1x Carnophage
1x Carrion Feeder
1x Diregraf Ghoul
1x Gravecrawler
1x Blood Scrivener
1x Oona's Prowler
1x Bone Shredder
1x Vampire Nighthawk
1x Skinrender
1x Shriekmaw
1x Grave Titan
1x Doom Blade
1x Go for the Throat
1x Dismember
1x Snuff Out
Black Sorcery
1x Duress
1x Reanimate
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Stupor
Black Enchantment
1x Animate Dead
1x Bitterblossom
1x Curse of Shallow Graves
1x Recurring Nightmare
Black Enchantment Creature
1x Gnarled Scarhide
1x Master of the Feast
Red Creature
1x Firedrinker Satyr
1x Goblin Guide
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Rakdos Cackler
1x Stromkirk Noble
1x Hellspark Elemental
1x Keldon Marauders
1x Lightning Mauler
1x Stormblood Berserker
1x Torch Fiend
1x Splatter Thug
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Hellrider
1x Inferno Titan
Red Artifact
1x Shrine of Burning Rage
Red Instant
1x Burst Lightning
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Incinerate
1x Magma Jet
1x Char
Red Sorcery
1x Firebolt
1x Arc Trail
1x Devil's Play
1x Earthquake
Red Enchantment
1x Sulfuric Vortex
Green Creature
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Joraga Treespeaker
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Strangleroot Geist
1x Wall of Roots
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Briarhorn
1x Deadbridge Goliath
1x Masked Admirers
1x Acidic Slime
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Thragtusk
1x Pelakka Wurm
1x Terastodon
Green Artifact
1x Birthing Pod
Green Sorcery
1x Explore
1x Rampant Growth
1x Cultivate
1x Rancor
1x Curse of Predation
Green Enchantment Creature
1x Boon Satyr
Green Land
1x Treetop Village
Azorius
1x Azorius Signet
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Azorius Chancery
Dimir
1x Shadowmage Infiltrator
1x Dimir Signet
1x Dimir Aqueduct
Rakdos
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Blightning
1x Sulfurous Springs
Gruul
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Ghor-Clan Rampager
1x Rootbound Crag
Selesnya
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Armada Wurm
1x Stirring Wildwood
Orzhov
1x Lingering Souls
1x Unburial Rites
1x Caves of Koilos
Golgari
1x Lotleth Troll
1x Putrefy
1x Woodland Cemetery
Simic
1x Trygon Predator
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Temple of Mystery
Izzet
1x Fire // Ice
1x Izzet Charm
1x Sulfur Falls
Boros
1x Figure of Destiny
1x Boros Charm
1x Battlefield Forge
Colourless Artifact Creature
1x Porcelain Legionnaire
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Precursor Golem
1x Myr Battlesphere
Colourless Artifact
1x Bonesplitter
1x Skullclamp
1x Ankh of Mishra
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Coalition Relic
1x Grafted Wargear
1x Mimic Vat
1x Tangle Wire
1x Gilded Lotus
Colourless Land
1x City of Brass
Colourless Land Land
1x Evolving Wilds
Colourless Land
1x Grand Coliseum
Colourless Land Land
1x Mishra's Factory
Colourless Land
1x Strip Mine
Colourless Land Land
1x Terramorphic Expanse
Colourless Land
1x Vivid Crag
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Grove
1x Vivid Marsh
1x Vivid Meadow
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
I think at first glance you are going to have to drastically reduce the number of cards in your multicolor section of your cube. Coming off of the Ravnica block everyone is pumped about the guilds and their identities - but 40 is a really tough number to slot. You are stifling the archetypes and strengths of the colors and their roles. I only run 10 in my 180 and 10 dual lands. Pull 30 of the multicolor and use them to strengthen he archetypes you want to see "strong" in each color. Add a couple more color fixing lands that can be used by any color - like City of Brass to get your color fixing up to 10. That will give back 28 card slots. Give 5 cards back to each color and use the last three for artifacts. If you do this I think that alone will go a long way to giving you two color decks when the draft hits.
Think about being half way through the draft with two colors chosen for your deck - depending on the draft the odds say that there are 18 dead cards and up to potentially 36 left that you are going to sideboard or be forced to splash a third color to support.
As far as specifics, I usually tell people to focus on cards with more than one use depending on the situation. The command cycle is a great example - Primal, Cryptic, Profane are the three I would consider. These can be pricey so maybe try and trade for them. Bow of Nylea is another good example that may be more budget friendly. Creatures with ETB effects are important as well, but it looks like you have that covered pretty well.
I think you are closer than you think. Play with the multicolor section and let me know.
I like your thought process of running versatile cards and I've taken it into account somewhat, but in general my problem is having enough cards even moreso than having the right ones currently.
Currently we are doing 120 card drafts instead of 90 card drafts and that has instantly fixed the problem. We are getting roughly 23-28 cards in our primary 2-colors with this amount and my last few drafts deciding whether to play 2-colors or splash for a third has been a real decision instead of a forced one. I'm also testing an increase in aggro cards and removal of some of the green ramp/fixing. For the moment this is working, but I do still want to improve it.
Thanks for the feedback!
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
If you can't find a City of Brass wait a few weeks and grab a Mana Confluence - almost the same card and should be easier to nail down
Do you stick to 90 card piles in when you Winston draft Geb? I imagine it's closer to possible because you have 20% more colored cards than me. (Which would improve the 18 cards in 2-colors situation to more like 21-22 and 2-color would sometimes be possible although probably still stretching it.) From what I've read doing more research, most people actually prefer to Winston/Winchester draft with 120 like I've started doing.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Out > In
White:
Student of Warfare (Added)
Banisher Priest > Silverblade Paladin
Eidolon of Countless Battles > Hero of Bladehold
Emeria Angel > Midnight Haunting
Journey to Nowhere > Martial Coup
Path of Bravery > Dictate of Heliod
Soltari Champion > Mirror Entity
Precinct Captain > Armageddon
Black:
Hymn to Tourach (Added)
Despise > Gravecrawler
Nekrataal > Recurring Nightmare
Nantuko Shade > Gnarled Scarhide
Barter in Blood > Bitterblossom
Dauthi Marauder > Master of the Feast
Diabolic Servitude > Reanimate
Ultimate Price > Go for the Throat
Tragic Slip > Snuff Out
Blue:
Mystical Tutor (Added)
Blue Sun's Zenith > Opposition
Frost Titan > Aetherling
Green:
Rancor (Added)
Viridian Emissary > Strangleroot Geist
Farhaven Elf > Masked Admirers
Somberwald Sage > Kitchen Finks
Moldgraf Monstrosity > Pelakka Wurm
Yavimaya Elder > Eternal Witness
Indrik Stomphowler > Deranged Hermit
Overrun > Boon Satyr
Kodama's Reach > Troll Ascetic
Red:
Earthquake (Added)
Gore-House Chainwalker > Torch Fiend
Flames of the Firebrand > Arc Trail
Zealous Conscripts > Grim Lavamancer
Tattermunge Maniac > Stromkirk Noble
Staggershock > Firebolt
Colorless:
Strip Mine (Added)
Ankh of Mishra (Added)
Tangle Wire (Added)
Pristine Talisman > Coalition Relic
Basalt Monolith > Gilded Lotus
Worn Powerstone > Solemn Simulacrum
Loxodon Warhammer > Grafted Wargear
Mind Stone > Skullclamp
Lands:
City of Brass (Added)
Grand Coliseum (Added)
Azorius Guildgate (Removed)
Boros Guildgate (Removed)
Dimir Guildgate (Removed)
Golgari Guildgate (Removed)
Gruul Guildgate (Removed)
Izzet Guildgate (Removed)
Orzhov Guildgate (Removed)
Rakdos Guildgate (Removed)
Selesnya Guildgate (Removed)
Simic Guildgate (Removed)
Dragonskull Summit > Sulfurous Springs
Clifftop Retreat > Battlefield Forge
Multicolor:
Spike Jester > Blightning
Life // Death > Lotleth Troll
In addition, the power level of the cube has increased significantly - as has the budget. The lowly $100 starting budget has been thrashed and the cube is now valued at $277 shipped on TCGplayer (damn Bitterblossom). With a cheap aggro creature replacing Bitterblossom, the cube would be under $240. Tokens finally feels like a properly supported archetype and are a blast to draft. It tends to be base white running whatever other colors it has to for removal and additional token support cards. Reanimator is not hard combo deck like in some larger Powered cubes, but it performs well as a value-based addition in midrange and control decks.
So far the improvements seem vast. Additionally, doing Winston/Winchester drafts with 120 cards instead of 90 and also Grid drafting has improved the deck quality in 2-mans to a normal cube level. The cube really shines in 4-man drafts with 5 packs of 9 cards though. Every archetype feels viable and well supported when I can draft with 4 people.
However, aggro is still having trouble with that final punch. Part of the problem is that it's very easy to transition into midrange if your opponent starts drafting aggro when drafting with just 2 people. That might not be an issue except that midrange has a greater than 90% winrate against aggro, and that seems too high. Aggro vs control matchups haven't happened at all period because of the style of drafting and because most 4-man drafts have been played as multiplayer. Another problem with aggro is that White/Black aggro doesn't seem to function at all due to the harsh mana costs in white and black and the lack of reach. Red/White and Red/Black seem to be the only viable aggro decks at the moment, and I would like to expand that.
Overall I'm very happy with this update. Archetype diversity has improved and the cube is even more fun to play. Control is less soul-crushing because non-blue colors have gotten more cards to bring them into line. If I could just get aggro into shape, I would be very happy with the cube balance.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981