Fair enough he is a little slow, but I guess the flexibility is enough for me.
Honestly I haven't had much personal experience with, he always seems to end up in other peoples decks.
At least that shows that Mike is eminently playable, if he makes the cut so regularly in your 360. I can see both sides of the argument, but I really like scalable creatures - I also like Chimeric Mass more than most. Of course, Mass is 1) colorless, and 2) has on curve p/t, so yeah there's the other side again.
Greater Gargadon is amazing for us, time and time again. You don't need any combo with it, just suspend it and you get additional value out of your opponents removal and he has always to factor in a hasty big creature when he wants to tap out.
Mikaeus, the Lunarch was surprisingly good. I thought it would be too slow as an Anthem and overcosted as a beater, but the fact that he is both plus that you can drop him early and grow him later made him a solid performer for us.
I was skeptical when it comes to Thornling as well, but I like it actually better now that we have more ramp. It can do quite a few things if you have the mana available.
Crucible is an important card for us, but if it does not work for you then cutting it is the right thing to do. The same goes for Spellskite, I guess. Finally, I like Crystal Ball more than Top or Scroll Rack in some decks. Too bad they did not make it cost 2, then its inclusion would not be debatable I think. As is, the investment is quite steep.
Greater Gargadon is amazing for us, time and time again. You don't need any combo with it, just suspend it and you get additional value out of your opponents removal and he has always to factor in a hasty big creature when he wants to tap out.
Strange how people can have completely different experiences with the same card. I played it in several drafts, usually without combo, one time with two of them (Balance and Armageddon), and it failed to significantly impact the game almost without exception (I think it at least contributed to the win once). Gargadon's abysmal performance reinforces my natural dislike of suspend, I'm actually really glad to not have to see both Gargadon and the suspend ability anymore.
Mikaeus, the Lunarch was surprisingly good. I thought it would be too slow as an Anthem and overcosted as a beater, but the fact that he is both plus that you can drop him early and grow him later made him a solid performer for us.
Keep those positive reports on Mikaeus coming, I might yet convince Hicham to give him some more time to prove himself!
I was skeptical when it comes to Thornling as well, but I like it actually better now that we have more ramp. It can do quite a few things if you have the mana available.
Thornling is great if you have a ton (7+) of mana, no doubt. It might be better than Vorapede or one of the other fatties. What we like about Vorapede is that you can drop it without regret as soon as you hit 5 mana, which happens turn 4 most of the times, sometimes turn 3, and doesn't require any more mana afterwards, while with Thornling you better have at least G open for indestructibility (making it cost effectively 3GGG) and it needs constant maintenance afterwards. So Vorapede seems better in aggressive ramp decks. Terastodon on the other hand is expensive, but has such amazing impact and for that is loved in hard-core ramp decks (preferably with Rofellos and Natural Order). Maybe Thornling could find a slot in between Vorapede (for aggressive ramp) and Woodfall Primus (for hard-core ramp) as a more flexible card that could fit in either style ramp deck.
Crucible is an important card for us, but if it does not work for you then cutting it is the right thing to do. The same goes for Spellskite, I guess. Finally, I like Crystal Ball more than Top or Scroll Rack in some decks. Too bad they did not make it cost 2, then its inclusion would not be debatable I think. As is, the investment is quite steep.
Crucible is another card like Gargadon I guess... It didn't pan out for us.
I have no hard feelings with Spellskite, but Hicham doesn't like it much and I had to admit that its performance hasn't been spectacular (although still acceptable). If it turns out that we really need more defensive creatures we it might re-appear later, after all it's colorless.
I love the simple design of Crystal Ball, and repeatable scry is very strong. Unfortunately, the Ball suffered a lot from 24th card syndrome, being this close to making the main deck but usually sitting in sideboards, and if it did make it in it'd often be sided out after the first game - because, you know, you gotta cut something to get that silver bullet in... I really, really wish they'd costed it at 2, it would make a world of difference.
I think the first card to go would be Complicate. It is amazing as a cycling Force Spike, but a three mana soft counter felt rather clunky for us. The second spell is tricky, possible cuts are one of the card selection spells (Impulse), one of the expensive finishers (Capsize, Jace, Memory Adept) or one of the bounce spells (Repeal, Into the Roil). Another option would be to drop the blue artifact package (Tolarian Academy, Tezzeret the Seeker), but I imagine it would be rather strong in a powered cube the way you draft it.
I like most creatures in your list, though Merfolk Looter seems a bit out of place. Looting is powerful, but is it powerful enough on a non-Looter il-Kor card? I never played Ludevic's Test Subject in cube (because I don't play double faced cards), it looks powerful but also fragile. I would not cut any other creature from your list, and of course preferably cut spells for more creatures.
I think the first card to go would be Complicate. It is amazing as a cycling Force Spike, but a three mana soft counter felt rather clunky for us. The second spell is tricky, possible cuts are one of the card selection spells (Impulse), one of the expensive finishers (Capsize, Jace, Memory Adept) or one of the bounce spells (Repeal, Into the Roil). Another option would be to drop the blue artifact package (Tolarian Academy, Tezzeret the Seeker), but I imagine it would be rather strong in a powered cube the way you draft it.
I like most creatures in your list, though Merfolk Looter seems a bit out of place. Looting is powerful, but is it powerful enough on a non-Looter il-Kor card? I never played Ludevic's Test Subject in cube (because I don't play double faced cards), it looks powerful but also fragile. I would not cut any other creature from your list, and of course preferably cut spells for more creatures.
Test Subject is pretty sweet but it depends on if you play him early as a wall of wood with big upside or if you play him as an echo fattie. I'm not quite sure which is better to be honest. But my experience with him is in a much more casual environment..I doubt he translates well to Cubes that play all good cards..but if anybody can say I'd love to hear how hes done!
I think the first card to go would be Complicate. It is amazing as a cycling Force Spike, but a three mana soft counter felt rather clunky for us. The second spell is tricky, possible cuts are one of the card selection spells (Impulse), one of the expensive finishers (Capsize, Jace, Memory Adept) or one of the bounce spells (Repeal, Into the Roil). Another option would be to drop the blue artifact package (Tolarian Academy, Tezzeret the Seeker), but I imagine it would be rather strong in a powered cube the way you draft it.
I like most creatures in your list, though Merfolk Looter seems a bit out of place. Looting is powerful, but is it powerful enough on a non-Looter il-Kor card? I never played Ludevic's Test Subject in cube (because I don't play double faced cards), it looks powerful but also fragile. I would not cut any other creature from your list, and of course preferably cut spells for more creatures.
Most of that sounds reasonable. I agree that cutting spells for creatures would be preferable. My chopping block for the blue spells section consists of Complicate, Repeal, and Jace, Memory Adept. Of those I'd miss Repeal the most, and I think Jace 3 is the card that offers the least added value to the cube (being just a finisher, and not a very interesting one at that).
From the creatures section, I agree that Merfolk Looter and Test Subject are at the bottom (although I don't know for sure about the egg), but I don't think subbing them out for Mindshrieker or Dungeon Geists would improve the cube.
So my suggestion would be to cut Complicate and Jace 3 for Mindshrieker and Dungeon Geists, that wouldn't hurt control much and would add some support to tempo significantly. Thoughts?
Thanks for taking the time for your detailed advice, Konfusius.
Test Subject is pretty sweet but it depends on if you play him early as a wall of wood with big upside or if you play him as an echo fattie. I'm not quite sure which is better to be honest. But my experience with him is in a much more casual environment..I doubt he translates well to Cubes that play all good cards..but if anybody can say I'd love to hear how hes done!
You say you don't know which way you prefer it, as an early blocker or a finisher. I've got some good news for you: you don't need to choose, it will do both. And as a bonus, upgrading it to a finisher doesn't take up countermana. It just made the main deck in one of my decks (see deck list for Seat 2 on the previous page), so I may have some feedback on it soon. It may not be good enough for the 450 level, but I do think it's definitely being underestimated on these boards.
Test Subject is just a really bad Spellskite that can't attack with a sword.
Heck blue finishers shouldn't be able to die from Lightning Bolts.
Wow. They're completely different cards, except from sharing a CMC. That evaluation seems way off.
Being able to act as a finisher is a huge upside for a 2-drop, and one that Spellskite does not share. If it gets offed by a Bolt, big deal. There aren't many 2-drops that can survive bolt, I don't see the point.
Not saying that Test Subject is the bee's knees, 'cause I don't know yet how it will perform. I do know however that 2-drops make deck lists quite easily in general, that Test Subject gets transformed scarily fast, and that 13/13 trample creatures finish games in a hurry. So yeah, I'm testing it.
So my suggestion would be to cut Complicate and Jace 3 for Mindshrieker and Dungeon Geists, that wouldn't hurt control much and would add some support to tempo significantly. Thoughts?
Of all the cards I suggested, I would cut these two first as well I think. So I like it
Wow. They're completely different cards, except from sharing a CMC. That evaluation seems way off.
Being able to act as a finisher is a huge upside for a 2-drop, and one that Spellskite does not share. If it gets offed by a Bolt, big deal. There aren't many 2-drops that can survive bolt, I don't see the point.
Not saying that Test Subject is the bee's knees, 'cause I don't know yet how it will perform. I do know however that 2-drops make deck lists quite easily in general, that Test Subject gets transformed scarily fast, and that 13/13 trample creatures finish games in a hurry. So yeah, I'm testing it.
My cube is unpowered and is missing many of blue's pricier staples, but our lists are still fairly close. I have some more gaps to fill in with suboptimal cards, but: Ludevich's Test Subject has worked very well in my cube. It isn't near as good as Spellskite of course, but it fits very well into blue. You can drop it T2 to slow down an aggro rush a bit, and you don't mind much if it gets bolted. Lategame, you can flip it easily with unused mana during the opponent's EOT. Hey, even Usman said it was his last cut from blue during the Innistrad update, and that he hated to cut it.
I just added the final deck of our Rochester draft, click here to go directly to the post containing the full deck lists.
My pre-draft review of the decks. Seats 1-3-5-7 were drafted and built by Hicham, seats 2-4-6-8 by myself.
Seat 1 - Rbw Wildfire
This deck looks really scary. It has lots of acceleration, lots of burn and sweepers to stay alive, and great finishers. Might whiff from time to time, drawing only accel and nothing to ramp into, but that's hardly a complaint as any deck can draw badly. I think I'd try and get Torch Fiend and Kargan Dragonlord in the main deck, cutting Thoughtseize and Pyroclasm.
Blue control who can ignore most of the burn and keep its counters for the big threats seems like the most unfavorable matchup for this deck, also Ascetic Troll or especially Thrun will spell trouble.
Seat 2 - Ub Aggro-Control
Solid deck against midrange and control, I could see it having trouble against aggro although the creature stealers will definitely help there.
Seat 3 - WG Tokens
This deck can produce lots of small and big threats very fast and has some nice synergies going (the Skullclamp in particular looks very scary to me). The deck is probably vulnerable to sweepers and doesn't have a ton of answers, which I guess is usual for this archetype.
Seat 4 - RWu Blink
I actually have no idea how to evaluate this deck. Could be great, could flop big time. Whatever the case, I look forward to seeing it in action.
Seat 5 - UB Control
This is actually almost a reanimator build. That's interesting and could lead to some blow-outs, but it looks a mite too slow to me and it could have problems getting rid of stuff. I don't think this deck will make top 4.
Seat 6: Mono-green aggressive ramp
This deck can produce some ridiculously explosive starts, but might have trouble if it fails to draw enough serious threats. Otherwise the only weak point is creature removal, which is normal for mono-green, but doesn't have to be a problem. The deck will put lots of pressure on the opponent and has some broken equipment, and the newly re-added Worldly Tutor looks right at home in this build. The deck is somewhat simplistic, but the disruption, trolls and planeswalkers should make the deck competitive even against control. I'm looking forward to piloting this deck.
Seat 7: mono-black aggro-disruption
I think this is the best deck at the table. If you would ask me to build the perfect monoblack aggro deck from our cube, it would likely look much like this. It's insanely fast, has tons of disruption and should have no trouble winning matches with the average hand.
Seat 8 - UW Tempo
This deck hesitated for too long between going control or tempo, and it shows. It's a reasonable deck, but I think it will fall short when compared with the other decks in the draft. The deck needs a few more cheap creatures to be competitive I think, still I'll gladly pilot the deck.
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Feel free to comment on the decks, critique deck building choices or place your bets on the draft outcome!
I wouldn't cut Jace 3. I know it's oppressively powerful, but that's the fun of the cube, right?
The reason for cutting it would certainly not be power level. Jace 3 is undeniably powerful, but it has a rather limited role in cube, which is a perfectly legitimate reason to cut something.
EDIT: sorry for double-posting but it felt wrong to merge it with the giant post above. Geez, I worked almost an hour on that thing.
Rbw Wildfire: The deck seems really solid, I'm not too experienced with the archetype but it seems like it would want 1 more mana rock. Seems to have the scariest top end of any deck.
Ub aggro control: Seems fairly solid but runs too many 4+ spells for my tastes. Looks like it waffled between being the big mana artifact deck and an aggro one. Remand is the Ultimate blue tempo spell, sideboarding it seems bad.
WG tokens: Seems ok, the deck seems well drafted I'm just not sure how powerful the archetype is next to the other decks. Also Strangleroot Giest seems better than either of the walls while I'm sitting here making snap judgments.
RWu Blink: This deck seems like it's one or two more good blink targets from being insane. Hard for me to judge as I have no experience with Red blink. Should be able to steal some games with aggro draws.
UB control: Has an insane top end second only to the wildfire deck, and could possibly have some beat down draws with Serendib Efreet and just protecting it with it's wealth of answers. I really like this deck.
Mono Green: I don't see this deck having a ton of success, it seems like it will be really inconsistent. Some times it will have a turn 2 rofellos followed by a turn 3 Plow under and just be unbeatable other times it will draw all ramp. Has little disruption so It's all in on it's own plan. Again just seems so inconsistent.
Mono Black: Seems awesome, the mix of disruption and aggro beats looks great. Might struggle a bit with the more mid rangy decks, but seems really solid.
UW tempo: It's UW tempo, I'm currently in fanboy mode towards the archetype so I can't give any real feedback to it other than it looks solid, but wanting another counterspell or two.
Top 4 picks
1: Mono black aggro
2: Wildfire
3: UB control
4: UW Tempo
Hicham, don't be lazy and post your analysis. Chop chop!
Thanks a ton grapefruit! Funny how my bottom 2 made your top 4. The draft is looking to be very interesting in any case. Deck building seemed to be a good bit harder than before, which is already a good sign.
I do think it's a big strange that you list inconsistency as a crippling flaw for the mono-green deck, yet predict a number 2 finish for the deck that has the same issue (except in that deck it's more severe because mana rocks can't turn sideways or carry equipment). In any case, I'll do my best to prove you wrong by mopping up the field with mono-green!
Green has the same flaws of being inconsistent without cards like wildfire to catch back up if it falls behind. I might be over estimating the inconsistency of green and underestimating the inconsistency of Wildfire. I would love to be wrong about that though as the mono green deck is sweet, so many of my favorite cards are in there.
Green has the same flaws of being inconsistent without cards like wildfire to catch back up if it falls behind. I might be over estimating the inconsistency of green and underestimating the inconsistency of Wildfire. I would love to be wrong about that though as the mono green deck is sweet, so many of my favorite cards are in there.
Looking at the Wildfire deck it has three things to ramp into, two of which are peripheral colors. The removal is very solid, but I'm not sure.
This wasn't the most elegant of matches. Game 1 was jinxed by grapefruit, I got an opening hand with land and accelerators and didn't see a threat until I'd already lost the game. Game 2 I had an opening hand full of great cards, but no accelerators, turns out that was enough to win. Tarmogoyf and Ascetic Troll + Rancor was really hard to deal with for the red deck, which also just had a bit of a very mediocre draw. 1-1. The deciding game was the most interesting but it was the green deck that took the honors with some sick Garruk action: first Garruk Wildspeaker, which made 2 beasts and was then taken out, then Garruk, Primal Hunter, who made another beast and went on to draw 5 courtesy of a Rancored beast token. That put me sufficiently ahead to win the game and the match.
Wildfire vs Green: 1-2
Match 2 - WG Tokens vs UW Tempo
This match was over pretty soon, the tempo deck did some cool things but couldn't inconvenience the tokens deck, which proceeded to do some crazy stuff with Gideon Jura, Sun Titan & co. One of the games saw a Black Lotus produce a turn 2 Gideon, and the sick thing is the tempo deck almost won that game. I also found out that Mother of Runes is quite the nombo with Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (it didn't matter anymore at that point, but I hadn't seen that interaction before).
Tokens vs UW Tempo: 2-0
Match 3 - UB Control vs Ub Aggro-Control
This was a pretty awesome match, too much happened to relate in any coherent fashion. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas was an all-star for me, as were Snapcaster Mage (flashing back Force Spike) and Phyrexian Metamorph. Ludevic's Test Subject was great, it was extremely threatening which is just unheard of for a blue 2-drop. Talisman of Dominance has already been much better than Dimir Signet, so I'm definitely glad we made that swap. In the end, the more passive control deck was pretty much steam-rolled by the aggressive control deck.
UB Control vs Ub Aggro-Control: 0-2
Match 4 - Mono-Black Aggro-Disruption vs RWu Blink
This was definitely the most surprising match from round 1. Game 1, the blink deck was actually faster than the aggro deck with Figure of Destiny and Savannah Lions. The black deck figures it'd come back by using Animate Dead on the Moltensteel Masticore that got Hymn to Tourached to my 'yard, only to see Flickerwisp land on my side. OMG, hands down the most awesome 'wisp I've ever cast! Game 2 was really strange, mono-black destroyed lands like a beast with some discard as icing but I had Grim Lavamancer which now had plenty of fuel, and took care of his first 2 aggro critters with a well-timed Forked Bolt (ouch). That was enough to draw out the game sufficiently to draw into lands and start doing stuff that the aggro deck couldn't match. Which led to the very surprising outcome:
Mono-Black Aggro-Disruption vs RWu Blink: 0-2
I probably forgot plenty of cool plays but this should give an idea. I'm really stoked about the coolness of this draft's decks! Especially mine, obviously
Thanks for reading, please check back later for more reports on the draft!
Thanks for the reports guys. I am interested to see the positive performance of Ludivic's Test Subject having just added it for testing (it hasn't come up yet). It's a new take on the blue finisher where you can guarantee having counter mana up if needs be, and also not be a dead card early doors. It's very unique, and I like that.
This match-up started out rather awkwardly, with both deck losing once due to bad draws. Admittedly, the very first game would have been quite hard to win for me, facing Kitchen Finks and Birds of Paradise on turn 1 (courtesy of Black Lotus), with a Spectral Procession ready to cast turn 2 (thanks to the BoP). This means it came down to game 3, and luckily this was a properly exciting cube game. Mono-green started out better, until suddenly Mirror Entity hit the table. That is one sick card in a token deck. I went down fighting, but down I went.
WG Tokens vs Mono-Green AggroRamp: 2-1
Match 6 - Ub Aggro-Control vs RWu Blink
Two of my decks faced eachother in this match, the result of winning 3 out of 4 matches in the first round. Hicham piloted the blue control deck. The first game, the control deck started out great with a first turn Bitterblossom off of a Mox Jet. The blink deck managed to put some early pressure with a Mogg War Marshal (echo was paid) followed by Ajani Goldmane, making the goblins wolfsize, and Time Walking for another attack. The blue deck was taking damage from the 'blossom obviously so was already below 10 life when I went for the kill with Siege-Gang Commander. Unfortunately, the Commander was stolen with Gilded Drake, and the Drake was stolen with Sower of Temptation. Bummer. At this point we each found ourselves in the position of not being to be able to mass-attack without getting killed on the counterstrike, except that he had his faeries that I could block only one at a time with my Celestial Colonnade, and I did not find my Lightning Bolt for the kill. A great game. Game 2, the control deck started out more slowly, just playing some manlands and passing the turn. Blink started out with a first turn Kor Skyfisher (thanks to the Mox Pearl that seems to come stapled to it) and followed up with a Sword of Feast and Famine. Maybe not the most scary sword to face, but scary enough and control hates to discard. Turn 3 saw Ajani Vengeant hit the scene, who went to work on tapping down his Creeping Tar Pit. The blue deck tried to weaken Ajani by attacking with an animated Faerie Conclave, but this time I did have the Lightning Bolt. A short while later the one-sided Armageddon from Ajani's ultimate started to loom large. Luckily for him, Ludevic's Test Subject comes up, and is again immediately a huge threat. He takes out Ajani before his ultimate could happen, but is then put back into his egg with Flickerwisp - I know, strange flavor but I was happy enough to be able to play it (the second stunt of the day for the 'wisp). The control deck has its back against the wall now, finds no amazing out and dies soon after. I'm not sure if I remember it quite correctly, but I think the blink deck just had a great aggro start in the deciding game and overwhelmed the control deck. Anyhow, this was a great match that ended:
Ub Aggro-Control vs RWu Blink: 1-2
Match 7 - UB Control vs UW Tempo
The first elimination match (we play double elimination). The first game saw the tempo deck play Kira, Great Glass-Spinner turn 2 off of a Mox Emerald and attempted to (virtually) win the game the next turn by blowing up all lands with an Armageddon. I was out of luck though, Hicham calmly cycles Complicate, countering the Armageddon and drawing a card. Soon after, the superior card quality in the control deck just blows me away. Game 2 saw me playing Library of Alexandria turn 3 and skipping a single turn to get to that 7th card. I drew plenty of cards and managed to do a good bit of damage, but I was simply outclassed on card quality and couldn't exert enough pressure to bring the control deck in trouble. A convincing win for the control deck, and a first elimination.
UB Control vs UW Tempo: 2-0
Match 8 - Rbw Wildfire vs Mono-Black Aggro-Disruption
An unfortunate match-up for Hicham, who saw two of his decks face off to avoid elimination. It did turn out a fine match. The first game saw the Wildfire deck score a textbook control vs aggro win: some accelerators, controlling damage with some burn, then take over with top-end power houses. The black deck drew ok but was just outclassed. The second game was the reverse, with the mono-black deck showing how to overwhelm a control deck, with lost of early pressure mixed with some disruption to take the second game in style. The deciding game saw the mono-black aggro deck prevail with another nicely executed aggro game, helped out some by Dark Confidant (which was killed once but drew a couple cards after coming with Necromancy). The control deck did its best, wiping the board with Crater Hellion, but he was already low with life and dropped Graveborn Muse, meanwhile holding a mean Snuff Out to kill the Hellion right after his second installment was paid, which meant game, set and match. The awesome Innistrad block 1-drops have really done some nice work this match, and Oona's Prowler also got through for a lot of damage. A deserved win for this fine deck; Wildfire is eliminated.
Rbw Wildfire vs Mono-Black Aggro-Disruption: 1-2
The results of round 2 mean that the final will be played between WG Tokens and RWu Blink, a rather unexpected outcome.
Ludevic's Test Subject came up twice in 5 games, and was a really big threat both times. I think that's quite amazing for a blue 2-drop. The testing sample isn't big enough yet to reach a clear verdict, but it's certainly looking promising. It transforms absurdly fast and is an absurdly large threat, with instant speed level-up. I like it.
I think the Test Subject would probably be very good at 450. Games tend to be a bit slower there and the early blocker can be useful against 2/x guys. Seems like a winner.
Honestly I haven't had much personal experience with, he always seems to end up in other peoples decks.
At least that shows that Mike is eminently playable, if he makes the cut so regularly in your 360. I can see both sides of the argument, but I really like scalable creatures - I also like Chimeric Mass more than most. Of course, Mass is 1) colorless, and 2) has on curve p/t, so yeah there's the other side again.
Greater Gargadon is amazing for us, time and time again. You don't need any combo with it, just suspend it and you get additional value out of your opponents removal and he has always to factor in a hasty big creature when he wants to tap out.
Mikaeus, the Lunarch was surprisingly good. I thought it would be too slow as an Anthem and overcosted as a beater, but the fact that he is both plus that you can drop him early and grow him later made him a solid performer for us.
I was skeptical when it comes to Thornling as well, but I like it actually better now that we have more ramp. It can do quite a few things if you have the mana available.
Crucible is an important card for us, but if it does not work for you then cutting it is the right thing to do. The same goes for Spellskite, I guess. Finally, I like Crystal Ball more than Top or Scroll Rack in some decks. Too bad they did not make it cost 2, then its inclusion would not be debatable I think. As is, the investment is quite steep.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Strange how people can have completely different experiences with the same card. I played it in several drafts, usually without combo, one time with two of them (Balance and Armageddon), and it failed to significantly impact the game almost without exception (I think it at least contributed to the win once). Gargadon's abysmal performance reinforces my natural dislike of suspend, I'm actually really glad to not have to see both Gargadon and the suspend ability anymore.
Keep those positive reports on Mikaeus coming, I might yet convince Hicham to give him some more time to prove himself!
Thornling is great if you have a ton (7+) of mana, no doubt. It might be better than Vorapede or one of the other fatties. What we like about Vorapede is that you can drop it without regret as soon as you hit 5 mana, which happens turn 4 most of the times, sometimes turn 3, and doesn't require any more mana afterwards, while with Thornling you better have at least G open for indestructibility (making it cost effectively 3GGG) and it needs constant maintenance afterwards. So Vorapede seems better in aggressive ramp decks. Terastodon on the other hand is expensive, but has such amazing impact and for that is loved in hard-core ramp decks (preferably with Rofellos and Natural Order). Maybe Thornling could find a slot in between Vorapede (for aggressive ramp) and Woodfall Primus (for hard-core ramp) as a more flexible card that could fit in either style ramp deck.
Crucible is another card like Gargadon I guess... It didn't pan out for us.
I have no hard feelings with Spellskite, but Hicham doesn't like it much and I had to admit that its performance hasn't been spectacular (although still acceptable). If it turns out that we really need more defensive creatures we it might re-appear later, after all it's colorless.
I love the simple design of Crystal Ball, and repeatable scry is very strong. Unfortunately, the Ball suffered a lot from 24th card syndrome, being this close to making the main deck but usually sitting in sideboards, and if it did make it in it'd often be sided out after the first game - because, you know, you gotta cut something to get that silver bullet in... I really, really wish they'd costed it at 2, it would make a world of difference.
Thanks for the feedback, Konfusius!
I will gradually post the deck lists of our first 450 Rochester draft here:
Seat 1: Rbw Wildfire
1 Faithless Looting
1 Burst Lightning
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scroll Rack
1 Magma Jet
1 Pyroclasm
1 Vindicate
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Earthquake
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Devil's Play
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Crater Hellion
1 Grave Titan
1 Wildfire
1 Mana Vault
1 Boros Signet
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Fetid Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mox Ruby
7 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Goblin Patrol
1 Torch Fiend
1 Ashmouth Hound
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Stormfront Pegasus
1 Soltari Priest
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Force Spike
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ludevic's Test Subject
1 Gilded Drake
1 Miscalculation
1 Condescend
1 Bitterblossom
1 Repeal
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Cryptic Command
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Upheaval
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Mox Jet
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave
1 City of Brass
7 Island
3 Swamp
1 Remand
1 Capsize
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Chimeric Mass
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Skullclamp
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wall of Omens
1 Wall of Roots
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Mirror Entity
1 Beast Within
1 Decree of Justice
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Kor Sanctifiers
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Spectral Procession
1 Gideon Jura
1 Sun Titan
1 Catastrophe
1 Grim Monolith
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
8 Plains
7 Forest
1 Wild Nacatl
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Harrow
1 Cultivate
1 Vorapede
1 Terastodon
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Day of Judgment
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Mind Stone
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Figure of Destiny
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Black Vise
1 Land Tax
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stormblood Berserker
1 Balance
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Time Walk
1 Flickerwisp
1 Keldon Vandals
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Erratic Portal
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Reveillark
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Celestial Colonnade
5 Plains
4 Mountain
1 Island
1 Steppe Lynx
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hearth Kami
1 Plated Geopede
1 Viashino Slaughtermaster
1 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Mistral Charger
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Reanimate
1 Merfolk Looter
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Arcane Denial
1 Mana Leak
1 Into the Roil
1 Impulse
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Serendib Efreet
1 Bone Shredder
1 Forbid
1 Psionic Blast
1 Complicate
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Skinrender
1 Mind Twist
1 Damnation
1 Shriekmaw
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
8 Island
6 Swamp
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Wretched Anurid
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Ring of Gix
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Profane Command
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Rancor
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Regrowth
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Masticore
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Bramblecrush
1 Acidic Slime
1 Plow Under
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated
1 Mutavault
15 Forest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Skinshifter
1 Taiga
1 Raging Ravine
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Char
1 Arc Lightning
1 Fireslinger
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Fume Spitter
1 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Carnophage
1 Gravecrawler
1 Sarcomancy
1 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Vampire Interloper
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Bloodghast
1 Nantuko's Shade
1 Dark Confidant
1 Winter Orb
1 Animate Dead
1 Sinkhole
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Necromancy
1 Stupor
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
13 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Farseek
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vengevine
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Batterskull
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Pithing Needle
1 Brainstorm
1 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spined Thopter
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Mana Drain
1 Revoke Existence
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Aether Adept
1 Man-o'-War
1 Soltari Champion
1 Exalted Angel
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Control Magic
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Armageddon
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Mulldrifter
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Windswept Heath
1 Tundra
7 Island
5 Plains
1 Perimeter Captain
1 Glorious Anthem
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Crystal Shard
1 Moat
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Hallowed Burial
I think the first card to go would be Complicate. It is amazing as a cycling Force Spike, but a three mana soft counter felt rather clunky for us. The second spell is tricky, possible cuts are one of the card selection spells (Impulse), one of the expensive finishers (Capsize, Jace, Memory Adept) or one of the bounce spells (Repeal, Into the Roil). Another option would be to drop the blue artifact package (Tolarian Academy, Tezzeret the Seeker), but I imagine it would be rather strong in a powered cube the way you draft it.
I like most creatures in your list, though Merfolk Looter seems a bit out of place. Looting is powerful, but is it powerful enough on a non-Looter il-Kor card? I never played Ludevic's Test Subject in cube (because I don't play double faced cards), it looks powerful but also fragile. I would not cut any other creature from your list, and of course preferably cut spells for more creatures.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Test Subject is pretty sweet but it depends on if you play him early as a wall of wood with big upside or if you play him as an echo fattie. I'm not quite sure which is better to be honest. But my experience with him is in a much more casual environment..I doubt he translates well to Cubes that play all good cards..but if anybody can say I'd love to hear how hes done!
The looters all get played regularly. We cut cut one if we really want to make place, but we'll first see how this size works out for us.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Heck blue finishers shouldn't be able to die from Lightning Bolts.
Most of that sounds reasonable. I agree that cutting spells for creatures would be preferable. My chopping block for the blue spells section consists of Complicate, Repeal, and Jace, Memory Adept. Of those I'd miss Repeal the most, and I think Jace 3 is the card that offers the least added value to the cube (being just a finisher, and not a very interesting one at that).
From the creatures section, I agree that Merfolk Looter and Test Subject are at the bottom (although I don't know for sure about the egg), but I don't think subbing them out for Mindshrieker or Dungeon Geists would improve the cube.
So my suggestion would be to cut Complicate and Jace 3 for Mindshrieker and Dungeon Geists, that wouldn't hurt control much and would add some support to tempo significantly. Thoughts?
Thanks for taking the time for your detailed advice, Konfusius.
You say you don't know which way you prefer it, as an early blocker or a finisher. I've got some good news for you: you don't need to choose, it will do both. And as a bonus, upgrading it to a finisher doesn't take up countermana. It just made the main deck in one of my decks (see deck list for Seat 2 on the previous page), so I may have some feedback on it soon. It may not be good enough for the 450 level, but I do think it's definitely being underestimated on these boards.
Wow. They're completely different cards, except from sharing a CMC. That evaluation seems way off.
Being able to act as a finisher is a huge upside for a 2-drop, and one that Spellskite does not share. If it gets offed by a Bolt, big deal. There aren't many 2-drops that can survive bolt, I don't see the point.
Not saying that Test Subject is the bee's knees, 'cause I don't know yet how it will perform. I do know however that 2-drops make deck lists quite easily in general, that Test Subject gets transformed scarily fast, and that 13/13 trample creatures finish games in a hurry. So yeah, I'm testing it.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
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My cube is unpowered and is missing many of blue's pricier staples, but our lists are still fairly close. I have some more gaps to fill in with suboptimal cards, but: Ludevich's Test Subject has worked very well in my cube. It isn't near as good as Spellskite of course, but it fits very well into blue. You can drop it T2 to slow down an aggro rush a bit, and you don't mind much if it gets bolted. Lategame, you can flip it easily with unused mana during the opponent's EOT. Hey, even Usman said it was his last cut from blue during the Innistrad update, and that he hated to cut it.
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I just added the final deck of our Rochester draft, click here to go directly to the post containing the full deck lists.
My pre-draft review of the decks. Seats 1-3-5-7 were drafted and built by Hicham, seats 2-4-6-8 by myself.
Seat 1 - Rbw Wildfire
This deck looks really scary. It has lots of acceleration, lots of burn and sweepers to stay alive, and great finishers. Might whiff from time to time, drawing only accel and nothing to ramp into, but that's hardly a complaint as any deck can draw badly. I think I'd try and get Torch Fiend and Kargan Dragonlord in the main deck, cutting Thoughtseize and Pyroclasm.
Blue control who can ignore most of the burn and keep its counters for the big threats seems like the most unfavorable matchup for this deck, also Ascetic Troll or especially Thrun will spell trouble.
Seat 2 - Ub Aggro-Control
Solid deck against midrange and control, I could see it having trouble against aggro although the creature stealers will definitely help there.
Seat 3 - WG Tokens
This deck can produce lots of small and big threats very fast and has some nice synergies going (the Skullclamp in particular looks very scary to me). The deck is probably vulnerable to sweepers and doesn't have a ton of answers, which I guess is usual for this archetype.
Seat 4 - RWu Blink
I actually have no idea how to evaluate this deck. Could be great, could flop big time. Whatever the case, I look forward to seeing it in action.
Seat 5 - UB Control
This is actually almost a reanimator build. That's interesting and could lead to some blow-outs, but it looks a mite too slow to me and it could have problems getting rid of stuff. I don't think this deck will make top 4.
Seat 6: Mono-green aggressive ramp
This deck can produce some ridiculously explosive starts, but might have trouble if it fails to draw enough serious threats. Otherwise the only weak point is creature removal, which is normal for mono-green, but doesn't have to be a problem. The deck will put lots of pressure on the opponent and has some broken equipment, and the newly re-added Worldly Tutor looks right at home in this build. The deck is somewhat simplistic, but the disruption, trolls and planeswalkers should make the deck competitive even against control. I'm looking forward to piloting this deck.
Seat 7: mono-black aggro-disruption
I think this is the best deck at the table. If you would ask me to build the perfect monoblack aggro deck from our cube, it would likely look much like this. It's insanely fast, has tons of disruption and should have no trouble winning matches with the average hand.
Seat 8 - UW Tempo
This deck hesitated for too long between going control or tempo, and it shows. It's a reasonable deck, but I think it will fall short when compared with the other decks in the draft. The deck needs a few more cheap creatures to be competitive I think, still I'll gladly pilot the deck.
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Feel free to comment on the decks, critique deck building choices or place your bets on the draft outcome!
The reason for cutting it would certainly not be power level. Jace 3 is undeniably powerful, but it has a rather limited role in cube, which is a perfectly legitimate reason to cut something.
EDIT: sorry for double-posting but it felt wrong to merge it with the giant post above. Geez, I worked almost an hour on that thing.
Ub aggro control: Seems fairly solid but runs too many 4+ spells for my tastes. Looks like it waffled between being the big mana artifact deck and an aggro one. Remand is the Ultimate blue tempo spell, sideboarding it seems bad.
WG tokens: Seems ok, the deck seems well drafted I'm just not sure how powerful the archetype is next to the other decks. Also Strangleroot Giest seems better than either of the walls while I'm sitting here making snap judgments.
RWu Blink: This deck seems like it's one or two more good blink targets from being insane. Hard for me to judge as I have no experience with Red blink. Should be able to steal some games with aggro draws.
UB control: Has an insane top end second only to the wildfire deck, and could possibly have some beat down draws with Serendib Efreet and just protecting it with it's wealth of answers. I really like this deck.
Mono Green: I don't see this deck having a ton of success, it seems like it will be really inconsistent. Some times it will have a turn 2 rofellos followed by a turn 3 Plow under and just be unbeatable other times it will draw all ramp. Has little disruption so It's all in on it's own plan. Again just seems so inconsistent.
Mono Black: Seems awesome, the mix of disruption and aggro beats looks great. Might struggle a bit with the more mid rangy decks, but seems really solid.
UW tempo: It's UW tempo, I'm currently in fanboy mode towards the archetype so I can't give any real feedback to it other than it looks solid, but wanting another counterspell or two.
Top 4 picks
1: Mono black aggro
2: Wildfire
3: UB control
4: UW Tempo
I like this prediction! Three of my decks on top:D:p
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Hicham, don't be lazy and post your analysis. Chop chop!
Thanks a ton grapefruit! Funny how my bottom 2 made your top 4. The draft is looking to be very interesting in any case. Deck building seemed to be a good bit harder than before, which is already a good sign.
I do think it's a big strange that you list inconsistency as a crippling flaw for the mono-green deck, yet predict a number 2 finish for the deck that has the same issue (except in that deck it's more severe because mana rocks can't turn sideways or carry equipment). In any case, I'll do my best to prove you wrong by mopping up the field with mono-green!
Looking at the Wildfire deck it has three things to ramp into, two of which are peripheral colors. The removal is very solid, but I'm not sure.
Results round 1
Match 1 - Rbw Wildfire vs Mono-green aggro-ramp
Wildfire vs Green: 1-2
Tokens vs UW Tempo: 2-0
UB Control vs Ub Aggro-Control: 0-2
Mono-Black Aggro-Disruption vs RWu Blink: 0-2
Thanks for reading, please check back later for more reports on the draft!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Results Round 2
Match 5 - WG Tokens vs Mono-Green AggroRamp
WG Tokens vs Mono-Green AggroRamp: 2-1
Ub Aggro-Control vs RWu Blink: 1-2
UB Control vs UW Tempo: 2-0
Rbw Wildfire vs Mono-Black Aggro-Disruption: 1-2
The results of round 2 mean that the final will be played between WG Tokens and RWu Blink, a rather unexpected outcome.
Ludevic's Test Subject came up twice in 5 games, and was a really big threat both times. I think that's quite amazing for a blue 2-drop. The testing sample isn't big enough yet to reach a clear verdict, but it's certainly looking promising. It transforms absurdly fast and is an absurdly large threat, with instant speed level-up. I like it.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.