Hi wtwlf - are you considering or testing a Thassa’s Oracle package At 720; i.e. Thassa, Jace, inverter, tainted, Demonic consultation? Or do you think the pieces don’t have enough synergy with the rest of the cube? Would like to hear your thoughts on this as a package.
I don't think they have enough synergy outside of their respective decks. Nor is there enough redundancy to have the deck be consistent enough. The vast majority of the combo cards in the cube are cards that are functional cards in multiple places that just happen to win the game when combined with other cards. I don't think many of the cards in the Oracle combo meet that description, outside of the Oracle itself.
Long time lurker and much respect for your cube, your articles and for sharing your insights In this thread.
Two subjects I'd like to pick your brain on...
1) glimpse drafting seems like a way to theoretically see a large percentage of the cube but because of the burning the actual number of cards an individual drafter sees is quite low. In my playgroup we use a method derived from Winchester draft.
We make 36 packs of 10 cards and divide those boosters among the number of players (usually 4, incidentally 3 or 5). We draft closed and everyone takes one pick per pack. Once your own booster wheels you get to look at it but not pick again - the remaining cards are discarded.
Curious on your thoughts on the method compared to glimpse drafting.
2) Mesmeric Orb been a pet card of mine. Have you ever tried it, considered and what are your thoughts on it?
Thanks for posting, and thanks for the kind words!
1. Not sure I follow. If I do a 3-player glimpse draft, I see the same number of cards I would as if it was a table of 9. Each drafter is basically doing the work of multiple players (yourself, and then two "ghost" drafters to your side). I don't actually see any less cards than I would in a traditional draft with that same number of players. I also think being able to wheel cards is important to the draft process, and I wouldn't want to eliminate it.
2. I have not played Mesmeric Orb, but I'm not sure that I would have any interest in it without supporting a mill theme. I'm sure it creates some tension when it's on the board though. With a mill deck available, the card could be a powerhouse I'm sure.
I see from your second post that a 4 player impulse draft lets an individual player see 20+16+12+8= 56 cards per round times 9 is 504 individual cards. How did you draft your 540 size cube with 4 players?
And how do you feel about the impact of burning three between players affects the viability of combo in your cube? To me it seems that by the time you get to pick 3, 6 cards have already been burned and it's quite easy to burn a combo piece or wincon. How are your experiences with that? My cube supports storm and kiki combo for example and it's seems all to easy to nerve the combo decks by burning kiki, brain freeze etc.
As for mesmeric orb it gets used as an alternate wincon alongside oona queen of the fay, as a wincon for the ghostly prison/sphere of safety deck which I support as well as a main support card for all graveyard strategies, reanimator, loam, delve etc. I know it's quite niche but its a powerful build around card and with your move up to 720 I somehow thought you might be tempted to try it out.
When I was at 540, I used a Glimpse Draft for 4 players. A 4 player Impulse Draft uses 720 cards, so it's not doable at 540 obviously.
Pack sizes are large, and there are often more important cards to burn that just slashing combo pieces out of packs. But the advantage of seeing 100% of the cube outweighs the drawback of having cards burned during the process. Combo decks are plenty competitive in Impulse/Glimpse/Sight drafts, I assure you. It would be no more common than one of the "ghost" players next to you drafting those combo pieces from the pack.
Hi, can you tell me some more about your SWCCG cube? I love cubing with MtG and would love to cube with SWCCG as well.
How do you draft it? Where/when do the freebie cards come in?
I am also curious about Edict's removal, as well as the removal of Ashborn Phoenix, since you seemed pretty high on it during preview season and it's performed pretty well for us. Is it just plain worse than even the worst of the Goblin Rabblemaster variants as far as red threes go?
Also, thanks for all you do for the cube community - I know I probably wouldn't have a power cube were it not for you.
Hi, can you tell me some more about your SWCCG cube? I love cubing with MtG and would love to cube with SWCCG as well.
How do you draft it? Where/when do the freebie cards come in?
Light and Dark are obviously drafted separately. You can have 1 player do Sealed for each side, or you can do any 2-person draft event you want to divide the pool.
Freebie cards are freely available to both players to add into their decks when deckbuilding, just like basic lands in Magic.
I am also curious about Edict's removal, as well as the removal of Ashborn Phoenix, since you seemed pretty high on it during preview season and it's performed pretty well for us. Is it just plain worse than even the worst of the Goblin Rabblemaster variants as far as red threes go?
Edict is a card I like a lot, but it is more redundant now that we have Liliana's Triumph, which is ever so slightly better. But I'm not opposed to bringing it back at some point in the future.
I needed a cut in red, and red's 3cc creature section was the most saturated. And the best cut from that section was the Phoenix, IMO. Card's great, but I don't need it for anything other than just being a good 3-drop ...and red has plenty of those. And yes, I like all the Rabblemaster variants more.
Back when I was first introduced to Cube via The Magic Show, cards like Tradewind Rider and Akroma, Angel of Wrath were staples. Today, these cards sadly don't make the cut. Cube has only become more and more powerful with each set. So my question is, did you prefer a particular 'era' of Cube more than another, or in your mind does Cube continue to become increasingly enjoyable as more sets are released?
I think I like the current lists the most. Not necessarily because I like the new cards more, but because I like having the most options when designing. Cube managers have more options now, and that makes lists more diverse, and cube managers have more control over what they want their metagame to look like. Despite the greater powerlevel, we probably have more variation than ever before, since there are so many competitive options for each slot now.
temporal spring or Bring to Light? They seem like absolutely powerful cards in their own right, but the UB section is extremely crowded.
I'm kinda surprised Ice Fang didn't make this cut.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I can't speak for wtwlf but I just don't think Temporal Spring or Bring to Light can hold a candle to the other cards listed. They are good, but they aren't nearly as powerful or as vital to an archetype as the others. Ice-Fang Coatl is great but requires running Snow in cube, which a lot of cube managers don't do.
Temporal Spring is fine, but there's no room anymore. The sun set on this card a long, long time ago.
Bring to Light is a cool card. It helps support combos ...but it's tough to find room for it because you almost have to cut a combo card to add in combo support; making it extremely hard to find a cut for.
Ice-Fang Coatl is good for cubes, but won't see play anywhere else.
Temporal Spring is fine, but there's no room anymore. The sun set on this card a long, long time ago.
Bring to Light is a cool card. It helps support combos ...but it's tough to find room for it because you almost have to cut a combo card to add in combo support; making it extremely hard to find a cut for.
Ice-Fang Coatl is good for cubes, but won't see play anywhere else.
I have a set of basic lands and basic snow lands in my cube pretty much just for Ice-Fang and Field of the dead.
Yah. I could see that the time has passed for temporal spring ...
I just could not find room for Bring to Light. I really wanted this card to be played but there is just no room ..
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But on the other topic, I went slightly into snow. Not for Ice Fang but for Field of the Dead.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Two subjects I'd like to pick your brain on...
1) glimpse drafting seems like a way to theoretically see a large percentage of the cube but because of the burning the actual number of cards an individual drafter sees is quite low. In my playgroup we use a method derived from Winchester draft.
We make 36 packs of 10 cards and divide those boosters among the number of players (usually 4, incidentally 3 or 5). We draft closed and everyone takes one pick per pack. Once your own booster wheels you get to look at it but not pick again - the remaining cards are discarded.
Curious on your thoughts on the method compared to glimpse drafting.
2) Mesmeric Orb been a pet card of mine. Have you ever tried it, considered and what are your thoughts on it?
My Powered Cube
1. Not sure I follow. If I do a 3-player glimpse draft, I see the same number of cards I would as if it was a table of 9. Each drafter is basically doing the work of multiple players (yourself, and then two "ghost" drafters to your side). I don't actually see any less cards than I would in a traditional draft with that same number of players. I also think being able to wheel cards is important to the draft process, and I wouldn't want to eliminate it.
2. I have not played Mesmeric Orb, but I'm not sure that I would have any interest in it without supporting a mill theme. I'm sure it creates some tension when it's on the board though. With a mill deck available, the card could be a powerhouse I'm sure.
Cheers, and happy cubing.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I see from your second post that a 4 player impulse draft lets an individual player see 20+16+12+8= 56 cards per round times 9 is 504 individual cards. How did you draft your 540 size cube with 4 players?
And how do you feel about the impact of burning three between players affects the viability of combo in your cube? To me it seems that by the time you get to pick 3, 6 cards have already been burned and it's quite easy to burn a combo piece or wincon. How are your experiences with that? My cube supports storm and kiki combo for example and it's seems all to easy to nerve the combo decks by burning kiki, brain freeze etc.
As for mesmeric orb it gets used as an alternate wincon alongside oona queen of the fay, as a wincon for the ghostly prison/sphere of safety deck which I support as well as a main support card for all graveyard strategies, reanimator, loam, delve etc. I know it's quite niche but its a powerful build around card and with your move up to 720 I somehow thought you might be tempted to try it out.
My Powered Cube
Pack sizes are large, and there are often more important cards to burn that just slashing combo pieces out of packs. But the advantage of seeing 100% of the cube outweighs the drawback of having cards burned during the process. Combo decks are plenty competitive in Impulse/Glimpse/Sight drafts, I assure you. It would be no more common than one of the "ghost" players next to you drafting those combo pieces from the pack.
Thanks for the feedback on Orb.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
How do you draft it? Where/when do the freebie cards come in?
Also, thanks for all you do for the cube community - I know I probably wouldn't have a power cube were it not for you.
My 36+ Commander Decks: TAPPEDOUT
Light and Dark are obviously drafted separately. You can have 1 player do Sealed for each side, or you can do any 2-person draft event you want to divide the pool.
Freebie cards are freely available to both players to add into their decks when deckbuilding, just like basic lands in Magic.
Edict is a card I like a lot, but it is more redundant now that we have Liliana's Triumph, which is ever so slightly better. But I'm not opposed to bringing it back at some point in the future.
I needed a cut in red, and red's 3cc creature section was the most saturated. And the best cut from that section was the Phoenix, IMO. Card's great, but I don't need it for anything other than just being a good 3-drop ...and red has plenty of those. And yes, I like all the Rabblemaster variants more.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I'm temporarily benching the Pod archetype to bring in some good stuff...
Birthing Pod -> Voracious Hydra
Prime Speaker Vannifar -> Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
The way I see right now...
For generic inclusions:
1. Oko, Thief of Crowns
2. Hydroid Krasis
3. Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4. Nissa, Steward of Elements
For specific decktypes:
Edric, Spymaster of Trest (tempo, go-wide/tokens)
Mystic Snake (blink/bounce, flash, tempo)
Kiora's Follower (Vault combo, super-ramp)
Bounding Krasis (Kiki/Twin combo, flash, tempo)
Prime Speaker Vannifar (Pod)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Have you tried:
temporal spring or Bring to Light? They seem like absolutely powerful cards in their own right, but the UB section is extremely crowded.
I'm kinda surprised Ice Fang didn't make this cut.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Bring to Light is a cool card. It helps support combos ...but it's tough to find room for it because you almost have to cut a combo card to add in combo support; making it extremely hard to find a cut for.
Ice-Fang Coatl is good for cubes, but won't see play anywhere else.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I have a set of basic lands and basic snow lands in my cube pretty much just for Ice-Fang and Field of the dead.
Yah. I could see that the time has passed for temporal spring ...
I just could not find room for Bring to Light. I really wanted this card to be played but there is just no room ..
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i