The next logical step is 630. The change might not be permanent, but long enough for me to do an accurate analysis of how all the new (and other added cards) interact with one another to see what might stay if I reduce it back down. I think there's enough great cards coming in simultaneously that a cube increase might have less of an impact on my draft experience than making ~26+ swaps in my current size would.
Again, it might not be permanent, but I want to see how all the additional cards interact with the current card suite before I go hacking out like 6+% of the cards in the cube.
Hey wtwlf, long-time fan of your cube. Thank you for all your contributions to the community! I would appreciate your evaluation of the power-level (PL) of some cards.
I run a Modern-Legal cube, using Modern legality as a basis for keeping the cube below a certain PL. Modern Horizons is really shaking things up for me allowing powerful, pre-modern era cards. I'm thinking of lifting the Modern-legal restriction and using the PL of Modern Horizons as the new barometer for what is allowed into my cube.
Now that Fact or Fiction is Modern-Legal and thus Modern PL, I'm having a bit of trouble evaluating the PL of Mystic Confluence. I think Cryptic Command is an appropriate PL for the Cube, given its 1UUU casting cost. Would you say that Mystic Confluence is an appropriate PL, or does it do too much for the 3UU casting cost?
Please tell me if you think any of these cards might be too powerful for my environment:
Also, do any of these creatures stand out as overpowered given the lack of pre-Modern support cards such as: Upheaval, Tinker, Braids, Cabal Minion, fast-mana, etc.?:
I think all of those blue spells are fine to cube with. Confluence might be the most powerful of the bunch, but it's not so overpowered that it would need to be banned or anything.
I think you'll be okay running all of those blue spells. Enjoy!
First off, I want to sincerely thank you for all your effort and care put into this cube. It is a work of art. I want to make my first cube for my wife and I, and I think yours is a perfect start. I have a couple questions after reading your articles and philosophies, and comparing with the original cube I learned on.
Do you have a brief explanation on why black is the lowest CMC at 2.78? I thought it would be closer to/higher than Red (3.01).
Based on your current cube, what are your thoughts on the following cards? It seems some of these previously existed in your cube, and others have never existed. I was wondering if you remember the choice to exclude or exchange these cards, since these were the most memorable in the cube I learned with.
Entreat the Angels is strong, but inconsistent without more top-of-library manipulation. Cubes that break the multiples rule for extra brainstorms and stuff can get much better mileage out of it.
Delver of Secrets I like, but it needs a little more help to be consistent enough in cube. Pteramander helped, and with a couple more of them I think the spell tempo strategy can be deep enough to consistently use them. Right now it's safer to build that archetype from the Mentor/Pyromancer variants instead.
Hedron Crab is good in a dedicated mill archetype, but that's it.
Gilded Drake needs more creature bounce to be great. Plus, there are some aggro shells where a 3/3 flying is their best body, making the card weak in matchups where your deck needs the most help.
Sakashima's Student is a good clone variant, but in general, clones have to be amazing to be worthwhile. Student is decent, but not busted.
Willbender is a good card, but needs a decent density of morphs to bluff with.
Vesuvan Shapeshifter is another card that gets a lot better with a morph subtheme.
Keiga, the Tide Star is good, but the competition at the 6cc creature slot in blue is too competitive nowadays.
Desecration Demon sucks. The drawback makes the flying useless, and it can't effectively block or carry equipment. I'd literally rather use any other oversized 4cc black creature ever made. Try Sewer Nemesis in this slot instead. It's also a gigantic 4-drop, but it enhances both mill and graveyard strategies, can block, can carry equipment, and has a better mana cost.
Sudden Spoiling is a combat blowout, but is pretty weak in decks that can't easily involve themselves with the red zone. I prefer a regular ol' removal spell.
Black Sun's Zenith is a good card, but got displaced by better black sweepers.
Phyrexian Arena is a great card, and always has a chance of coming back into my cube at any time.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is a good combo card. But if you don't support the combo, players will draft your cube with the expectation that you do. I don't, so it's a draft-trap for me to run it.
Banefire is okay if you're looking for some number of Fireball Effects, but I prefer Devil's Play ...and I don't play that either.
Thieves' Auction is fun for multiplayer madness, but doesn't do enough to justify its 7-mana investment in most heads-up games.
Elvish Piper is nice added redundancy to the fatty-cheating decks, but it's so fragile and too expensive.
Garruk, Primal Hunter is a good generic 'walker. But I just couldn't find room, and when I was looking to trim 'walkers wherever possible, he was just the one that was the least important. FWIW, if you're all in on maximizing Fastbond's power, I like this guy (and Harmonize, for that matter) better than I do in cubes without Fastbond floating around.
Summoning Trap was too much of a sideboard card for our liking.
Doubling Season is a spicy card, but it's a big mana investment for a card that does nothing on its own.
Sphinx's Revelation is a good spell too, but WU got too deep, and too many good mono-colored draw options became available as suitable replacements.
Huntmaster of the Fells is a good creature, but has a better option for a 4cc creature already, and I didn't feel the need to play both.
Sarkhan Vol will always have a place in my heart as one of my favorite effects. He's unique because RG anthems, fires effects and threaten effects are all rare in cube, and it was nice to have all of them in one package. Never really down-and-out for good.
Xenagos, the Reveler is another example of a good Gruul card that just felt redundant. So many playable options at 4-mana in this guild.
Pact of Negation is a good spell, but it can be cost inefficient outside of specific tapout control decks trying to maximize on their sorcery-speed play.
Wow! Thank you for such a detailed response, I really do appreciate it. All of your reasoning makes a ton of sense, and it really shows how much knowledge and effort goes into your cube.
I've been lurking this topic for years now, and seeing as MTGS is closing down soon, I figured I'd stop in before the shutdown to say thanks for all the cube updates/articles/writeups from you, wtwlf! I maintain a cube that uses yours as a base, and I always look forward to seeing your updates and opinions for new set. Thanks for everything you do!
Hi! I heard Salvation is shutting down soon and I just wanted to say thanks for all the work you've put in over the past several years. I always make a list of your top 20 and draft/trade/buy a copy of each by the end of standard rotation. As a result, I've finally acquired enough cubeable cards to build a basic cube this summer =]
Looking forward to following your work on Twitter,
Joel
99% going to be an increase in size to 630 to experiment with new and expanded archetypes and get to try out all the new cards alongside the old ones to get a better picture of how they perform.
I as well would like to thank you for all the efforts you put in creating, updating and explaining your cube. Creating something for scratch isn't something I'm really good at, but your work has been so helpful to me for years now. Thanks !
99% going to be an increase in size to 630 to experiment with new and expanded archetypes and get to try out all the new cards alongside the old ones to get a better picture of how they perform.
I get that you want to expand the size of your cube to 630 for some testing purposes. MH is clearly a wonderful set to us cube worshipers. Is there a chance you don't come back to 540 afterwards, or do you already know you will ultimately come back down after some weeks/months of playtesting ? I remember your list being 450 cards, and I'm wondering if you have a number you never want to exceed.
There's definitely a chance. I change my cube size more frequently than any other cube manager I know. Experimentation with different draft methods, expansion and deletion of various archetypes and an ever-changing playgroup size keeps me from being able to stay at one size forever. I'm pretty confidant that I won't ever cube with a list larger than 720 or smaller than 360. But that's all I know for sure.
Here it is, the update to 630! OP is updated too. CubeTutor will be updated on Monday when MH1 goes live.
White
Giver of Runes
Steppe Lynx
Glory-Bound Initiate
Tithe Taker
Mirror Entity
Hokori, Dust Drinker
Cloudgoat Ranger
Force of Virtue
Winds of Abandon
Serra the Benevolent
Blue
Arcane Artisan
Champion of Wits
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Morphling
Riftwing Cloudskate
Gitaxian Probe
Opt
Impulse
Commit // Memory
Echo of Eons
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Goblin Engineer
Plated Geopede
Seasoned Pyromancer
Avalanche Riders
Goblin Oriflamme
Shenanigans
Staggershock
Trash for Treasure
Experimental Frenzy
Green
Hexdrinker
Sylvan Advocate
Vinelasher Kudzu
Obstinate Baloth
Vengevine
Deep Forest Hermit
Fastbond
Birthing Pod
Curse of Predation
Nissa, Who Shakes the World
Talisman of Dominance
Notion Thief
Bad River
Darkslick Shores
(-Fetid Pools)
Talisman of Indulgence
Judith, the Scourge Diva
Falkenrath Aristocrat
Rocky Tar Pit
(-Dreadbore)
Talisman of Impulse
Wrenn and Six
Sarkhan Vol
Mountain Valley
(-Ancient Grudge)
Nature’s Chant
Talisman of Unity
Grasslands
Talisman of Hierarchy
Desolation Angel
Silent Clearing
Deathrite Shaman
Talisman of Resilience
Nurturing Peatland
Talisman of Curiosity
Prime Speaker Vannifar
Botanical Sanctum
Waterlogged Grove
(- Simic Temple)
Fire // Ice
Talisman of Creativity
Fiery Islet
Spirebluff Canal
(-Izzet Temple)
Boros Charm
Talisman of Conviction
Sunbaked Canyon
Colorless
Precursor Golem
Sword of Sinew and Steel
Sword of Truth and Justice
Zuran Orb
Cursed Scroll
Ratchet Bomb
Ugin, the Ineffable
Field of Ruin
Mobilized District
Prismatic Vista
Again, it might not be permanent, but I want to see how all the additional cards interact with the current card suite before I go hacking out like 6+% of the cards in the cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I run a Modern-Legal cube, using Modern legality as a basis for keeping the cube below a certain PL. Modern Horizons is really shaking things up for me allowing powerful, pre-modern era cards. I'm thinking of lifting the Modern-legal restriction and using the PL of Modern Horizons as the new barometer for what is allowed into my cube.
Now that Fact or Fiction is Modern-Legal and thus Modern PL, I'm having a bit of trouble evaluating the PL of Mystic Confluence. I think Cryptic Command is an appropriate PL for the Cube, given its 1UUU casting cost. Would you say that Mystic Confluence is an appropriate PL, or does it do too much for the 3UU casting cost?
Please tell me if you think any of these cards might be too powerful for my environment:
*If {acceptable PL}, then {appropriate PL}?
If Cryptic Command, then Mystic Confluence?
If Remand, then Arcane Denial / Memory Lapse?
If Chandra, Torch of Defiance, then Fiery Confluence?
Also, do any of these creatures stand out as overpowered given the lack of pre-Modern support cards such as: Upheaval, Tinker, Braids, Cabal Minion, fast-mana, etc.?:
Exalted Angel, Ophiomancer, Flesh Carver, Flametongue Kavu, Yavimaya Elder, Psychatog, Baleful Strix?
I really appreciate your time!
I think all of those blue spells are fine to cube with. Confluence might be the most powerful of the bunch, but it's not so overpowered that it would need to be banned or anything.
I think you'll be okay running all of those blue spells. Enjoy!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
First off, I want to sincerely thank you for all your effort and care put into this cube. It is a work of art. I want to make my first cube for my wife and I, and I think yours is a perfect start. I have a couple questions after reading your articles and philosophies, and comparing with the original cube I learned on.
Do you have a brief explanation on why black is the lowest CMC at 2.78? I thought it would be closer to/higher than Red (3.01).
Based on your current cube, what are your thoughts on the following cards? It seems some of these previously existed in your cube, and others have never existed. I was wondering if you remember the choice to exclude or exchange these cards, since these were the most memorable in the cube I learned with.
White
Serra Ascendant
Orim's Chant
Entreat the Angels
Blue
Delver of Secrets
Hedron Crab
Gilded Drake
Sakashima's Student
Willbender
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Keiga, the Tide Star
Black
Desecration Demon
Phyrexian Obliterator
Sudden Spoiling
Grim Tutor
Choice of Damnations
Black Sun's Zenith
Phyrexian Arena
Red
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Zealous Conscripts
Wild Ricochet
Gamble
Banefire
Thieves' Auction
Green
Elvish Piper
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Summoning Trap
Doubling Season
Multi/colorless
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Sphinx's Revelation
Huntmaster of the Fells
Sarkhan Vol
Xenagos, the Reveler
Pact of Negation
Again, thank you for all your work. It is widely appreciated by the MTG community!
Black has so many cost-effective 1 & 2cc spells that the curve just ends up being really low.
..........
Serra Ascendant doesn't do enough unless you have a dedicated lifegain strategy.
Orim's Chant is a fun combo card with Isochron Scepter, but is a little weak on its own.
Entreat the Angels is strong, but inconsistent without more top-of-library manipulation. Cubes that break the multiples rule for extra brainstorms and stuff can get much better mileage out of it.
Delver of Secrets I like, but it needs a little more help to be consistent enough in cube. Pteramander helped, and with a couple more of them I think the spell tempo strategy can be deep enough to consistently use them. Right now it's safer to build that archetype from the Mentor/Pyromancer variants instead.
Hedron Crab is good in a dedicated mill archetype, but that's it.
Gilded Drake needs more creature bounce to be great. Plus, there are some aggro shells where a 3/3 flying is their best body, making the card weak in matchups where your deck needs the most help.
Sakashima's Student is a good clone variant, but in general, clones have to be amazing to be worthwhile. Student is decent, but not busted.
Willbender is a good card, but needs a decent density of morphs to bluff with.
Vesuvan Shapeshifter is another card that gets a lot better with a morph subtheme.
Keiga, the Tide Star is good, but the competition at the 6cc creature slot in blue is too competitive nowadays.
Desecration Demon sucks. The drawback makes the flying useless, and it can't effectively block or carry equipment. I'd literally rather use any other oversized 4cc black creature ever made. Try Sewer Nemesis in this slot instead. It's also a gigantic 4-drop, but it enhances both mill and graveyard strategies, can block, can carry equipment, and has a better mana cost.
Phyrexian Obliterator is only playable in mono-black. Too narrow.
Sudden Spoiling is a combat blowout, but is pretty weak in decks that can't easily involve themselves with the red zone. I prefer a regular ol' removal spell.
Grim Tutor is just too inefficient.
Choice of Damnations is cute, but too expensive.
Black Sun's Zenith is a good card, but got displaced by better black sweepers.
Phyrexian Arena is a great card, and always has a chance of coming back into my cube at any time.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is a good combo card. But if you don't support the combo, players will draft your cube with the expectation that you do. I don't, so it's a draft-trap for me to run it.
Zealous Conscripts is a powerful card, but had the same trap as Kiki.
Wild Ricochet can be strong, but it was too narrow.
Gamble was too inconsistent.
Banefire is okay if you're looking for some number of Fireball Effects, but I prefer Devil's Play ...and I don't play that either.
Thieves' Auction is fun for multiplayer madness, but doesn't do enough to justify its 7-mana investment in most heads-up games.
Elvish Piper is nice added redundancy to the fatty-cheating decks, but it's so fragile and too expensive.
Garruk, Primal Hunter is a good generic 'walker. But I just couldn't find room, and when I was looking to trim 'walkers wherever possible, he was just the one that was the least important. FWIW, if you're all in on maximizing Fastbond's power, I like this guy (and Harmonize, for that matter) better than I do in cubes without Fastbond floating around.
Summoning Trap was too much of a sideboard card for our liking.
Doubling Season is a spicy card, but it's a big mana investment for a card that does nothing on its own.
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is a spicy effect, but ultimately the competition in got too steep.
Sphinx's Revelation is a good spell too, but WU got too deep, and too many good mono-colored draw options became available as suitable replacements.
Huntmaster of the Fells is a good creature, but has a better option for a 4cc creature already, and I didn't feel the need to play both.
Sarkhan Vol will always have a place in my heart as one of my favorite effects. He's unique because RG anthems, fires effects and threaten effects are all rare in cube, and it was nice to have all of them in one package. Never really down-and-out for good.
Xenagos, the Reveler is another example of a good Gruul card that just felt redundant. So many playable options at 4-mana in this guild.
Pact of Negation is a good spell, but it can be cost inefficient outside of specific tapout control decks trying to maximize on their sorcery-speed play.
..........
Cheers, and happy cubing.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Wow! Thank you for such a detailed response, I really do appreciate it. All of your reasoning makes a ton of sense, and it really shows how much knowledge and effort goes into your cube.
My wife and I are really excited to use it
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
@wtwlf123
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Looking forward to following your work on Twitter,
Joel
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I as well would like to thank you for all the efforts you put in creating, updating and explaining your cube. Creating something for scratch isn't something I'm really good at, but your work has been so helpful to me for years now. Thanks !
I get that you want to expand the size of your cube to 630 for some testing purposes. MH is clearly a wonderful set to us cube worshipers. Is there a chance you don't come back to 540 afterwards, or do you already know you will ultimately come back down after some weeks/months of playtesting ? I remember your list being 450 cards, and I'm wondering if you have a number you never want to exceed.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
White
Giver of Runes
Steppe Lynx
Glory-Bound Initiate
Tithe Taker
Mirror Entity
Hokori, Dust Drinker
Cloudgoat Ranger
Force of Virtue
Winds of Abandon
Serra the Benevolent
Blue
Arcane Artisan
Champion of Wits
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Morphling
Riftwing Cloudskate
Gitaxian Probe
Opt
Impulse
Commit // Memory
Echo of Eons
Black
Carrion Feeder
Blood Artist
Zulaport Cutthroat
Plague Engineer
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
Contagion
Chainer’s Edict
Phyrexian Arena
Ruinous Path
Vraska’s Contempt
Red
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Goblin Engineer
Plated Geopede
Seasoned Pyromancer
Avalanche Riders
Goblin Oriflamme
Shenanigans
Staggershock
Trash for Treasure
Experimental Frenzy
Green
Hexdrinker
Sylvan Advocate
Vinelasher Kudzu
Obstinate Baloth
Vengevine
Deep Forest Hermit
Fastbond
Birthing Pod
Curse of Predation
Nissa, Who Shakes the World
Guild
Talisman of Progress
Reflector Mage
Flood Plain
Seachrome Coast
(-Irrigated Farmland)
Talisman of Dominance
Notion Thief
Bad River
Darkslick Shores
(-Fetid Pools)
Talisman of Indulgence
Judith, the Scourge Diva
Falkenrath Aristocrat
Rocky Tar Pit
(-Dreadbore)
Talisman of Impulse
Wrenn and Six
Sarkhan Vol
Mountain Valley
(-Ancient Grudge)
Nature’s Chant
Talisman of Unity
Grasslands
Talisman of Hierarchy
Desolation Angel
Silent Clearing
Deathrite Shaman
Talisman of Resilience
Nurturing Peatland
Talisman of Curiosity
Prime Speaker Vannifar
Botanical Sanctum
Waterlogged Grove
(- Simic Temple)
Fire // Ice
Talisman of Creativity
Fiery Islet
Spirebluff Canal
(-Izzet Temple)
Boros Charm
Talisman of Conviction
Sunbaked Canyon
Colorless
Precursor Golem
Sword of Sinew and Steel
Sword of Truth and Justice
Zuran Orb
Cursed Scroll
Ratchet Bomb
Ugin, the Ineffable
Field of Ruin
Mobilized District
Prismatic Vista
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!