Just a quick question about the basic land you have in your cube? is the list up to date because you have 41 different sets. which ones do you actually use in your cube? Thanks and love following your cube!
This might be better on the SCD but since Land Tax is being discussed: I had it in WRu midrange this weekend. Kept a hand on the play with it and City of Brass. Had to skip my 2nd land drop (didn't have a land to play but would have skipped it anyway to trigger tax) and over the next 3-4 turns pulled all 7 basics out of my deck. I had to search up less than 3 some turns to avoid discarding.
So a 7 for one. Sure, they are all lands but now I will hit the rest of my drops, I have tons of non-land cards in hand since I kept a one-lander, and my draw steps are less likely to be lands.
Just a quick question about the basic land you have in your cube? is the list up to date because you have 41 different sets. which ones do you actually use in your cube? Thanks and love following your cube!
I use one of each promo land and full-art land ever released.
The pictures aren't up to date, but the list is. It'll be expanded in November when the promo foil guild basics come out on Ravnica Weekend.
I'd be interested in your thoughts behind the choice to cut Phyrexian Arena. I had it in my first iteration and cut it for being a bit too slow. I know you've had it in your list for awhile (I use your cube as a reference, thanks for all the work you do!), and I was just about to give it a shot when I saw that you cut it. Could you expand on your thoughts about that card; Why you kept it for so long (other than the fact it was a beautiful signed foil), why you decided to cut it, whether you think it could be back?
It could always come back. I think the cut was more about curve than anything else. Black's 3cc spell section was pretty deep, and it was the area that had the most fat to trim, so to speak. I knew Contempt was on the chopping block, and if it were to get cut in the future (which it did) I wanted to get another instant-speed removal spell available. So changing Arena to Push kinda killed two birds with one stone.
Hey, wtwlf123! Big fan. After looking at a ton of cubes for inspiration, I decided that yours was the one that I wanted to replicate the most. I trimmed your most recent 540-list into 450 cards (and then added 1 more multicolor card to each guild - I just like too many multicolor cards).
1. Is it just completely idiotic to trim from 540 to 450? Should I just keep your base 540? My logic was that I like the balance of seeing the power cards/good lands/important synergy cards at 450(and it is a lot more affordable - assuming I proxy the really expensive cards).
2. Did what I trim from your list ruin any of the important archetypes/synergies?
Thanks a ton for your time, man! I respect all of the work you do on your cube.
Hey, wtwlf123! Big fan. After looking at a ton of cubes for inspiration, I decided that yours was the one that I wanted to replicate the most.
Welcome! Glad you enjoy the cube!
Is it just completely idiotic to trim from 540 to 450?
Not at all. I'm a bit worried about the multicolor saturation at 450 if you increased the size of the guild sections and shrank the cube at the same time though.
Did what I trim from your list ruin any of the important archetypes/synergies?
There are several cards I would not have cut, but as far as just the archetype support cards go:
Losing Enlightened Tutor will hurt the consistency of several decks.
Tezzeret the Seeker is an important card for the artifact.dec.
Crystal Shard helps the blink/bounce shells.
Losing Heir to Falkenrath might hurt decks that need discard outlets.
Losing Imperial Seal will hurt every archetype/combo deck.
Living Death is pretty big game for reanimator shells.
Dance of the Dead is not a cuttable card if you want dedicated reanimator to be a thing.
Losing Feldon hurts graveyard decks, the artifact.dec and the ETB abuse deck. He's a stud in almost every archetype red plays.
Selvala's Stampede is clutch for reaching the critical mass needed for Oath shells.
You're cutting at least 3 big artifact creatures, and I think that'll hurt reanimator, Tinker and Sneak/Show strategies.
..........
But like I said, there are a ton of cuts in there that I would not make if I were changing my cube size to 450.
Thanks a ton for your time, man! I respect all of the work you do on your cube.
You're most welcome. Thanks for the kind words. Cheers, and happy cubing!
Hey, wtwlf123! Big fan. After looking at a ton of cubes for inspiration, I decided that yours was the one that I wanted to replicate the most. I trimmed your most recent 540-list into 450 cards (and then added 1 more multicolor card to each guild - I just like too many multicolor cards).
If you're looking for a great 450 list that's very similar what wtwlf is doing with his current list, check out rantipole's 450 cube. That cube would be my starting point if I were looking for a 450 list and I don't believe wtwlf would take any issues with me recommending rant's cube here.
Thanks wtwlf123 for walking through the important cards within your cube. I actually realized there are a lot of cards in your cube that are more important to archetypes than I had previously thought...
Hey, wtwlf123! Big fan. After looking at a ton of cubes for inspiration, I decided that yours was the one that I wanted to replicate the most. I trimmed your most recent 540-list into 450 cards (and then added 1 more multicolor card to each guild - I just like too many multicolor cards).
If you're looking for a great 450 list that's very similar what wtwlf is doing with his current list, check out rantipole's 450 cube. That cube would be my starting point if I were looking for a 450 list and I don't believe wtwlf would take any issues with me recommending rant's cube here.
Also, thanks a ton, Calibretto for pointing out Rantipole's list... I love it for 450. wtwlf123's seems perfect when I can expand to 540, and Rant's is perfect for now.
Hey wtwlf123, have you ever considered writing an article about your cube talking about the way cards interact with eachother and some important archetypes/card choices that you think are necessary in a power cube? Just a thought!
Hey wtwlf123, have you ever considered writing an article about your cube talking about the way cards interact with eachother and some important archetypes/card choices that you think are necessary in a power cube? Just a thought!
check the first post of this thread under the second drop down. It's a bunch of articles that wtwlf has written. Some of it might be relevant.
Well, it would certainly be a different experience, for sure. If that's what you want, go for it. But I think it's important to reward archetype shells with powerful plays since they have to sacrifice individual card powerlevel and deck consistency to achieve them. It sounds like you've been experiencing one side of the variance, but in the end, it evens itself out. Generic aggro/tempo, midrange and control shells win the same percentage of events as the archetype decks do. And they do so by design. (See Below)
Hey wtwlf123, have you ever considered writing an article about your cube talking about the way cards interact with eachother and some important archetypes/card choices that you think are necessary in a power cube? Just a thought!
I have, and in fact, one of my future articles will discuss this very thing. My powered cube experience is different from a lot of the other ones out there that are modeled around the MTGO experience. While combo decks are playable archetypes in my cube, they're not the only game in town. The vast majority of my cube matches will be decided through the red zone. Creatures interact, removal is important for every matchup (in varying degrees, of course), and generic goodstuff shells for aggro, midrange and control are viable strategies to win events with. It's closer to the Legacy/Modern cube in terms of experience, but with a powered cube cardpool.
My next article will be focused around my theory that the current "powered vs unpowered?" question we use as a baseline to define cube expectations is the wrong question. There are other factors/scales that play a much bigger role in your cube experience than whether the list is Vintage-ish or Legacy-ish.
Sure, I'm not saying that the "Archetype" (specifically cheating big creatures in quickly) decks are winning every game, it's mostly just that they reduce the game to a very binary state. If the reanimator deck cheats out a mega-fatty in the first couple of turns, if you have a suitable removal spell for it, the game is practically over in favor of the other deck. And if you don't have a suitable removal spell, the reanimator deck just runs you over and that's that. And when you're drafting to just play one match, it feels extremely anticlimactic either way it pans out. It also means that building a deck like Red Burn or RG Aggro/Midrange gets extremely punished since they literally can't pack any answers to these kinds of threats.
I think I'll try it out and let you know how it feels versus the previous.
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What Wildfire is talking about is something that my own players have brought up to me as well. The answer to it, imo, is that with a pool of 540 cards, the odds of you reliably getting the reanimator package in a glimpse draft, draft, etc.. isn't anywhere near guaranteed. True reanimator decks are rare. Decks that pack a reanimator spell and a discard outlet of some kind, aren't so much. I've seen tons of ways wtwtlf's cube has of cheating in big stuff early in the game. I've had a player go Black Lotus->Mana Vault->Mana Crypt->Inferno Titan->Magus of the Wheel in an organized tournament I hosted with 12 players. Turn 1 9/9 worth of stats take 3 and I'm going to refill my hand. That deck lost to Golgari Recurring Nightmare in some very silly finals.
What's your rationale for including Eternal Dragon? It seems a little clunky/durdly for an environment as fast and high-powered as yours, but maybe I'm misevaluating it?
It's a pet card of mine. But it still pulls its weight. A 2 uncounterable instant-speed dual-land tutor has value, especially since it can bin itself for reanimation strategies and/or be recurred in long, grindy control mirrors. It's not for everybody, but I play it in most of my slower control decks if there are any premium targets for it.
What card off the top of your head would you put in the cube if eternal dragon no longer interested you as a pet card? In fact, if I could be greedy and ask the same question about each of your pet cards?
Ya, it is. I don't have the time to do an analysis of my entire parole board and the role/responsibility of every pet card to create a replacement list for you right now. It's not as simple as "next best card" when you're removing 10+ slots from the cube.
So a 7 for one. Sure, they are all lands but now I will hit the rest of my drops, I have tons of non-land cards in hand since I kept a one-lander, and my draw steps are less likely to be lands.
Won that game easily.
Just want to try out a 1cc removal spell that can kill manlands effectively.
I use one of each promo land and full-art land ever released.
The pictures aren't up to date, but the list is. It'll be expanded in November when the promo foil guild basics come out on Ravnica Weekend.
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Serious question: would putting a single squadron hawk in your cube that gets you 4 copies when you draft it be too strong?
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I have two questions for you:
1. Is it just completely idiotic to trim from 540 to 450? Should I just keep your base 540? My logic was that I like the balance of seeing the power cards/good lands/important synergy cards at 450(and it is a lot more affordable - assuming I proxy the really expensive cards).
2. Did what I trim from your list ruin any of the important archetypes/synergies?
Thanks a ton for your time, man! I respect all of the work you do on your cube.
Welcome! Glad you enjoy the cube!
Not at all. I'm a bit worried about the multicolor saturation at 450 if you increased the size of the guild sections and shrank the cube at the same time though.
There are several cards I would not have cut, but as far as just the archetype support cards go:
Losing Enlightened Tutor will hurt the consistency of several decks.
Tezzeret the Seeker is an important card for the artifact.dec.
Crystal Shard helps the blink/bounce shells.
Losing Heir to Falkenrath might hurt decks that need discard outlets.
Losing Imperial Seal will hurt every archetype/combo deck.
Living Death is pretty big game for reanimator shells.
Dance of the Dead is not a cuttable card if you want dedicated reanimator to be a thing.
Losing Feldon hurts graveyard decks, the artifact.dec and the ETB abuse deck. He's a stud in almost every archetype red plays.
Selvala's Stampede is clutch for reaching the critical mass needed for Oath shells.
You're cutting at least 3 big artifact creatures, and I think that'll hurt reanimator, Tinker and Sneak/Show strategies.
..........
But like I said, there are a ton of cuts in there that I would not make if I were changing my cube size to 450.
You're most welcome. Thanks for the kind words. Cheers, and happy cubing!
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If you're looking for a great 450 list that's very similar what wtwlf is doing with his current list, check out rantipole's 450 cube. That cube would be my starting point if I were looking for a 450 list and I don't believe wtwlf would take any issues with me recommending rant's cube here.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
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I haven't made my Guilds updates yet, but that cubetutor link is up to date.
Cheers,
rant
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Though your cube is getting fat with that 3.27 av. CMC
Also, thanks a ton, Calibretto for pointing out Rantipole's list... I love it for 450. wtwlf123's seems perfect when I can expand to 540, and Rant's is perfect for now.
Hey wtwlf123, have you ever considered writing an article about your cube talking about the way cards interact with eachother and some important archetypes/card choices that you think are necessary in a power cube? Just a thought!
check the first post of this thread under the second drop down. It's a bunch of articles that wtwlf has written. Some of it might be relevant.
I primarily cube 1v1 with my brother, using the Glimpse Draft style.
Whenever we're both on some combination of Aggro/Midrange/Control, absent a few specific cards, games are generally very dynamic.
But when one person is on an "unfair" deck like Reanimator, or any deck with an early Black Lotus, games are a lot more one-sided and unfun.
What would you think of a version of your cube that excludes the following cards and focuses more on the Aggro/Midrange/Control basis?
1 Tinker
1 Entomb
1 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Necromancy
1 Sneak Attack
1 Through the Breach
1 Oath of Druids
1 Eureka
1 Channel
1 Goblin Welder
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobyte
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Griselbrand
1 Bosh, Iron Golem
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ancient Stone Idol
Might keep a couple of those targets in to support Green Ramp
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Well, it would certainly be a different experience, for sure. If that's what you want, go for it. But I think it's important to reward archetype shells with powerful plays since they have to sacrifice individual card powerlevel and deck consistency to achieve them. It sounds like you've been experiencing one side of the variance, but in the end, it evens itself out. Generic aggro/tempo, midrange and control shells win the same percentage of events as the archetype decks do. And they do so by design. (See Below)
I have, and in fact, one of my future articles will discuss this very thing. My powered cube experience is different from a lot of the other ones out there that are modeled around the MTGO experience. While combo decks are playable archetypes in my cube, they're not the only game in town. The vast majority of my cube matches will be decided through the red zone. Creatures interact, removal is important for every matchup (in varying degrees, of course), and generic goodstuff shells for aggro, midrange and control are viable strategies to win events with. It's closer to the Legacy/Modern cube in terms of experience, but with a powered cube cardpool.
My next article will be focused around my theory that the current "powered vs unpowered?" question we use as a baseline to define cube expectations is the wrong question. There are other factors/scales that play a much bigger role in your cube experience than whether the list is Vintage-ish or Legacy-ish.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think I'll try it out and let you know how it feels versus the previous.
Currently Playing:
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TL:DR When everyone is super, no one is.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!