What made you want to swap between Secure the Wastes and Cloudgoat Ranger? Was it the creature tag on Cloudgoat that makes it easier for recurring value decks?
That and the simple mana efficiency. Like, I need to be spending 7W on Secure before it gives me more power than Cloudgoat, and while the flexibility is nice, it just isn't a good card at the lower mana values. And the evasion is a real consideration too. Plus, the token shells want another fixed-cost effect in the 5cc slot, and the big token-centric effects aren't as critical with Avenger and Craterhoof simultaneously coming into green. So a lot of reasons, really.
Thanks for commenting! Glad the thread and set reviews have been useful.
No, we cut Jace, Memory Adept because it wasn't good enough. It has no way to defend itself, can't impact the board, and if it falls short of winning the game, it basically does nothing. It also can't protect me. I'd rather be spending 5 mana on something that can impact the board, prevent me from losing the game AND function as a win condition instead of only one of those three things. It's a fast clock if it's uninterrupted, but if your opponent is ahead on board at all, it's pretty much the last thing in the cube I want to be spending 5 mana on. After lots of play with it, we cut it ...for essentially being a blue Kalonian Hydra that can't block and can be attacked to death in combat.
But that's the beautiful thing about this format! If your playgroup is having success with it, go for it! It would be pretty boring if everyone used the exact same cube list, no?
I kill my opponent just as fast with Hydra as I did with Jace. Jace usually needed a 3rd activation to kill my opponent. So they kill at the same time, except Hydra at least does something on a losing board state, and the damage that it does deal actually means something if Hydra can't finish the opponent off by itself. Unlike Jace, which does absolutely nothing if you're losing, and accomplishes nothing if the opponent deals with it before you mill their entire library. It's more like an Infect win-con if anything, unless you support a deeper mill strategy, that is.
I'd be very curious to hear the reasoning and results of some these latest changes. Toolcraft Exemplar, Rishkar, Peema Renegade, Heart of Kiran, and Kari Zev's Expertise are all cards I've had my eye on for cube. However, my group doesn't get to play as much as we used to, so I try not to make changes too rapidly (before we've gotten a chance to see how the previous changes worked out). I find the Song of the Dryads and Fire Imp curious cards to cut, they've been as solid as ever for my group.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
400 Terastodons and still looking for more!
370 Powered Cube on Cubetutor (it's not always up to date because I primarily use Drive).
I'd be very curious to hear the reasoning and results of some these latest changes. Toolcraft Exemplar, Rishkar, Peema Renegade, Heart of Kiran, and Kari Zev's Expertise are all cards I've had my eye on for cube. However, my group doesn't get to play as much as we used to, so I try not to make changes too rapidly (before we've gotten a chance to see how the previous changes worked out). I find the Song of the Dryads and Fire Imp curious cards to cut, they've been as solid as ever for my group.
Several of the cards are in for testing, so we'll see how they do.
Fire Imp was the most logical cut for Pia. They can both disrupt the opponent's ability to block, but you exchange the removal for extra power, an extra threat, the artifact synergy, and the more proactive set of effects. Since Pia can't get stuck in hand when you have no/bad targets, it has played better in aggressive shells.
Song isn't a cut I'm happy with, but green midrange needs the additional bodies with good power/cost ratios. I like the versatility of hitting lots of different targets, but as light as green is on removal, I'm not sure that a subpar Oblivion Ring is necessary. There are a lot of times where it fails to make the final 40 because it's just the 24th best card and I have access to Pulse or O-Ring or something else from my secondary color already. It's probably green's best removal spell, which is why it's nice to have around, but I'm not sure of Oblivion Ring is strong enough to have a drawback attached to it and still be a premium removal spell.
I like what you're trying with "artifact aggro" - it's a very interesting concept.
Have you some playtest data yet regarding the 1-drop payoff cards (Examplar and Apprentice), and also for the Inspector?
Thanks!
Inspector is more of a midrange card most of the time. It goes into decks with Skyfisher/'Wisp/Resto/'Lark/Titan/Recruiter(s)/Feldon/Alesha/Nightmare/Portal kinds of shenanigans, where it fills a very nice role of 1-drop that provides a strong ETB trigger. It only really goes in aggro if you're either short on dudes, or need the artifact.
So far so good on the Exemplar/Apprentice. It hasn't been hard to reach a reasonable saturation of artifacts in my aggro decks to power these guys up. Midway through pack 3 is a bad time to start keeping an eye on artifact count, but if they're picked up reasonably early OR you mindfully draft a few extra cheap artifacts, they've been quite playable.
I like the inclusion of Rishkar and have been thinking about it myself. Having a +1/+1 counters theme with Experiment One, Tireless Tracker, Rishkar, perhaps Verdurous Gearhulk, Kalonian Hydra, and Curse of Predation seems pretty sweet.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I like the inclusion of Rishkar and have been thinking about it myself. Having a +1/+1 counters theme with Experiment One, Tireless Tracker, Rishkar, perhaps Verdurous Gearhulk, Kalonian Hydra, and Curse of Predation seems pretty sweet.
We were wondering the same exact thing about the exemplar/apprentice duo. Our conclusions has been negative so far though, but we still may be wrong and may haven't schematised the right update in order to make them work. We just figured that the conditionnal higher ceiling they bring doesn't match the reliability of a 2 power 1-drop, even if there's a lot of artifacts already out there. It was more about, we want to be hitting for 2 damage on turn 2. And we all know that in normal circumstances, it's a thing that can be real though with those new Kaladesh 1-drops.
About the rest, it seems really good. We are also currently running Pia Nalaar and she has been fantastic so far. Mainly, we were adding it for extra support for the UR Opposition decks, but it finally also serves really well outside of it and ended up being a strong red aggro card period. For its part, the addition of Verdurous Gearhulk, which is real strong by its own btw, seems welcome considering the fact that you want to maximize the artifact presence in the cube. Same for Tidehollow Sculler. The Abyss come back also makes sense. And I guess it's the same for the addition of Heart of Kiran. Though we personally didn't like it enough, mainly because it's real far from having the same impact in the cube that it has right now in Standard metagame, it still can hit your opponent hard, especially in a midrange planeswalkers shell. The fact that it may serves in aggro shells as well, since you're adding the artifact aggro package, does justify its testing.
Please, leave us additionnal feedbacks as soon as you can!
Thanks for the feedback! I've been having some reasonable testing success with Exemplar/Apprentice so far, but you do need to be paying attention to the artifact count.
Tracker has been in and out of the cube several times already, but I'm probably going to keep it around now, since green needs bodies that have a good power/cost ratio, and Tracker can get pretty big as the game progresses.
Sweet decklist, thanks. I guess 6 to 7 artifact spells that can get on the board as soon as turn 2 is the bottom line for those. They certainly look like effective early beaters in there.
Whit that said, I just can't say I'm happy to see the jungle king go
Yeah, ditto. I'm about 10-15 cards away from fully foiling/pimping my powered 360 and I'm looking at your pics for inspiration. Still need Library of Alexandria, foil MMQ Port, and the champs Mutavault though, so that's a hefty price tag!
Yeah, ditto. I'm about 10-15 cards away from fully foiling/pimping my powered 360 and I'm looking at your pics for inspiration. Still need Library of Alexandria, foil MMQ Port, and the champs Mutavault though, so that's a hefty price tag!
I sold my Masques foil Port and my Champs 'Vault when they spiked. Replaced them with altered versions and banked the rest of the cash. The difference paid for almost 2 years of cube updates in just those 2 cards.
I was wondering about your recent addition of The Abyss. I'm sure you've had this in there before, given how long you've cubed. What are your experiences with the card? Why the re-add now? I have one of these laying around but I've just never imagined where I might want this. It's a cool card and I love the flavor and nostalgia.
It's good for sacrifice decks, same spots where Braids and Smokestack might be good. But it's also good in artifact shells; particularly when most of your win-cons are Abyss-proof. That deck has been bolstered with additional tools lately, and I think now is a good time to try and break Abyss again.
That and the simple mana efficiency. Like, I need to be spending 7W on Secure before it gives me more power than Cloudgoat, and while the flexibility is nice, it just isn't a good card at the lower mana values. And the evasion is a real consideration too. Plus, the token shells want another fixed-cost effect in the 5cc slot, and the big token-centric effects aren't as critical with Avenger and Craterhoof simultaneously coming into green. So a lot of reasons, really.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
No, we cut Jace, Memory Adept because it wasn't good enough. It has no way to defend itself, can't impact the board, and if it falls short of winning the game, it basically does nothing. It also can't protect me. I'd rather be spending 5 mana on something that can impact the board, prevent me from losing the game AND function as a win condition instead of only one of those three things. It's a fast clock if it's uninterrupted, but if your opponent is ahead on board at all, it's pretty much the last thing in the cube I want to be spending 5 mana on. After lots of play with it, we cut it ...for essentially being a blue Kalonian Hydra that can't block and can be attacked to death in combat.
But that's the beautiful thing about this format! If your playgroup is having success with it, go for it! It would be pretty boring if everyone used the exact same cube list, no?
Cheers, and happy cubing!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
All the best!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Kor Haven -----> Thraben Inspector
Savannah Lions -----> Toolcraft Exemplar
Baral, Chief of Compliance -----> Torrential Gearhulk
Collective Brutality -----> The Abyss
Goblin Glory Chaser -----> Inventor's Apprentice
Fire Imp -----> Pia Nalaar
Firestorm -----> Kari Zev's Expertise
Uktabi Orangutan -----> Rishkar, Peema Renegade
Song of the Dryads -----> Tireless Tracker
Viridian Shaman -----> Verdurous Gearhulk
Gerrard's Verdict -----> Tidehollow Sculler
Ankh of Mishra -----> Heart of Kiran
Icy Manipulator -----> Precursor Golem
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
370 Powered Cube on Cubetutor (it's not always up to date because I primarily use Drive).
Have you some playtest data yet regarding the 1-drop payoff cards (Examplar and Apprentice), and also for the Inspector?
Thanks!
Several of the cards are in for testing, so we'll see how they do.
Fire Imp was the most logical cut for Pia. They can both disrupt the opponent's ability to block, but you exchange the removal for extra power, an extra threat, the artifact synergy, and the more proactive set of effects. Since Pia can't get stuck in hand when you have no/bad targets, it has played better in aggressive shells.
Song isn't a cut I'm happy with, but green midrange needs the additional bodies with good power/cost ratios. I like the versatility of hitting lots of different targets, but as light as green is on removal, I'm not sure that a subpar Oblivion Ring is necessary. There are a lot of times where it fails to make the final 40 because it's just the 24th best card and I have access to Pulse or O-Ring or something else from my secondary color already. It's probably green's best removal spell, which is why it's nice to have around, but I'm not sure of Oblivion Ring is strong enough to have a drawback attached to it and still be a premium removal spell.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Inspector is more of a midrange card most of the time. It goes into decks with Skyfisher/'Wisp/Resto/'Lark/Titan/Recruiter(s)/Feldon/Alesha/Nightmare/Portal kinds of shenanigans, where it fills a very nice role of 1-drop that provides a strong ETB trigger. It only really goes in aggro if you're either short on dudes, or need the artifact.
So far so good on the Exemplar/Apprentice. It hasn't been hard to reach a reasonable saturation of artifacts in my aggro decks to power these guys up. Midway through pack 3 is a bad time to start keeping an eye on artifact count, but if they're picked up reasonably early OR you mindfully draft a few extra cheap artifacts, they've been quite playable.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Ya, and don't gorget about their interactions with Hangarback Walker and Walking Ballista too. And also Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. Scavenging Ooze also deals in counters.
I was wondering at what point the theme might be deep enough for cards like Winding Constrictor and even Hardened Scales?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
We were wondering the same exact thing about the exemplar/apprentice duo. Our conclusions has been negative so far though, but we still may be wrong and may haven't schematised the right update in order to make them work. We just figured that the conditionnal higher ceiling they bring doesn't match the reliability of a 2 power 1-drop, even if there's a lot of artifacts already out there. It was more about, we want to be hitting for 2 damage on turn 2. And we all know that in normal circumstances, it's a thing that can be real though with those new Kaladesh 1-drops.
About the rest, it seems really good. We are also currently running Pia Nalaar and she has been fantastic so far. Mainly, we were adding it for extra support for the UR Opposition decks, but it finally also serves really well outside of it and ended up being a strong red aggro card period. For its part, the addition of Verdurous Gearhulk, which is real strong by its own btw, seems welcome considering the fact that you want to maximize the artifact presence in the cube. Same for Tidehollow Sculler. The Abyss come back also makes sense. And I guess it's the same for the addition of Heart of Kiran. Though we personally didn't like it enough, mainly because it's real far from having the same impact in the cube that it has right now in Standard metagame, it still can hit your opponent hard, especially in a midrange planeswalkers shell. The fact that it may serves in aggro shells as well, since you're adding the artifact aggro package, does justify its testing.
Please, leave us additionnal feedbacks as soon as you can!
PS : Tireless Tracker is awesome!
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Here's an example decklist of an "Artifact Aggro" shell: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/690177
..........
Tracker has been in and out of the cube several times already, but I'm probably going to keep it around now, since green needs bodies that have a good power/cost ratio, and Tracker can get pretty big as the game progresses.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Sweet decklist, thanks. I guess 6 to 7 artifact spells that can get on the board as soon as turn 2 is the bottom line for those. They certainly look like effective early beaters in there.
Whit that said, I just can't say I'm happy to see the jungle king go
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I sold my Masques foil Port and my Champs 'Vault when they spiked. Replaced them with altered versions and banked the rest of the cash. The difference paid for almost 2 years of cube updates in just those 2 cards.
It would not make it into my top 7, and I would definitely cut it for Kari Zev.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I was wondering about your recent addition of The Abyss. I'm sure you've had this in there before, given how long you've cubed. What are your experiences with the card? Why the re-add now? I have one of these laying around but I've just never imagined where I might want this. It's a cool card and I love the flavor and nostalgia.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor