Worm Harvest is slow, and expensive for a card that needs lots of lands in the graveyard to be good.
Fastbond wasn't good unless we combined it with cards it could "go off" with. And after we cut Future Sight and Zuran Orb, there weren't enough cards left to combo with it. Hell, even when we did run all those cards, it still didn't do enough. Probably have to run those, plus the Magus, extra draw-7 effects, and extra mass (4+ & X) draw spells like Stroke and Tidings and stuff.
Bottom line, the lands.dec doesn't have enough support to justify it. Yet. If you want to play it, go nuts. But there's a reason we cut all the support cards for it.
Fastbond seems like it can do a lot of unfair stuff with the cards you already have, but I can see where it might not always pull its weight.
BTW, thanks for putting up with my stream of questions. I'm putting together a non-EDH Cube for the first time for playing with my brother over the holidays, and I'm modeling it after your cube, but with a few personal touches to support the kind of decks I like to see.
I feel like Titania is fine in non "Lands.dec" decks though, in a way that the Hydra really is not. Titania into Armageddon, Ravages of War, Catastrophe, Catacylsm, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Death Cloud, Pox, and similar provides a huge board swing.
Hydra into all of these things is just about as good. And Hydra in most other situations is usually better. In 1v1, the 8/8 --> 16/16 trample on a post-Geddon/Wildfire board wins 99% of those same games.
You can hate on Hydra all day long for being less interesting or whatever, but it's simply a better card. It does the same job (if not better) in the situations where Titania is good, without all the situations where Titania is bad. Not to mention that as a "0-power" creature it can be targeted by Imperial Recruiter, Reveillark, and even cards like Alesha occasionally. And the doubling of counters on all creatures has been relevant with Experiment One and Triskelion. So Hydra was better on its own, better in the cases where Titania was supposed to shine, and was actually more interactive with other cube cards.
With Stax effects she seems a lot stronger than the Hdyra. She's also better versus spot removal, as she leaves behind a body (most of the time) instead of nothing.
IDK. The Hydra's certainly not bad, it's just a hard card to get excited about.
Another round of weird questioning:
If I wanted to support Wildfire decks more heavily, is there any way to do that? Destructive Force functions as a third Wildfire effect? Is Devastating Dreams even remotely playable? What else?
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With Stax effects she seems a lot stronger than the Hdyra.
Really? Is it better than just killing your opponent? Also, what Stax decks are playing 5-drops?
Quote from Wildfire393 »
She's also better versus spot removal, as she leaves behind a body (most of the time) instead of nothing.
Sometimes, ya. She also dies to Lightning Bolt and friends, which the Hydra is immune to. And she struggles in combat against regular sized cube creatures ...Hydra does not.
Quote from Wildfire393 »
IDK. The Hydra's certainly not bad, it's just a hard card to get excited about.
I could see people cutting it because it's too good (it's everything I ever wanted Jace, Memory Adept to be) but from a raw powerlevel standpoint, it's ridiculous.
Titania is fine. She's fun, and making 5/3 tokens is cool. But I played the loam.dec archetype for a long time, and even when things are running perfect, she's just plain worse than Kalonian Hydra. Sorry if my results bum you out. Titania needs friends. We need more Loam/Crucible effects, more Titanias and KotRs, cubeable Terravores ...the deck just doesn't have the payoff needed to justify an archetype. When it does, it'll be great, and her regular ceiling will push her into cubeworthiness. But as it stands now, the deck that wants to push Titania to her peak just isn't deep enough.
Woodland Wanderer is going to be better than any Terravore-esque card 99% of the time, Vinecrasher is too narrow and isn't even that great of a payoff when it does work.
Woodland Wanderer is going to be better than any Terravore-esque card 99% of the time, Vinecrasher is too narrow and isn't even that great of a payoff when it does work.
Pretty much this. I mean, you have to jump through a lot of hoops just to play cards that are as good or arguably worse than other options anyways. The payoff just isn't out there yet.
i noticed you've cut all the miracle cards (terminus, bonfire, entreat) from your cube. were they underperforming even at 540? i was doing a sweep through my list recently and settled on terminus as a potential cut, but im surprise you removed bonfire and entreat as well. they always seemed to play well with the mystic/vampiric tutor + sensei's top.dec. which cards did they get replaced by?
I don't know exactly what they were replaced with, but the cut of Personal Tutor hurt their value, and my playgroup just wasn't a fan of Miracle as a mechanic. If I don't have repeatable library/hand manipulation and/or top of library tutors, they just rode the sideboards too often.
fair enough. i like the idea of being able to randomly combo the miracles with vampiric/mystic tutors, but the interaction probably isn't common enough. thanks for the advice
If your playgroup likes how they play outside of decks that can set them up, by all means keep 'em in. They can be very powerful cards. But we disliked the random nature of the mechanic, and they only saw play in decks that had a couple ways to set them up.
wtwlf - I find myself without a Catastrophe (I accidentally grabbed Cataclysm instead from my collection when seeing what I had and didn't have to figure out what I needed to order).
1. I think that a while ago you said that your group doesn't sideboard between games. Is that still the case? If so, I'm wondering when cards like Disenchant, Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle and Powder Keg make the main deck. They all seem like "answer" cards that I wouldn't necessarily want to put in the main deck because they'd be dead cards against certain types of decks...
2. Reanimator never really seems to come together in my cube drafts, even though I'm running basically the same support cards as you (though at 450). I'm thinking it's because without Entomb it's a three card combo deck: discard outlet + reanimation spell + fattie. Does reanimator come together in your drafts without an early Entomb? Does it need to have a "back-up plan" like Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Tinker, or green ramp, or can it stand alone, e.g. in a UB or Grixis control shell? Have you ever run Buried Alive to help reanimator? I know people also used to run Intuition and/or Gifts Ungiven, which could also help UB reanimator. What are your thoughts on those in a 2016 cube?
1. I think that a while ago you said that your group doesn't sideboard between games. Is that still the case? If so, I'm wondering when cards like Disenchant, Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle and Powder Keg make the main deck. They all seem like "answer" cards that I wouldn't necessarily want to put in the main deck because they'd be dead cards against certain types of decks...
2. Reanimator never really seems to come together in my cube drafts, even though I'm running basically the same support cards as you (though at 450). I'm thinking it's because without Entomb it's a three card combo deck: discard outlet + reanimation spell + fattie. Does reanimator come together in your drafts without an early Entomb? Does it need to have a "back-up plan" like Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Tinker, or green ramp, or can it stand alone, e.g. in a UB or Grixis control shell? Have you ever run Buried Alive to help reanimator? I know people also used to run Intuition and/or Gifts Ungiven, which could also help UB reanimator. What are your thoughts on those in a 2016 cube?
I personally maindeck Disenchant 100% of the time. It rarely does not have any target and can lead to some sweet plays.
2. Reanimator never really seems to come together in my cube drafts, even though I'm running basically the same support cards as you (though at 450). I'm thinking it's because without Entomb it's a three card combo deck: discard outlet + reanimation spell + fattie. Does reanimator come together in your drafts without an early Entomb? Does it need to have a "back-up plan" like Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Tinker, or green ramp, or can it stand alone, e.g. in a UB or Grixis control shell? Have you ever run Buried Alive to help reanimator? I know people also used to run Intuition and/or Gifts Ungiven, which could also help UB reanimator. What are your thoughts on those in a 2016 cube?
I run the same cube as wtwlf123 and in my experience, reanimator can be a thing but it's best to combine it with another strategy. For example most of the reanimator cards allow you to pick a creature in any graveyard, so combining reanimator + hand hate can be effective. I've managed to win games using this strategy thanks to Hymn to Tourach, Gerrard's Verdict, thoughtseize and the like combined with Necromancy and other cards like it. It's funny and it works.
1. I think that a while ago you said that your group doesn't sideboard between games. Is that still the case? If so, I'm wondering when cards like Disenchant, Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle and Powder Keg make the main deck. They all seem like "answer" cards that I wouldn't necessarily want to put in the main deck because they'd be dead cards against certain types of decks...
2. Reanimator never really seems to come together in my cube drafts, even though I'm running basically the same support cards as you (though at 450). I'm thinking it's because without Entomb it's a three card combo deck: discard outlet + reanimation spell + fattie. Does reanimator come together in your drafts without an early Entomb? Does it need to have a "back-up plan" like Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Tinker, or green ramp, or can it stand alone, e.g. in a UB or Grixis control shell? Have you ever run Buried Alive to help reanimator? I know people also used to run Intuition and/or Gifts Ungiven, which could also help UB reanimator. What are your thoughts on those in a 2016 cube?
1. Sometimes we sideboard and sometimes we don't. It depends on what the group is in the mood for, how fast we want to play, etc. All of those cards make the maindeck though, all of the time. They always have relevant targets.
2. Dedicated reanimator decks win all the time, and they don't need an early Entomb to work. I don't think Buried Alive or Intuition are any good, and I wouldn't run Gifts without Unburial Rites in a cube at this time.
The 2-power 1-drops and the powerful gold cards are the most important. It can occasionally be a base color for an aggro deck, but it's designed to be your 2nd color, providing like 6-8 cards to the final 23 typically. Rancor, Lotus Cobra, Plow Under, Garruk Relentless and 'Goyf are cards I look for to make me more likely to play an aggressive green deck. That, and the sick multicolor green cards like Warden, BBE, Yasova and Edric.
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Dryad Militant and Horizon Canopy seem uncuttable, so that only leaves Mirari's Wake and Qasali Pridemage.
Yeah, Wurm Harvest likely isn't worthwhile. I feel like Titania is fine in non "Lands.dec" decks though, in a way that the Hydra really is not. Titania into Armageddon, Ravages of War, Catastrophe, Catacylsm, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Death Cloud, Pox, and similar provides a huge board swing.
Fastbond seems like it can do a lot of unfair stuff with the cards you already have, but I can see where it might not always pull its weight.
BTW, thanks for putting up with my stream of questions. I'm putting together a non-EDH Cube for the first time for playing with my brother over the holidays, and I'm modeling it after your cube, but with a few personal touches to support the kind of decks I like to see.
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Hydra into all of these things is just about as good. And Hydra in most other situations is usually better. In 1v1, the 8/8 --> 16/16 trample on a post-Geddon/Wildfire board wins 99% of those same games.
You can hate on Hydra all day long for being less interesting or whatever, but it's simply a better card. It does the same job (if not better) in the situations where Titania is good, without all the situations where Titania is bad. Not to mention that as a "0-power" creature it can be targeted by Imperial Recruiter, Reveillark, and even cards like Alesha occasionally. And the doubling of counters on all creatures has been relevant with Experiment One and Triskelion. So Hydra was better on its own, better in the cases where Titania was supposed to shine, and was actually more interactive with other cube cards.
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IDK. The Hydra's certainly not bad, it's just a hard card to get excited about.
Another round of weird questioning:
If I wanted to support Wildfire decks more heavily, is there any way to do that? Destructive Force functions as a third Wildfire effect? Is Devastating Dreams even remotely playable? What else?
Currently Playing:
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Really? Is it better than just killing your opponent? Also, what Stax decks are playing 5-drops?
Sometimes, ya. She also dies to Lightning Bolt and friends, which the Hydra is immune to. And she struggles in combat against regular sized cube creatures ...Hydra does not.
I could see people cutting it because it's too good (it's everything I ever wanted Jace, Memory Adept to be) but from a raw powerlevel standpoint, it's ridiculous.
Titania is fine. She's fun, and making 5/3 tokens is cool. But I played the loam.dec archetype for a long time, and even when things are running perfect, she's just plain worse than Kalonian Hydra. Sorry if my results bum you out. Titania needs friends. We need more Loam/Crucible effects, more Titanias and KotRs, cubeable Terravores ...the deck just doesn't have the payoff needed to justify an archetype. When it does, it'll be great, and her regular ceiling will push her into cubeworthiness. But as it stands now, the deck that wants to push Titania to her peak just isn't deep enough.
Titania, Protector of Argoth is to Kalonian Hydra what Wingmate Roc is to Baneslayer Angel.
Not really. You could always use Ember Swallower I guess. The deck functions fine with 2x Wildfires, 2x Earthquakes + tutors.
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Pretty much this. I mean, you have to jump through a lot of hoops just to play cards that are as good or arguably worse than other options anyways. The payoff just isn't out there yet.
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i noticed you've cut all the miracle cards (terminus, bonfire, entreat) from your cube. were they underperforming even at 540? i was doing a sweep through my list recently and settled on terminus as a potential cut, but im surprise you removed bonfire and entreat as well. they always seemed to play well with the mystic/vampiric tutor + sensei's top.dec. which cards did they get replaced by?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Any suggestions on what I could replace it with?
Another wrath? (Terminus, Akroma's Vengeance, Austere Command)
An expensive creature? (Karmic Guide tops my list)
Another expensive spell? (Dictate of Heliod maybe?)
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1. I think that a while ago you said that your group doesn't sideboard between games. Is that still the case? If so, I'm wondering when cards like Disenchant, Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle and Powder Keg make the main deck. They all seem like "answer" cards that I wouldn't necessarily want to put in the main deck because they'd be dead cards against certain types of decks...
2. Reanimator never really seems to come together in my cube drafts, even though I'm running basically the same support cards as you (though at 450). I'm thinking it's because without Entomb it's a three card combo deck: discard outlet + reanimation spell + fattie. Does reanimator come together in your drafts without an early Entomb? Does it need to have a "back-up plan" like Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Tinker, or green ramp, or can it stand alone, e.g. in a UB or Grixis control shell? Have you ever run Buried Alive to help reanimator? I know people also used to run Intuition and/or Gifts Ungiven, which could also help UB reanimator. What are your thoughts on those in a 2016 cube?
I personally maindeck Disenchant 100% of the time. It rarely does not have any target and can lead to some sweet plays.
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I run the same cube as wtwlf123 and in my experience, reanimator can be a thing but it's best to combine it with another strategy. For example most of the reanimator cards allow you to pick a creature in any graveyard, so combining reanimator + hand hate can be effective. I've managed to win games using this strategy thanks to Hymn to Tourach, Gerrard's Verdict, thoughtseize and the like combined with Necromancy and other cards like it. It's funny and it works.
1. Sometimes we sideboard and sometimes we don't. It depends on what the group is in the mood for, how fast we want to play, etc. All of those cards make the maindeck though, all of the time. They always have relevant targets.
2. Dedicated reanimator decks win all the time, and they don't need an early Entomb to work. I don't think Buried Alive or Intuition are any good, and I wouldn't run Gifts without Unburial Rites in a cube at this time.
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http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/5122
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Thanks to all the folks that follow and contribute to my cube thread! Regulars, followers and lurkers alike. I've had a blast discussing cube with everyone here.
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My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!