I don't know if you've already commented on this, but how has Prophetic Flamespeaker been for you? Rabblemaster is a very fun card (I thoroughly enjoyed playing with it at the prerelease) but Flamespeaker seems like he has more raw power. That guy carrying a sword or something is ridiculous.
I haven't tested Prophetic Flamespeaker, and I can't speak for wtwlf123, but I can't see it being better than Rabblemaster. On an open board, it's the most damage in a three mana investment ever. In a closed board, it's not horrible either, but it does lose much of its value. Prophetic Flamespeaker would likely be just as bad in the same scenarios, sans 2 damage enemy burn and the majority (but not all) of equipment scenarios.
I've been a fan of Flamespeaker. Good damage output and the card advantage is sweet. Even when I don't get to play the cards I am exiling it has been good for digging through stuff.
Flamespeaker is a solid dude, but he's not the perfect fit any of red's decks (except the heavy-red aggressive-midrange deck with lots of creature power buffs). Rabblemaster is bonkers good, it's easier to cast and fits into several of red's archetypes, and it's better at face value. And as Colby mentioned, it represents the greatest amount of raw damage from any 3-drop in the cube.
..........
Additionally:
ATTENTION
I have some interesting news about the current composition of the cube. My regular cube group may be getting smaller again. If and when that happens, I'm going to have to strongly consider going down to 375 (360 + 15) in order to continue delivering the same quality product I can provide for them now. If we drop back to 2-6 as the common draft size instead of 4-8, the smaller cube size will make more sense for my playgroup at that point. So before a major change goes down, just wanted to give you guys the heads up.
Surprisingly, they're not. My list of 90 cuts is more or less ready if I decide to pull the trigger, and 80 or so of them were relatively easy.
I mean, the ones that were hard were really difficult, and it would be hard to say goodbye to a lot of the pet cards I've grown attached to, but it could be done if I think it's ultimately the best thing for my group's collective cubing experience.
I definitely agree that Rabblemaster is super good and should be included, it's just not clear that Flamespeaker should be the cut. I might cut Mogg Fanatic for it (or in your case Goblin Bombardment, although that card is also sweet).
I just don't want to have a glut of 3cc cards bogging down that cmc in red. There's a lot of good spells at that cc in red, in addition to a ton of good colorless cards that want to be in red decks that also cost 3 mana.
Dude! Flamespeaker is probably my favourite 3CMC red creature. It's also a non-utility one, rather than Recruiter + Vandal which aren't offensive powerhouses. We just pack equipment in our red aggro decks, and we find he plays well in every deck, not just the midrangey ones. That said I'm definitely making space for Rabblemaster in some capacity, that card seems to be testing well for people. The red two drops in M15 are pretty nice as well and at least one or two will get a trial.
Interested to see your changes - cutting to 360 is just a matter of reducing the fat in each section; you still need a certain number of cards doing a certain number of jobs. I actually didn't find it so hard. We just cut the worst 4CMC white creature, the worst couple of two-drops here and there, etc. What is tricky is trying to support as many archetypes as you currently are within that frame. I think it is still doable, but may take a bit of post-purge tweaking. You need to include some objectively weaker cards just to hit enough redundancy, even at 360.
We are getting a few more 4 person drafts in now, but obviously 360 (+10) is still fine for that!
I would agree. I already did the 540 cut-down to 450. And that wasn't bad (I cut so much, I went down to ~425, before I made a massive revision getting me up to 450). Going from 450 to 360, I think and I agree with you -- would be br00tal.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
I just did the same thing (going from 450 to 360) for the same reasons (playgroup typically 2-6 strong), and it was surprisingly easy. There's just a bunch of cards that are "merely really good" as opposed to "absolute top quality". You will have to make some tough choices, i.e. no longer supporting some archetypes and cutting some long-time staples, but it's certainly doable.
Dude! Flamespeaker is probably my favourite 3CMC red creature. It's also a non-utility one, rather than Recruiter + Vandal which aren't offensive powerhouses. We just pack equipment in our red aggro decks, and we find he plays well in every deck, not just the midrangey ones. That said I'm definitely making space for Rabblemaster in some capacity, that card seems to be testing well for people. The red two drops in M15 are pretty nice as well and at least one or two will get a trial.
Interested to see your changes - cutting to 360 is just a matter of reducing the fat in each section; you still need a certain number of cards doing a certain number of jobs. I actually didn't find it so hard. We just cut the worst 4CMC white creature, the worst couple of two-drops here and there, etc. What is tricky is trying to support as many archetypes as you currently are within that frame. I think it is still doable, but may take a bit of post-purge tweaking. You need to include some objectively weaker cards just to hit enough redundancy, even at 360.
We are getting a few more 4 person drafts in now, but obviously 360 (+10) is still fine for that!
I won't be able to. The artifact.dec package, super ramp/fatty cheating and a few others would be scaled back pretty dramatically and/or removed altogether. Not just for space, but also because they become a lot harder to assemble with fewer players. Things like tokens/anthems and blink/bounce utilize almost exclusively cards that are good enough on their own, making them ideal "archetypes" for smaller playgroups. I'll still be supporting reanimator as my true combo archetype, but all the rest would need to be reduced to using cards that are good on their own and in their respective archetype.
And in regards to Flamespeaker, he's an awesome dude, but he just never felt "perfect" for any one deck I was trying to sculpt.
I would agree. I already did the 540 cut-down to 450. And that wasn't bad (I cut so much, I went down to ~425, before I made a massive revision getting me up to 450). Going from 450 to 360, I think and I agree with you -- would be br00tal.
It's a matter of saying goodbye to a few archetype packages and some pet cards, primarily. But it it's ultimately the best thing for the health of the cubing experience, I'll need to go for it.
I just did the same thing (going from 450 to 360) for the same reasons (playgroup typically 2-6 strong), and it was surprisingly easy. There's just a bunch of cards that are "merely really good" as opposed to "absolute top quality". You will have to make some tough choices, i.e. no longer supporting some archetypes and cutting some long-time staples, but it's certainly doable.
Very interested to see your list, also.
Once it's completely finished, I'll reveal it. Unless I chicken out on the whole thing, that is.
Anyway, seeing your Cube go from 450+ to 360+ is both interesting and sad for me as a 450 cards Cube manager. It is interesting as a thought experiment (what are the staples of the format in your eyes?), it is sad because of all the niche archetypes and cards that will be dropped.
I agree. But remember that there will be cards that get removed that could very well be "staples" for other cubes. A 360 card cube engineered for 6-8 player drafting may have a totally different suite of cards than a 360 cube designed to cater to 2-5 player events. The resulting list wouldn't necessarily be a conglomeration of staples, but more of an environment I feel will be better suited to deliver to smaller player formats (Winston, Sealed, 4-6 player drafts, etc).
I'm weighing the pros and cons still. Tighter, more powerful list that better caters to the size of my average draft group at the cost of fun cards, pet cards, a few archetypes and some niche/fringe archetype support cards for the remaining decks. It's a tough decision. Coming up with the list of cuts was actually easier than the decision to pull the trigger or not.
Did you add any cards going from 450 to 360? Yawgmoth's Will and Ranger of Eos are two cards in-particular that are odd/contrarian in that they get better the smaller your list is.
There are currently 2 cards that are in that are not in my 465 list. But neither are the ones you listed there. Even though they're both good examples of cards that are better in smaller lists.
@cuttups: Haha, awesome! I've played a lot of 360, 450 and 540 over the years, and as my cube group evolves and changes, the cube changes to reflect it. There's nothing wrong with curves, so long as that's what the playgroup needs.
@Colby: For sure dude, I've always liked to have my cube be as small as possible so long as it delivers the right product to my drafters. That number was 450 for quite some time, but the situation might be changing to the point where a 360 card cube would provide the best experience for us.
As you can see, I still haven't decided 100%. It's going to take a while, and a lot of talking with my playgroup. And this whole thing has gotten in the way of me writing my M15 Preview article... Still hope to have that thing done before the weekend.
As you can probably tell from my pic, I'm not as much interested in "lean" as I am "quality"
For my group (we can be as clean as a 2-3 man Sealed Deck/Down and Dirty draft; or up to 8-10 guys), the current Cube at 450 is perfect. The packages offered, the power of the cards and the interactions is just right. There may be a very small percentage of cards that can always shift one direction or the other, but having that diversity and capability of changing, I think, is in every Cube. None of them are ever a "finished product".
Having said that, I have enough confidence in my Cube as it stands right now, that we're going to be planning a 10-man (2-pod) Cube draft -- probably for September. While I hope that happens, that may also require another Running Diary Article.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
If I was getting projected 10-man events, this change wouldn't even be under consideration. But like I said, a small group benefits more from a smaller cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
TL;DR: IMO - Rabblemaster > Flamespeaker.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
..........
Additionally:
ATTENTION
I have some interesting news about the current composition of the cube. My regular cube group may be getting smaller again. If and when that happens, I'm going to have to strongly consider going down to 375 (360 + 15) in order to continue delivering the same quality product I can provide for them now. If we drop back to 2-6 as the common draft size instead of 4-8, the smaller cube size will make more sense for my playgroup at that point. So before a major change goes down, just wanted to give you guys the heads up.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
I mean, the ones that were hard were really difficult, and it would be hard to say goodbye to a lot of the pet cards I've grown attached to, but it could be done if I think it's ultimately the best thing for my group's collective cubing experience.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I have to test them.
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Interested to see your changes - cutting to 360 is just a matter of reducing the fat in each section; you still need a certain number of cards doing a certain number of jobs. I actually didn't find it so hard. We just cut the worst 4CMC white creature, the worst couple of two-drops here and there, etc. What is tricky is trying to support as many archetypes as you currently are within that frame. I think it is still doable, but may take a bit of post-purge tweaking. You need to include some objectively weaker cards just to hit enough redundancy, even at 360.
We are getting a few more 4 person drafts in now, but obviously 360 (+10) is still fine for that!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Give us the list!
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
I would agree. I already did the 540 cut-down to 450. And that wasn't bad (I cut so much, I went down to ~425, before I made a massive revision getting me up to 450). Going from 450 to 360, I think and I agree with you -- would be br00tal.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
Very interested to see your list, also.
A Comprehensive list of Cube Archetypes
I won't be able to. The artifact.dec package, super ramp/fatty cheating and a few others would be scaled back pretty dramatically and/or removed altogether. Not just for space, but also because they become a lot harder to assemble with fewer players. Things like tokens/anthems and blink/bounce utilize almost exclusively cards that are good enough on their own, making them ideal "archetypes" for smaller playgroups. I'll still be supporting reanimator as my true combo archetype, but all the rest would need to be reduced to using cards that are good on their own and in their respective archetype.
And in regards to Flamespeaker, he's an awesome dude, but he just never felt "perfect" for any one deck I was trying to sculpt.
Not until I'm done messing around with it. If I pull the trigger soon, you'll see all the cuts then.
It's a matter of saying goodbye to a few archetype packages and some pet cards, primarily. But it it's ultimately the best thing for the health of the cubing experience, I'll need to go for it.
Once it's completely finished, I'll reveal it. Unless I chicken out on the whole thing, that is.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Anyway, seeing your Cube go from 450+ to 360+ is both interesting and sad for me as a 450 cards Cube manager. It is interesting as a thought experiment (what are the staples of the format in your eyes?), it is sad because of all the niche archetypes and cards that will be dropped.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
I'm weighing the pros and cons still. Tighter, more powerful list that better caters to the size of my average draft group at the cost of fun cards, pet cards, a few archetypes and some niche/fringe archetype support cards for the remaining decks. It's a tough decision. Coming up with the list of cuts was actually easier than the decision to pull the trigger or not.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
http://stylecaster.com/12-celebrities-who-yo-yo-in-size/
I wouldn't be surprised if it was back up again within the year.
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
*raises beer* TO 360 GODDAMNIT.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
@Colby: For sure dude, I've always liked to have my cube be as small as possible so long as it delivers the right product to my drafters. That number was 450 for quite some time, but the situation might be changing to the point where a 360 card cube would provide the best experience for us.
As you can see, I still haven't decided 100%. It's going to take a while, and a lot of talking with my playgroup. And this whole thing has gotten in the way of me writing my M15 Preview article... Still hope to have that thing done before the weekend.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
For my group (we can be as clean as a 2-3 man Sealed Deck/Down and Dirty draft; or up to 8-10 guys), the current Cube at 450 is perfect. The packages offered, the power of the cards and the interactions is just right. There may be a very small percentage of cards that can always shift one direction or the other, but having that diversity and capability of changing, I think, is in every Cube. None of them are ever a "finished product".
Having said that, I have enough confidence in my Cube as it stands right now, that we're going to be planning a 10-man (2-pod) Cube draft -- probably for September. While I hope that happens, that may also require another Running Diary Article.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!