That's quite a change! I thought I'd leave some thoughts and questions I had after reading over everything - if you aren't looking for this kind of feedback/engagement on the changes feel free to ignore this. But it seemed like a good opportunity for me to learn some things about some cards I've overlooked or to re-evaluate some of the choices in my own cube through the lens of this slimmer 450 wtwlf123 list!
Very surprised to see Wishclaw Talisman still kicking around! This is one I may need to give a second look. I thought it was mostly there to be cute with blink effects like Aminatou, but given that it has still stuck around even in this slimmer list, I have to ask if there is something more to it than that I have been missing.
Also interesting to see Magus of the Order make the cut at the smaller size. I guess that means that card has really been working out for you - another I should take a second look at!
No more Mirari's Wake! Very sad - I get it though; I've been thinking about cutting this one myself lately. I feel it is getting harder to justify even though its another one of my favorite cards for old time's sake.
I notice you kept Abrupt Decay over Assassin's Trophy. Do you generally like decay more? I went the other way myself and would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind that choice!
I assume there is a method to the madness of which guilds got Talismans and which got Signets? As someone who switched over to the Talismans wholesale once Modern Horizons dropped and hasn't looked back, I'm eager to hear what you have to say on this as well.
As rantipole pointed out, it's notable (and I will say jokingly say admirable!) that you have kept so much of the guild fixing lands. You are currently running one more each at 450 than I am running in my 540 cube... and my heart tells me I should be running more fixing. It's just so hard to find the cuts.
What's more interesting to me about the land section is the lack of so many of the manlands! As someone who was a proponent of them for awhile I am surprised to see them mostly gone. Do you simply feel that the etb tapped lands are too slow for today's manabases to be worth it, or is there another reason that they have gone by the wayside here I am missing?
This is definitely a big change, and hopefully it is an exciting one for you and your playgroup. I look forward to seeing how this smaller 450 list evolves from here on out.
Intimidator was solid, but when Berserker's on, he's on in a big way and not having to pay to gain access to the evasive 3-power threat is boss.
Talisman is a very serviceable tutor effect, and it's really strong with Teferi, the Welders, and Opposition Agent.
Natural Order is a powerful effect, and it's nice to have some redundancy there.
Thrun, Ambusher and Chariot are all close. But with the new goal changes, Thrun will be a good control killer.
I will miss Wake, but the slots are just too tight.
I kept Decay over Trophy because it's a better answer to Moxen and Sol Ring and the like. In an unpowered list of the same size, I'd go with the Trophy.
I kept Signets in the blue color combinations, since blue control decks are going to be more averse to taking damage. But you can't go wrong either way here.
Ya, I kept the higher fixing concentration. Especially since it's focussed more on guild fixing. I want enough for my 2-color decks to shine, but for 3-color decks to have to work hard to get the fixing.
Manlands are still great. At the moment, I'm prioritizing the fixing that enters untapped and always provides either color of mana (even on T1). The exceptions to this are Colonnade and Tar Pit, since the evasion makes them so busted. I play every manland that can attack for at least 2 as long as it either has evasion or can attack for more than it's activation cost. I play every manland that meets that description, and I cut all the ones that don't.
Wow, I’m super curious about all the cuts you made from 720 to 450! But I’m even MORE excited that our cubes are the same size now, and comparisons will be easier to draw.
I thought the way you incorporated combo pieces was brilliant, but if I were you, my heart would have been grieving over the loss of all those precious unique slots every draft haha. Cutting Splinter Twin a few months ago but hard to do, but it opened about 3 blue slots as well that now enables consistent tempo decks.
I completely agree with the manland assessment. I’ve removed all of mine except WU and UB, because they are a different tier than the rest. But every other remaining dual land I have comes in untapped. And now that I’ve finally snagged Wrenn and Six, Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, and the Horizon Lands without spending REAL quarantine dollars (thank you Card Kingdom Sell Orders) I’m thrilled that the near future will include very powerful, classic archetype/theatre matchups.
Is there a best location for your old 720 list, for research purposes in case I ever twiddle with combo packages?
Wow, I’m super curious about all the cuts you made from 720 to 450! But I’m even MORE excited that our cubes are the same size now, and comparisons will be easier to draw.
I thought the way you incorporated combo pieces was brilliant, but if I were you, my heart would have been grieving over the loss of all those precious unique slots every draft haha. Cutting Splinter Twin a few months ago but hard to do, but it opened about 3 blue slots as well that now enables consistent tempo decks.
I completely agree with the manland assessment. I’ve removed all of mine except WU and UB, because they are a different tier than the rest. But every other remaining dual land I have comes in untapped. And now that I’ve finally snagged Wrenn and Six, Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, and the Horizon Lands without spending REAL quarantine dollars (thank you Card Kingdom Sell Orders) I’m thrilled that the near future will include very powerful, classic archetype/theatre matchups.
Is there a best location for your old 720 list, for research purposes in case I ever twiddle with combo packages?
- I might have to agree with you on your assessment of Splinter Twin ... I'm still reluctant to cut it. It was and has always been tied as favorite modern/ legacy deck next to affinity. I been considering allowing duplicates but to a maximum of 3 to help round out some combo archetypes struggling a bit with consistency. (Right now this is - Splinter Twin, Lion's Eye Diamond only)
- I'm on the fence slightly about Creeping Tar pit. I'm considering Fetid Pools and Sunken Hollow to keep my density of island slightly higher for Gush and High Tide. I'm actually a bit more impressed by Raging Ravine and i think its the second strongest man land right now - I don't think its an objectively stronger land, but its in a color combination that really would like it.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I respect that effort, and I've greatly enjoyed the bicycle lands for and - however I believe Creeping Tar Pit is secretly in Dimir's Top 5 cards, and it feels like cheating that it slots as a land. Playing it as a guild card would feel awful, but it might be correct lol.
I'm actually a bit more impressed by Raging Ravine and I think its the second strongest man land right now - I don't think its an objectively stronger land, but its in a color combination that really would like it.
I may be the weirdo here, but until the ally horizon lands drop, I think Grove of the Burnwillows is the 4th best untapped land we have. I don't (yet) support green aggro, so the life gain isn't counterproductive for my Gruul decks. It's damn good for midrange.
@Wtwlf123 speaking of which, obviously the green lions are the most important aspect of the aggro package, but which do you value more for the archetype: aggressive green 2-drops, 3-drops or 4-drops? What green creatures have shined for you in aggro decks from 720 and back down? Seems like it might just be Tarmy and Questing Beast that remain purely for efficient beats.
Questing Beast is amazing. I also like Lotus Cobra, Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze in my X/G aggro builds. Alongside Tireless Tracker, Rancor and Plow Under (+ all the 2-power 1-drops) green can contribute to aggro in a pretty sweet way.
I respect that effort, and I've greatly enjoyed the bicycle lands for and - however I believe Creeping Tar Pit is secretly in Dimir's Top 5 cards, and it feels like cheating that it slots as a land. Playing it as a guild card would feel awful, but it might be correct lol.
The more I think about it, the more I like this idea - Lands/ Utility lands could occupy a guild slot.
I been struggling to find a good Dimir + Boros card for the last slots:
- I like the idea of cutting a Dimir card for Creeping Tarpit.
- Boros would appreciate an additional mana fixing, given the aggressive nature of the pair
I've also disliked the options for two of the Tri-cycles. In particular, Naya and Temur.
- After I saw Wtwlf's inclusion of Lair tri-lands, I been thinking about Rith's grove in particular for Naya Aggro/ Landfall. I might cut Wild Nacatl for it.
- I might play Ketria Triome over rattleclaw or Maelstorm wanderer.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
- After I saw Wtwlf's inclusion of Lair tri-lands, I been thinking about Rith's grove in particular for Naya Aggro/ Landfall. I might cut Wild Nacatl for it.
I’m having a really hard time believing that cutting an actual Aggro creature for an Aggro-colored land would HELP Aggro. Aggro decks require more density than any other theatre to stay competitive. And that critter is among the best and most flexible for decks.
I’m curious if the reduction in size will eventually cause any noticeable boost to Tarmogoyf’s average stats for you, wtwlf.
- After I saw Wtwlf's inclusion of Lair tri-lands, I been thinking about Rith's grove in particular for Naya Aggro/ Landfall. I might cut Wild Nacatl for it.
I’m having a really hard time believing that cutting an actual Aggro creature for an Aggro-colored land would HELP Aggro. Aggro decks require more density than any other theatre to stay competitive. And that critter is among the best and most flexible for decks.
This was actually a really badly written/ thought out sentence from earlier.
Its just I have a set number of 1 drops in my cube. The Wild Nacat was in my cube not because it was good or anything, but more or less to balance out the shard colors. I should have added that "I have a set number of 1 drops in my cube" - this was a set minimum I computed based on the assumption there is an expected value of around 3 aggressive decks in any draft pod
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Also happy to see the changes! I rigorously followed your cube updates back when you had 450 list for inspiration, but once you upgraded to 720 it became pretty pointless since I maintain a 360 cube.
@rantipole @wtwlf123 I'm also curious about cutting Garruk Relentless and Chandra, Flamecaller. I can understand if you simply needed the slot for red, but IMO Garruk usually feels like the best green token generating card that isn't a hermit. Re etnyl I've felt running Flamecaller is more of a personal choice than a power determination - but I adore the card, so it's staying.
I'm looking to fit in Nissa, VoZ and test Magus of the Order and add back 1 or 2 1cc aggro guys to green. In that context, Garruk Relentless starts to look expendable.
Expendable is probably the wrong word, since he's still really good. He's on my short list to re-include at some point, but I need to playtest 450 for a bit before I start tinkering.
I don't at the moment, but it's a project I'd like to start soon. I'm looking to do scans of the cube and upload the images to Cobra so I can draft with custom images.
I don't at the moment, but it's a project I'd like to start soon. I'm looking to do scans of the cube and upload the images to Cobra so I can draft with custom images.
Do you intend on adding Time Spiral Remastered old frame cards? Some of those look sick.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
This is definitely a big change, and hopefully it is an exciting one for you and your playgroup. I look forward to seeing how this smaller 450 list evolves from here on out.
My 36+ Commander Decks: TAPPEDOUT
Talisman is a very serviceable tutor effect, and it's really strong with Teferi, the Welders, and Opposition Agent.
Natural Order is a powerful effect, and it's nice to have some redundancy there.
Thrun, Ambusher and Chariot are all close. But with the new goal changes, Thrun will be a good control killer.
I will miss Wake, but the slots are just too tight.
I kept Decay over Trophy because it's a better answer to Moxen and Sol Ring and the like. In an unpowered list of the same size, I'd go with the Trophy.
I kept Signets in the blue color combinations, since blue control decks are going to be more averse to taking damage. But you can't go wrong either way here.
Ya, I kept the higher fixing concentration. Especially since it's focussed more on guild fixing. I want enough for my 2-color decks to shine, but for 3-color decks to have to work hard to get the fixing.
Manlands are still great. At the moment, I'm prioritizing the fixing that enters untapped and always provides either color of mana (even on T1). The exceptions to this are Colonnade and Tar Pit, since the evasion makes them so busted. I play every manland that can attack for at least 2 as long as it either has evasion or can attack for more than it's activation cost. I play every manland that meets that description, and I cut all the ones that don't.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I thought the way you incorporated combo pieces was brilliant, but if I were you, my heart would have been grieving over the loss of all those precious unique slots every draft haha. Cutting Splinter Twin a few months ago but hard to do, but it opened about 3 blue slots as well that now enables consistent tempo decks.
I completely agree with the manland assessment. I’ve removed all of mine except WU and UB, because they are a different tier than the rest. But every other remaining dual land I have comes in untapped. And now that I’ve finally snagged Wrenn and Six, Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, and the Horizon Lands without spending REAL quarantine dollars (thank you Card Kingdom Sell Orders) I’m thrilled that the near future will include very powerful, classic archetype/theatre matchups.
Is there a best location for your old 720 list, for research purposes in case I ever twiddle with combo packages?
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
I'm looking forward to exploring this cube size for a while.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
- I might have to agree with you on your assessment of Splinter Twin ... I'm still reluctant to cut it. It was and has always been tied as favorite modern/ legacy deck next to affinity. I been considering allowing duplicates but to a maximum of 3 to help round out some combo archetypes struggling a bit with consistency. (Right now this is - Splinter Twin, Lion's Eye Diamond only)
- I'm on the fence slightly about Creeping Tar pit. I'm considering Fetid Pools and Sunken Hollow to keep my density of island slightly higher for Gush and High Tide. I'm actually a bit more impressed by Raging Ravine and i think its the second strongest man land right now - I don't think its an objectively stronger land, but its in a color combination that really would like it.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I respect that effort, and I've greatly enjoyed the bicycle lands for and - however I believe Creeping Tar Pit is secretly in Dimir's Top 5 cards, and it feels like cheating that it slots as a land. Playing it as a guild card would feel awful, but it might be correct lol.
I may be the weirdo here, but until the ally horizon lands drop, I think Grove of the Burnwillows is the 4th best untapped land we have. I don't (yet) support green aggro, so the life gain isn't counterproductive for my Gruul decks. It's damn good for midrange.
@Wtwlf123 speaking of which, obviously the green lions are the most important aspect of the aggro package, but which do you value more for the archetype: aggressive green 2-drops, 3-drops or 4-drops? What green creatures have shined for you in aggro decks from 720 and back down? Seems like it might just be Tarmy and Questing Beast that remain purely for efficient beats.
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
The more I think about it, the more I like this idea - Lands/ Utility lands could occupy a guild slot.
I been struggling to find a good Dimir + Boros card for the last slots:
- I like the idea of cutting a Dimir card for Creeping Tarpit.
- Boros would appreciate an additional mana fixing, given the aggressive nature of the pair
I've also disliked the options for two of the Tri-cycles. In particular, Naya and Temur.
- After I saw Wtwlf's inclusion of Lair tri-lands, I been thinking about Rith's grove in particular for Naya Aggro/ Landfall. I might cut Wild Nacatl for it.
- I might play Ketria Triome over rattleclaw or Maelstorm wanderer.
- Gavony Township will be on the watchlist.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I’m having a really hard time believing that cutting an actual Aggro creature for an Aggro-colored land would HELP Aggro. Aggro decks require more density than any other theatre to stay competitive. And that critter is among the best and most flexible for decks.
I’m curious if the reduction in size will eventually cause any noticeable boost to Tarmogoyf’s average stats for you, wtwlf.
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
This was actually a really badly written/ thought out sentence from earlier.
Its just I have a set number of 1 drops in my cube. The Wild Nacat was in my cube not because it was good or anything, but more or less to balance out the shard colors. I should have added that "I have a set number of 1 drops in my cube" - this was a set minimum I computed based on the assumption there is an expected value of around 3 aggressive decks in any draft pod
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I've been trying to find room in my cube for Crawling Barrens. What are your thoughts on the card?
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
Garruk Relentless is a great card, and is on the short list for returning. Cuts are hard when you want to support green aggro.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I'm looking to fit in Nissa, VoZ and test Magus of the Order and add back 1 or 2 1cc aggro guys to green. In that context, Garruk Relentless starts to look expendable.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Do you intend on adding Time Spiral Remastered old frame cards? Some of those look sick.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!