Thanks for the answers. I knew Sarkhan had to be for Wildfire. I've been considering bringing him back, although with the two Chandras and Koth, I'm not sure how much I need him.
Probably had to do with losing the big-mana artifact package, the card suffers when you're not running (storm) combo or heavily supporting artifact ramp.
Yup. RIP the artifact.dec package. Love the deck, but it takes up too much real estate in the smaller list.
Alesha will probably be coming back, B8R. I think I can finagle a way to get it back in.
Twister and Spiral lose value when the artifact/signet ramp package is scaled back. Other than UG ramp, no other decks would want Spiral now, and Twister is a little narrow when the only deck that might play it now is tempo. And the tempo deck's 3cc slot is already pretty full.
..........
I'm working on an update that will bring back a couple tools that I'm missing more than I expected. Largely the spells matters deck, some recruiter.dec support and perhaps some extra universal fixing. Losing a round of lands and the Signets at the same time pinched the mana fixing for the guilds pretty hard.
Really killed some darlings with this update. Mainly the artifact.dec and my beloved Trinket Mage... But it makes sense, gotta lose something with a lower cube size.
Rather than cutting a whole archetype (artifact.dec) did you consider instead cutting some pieces of all archetypes? I can see that not working; that could just water all of them down. Just wondering if you considered it.
Aside: I really appreciate your consistent updates set-to-set and switching things up every once in awhile. I basically play your list but with some minor tweaks for pet cards. I don't have a lot of time (or creativity) to do my own and would rather spend my little free-time actually playing with a well-tested and thought out cube instead of trying to manage one myself.
I would simply like to second what bmholle said: I also play a tweaked version of your cube, which my playgroup highly appreciates, and your input to the community is outstanding. Thanks for the dedication =)
I took this occasion to also cut down my cube. However I kept it at 450 since we sometimes get a 9-10th drafter. Looking forward to future updates!
@bmholle: I did, but there was really no way to keep the artifact.dec; it just consumes too many slots. And most of the archetypes did take a minor hit, so there wasn't any room to dilute them any more. And thanks for the aside!
@lordfafoin: Thanks for the kind words! Hope you continue to enjoy following the cube and the content.
Can I get your opinions on a few cards you chose to keep/swap? I'm kinda curious.
1. Harsh Mentor: Is this guy playing better than you expected?
2. Goblin Bombardment: I'm surprised Bombardment made it this far to 405! Tell me it's good in power cubes because it's one of my favorite peasant cube cards!
3. No Cultivate or Kodama's Reach?
4. Do you prefer blue gearhulk to Aetherling?
I'm sorry if this was already asked/explained wtwlf, but why go down to 405 over 450? The cube is so popular in my circle of friends that I tend to only run 8-10 players events. I get messages on facebook by people asking me when the next cube is! So kudos to you for all of your work once again ha.
Can I get your opinions on a few cards you chose to keep/swap? I'm kinda curious.
1. Harsh Mentor: Is this guy playing better than you expected?
2. Goblin Bombardment: I'm surprised Bombardment made it this far to 405! Tell me it's good in power cubes because it's one of my favorite peasant cube cards!
3. No Cultivate or Kodama's Reach?
4. Do you prefer blue gearhulk to Aetherling?
1. I want to see how Mentor plays at this size, because a lot of the cards that it's great against made the cut. With an increased fetchland concentration and things like Maze/Top/Etc showing up with more regularity, I wanted to see how well it would perform now.
2. Bombardment is a payoff card for both recursive creature decks and token decks, and surprisingly enough, it was immediately missed.
3. I like both of those cards, but I don't think they're necessary given the concentration of other ramp effects that survived the cut.
4. I don't know yet. But I know a few things about that heads-up comparison. Gearhulk is usually at least 1 mana cheaper, it's better on defense, and its presence was missed from the spells.dec archetype. So until I can find a more suitable replacement, it's in over the Aetherling.
What's your experience at 4 players in regards to glimpse vs sight draft?
We usually glimpse draft at 3 or 4 players, but sight drafting might be more strategic with 4 players since more than one pack comes back.
It's a bit more like a regular draft than Glimpse is, so players that are less familiar with Glimpse drafting prefer Signt drafting as a transition. The strategy is different, but not really overall better or worse than the other.
I'm sorry if this was already asked/explained wtwlf, but why go down to 405 over 450? The cube is so popular in my circle of friends that I tend to only run 8-10 players events. I get messages on facebook by people asking me when the next cube is! So kudos to you for all of your work once again ha.
Thanks. THere's a lot of reasons why, but the main justification for it is a few posts back on the last page.
..........
Also, a quick explanation regarding the Pool/Paradise re-inclusions:
At 540, my total number of reliable mana-fixing cards (mana fixing lands or mana-fixing artifacts with a CMC of 2 or less) looked like this –
50 + 13 + 8 = 71 / 540 = 13.15%
After the reduction to 405, that number fell, and it was observable in the drafts. I re-included Paradise and added Pool, and the revised number looks like this –
40 + 3 + 9 = 52 / 405 = 12.84%
So even with the most recent change bringing those two lands back in I have slightly less fixing than I did before. But it's closer.
I noticed you cut most of the green aggro support but kept Dryad Militant. Do you think it might be better considered a white card given green is no longer aggro? Could open up a slot for Wake or Qasali Pridemage.
With Nacatl, Warden, BBE, Plow Under and several other good cards for green aggro/tempo decks, the fact that Militant is green isn't a non-factor. I'm happier with it in the Selesnya section. Green won't be a baseline for the decks anymore, but Naya, Jund and Abzan aggro will still play well, as will Bant, Sultai and Temur tempo shells.
Plus, this allows me to run less gold, which is always a net positive.
Can't say I like Thing in the Ice more than Search for Azcanta as a spells matters card unless the intention is to not get Thing in the Ice stolen from other decks during the draft. Search for Azcanta is a much more valuable turn 2 play, has an easier payoff, and can still transform with ease as a late game topdeck.
@steve_man: I like Search for Azcanta more than Thing in the Ice in general, but for spells matters decks, I prefer Thing in the Ice. It's one of the few win conditions that the deck has at its disposal, and it works well with the clones and recruiters that the deck plays. Plus, it provides valuable early defense that the deck doesn't otherwise have. I immediately felt the loss of Thing in the Ice when it was removed, and as much as I love Search, it felt more expendable. Now, Search vs something like Visions or Cruise or something like that may ultimately change, but we'll see.
@majikian: Yes. But I wanted to build a baseline with these cycles and see how the drafts felt. Could certainly change things up in the future. Canopy isn't going anywhere other than into my on-deck binder for a bit. It'll undoubtedly be back.
Fair enough, wasn't sure how committed you were to running all of the two-color manlands as I know you've often run mismatched guild lands in the past.
If I were to move down to 4 2-color lands, I would keep all the manlands. Even the less great ones are soooooo good.
One of the points in favor of Wildwood over Canopy is that it's not routinely stolen by non-Selesnya drafters. Given how tight fixing has felt at 405 thus far, I'm hesitant to add a "hybrid" land at the cost of a dedicated mana fixer that drafters in that guild can rely on using. I classified Canopy as a hybrid card instead of a fixing land for a long time because of that phenomenon, and I just want to make sure the coast is clear with the current land arrangement before I shake it up at all.
Like a lot of your changes on the resizing. Your cube's always been a benchmark to me for solid cube design, interested to see your thoughts when resizing and figuring out the new environment. All? of your recent changes I'm a fan of. (reducing artifact/green agro @ 405, cutting draw 7's without the signet/Tolarian academy support, Gearhulk > Aetherling, TITI more important than Azcanta).
From my personal experiences, I think it's better to err on the side of too much fixing, rather than too little. There's some cool interactions that cross the 2 color barrier, and synergistic deck building will still trump 5c good stuff if the cube is designed well.
Curious to hear your future thoughts on earthshaker khenra and harsh mentor... Harsh mentor had poor initial testing here, but never really gave it a fair trial. Earthshaker has been solid, but feels replaceable? Still testing. Surprised hell-spark elemental got cut, but I guess that fits with your more creature oriented red section rather than burn heavy mono red style.
@Gelete: The sight draft details are under the Cube Notes in the post right under the OP.
@LucidVision: I'm glad you're in agreement about the changes, since you also run a small powerful cube, it's good to hear that you concur with the direction the cube went in. Khenra and Mentor are both solid, yet potentially replaceable. Khenra is just a solid aggro dude, but the eternalize trigger is beastly, and will often win games on the spot. It's nice to sneak a big, powerful, hastey finisher into an aggro shell for such a low opportunity cost. The initial Khenra is just the tax the deck pays for having access to a late-game mana sink without having to dedicate an actual slot to it. Mentor can be hard to judge. Often, his impact isn't seen, and the opponent can be experiencing pressure from Mentor you aren't even aware of. It can make his inclusion harder to justify. But as you say, since the total creature count is lower, and my curve requires a certain number of permanent 2-drops for Zoo-style aggro decks, the creatures that function more like burn are harder to shoehorn into the lists.
RIP 540 list. Am still playing this list hard. Picked up a foil cradle recently, and super good looking beta P9 proxies. Love cutting out some of the fat, hoping it will help out worse players in both drafting and deck building have things slightly more streamlined. So weird not having academy in there...
Ya, I love Academy and the rest of the artifact.dec. Being out for now doesn't mean it'll be out forever; only that the initial cuts to 405 were too difficult while leaving those cards in. The deck is powerful enough, and the cards are good enough, it's just that the artifact.dec uses up so much real estate that it was hard to justify at the smaller size. But every one of those support cards is in my on-deck binder, and is ready to come back if I can find a way to carve out the slots for 'em.
1) I don't think I will be able to find an The Abyss or Moat, would the Magus' be a acceptable replacement for them.
2) I have never played with the Mox's in a cube, my cube almost directly reflects your own. What is the benefit for adding them? What would I be losing if I exclude them?
The random card of the day with the made me realize your cube runs all 5 swords still. Our cubes are now the same size, Even though mine is not powered so I have a few more spots, Did you consider chopping any of them During the great Shrinkage?
I'll give the Abbot a second look.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Student has been great. Never thought of cutting it.
I still use red for multiple archetypes that play from the 'yard; Looting was not a consideration to be cut.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
RIP:
U Tezz
Tolarian
Welder
R Daretti
Metalworker
UB Tezz
Honorable mention RIP:
Geist
Alesha
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Alesha will probably be coming back, B8R. I think I can finagle a way to get it back in.
Twister and Spiral lose value when the artifact/signet ramp package is scaled back. Other than UG ramp, no other decks would want Spiral now, and Twister is a little narrow when the only deck that might play it now is tempo. And the tempo deck's 3cc slot is already pretty full.
..........
I'm working on an update that will bring back a couple tools that I'm missing more than I expected. Largely the spells matters deck, some recruiter.dec support and perhaps some extra universal fixing. Losing a round of lands and the Signets at the same time pinched the mana fixing for the guilds pretty hard.
Note: OP updated w/ first post-405 update...
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Rather than cutting a whole archetype (artifact.dec) did you consider instead cutting some pieces of all archetypes? I can see that not working; that could just water all of them down. Just wondering if you considered it.
Aside: I really appreciate your consistent updates set-to-set and switching things up every once in awhile. I basically play your list but with some minor tweaks for pet cards. I don't have a lot of time (or creativity) to do my own and would rather spend my little free-time actually playing with a well-tested and thought out cube instead of trying to manage one myself.
I took this occasion to also cut down my cube. However I kept it at 450 since we sometimes get a 9-10th drafter. Looking forward to future updates!
@lordfafoin: Thanks for the kind words! Hope you continue to enjoy following the cube and the content.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
1. Harsh Mentor: Is this guy playing better than you expected?
2. Goblin Bombardment: I'm surprised Bombardment made it this far to 405! Tell me it's good in power cubes because it's one of my favorite peasant cube cards!
3. No Cultivate or Kodama's Reach?
4. Do you prefer blue gearhulk to Aetherling?
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra
We usually glimpse draft at 3 or 4 players, but sight drafting might be more strategic with 4 players since more than one pack comes back.
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
1. I want to see how Mentor plays at this size, because a lot of the cards that it's great against made the cut. With an increased fetchland concentration and things like Maze/Top/Etc showing up with more regularity, I wanted to see how well it would perform now.
2. Bombardment is a payoff card for both recursive creature decks and token decks, and surprisingly enough, it was immediately missed.
3. I like both of those cards, but I don't think they're necessary given the concentration of other ramp effects that survived the cut.
4. I don't know yet. But I know a few things about that heads-up comparison. Gearhulk is usually at least 1 mana cheaper, it's better on defense, and its presence was missed from the spells.dec archetype. So until I can find a more suitable replacement, it's in over the Aetherling.
It's a bit more like a regular draft than Glimpse is, so players that are less familiar with Glimpse drafting prefer Signt drafting as a transition. The strategy is different, but not really overall better or worse than the other.
Thanks. THere's a lot of reasons why, but the main justification for it is a few posts back on the last page.
..........
Also, a quick explanation regarding the Pool/Paradise re-inclusions:
At 540, my total number of reliable mana-fixing cards (mana fixing lands or mana-fixing artifacts with a CMC of 2 or less) looked like this –
50 + 13 + 8 = 71 / 540 = 13.15%
After the reduction to 405, that number fell, and it was observable in the drafts. I re-included Paradise and added Pool, and the revised number looks like this –
40 + 3 + 9 = 52 / 405 = 12.84%
So even with the most recent change bringing those two lands back in I have slightly less fixing than I did before. But it's closer.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Plus, this allows me to run less gold, which is always a net positive.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
@majikian: Yes. But I wanted to build a baseline with these cycles and see how the drafts felt. Could certainly change things up in the future. Canopy isn't going anywhere other than into my on-deck binder for a bit. It'll undoubtedly be back.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
If I were to move down to 4 2-color lands, I would keep all the manlands. Even the less great ones are soooooo good.
Here's my cube! Give it a draft!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
From my personal experiences, I think it's better to err on the side of too much fixing, rather than too little. There's some cool interactions that cross the 2 color barrier, and synergistic deck building will still trump 5c good stuff if the cube is designed well.
Curious to hear your future thoughts on earthshaker khenra and harsh mentor... Harsh mentor had poor initial testing here, but never really gave it a fair trial. Earthshaker has been solid, but feels replaceable? Still testing. Surprised hell-spark elemental got cut, but I guess that fits with your more creature oriented red section rather than burn heavy mono red style.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
@LucidVision: I'm glad you're in agreement about the changes, since you also run a small powerful cube, it's good to hear that you concur with the direction the cube went in. Khenra and Mentor are both solid, yet potentially replaceable. Khenra is just a solid aggro dude, but the eternalize trigger is beastly, and will often win games on the spot. It's nice to sneak a big, powerful, hastey finisher into an aggro shell for such a low opportunity cost. The initial Khenra is just the tax the deck pays for having access to a late-game mana sink without having to dedicate an actual slot to it. Mentor can be hard to judge. Often, his impact isn't seen, and the opponent can be experiencing pressure from Mentor you aren't even aware of. It can make his inclusion harder to justify. But as you say, since the total creature count is lower, and my curve requires a certain number of permanent 2-drops for Zoo-style aggro decks, the creatures that function more like burn are harder to shoehorn into the lists.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
1) I don't think I will be able to find an The Abyss or Moat, would the Magus' be a acceptable replacement for them.
2) I have never played with the Mox's in a cube, my cube almost directly reflects your own. What is the benefit for adding them? What would I be losing if I exclude them?
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569