Wtwlf, what would you cut from your current red section to make room for a 1 or 2 cc creature?
It would depend on what the creature did. If it was burn strapped to a dude, I could maybe cut a burn spell for it. Otherwise, I don't really know. It's hard to say. Red is a hard color to make cuts from.
I like Slaughtermaster too. I just don't see much else to cut.
Guess I'm in a minority on the Fanatic, he was always underwhelming.
The only other option I like would be moving squee to colorless, which would make for an equally hard cut for most people (I'd cut SDT in a heartbeat but I have weird opinions).
Guess I'm in a minority on the Fanatic, he was always underwhelming.
The only other option I like would be moving squee to colorless, which would make for an equally hard cut for most people (I'd cut SDT in a heartbeat but I have weird opinions).
Yes, yes you do!!! No, I appreciate your input very much, and am glad to have it.
As far as the Fanatic goes, I have very recently come to respect the power of being to deal 1 damage to something at will. Fanatic is like Thalia in some respects where it isn't always clear what size wrench he's throwing into your opponent's plans, and in the mean time all you can see is this strange investment you hope you're getting something out of.
I considered moving Squee to colorless, and it may still be an option. It just seems weird to me, but maybe there is an easier cut there. Squee is definitely an anomaly in red though.
@ MagicFever: Mikaeus has seen zero play so far, hopefully I can get some testing in with him soon as I'd really like to see how he performs, but if he just never gets played, that in itself may be an indication of his worth in the cube. With the way our games have been going lately, I'm starting to get the feeling he will be a touch too slow.
Gorilla Shaman: I hear you all that Slaughtermaster is the best cut, I really just don't want to do it yet. I may include the Shaman without cutting something for now so that I can continue testing the Slaughtermaster and seed them both into pools so they get exposure and I can make a cut in short order. Thank you all for the input. It was helpful.
Last night's game report:
This is one of the most fun deck's I have played, and it was a total beast in 1v1 and in a 3 player free-for-all.
In the other decks: Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - Ultimate into wiping my board and taking my Garruk Relentless.
Moorland Haunt - Armageddon with Mox Diamond out, into same turn Plains. Next turn Haunt and churned out tokens. Unfortunately he was on his back leg at that point in the game at 3 life, but it allowed him to survive into 3 more land draws, an Elspeth, Knight Errant, and Cloudgoat Ranger. He ran out of cards due to his earlier Library shenanigans though and still lost.
A member of my playgroup has expressed some concern with the difficulty of interacting with graveyard strategies. What do you guys think? What, if anything, can I do to provide good cube-worthy options to interact with them more? Is this even something I should be concerned about?
Unless you heavily support reanimation combo, I think graveyard interactions can be handled with the available creature removal spells. With Animate Dead or Reanimate, they trade a card for a creature, you remove it, done. That leaves Recurring Nightmare, but the same strategy works here as well (to some extent). Including a specific hate card in your deck means you have a card that is often just bad, and when it s not then it is probably not even better than a removal spell that would be good in other situations, too.
I like Stonecloaker as an aggressive flier that can give decks repeat EtB value or 'save' a guy from removal, as well as randomly help against graveyard strategies.
Nezumi Graverobber is another card that can be a threat or value-engine without being bad against graveyard-based decks as well.
The key, I think is to find cards that work well against these strategies, while not being dedicated anti-graveyard cards, like Tormod's Crypt.
Stonecloaker is a pretty awesome card in general, pretty cool in a blink deck and can hate graveyards.
That said I kind of agree with Konfusius that Recurring Nightmare is the only thing that is a pain, and isn't interacted with with removal, and that's just a bomb first pick being a bomb first pick.
I think I'll add in Graverobber. Stonecloaker seems like a weird inclusion. I've never played it, but I've seen it around. I personally don't see a problem with gy strategies, but I think my group will appreciate me listening to them with those two adds and the card aren't totally useless the majority of the time like dedicated gy hate would be.
They've also asked for an unpowered environment again, so I'll be coming with a pretty big change soon.
Thanks for the input guys.
EDIT: I looked at Nihil Spellbomb, and I really just don't like it. It's a sideboard card and I'd rather not add that one in. Maybe Stonecloaker is better than I think though.
EDIT: I looked at Nihil Spellbomb, and I really just don't like it. It's a sideboard card and I'd rather not add that one in. Maybe Stonecloaker is better than I think though.
Stonecloaker does quite a few things, I currently prefer my other white three drops, but if there is more demand for cards that interact with the graveyard it is certainly worth a try.
Yeah, this surprised me. I think with the cube being cut down to 360, the power level is so high, and the cards are so game-changing when they land that anything that provides an advantage actually provides a huge advantage since the effects begin to compound. While I enjoy power, I think the change will be good, and when the games begin to get stale after a while, I can always add power back in to spice our games back up with some brokenness.
Stonecloaker does quite a few things, I currently prefer my other white three drops, but if there is more demand for cards that interact with the graveyard it is certainly worth a try.
I recently cut a four drop with the purpose of adding in another 3 drop. I included Mikaeus, but he has yet to shine, which makes me think he isn't going to. That seems like a reasonable swap.
Moorland Haunt -> Talisman of Progress - I feel there is a need for another mana rock since I'm cutting all the moxen. Moorland Haunt was a solid performer, I just find the Talisman necessary.
Per the previous conversation here and some conversation with my playgroup this update is an attempt to provide a litte more balanced environment for our game play. I'm told the novelty of powerful card blowouts has worn off a bit, and they'd like to get back to the tension of a balanced game. I added Stonecloaker as a means to battle graveyard.dec. I've never played the card, so I am willing to give it a shot. We've noticed a general lack of adequate artifact/enchantment removal as well in our pools, so Seal is coming back in. The rest of the inclusions are pretty solid in my opinion and are also allowing us to play with some cards that have never been in the cube previously. I'm excited to see how this update plays out.
The changes look good - its a big step depowering the cube, but I think you created a balanced environment post-changes. The talisman has been a little underwhelming - I would like Mana Crypt or even Darksteel Ingot over the Talisman most of the time
Rolling Earthquake has always seemed unfair in my opinion (even though it's hardly that overpowered), because you're playing it in an environment with no horsemanship. It just wasn't designed to mix with normal cards. To me is similar to playing Cold Snap in a cube with snow basics, although not as grievous.
The changes look good - its a big step depowering the cube, but I think you created a balanced environment post-changes. The talisman has been a little underwhelming - I would like Mana Crypt or even Darksteel Ingot over the Talisman most of the time
Mana Crypt plays in a different league than Talismans or Signets, it is closer to a Mox actually in power level. Darksteel Ignot is slower than a Talisman or a Signet and that makes a really big difference.
Having enough mana rocks enables a lot some archetypes that would otherwise be unplayable. Non-green based ramp decks, three or four colour control, a good non UG- Upheaval deck to name just a few.
I added Stonecloaker as a means to battle graveyard.dec. I've never played the card, so I am willing to give it a shot.
I ran it for a while and ended up cutting it, even at 540. Other cards I tried (Scrabbling Claws and the like) got cut as well.
I don't think you need graveyard-specific cards to battle reanimator. Removal or Bounce serve to counteract it, and Stonecloaker would probably just sit in the SB until they get sided in against reanimator.
I'd cut it and add another solid card. You have prime real estate at 360.
Rolling Earthquake has always seemed unfair in my opinion (even though it's hardly that overpowered), because you're playing it in an environment with no horsemanship. It just wasn't designed to mix with normal cards. To me is similar to playing Cold Snap in a cube with snow basics, although not as grievous.
I've run it in my 540 unpowered since the beginning, and it's never been OP. It may seem like it because you're tempted to create some BCS in your head where it takes out a Birds of Paradise, Oona's Prowler, and couple bears all at once... but in practice, it usually works like a regular Earthquake.
Mana Crypt plays in a different league than Talismans or Signets, it is closer to a Mox actually in power level. Darksteel Ignot is slower than a Talisman or a Signet and that makes a really big difference.
Having enough mana rocks enables a lot some archetypes that would otherwise be unplayable. Non-green based ramp decks, three or four colour control, a good non UG- Upheaval deck to name just a few.
I realize this - Mana Crypt is certainly a strong card for an unpowered cube (we love it in mine), and it still enables multiple archetypes. As for Darksteel Ingot it really depends what you're looking for - obviously its much worse than Coalition Relic but it still serves a role in getting to 6 mana earlier in the game, and provides a greater degree of fixing than a Talisman at reduced speed. Again, I think all three of these rocks have merit, and it depends which element you want to support more in the cube.
All the inclusions seem reasonable, my question is are you going to consider cutting the next line of superpowered cards: Mana Drain, Mind Twist, Library of Alexandria, and Umezawa's Jitte?
All the inclusions seem reasonable, my question is are you going to consider cutting the next line of superpowered cards: Mana Drain, Mind Twist, Library of Alexandria, and Umezawa's Jitte?
All of those cards (and several more) are more backbreaking and game warping than Moxen and fast mana are. I can't see cutting one group and leaving the other in.
@Juju: I don't think that Rolling Earthquake is so unfair in comparison to the other super powerful cards in the cube, like the ones Grapefruit and wtwlf are talking about. Yeah, it's totally sidestepping the spirit of the card, but I'm okay with that. I've come to believe that the cube is a balancing act between powerful effects and powerful anti-effects. I personally don't feel that the way to balance these two forces is to cut the broken effects until the balanced anti-effects can keep up, but rather to find the most broken anti-effects and include them as well. (I realize this most recent update doesn't reflect that philosophy. I will address that.)
@duckpants: I agree that Stonecloaker is probably not the greatest inclusion, and that gy hate probably isn't even necessary, but I am also willing to give something a shot that I have never tried before. I'm all for empirical experience and I want the results to show for themselves, not only to me, but to my playgroup who don't spent any time at all learning cube management and theory. They're versed magic players none-the-less, and I don't want to marginalize their opinions. I will be keeping a very close eye on it.
@Grapefruit & wtwlf: That sort of slippery slope is what I am hoping to avoid. I personally am not in favor of this change. I mentioned my philosophy at the beginning of this post and I will lobby for that philosophy with my playgroup as much as possible. I think that no matter where you go with a cube, cutting the powerful cards will only lead to another set of top tier cards that need to be cut. I cut those, and then planeswalkers and swords take over. I cut those and then mass LD takes over. I cut those and then all of blue takes over. Etc., etc., etc., . . . At the same time, I've decided I don't want to be a cube dictator. I want my playgroup to take an active part in the cube so that it becomes our cube, and they've asked to try something else. I can be flexible. At the end of the day, if they're happy and I get to play magic, then I'm happy. I just hope we don't slide down this slope too far before they see my point.
And hopefully I'll be adding power back in soon . . .
I was only mentioning those specific cards (and a few others could have been added *coughreccuringnightmare*) because they are all cards I consider more powerful then the power 9. Maybe they don't cause as bad of feelings as turn 1 Mox or Lotus, but they have a stronger effect on the game in my experience.
I don't like the slippery slope argument but I can see where it's coming from, and since it was a group requested swap it makes sense.
I think cutting fast mana is very reasonable. You cast broken spells in cube all the time, only fast mana means you do it even earlier. Cards like Mind Twist, Balance and Tinker are still very very good without the fast mana, but I think they get a lot less scary. So yea, I can totally see cutting one group and not the other.
Umezawa's Jitte and Recurring Nightmare are very good obviously, but you need creatures for them to work, so you can actually keep them in check with removal. With fast mana, on the other hand, the opponent gains a huge tempo advantage before you even have the chance to play an artifact destruction spell.
I think cutting fast mana is very reasonable. You cast broken spells in cube all the time, only fast mana means you do it even earlier. Cards like Mind Twist, Balance and Tinker are still very very good without the fast mana, but I think they get a lot less scary. So yea, I can totally see cutting one group and not the other.
Umezawa's Jitte and Recurring Nightmare are very good obviously, but you need creatures for them to work, so you can actually keep them in check with removal. With fast mana, on the other hand, the opponent gains a huge tempo advantage before you even have the chance to play an artifact destruction spell.
That was my assessment of the moxen and fast manafacts as well.
When I was talking about the slippery slope, I wasn't talking about cutting these cards in general, but rather the reasoning behind cutting the cards. Reasoning like you just provided is sound judgment based on real evaluation of the environment and is the same conclusion I've come to which is why I'm okay with my playgroup's desire for the change. The reasoning that, well I cut these powerful cards, I should cut these other powerful cards too because they're just as, or nearly as, broken, is not sound judgment in my opinion and puts you on a slippery slope of culling the most powerful cards until you've found a place where nothing is broken and all is balanced. Now there is nothing wrong with building a cube that way if that is your intent, but that wasn't the intent behind these changes. The intent was to lessen the oppression specific to these cards and not oppression in general.
It would depend on what the creature did. If it was burn strapped to a dude, I could maybe cut a burn spell for it. Otherwise, I don't really know. It's hard to say. Red is a hard color to make cuts from.
I like Slaughtermaster too. I just don't see much else to cut.
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The only other option I like would be moving squee to colorless, which would make for an equally hard cut for most people (I'd cut SDT in a heartbeat but I have weird opinions).
Yes, yes you do!!! No, I appreciate your input very much, and am glad to have it.
As far as the Fanatic goes, I have very recently come to respect the power of being to deal 1 damage to something at will. Fanatic is like Thalia in some respects where it isn't always clear what size wrench he's throwing into your opponent's plans, and in the mean time all you can see is this strange investment you hope you're getting something out of.
I considered moving Squee to colorless, and it may still be an option. It just seems weird to me, but maybe there is an easier cut there. Squee is definitely an anomaly in red though.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Cheers,
rant
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Gorilla Shaman: I hear you all that Slaughtermaster is the best cut, I really just don't want to do it yet. I may include the Shaman without cutting something for now so that I can continue testing the Slaughtermaster and seed them both into pools so they get exposure and I can make a cut in short order. Thank you all for the input. It was helpful.
Last night's game report:
Last night's not obvious all stars:
Bramblecrush - Killed 2 planeswalkers, a Library of Alexandria, and a Smokestack throughout the night.
Crystal Shard + Acidic Slime - Played Slime three turns in a row for Myr Battlesphere, Library of Alexandria, and Creeping Tar Pit.
In the other decks:
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - Ultimate into wiping my board and taking my Garruk Relentless.
Moorland Haunt - Armageddon with Mox Diamond out, into same turn Plains. Next turn Haunt and churned out tokens. Unfortunately he was on his back leg at that point in the game at 3 life, but it allowed him to survive into 3 more land draws, an Elspeth, Knight Errant, and Cloudgoat Ranger. He ran out of cards due to his earlier Library shenanigans though and still lost.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Nezumi Graverobber is another card that can be a threat or value-engine without being bad against graveyard-based decks as well.
The key, I think is to find cards that work well against these strategies, while not being dedicated anti-graveyard cards, like Tormod's Crypt.
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Stonecloaker is a pretty awesome card in general, pretty cool in a blink deck and can hate graveyards.
That said I kind of agree with Konfusius that Recurring Nightmare is the only thing that is a pain, and isn't interacted with with removal, and that's just a bomb first pick being a bomb first pick.
They've also asked for an unpowered environment again, so I'll be coming with a pretty big change soon.
Thanks for the input guys.
EDIT: I looked at Nihil Spellbomb, and I really just don't like it. It's a sideboard card and I'd rather not add that one in. Maybe Stonecloaker is better than I think though.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Stonecloaker does quite a few things, I currently prefer my other white three drops, but if there is more demand for cards that interact with the graveyard it is certainly worth a try.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Yeah, this surprised me. I think with the cube being cut down to 360, the power level is so high, and the cards are so game-changing when they land that anything that provides an advantage actually provides a huge advantage since the effects begin to compound. While I enjoy power, I think the change will be good, and when the games begin to get stale after a while, I can always add power back in to spice our games back up with some brokenness.
I recently cut a four drop with the purpose of adding in another 3 drop. I included Mikaeus, but he has yet to shine, which makes me think he isn't going to. That seems like a reasonable swap.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Mox Pearl -> Seal of Cleansing
Mikaeus, the Lunarch -> Stonecloaker
Mox Sapphire -> Faerie Conclave
Ancestral Recall -> Preordain
Time Walk -> Willbender
Time Twister isn't so oppressive and is actually a necessary card for counterburn strategies, so that power card stays.
Mox Jet -> Nezumi Graverobber
Mox Ruby -> Rolling Earthquake
Without the Moxen I think Gorilla Shaman loses a lot of value, so that solves that previous problem for me.
Mox Emerald -> Wild Nacatl
Moorland Haunt -> Talisman of Progress - I feel there is a need for another mana rock since I'm cutting all the moxen. Moorland Haunt was a solid performer, I just find the Talisman necessary.
Per the previous conversation here and some conversation with my playgroup this update is an attempt to provide a litte more balanced environment for our game play. I'm told the novelty of powerful card blowouts has worn off a bit, and they'd like to get back to the tension of a balanced game. I added Stonecloaker as a means to battle graveyard.dec. I've never played the card, so I am willing to give it a shot. We've noticed a general lack of adequate artifact/enchantment removal as well in our pools, so Seal is coming back in. The rest of the inclusions are pretty solid in my opinion and are also allowing us to play with some cards that have never been in the cube previously. I'm excited to see how this update plays out.
Please, any feedback is welcome.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
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Mana Crypt plays in a different league than Talismans or Signets, it is closer to a Mox actually in power level. Darksteel Ignot is slower than a Talisman or a Signet and that makes a really big difference.
Having enough mana rocks enables a lot some archetypes that would otherwise be unplayable. Non-green based ramp decks, three or four colour control, a good non UG- Upheaval deck to name just a few.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I ran it for a while and ended up cutting it, even at 540. Other cards I tried (Scrabbling Claws and the like) got cut as well.
I don't think you need graveyard-specific cards to battle reanimator. Removal or Bounce serve to counteract it, and Stonecloaker would probably just sit in the SB until they get sided in against reanimator.
I'd cut it and add another solid card. You have prime real estate at 360.
I've run it in my 540 unpowered since the beginning, and it's never been OP. It may seem like it because you're tempted to create some BCS in your head where it takes out a Birds of Paradise, Oona's Prowler, and couple bears all at once... but in practice, it usually works like a regular Earthquake.
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I realize this - Mana Crypt is certainly a strong card for an unpowered cube (we love it in mine), and it still enables multiple archetypes. As for Darksteel Ingot it really depends what you're looking for - obviously its much worse than Coalition Relic but it still serves a role in getting to 6 mana earlier in the game, and provides a greater degree of fixing than a Talisman at reduced speed. Again, I think all three of these rocks have merit, and it depends which element you want to support more in the cube.
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WUBSen TripletsWUB
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All of those cards (and several more) are more backbreaking and game warping than Moxen and fast mana are. I can't see cutting one group and leaving the other in.
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@duckpants: I agree that Stonecloaker is probably not the greatest inclusion, and that gy hate probably isn't even necessary, but I am also willing to give something a shot that I have never tried before. I'm all for empirical experience and I want the results to show for themselves, not only to me, but to my playgroup who don't spent any time at all learning cube management and theory. They're versed magic players none-the-less, and I don't want to marginalize their opinions. I will be keeping a very close eye on it.
@Grapefruit & wtwlf: That sort of slippery slope is what I am hoping to avoid. I personally am not in favor of this change. I mentioned my philosophy at the beginning of this post and I will lobby for that philosophy with my playgroup as much as possible. I think that no matter where you go with a cube, cutting the powerful cards will only lead to another set of top tier cards that need to be cut. I cut those, and then planeswalkers and swords take over. I cut those and then mass LD takes over. I cut those and then all of blue takes over. Etc., etc., etc., . . . At the same time, I've decided I don't want to be a cube dictator. I want my playgroup to take an active part in the cube so that it becomes our cube, and they've asked to try something else. I can be flexible. At the end of the day, if they're happy and I get to play magic, then I'm happy. I just hope we don't slide down this slope too far before they see my point.
And hopefully I'll be adding power back in soon . . .
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I don't like the slippery slope argument but I can see where it's coming from, and since it was a group requested swap it makes sense.
Library of Alexandria -> Inkmoth Nexus
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Umezawa's Jitte and Recurring Nightmare are very good obviously, but you need creatures for them to work, so you can actually keep them in check with removal. With fast mana, on the other hand, the opponent gains a huge tempo advantage before you even have the chance to play an artifact destruction spell.
Sol Ring, Moxen, Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mana Drain as fast mana are a good place to start with a banned list. Time Walk, Ancestral Recall and Library of Alexandria offer powerful effects for way too cheap a cost. I think these cards are broken on a very different level than all the other cards in the cube, and banning them is not a slippery slope at all.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
QFT ^
That was my assessment of the moxen and fast manafacts as well.
When I was talking about the slippery slope, I wasn't talking about cutting these cards in general, but rather the reasoning behind cutting the cards. Reasoning like you just provided is sound judgment based on real evaluation of the environment and is the same conclusion I've come to which is why I'm okay with my playgroup's desire for the change. The reasoning that, well I cut these powerful cards, I should cut these other powerful cards too because they're just as, or nearly as, broken, is not sound judgment in my opinion and puts you on a slippery slope of culling the most powerful cards until you've found a place where nothing is broken and all is balanced. Now there is nothing wrong with building a cube that way if that is your intent, but that wasn't the intent behind these changes. The intent was to lessen the oppression specific to these cards and not oppression in general.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor