I want to at least test Witch Hunt before completely dismissing it. I don't think I'll miss either of those red cards. I will say, however, that we cubed on Wednesday after making these changes and Witch Hunt went 15th. That's only one draft so it doesn't say much, but the other CMDR cards that came up all saw play.
The only cut on that list that I'm iffy about is Aether Adept. I'm actually more included to cut Gilded Drake after seeing the responses in the This or That thread. That's definitely a discussion we'll have to have.
As for the rest of the cards that showed up...
Unexpectedly Absent once put a dude on top of my library and once put a Crystal Shard two cards down. All in all, I'd say it was a solid white removal spell.
True-Name Nemesis was, as expected, a complete house. To add insult to injury that person also had Jitte. It was disgusting to watch.
Toxic Deluge was a three mana ***. Although, I did screw up and tutor for it to kill a Falkenrath Aristocrat once instead of getting my Recurring Nightmare to bring back a Thragtusk. But that's neither here nor there. The moral of that story is that Deluge was just as good as anticipated.
Curse of Predation only saw play once and it died after one attack step, so it didn't have a chance to do much. I still have high hopes for it, though.
Unfortunately, the other cards didn't show up, but hopefully next week's draft will remedy that.
Not sure how much you support Reanimator (your list looks light on support). I only bring that up because losing Bogardan Hellkite is criminal IMO if you support it. And that card is wonderful in a sneak attack/blink deck too BTW.
Man I'd be sad to not have this stuff in my cube. My inner Jonny needs constant nurturing.
We cut Bogardan Hellkite and Parallax Wave because neither card ever saw play. Hellkite would get picked and played occasionally, but it saw a lot of sideboard time simply because those that drafted it also drafted other fatty options. And Parallax Wave was just constantly going 15th. No matter how good a card is, if it's not getting played, it shouldn't be in the cube.
As far as reanimator and blink support, I support both decks, but I don't include an over abundance of support for either. Both decks come together fairly often and I'm ok with that. We had Hellkite in once and cut it for not seeing play. Then we added in more ramp to green and moved that color away from aggressive strategies so we added him back for a second go. He performed about the same.
I've included Temple of Mystery over Simic Growth Chamber and so far the one off scry hasn't been all that relevant. Honestly I could probably go either way with those lands depending on how well your group likes the bounce lands. I'm actually thinking of moving away from those lands entirely and going with the Scars or M10 duals in those slots.
How are the new Commander card changes working out? Are you keeping them all in, or have you made any other changes?
I recently copied your cube after dismantling my old version and I have to say that it's been a blast! My playgroup agrees this is the best version they've played, so thank you for coming up with (and sharing) your list!
How are the new Commander card changes working out? Are you keeping them all in, or have you made any other changes?
I recently copied your cube after dismantling my old version and I have to say that it's been a blast! My playgroup agrees this is the best version they've played, so thank you for coming up with (and sharing) your list!
So far most of the new Commander cards have been solid, although we don't get to cube enough to really get a good look at them. I will say that Witch Hunt has seen exactly zero play in the ~ 4-5 drafts that we've seen it come up so far.
That's really flattering that you decided to copy my cube. Thanks for the kind words. I'm really glad you and your group are enjoying it! Happy cubing!
I looked at a bunch of the bigger powered cubes on here and kept coming back to this one. I've swapped out some cards to reinforce some of the archetypes and to give it a bit of my own distinct flavour, but we've been playing it for a couple months now and my group is loving it!
I will admit there were some cards that I had to google to see why they were good, but I think building this cube has really helped me better evaluate cards and be a better drafter.
I know Born of the Gods is right around the corner and I'll need to make a few changes with that set, but I just couldn't take it anymore. I had the itch and I felt the need to change things up a bit.
Some of these changes are simply giving cards that we haven't seen for a while a second chance. In some cases it's been over two years since we had that card in. This is because the cube is a very different place now and I want to give them another chance to shine. A couple of additions are going in to help add a bit of density to certain archetypes that don't always come together properly when Winston drafting or drafting with a small group. The rest is either stuff that I've missed, the added card didn't work out, or I just want to give that card a shot. So without further adieu, here's some proposed changes.
Thanks, man. I'm really excited about a lot of these changes. The card I'm the most skeptical about is Firestorm. It didn't see a lot of play when it was in before, but that was two years ago. The cube is different now and I feel like my players, including myself, view drafting and deck building at least a little differently now. I like the card, so I'm hoping that makes a difference.
Play it in Jund reanimator with your new toys (Overlord and Sneak Attack) for early discard shenanigans. Or play it in Pox/Stax aggro to dump recursive/GY value cards for multiple free lightning bolts. It's a cool card, and it has a high ceiling and a big impact for a single red mana. Play it right before a draw-7 spell for funsies in counterburn decks, and you may just keep it around :sick:.
I am a huge fan of Ember Swallower but I don't own Burning to have 2 wildfire effects so I guess it would be a fair enough swap.
Proxies for the win as we do not own one of these either.
I am not a fan of 2 wildfires nor firestorm but I am ok with giving them a chance again as long as I get to keep gilded drake,
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I think I like all of that except for the loss of Karmic Guide. Gilded Drake was never good for me, but I keep thinking about giving it another chance. Please let us know how it does for you.
Thanks for the kind words, guys. Karmic Guide is a card that was in and then out and then back in again. This is probably not the last we've seen of her. The thing about the card, though, is that I found that it really only goes into a few decks and those decks just didn't come together often enough. It goes into a WB midrange reanimation theme deck. It goes into a combo deck with 'lark and maybe even Kiki for value. And then there's the run of the mill WX midrange build that just plays the Guide for some value, which was the more common deck. And really in those lists, our players preferred other 5-drops over it.
Sorry for the late reply, but here are some of the changes I've made so far. Feel free to leave feedback, I'm always looking to improve my card evaluation. This is an OUT -> IN format.
Imperial Seal -> Entomb (A little explanation for the P3K cards. I'm working on completing my cube without any proxies and I can't justify spending stupid amounts on these cards since other much cheaper cards do the same thing, so I'm removing them all and replacing them)
Gore-House Chainwalker -> Guttersnipe
Juggernaut -> Volatile Rig
Triskelion -> Karn, Silver Golem (I use him to turn artifacts into creatures to make them easier to kill. Also, destroys moxes really efficiently)
Mortarpod -> Voltaic Key
Sewer Nemesis -> Ophiomancer
Consuming Vapors -> Greed
Sea Gate Oracle -> True Name Nemesis
Rolling Earthquake -> Molten Disaster (rumors of a rolling earthquake reprint could put this one back in)
Faerie Conclave -> Faerie Imposter (I like the value, want to boost ETB effects more as well)
Imperial Recruiter -> Jaya Ballard, Taskmage (love the value)
Cursed Scroll -> The Rack
Contagion -> Toxic Deluge
Rishadan Port -> Lotus Vale (did this for more Crucible/Life from the Loam support, although I might switch back)
Paladin en-Vec -> Galepowder Mage (trying to boost the flicker archetype)
Keldon Vandals -> Goblin Ruinblaster (want more LD)
Icatian Javelineers -> Loyal Sentry (not sure about this one)
Krosan Tusker -> Viridian Emissary
Chimeric Idol -> Infiltration Lens (love the 2 card draw value)
Treetop Village -> Scythe Tiger (quicker aggro, also more support for Crucible, etc.)
Time Spiral -> Inkwell Leviathan (time spiral was underwhelming to my group, no one wanted to use it)
Moat -> Unexpectedly Absent (Moat also saw no play and given the price tag, not worth it for me)
Blood Scrivener -> Bloodgift Demon (we find much more draw from this guy)
Kargan Dragonlord -> Goblin Welder
Wheel of Fortune -> Incendiary Command (i like the variety)
Birthing Pod -> Search for Tomorrow
Nantuko Vigilante -> Harrow
Shelldock Isle -> Serum Visions
Fire Imp -> Galvanic Blast
Vinelasher Kudzu -> Joiner Adept
Master of the Wild Hunt -> Changeling Titan (good value, more ETB support)
Dismember -> Victimize
Broodmate Dragon -> Kresh the Bloodbraided (haven't drafted him yet, still not sure)
Bottle Gnomes -> Aether Vial
Oblivion Stone -> Conjurer's Closet (flicker!)
Urza's Factory -> Gruul War Plow (i know, it's not G/R...might just be a filler until i find something better)
Duskmantle Seer -> Oona, Queen of the Fae (not a fan of this guy, Bob is hard enough to draft as it is)
Deep Analysis -> Ideas Unbound
Carrion Feeder -> Hex Parasite (planeswalker destroyer, counter shenanigans)
I also want to put Vexing Sphinx in but haven't figured out what to take out to replace him. I want to push the reanimator archetype some more and think this guy will be good for that (and looting, given the card draw).
As far as Born of the Gods cards...I'm putting Brimaz in for sure, as well as Kiora. Not sure what else yet, need to do some more research. What BNG cards are you thinking of putting in?
Yeah, Greed isn't the greatest, it will probably be taken out.
I feel the man lands are too slow and have not been very effective. Coming into play tapped is a pretty big disadvantage, so I swapped them out for creatures that are more aggressive.
Nobody in my playgroup would play Wheel of Fortune due to the card advantage it gives your opponents. So I went with Incendiary Command because it quasi does the same thing, while giving you more options.
I agree that Changeling Titan isn't the strongest, but so far it's been a pretty decent include. I've thrown it on top of small ETB creatures and have had some good success with it. I don't know what to exchange for it, maybe that new Oracle of Mul Daya repeat from the new set...
Seeing all of these changes makes me wonder what it was about my list that made you think it was the right list for your group. Most of the changes you've made for your list aren't changes that would appeal to my group at all. I'll try to touch on each change (hopefully) quickly.
Cutting the P3K cards due to price is completely fair. I'll be honest and tell you that there's no way in hell I'm ever paying 600+ for a worse version of Vampiric Tutor. That card will forever be a proxy in my list (even if it ends up being an altered Cruel Tutor).
I've heard good things about Guttersnipe from other folks, so I'd be interested in hearing what you've thought about this guy.
Volatile Rig for Juggernaut is probably fine. I do like Juggalug more, but I've not been overly impressed with him lately.
I like Triskelion, but Karn, Silver Golem is certainly interesting. I've never ran him because I've never pushed the artifact deck. It just wasn't a deck my group was all that interested in.
I don't care for Voltaic Key because it just doesn't do enough. It's pretty good with a big mana rock and it's decent to give your artifact guys pseudo vigilance, but I think overall it's just a big do nothing.
Sewer Nemesis for Ophiomancer is probably fine. I like the snake charmer and SN is near the bottom of the good four drops list. He can certainly be Fatty McFatterson at times, though. He's a deal for four mana.
Greed is a really bad card. Consuming Vapors is awesome. Not much more I can say about that swap.
Faerie Conclave is fantastic. The man lands aren't there to be fast. Conclave is great in UX tempo decks that like to get a little aggressive and UX control decks as incremental damage. Faerie Imposter seems slow and also like a card without a true home. It might go into a UX tempo deck, but the blue in those decks tends to come in the form of counters, bounce, and draw. I can't approve of this swap at all.
Cursed Scroll is going to be really good in all of your aggressive decks. It's colorless removal, incremental damage, and it poses the threat of inevitability. The Rack will be pretty good every now and then. The rest of the time it will be sideboard fodder.
I can understand wanting more support for cards like Crucible of Worlds and Life From the Loam, but I don't think Lotus Vale is where that support should come from. Keep in mind that this is cube and land destruction cards do exist. If I played Lotus Vale and my opponent found a way to kill it next turn (Wasteland, Strip Mine, Avalanche Riders, Vindicate, Armageddon, etc), I might flip the table and quit Magic forever.
*Side note* Lotus Vale was the rare in the first pack of Magic cards I ever opened. The second rare? Volrath's Stronghold. I traded them both to a friend who already played for my very first deck. A terrible GW stompy deck with Trained Armadon and Iron Tusk Elephant. Good times.
I think Paladin en-Vec is expendable, but I also think Galepowder Mage goes into an already very crowded mana cost. I like him ok, I just don't think he's good enough to fit there. I'd rather see Paladin cut for something more similar like Brimaz, King of Oreskos. I also think the blink archetype is already fairly heavily supported without the addition of Galepowder Mage.
Krosan Tusker for Viridian Emissary is fine as well. I like the Emissary in my peasant cube, so I could see him being decent here as well. Tusker is good, but not really needed.
We actually ran Infiltration Lens for a bit and found it to be quite lackluster. I wanted it to be a slightly worse Skullclamp, but ended up being quite a bit worse. Chimeric Idol is a card that I like any of my black control decks. I may be a little biased toward him because I played him quite a bit in extended and legacy Pox lists back in the day. Also he's the only Prophecy card good enough to make the cut. That has to mean something, right?!
Treetop Village shouldn't be considered an aggro card. It should be considered an all around really good card. It's damn near the best man land ever printed. It's fantastic in any deck playing green. It goes into aggro decks, midrange, and even rampy control lists just the same. I think it's a 360 staple and I wouldn't want to cube without it.
I understand losing Time Spiral. We cut Timetwister because it was always so hard to make the effect asymmetrical. It seemed to always backfire. I'm happy with Inkwell Leviathan so far.
Not running Moat is fair if you don't wish to run proxies and don't want to drop that kind of money on a Magic card. I like using this slot for Unexpectedly Absent.
In a vacuum I like Bloodgift Demon a little more than I like Blood Scrivener. Giving Scrivener the Demon's ability would be full of win. Alas, though, I don't think they are fighting for the same slots so I wouldn't want to cut a two drop in favor of a five drop. If I were to cut Scrivener from my list right now, I'd probably use that slot to test out Blood Artist.
I just realized this is a ******* long list of changes and quite the endeavor I've taken on. But let's keep going...
I never liked Goblin Welder, but again that's because my group was never a fan of the artifact deck. I think if you want to run cards like this guy and Karn, then you should also think about including both Tezzeret the Seeker and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. [c]Kargan Dragonlord[c] is probably expendable if you're looking to support that deck. He's been really good for us in the mono red and heavy red aggro decks, though.
Wheel of Fortune is a card that my group has trouble with as well. I probably won't cut this one, though, based on pure principal. I really like it and I play it in any of my red aggro decks. I do understand where you're coming from on your reasoning behind cutting it, though. Sometimes your group wins out. I don't like Incendiary Command, though. I'd probably use this slot to try out something different like Goblin Bombardment or I'd just bring in something boring and familiar like Brimstone Volley.
Nantuko Vigilante is kind of a boring card, but it's good and having a way to deal with problematic artifacts and enchantment is necessary. And again, I don't think you need the extra ramp from Harrow. I will say that I like Search for Tomorrow more than Harrow, so if you decide to keep only one, I'd go with Search.
Shelldock Isle is a card that others around the internet seem to find to be bonkers. I've only found it to be pretty solid. It's ok, but I wouldn't fault anyone for cutting it. Serum Visions is also ok, so this a fine swap IMO. I think I like Shelldock more, but Serum Visions isn't bad. I might actually try Ancestral Vision in this slot if you want to drop Shelldock. We played it a while back and weren't too impressed with it, but it's a card I wouldn't mind giving another shot.
How often do you think you'll have enough artifacts to trigger metalcraft on Galvanic Blast? My initial guess would be almost never. I'd rather have the two damage on a creature than I can abuse with bounce and blink than just a Shock.
I do like Vinelasher Kudzu more than Joiner Adept, but I can see the merits of running Adept. It's a two mana 2/1 so it fits into aggressive builds the same way that Kudzu does and it helps to fix your mana. I can see this one being personal preference. I do like Kudzu quite a bit, though. He can get out of control really quick, especially if you play him on turn two with a mana dork before you play your second land. He's just a really solid aggro dork.
Changeling Titan is basically terrible. Not only is he mayor of Chumpsville where he just gets blocked all day long for no real value, but I never liked the Champion ability. I'd rather not Oblivion Ring my own dude just to get another dude that provides very little value. Master of the Wild Hunt however, is completely full of value. He's a solid body, he cranks out threats, and he's removal in a color that doesn't normally get removal. I don't understand this swap at all. If you must cut Master, then at least throw in something like Phantom Centaur which is still leagues above Changeling Titan.
What do you not like about Dismember? It kills a good 90% or more of the cube's creature base. (That stat is made up. It's actually probably more than that.) It can be ran by any color in any deck. It's a very splashable spell. I can understand wanting more graveyard and reanimation support, but I don't think Dismember is the card that gets cut for it and I don't think Victimize is the card to provide that support. Makeshift Mannequin is the only card on my radar for including to boost reanimation support right now and even that card is borderline.
Kresh the Bloodbraided is another resident of Chumpsville. I'd highly recommend bringing in Hellkite Overlord in this spot instead. It gives you another reanimation target, ramp target, and Natural Order target. If you don't like Hellkite, then Broodmate Dragon is a much better Jund card than Kresh. Two 4/4 flyers for six mana is a much better deal than big guy that's just going to be blocked for days. Creatures like Kresh need trample or evasion before they start to be good enough for cube standards. Not only is he boring, but he's three colors. He's just not worth the investment at all.
Oh no! You cut Bottle Gnomes! I'd admit that it's not the most exciting card, but it fits great into most control shells. Aether Vial was always a card that looked great on paper based on it's stellar performance in other formats, but always seemed to disappoint in cube. Playing it on turn one should be the nut high, but I almost always just wished it was another one mana 2/1.
Conjurer's Closet needs to cost something like two or three mana before it makes the cut, IMO. I do like the effect, but it's not worth five mana an an artifact that doesn't do anything at all if I don't have something in play that I want to blink. At least with Venser, Shaper Savant I'm ticking up my planeswalker toward a pretty sick utlimate. I don't like this card at all, really. [c]Oblivion Stone[c] has been a very good control card. It's not the best thing ever, but it's definitely better than a five mana card that may or may not do something useful.
I'm not running Urza's Factory, so I assume you cut Mishra's Factory for Gruul War Plow. Again, I just don't understand these changes at all. Mishra's Factory is up there with Treetop Village for the best man land ever trophy. I want the War Plow's ability (1RG: ~this~ becomes a 4/4 trampler) on a RG land that hits play tapped. That's what would make it playable.
I think think Dark Confidant is hard to draft at all. Black aggro is my personal favorite aggro and it's pretty well supported here. One of my favorite decks to draft is UB aggro tempo with the black one mana two power guys, Bob, Man-o'-War, tempo counters, cheap card draw, and a finisher like Duskmantle Seer While I'm flipping up my two and three casting cost cards, my opponent is taking five and six damage from his flips. Combine that with my 4/4 flyer and any incremental damage that I've gotten in earlier in the game and this guy will finish the game pretty quick. If your group doesn't play this sort of deck, then I can see bringing Oona, Queen of the Fae in, but she was borderline for us when we had her in before.
We played Hex Parasite right after its release for a while and it was awful. It was not at all what we wanted and constantly disappointed.
I don't really like Vexing Sphinx either. A three mana 4/4 flyer is definitely awesome, but even in reanimator decks you don't have that much stuff that you want to discard. Not only that, but you've even removed something like Deep Analysis which would play right alongside this Sphinx with a ton of synergy.
My Born of the Gods update is going to look like this:
We've had Kiora in for a few drafts now and she's been solid. I'm not overly excited about anything here other than Brimaz. It's always fun to play with new cards, though, so I'm at least excited about trying them out.
Hey man, thanks for the detailed reply.
I'm still trying to get a feel for my group to see what they like/play, so some of the changes are reflective of that.
I certainly see your point on some of these cards (Changeling Titan, Conjurer's Closet, Kresh), so I'm going to take them out and try to find something better.
So far, Karn and Guttersnipe have been pretty great. Haven't been able to play with Voltaic Key and Aether Vial yet, but I'd like to try them at least. I put in Aether Vial as a quasi mana rock, but I see your point in that it needs to be dropped first turn to be the most effective.
Why Fireball over Molten Disaster? Wouldn't Disaster do more damage in the long run (hits more creatures consistently)?
A shame that Jaya isn't all that impressive. I was looking forward to trying her out.
I think I'll just put Rishadan Port back in. I wasn't sold on the card until recently, and I see how Lotus Vale just doesn't bring the value.
I don't know what I was thinking with Greed and Loyal Sentry. I just found the Javelineers to be so underwhelming. I need to find something better. Spirit of the Labyrinth seems cool.
I love Bloodgift Demon, but the mana cost is a little prohibitive. Blood Artist seems like a good alternative, thanks!
I took Vinelasher out because he's just a vanilla grower that can be chump blocked all day long. I played him a few times and he just sat there.
I think I'll put Dismember back in, not sure why it got the cut in the first place.
I played with Broodmate Dragon and it was *okay*...I like the Hellkite idea, I think I'll try him out.
My concern with the man lands is their vulnerability. Not only are you paying every turn to get a creature out of them, but when they die, you're losing a creature and a land. On the other hand, having them die would make Crucible and Loam more useful.
I guess I've been looking at Duskmantle the wrong way. To me, all I see is my opponents getting card advantage the same as me. I guess in ideal circumstances, my opponents won't be playing with a low curve, but he was consistently being passed over in draft so that helped influence my decision to cut him. I'll try him again and see if I can hit the value.
It's a shame about Hex Parasite. I thought it would be a great Planeswalker killer.
Again, thank you for your input. It means a lot that you went through each card change for me. I'm still relatively new to cube building, so my card evaluation has a long way to go. I've been reading tons of articles, though, so I'm starting to see why certain cards are valued so highly in a format like this. At the end of the day, I'm still beholden to my playgroup, so if cards are consistently not being played, then I'm going to cut them for things that will be. I initially chose your cube because of the decent size (555) and that it was similar to other powered lists out there. I wanted to get more variety than 360 cards, but didn't want it to be too bloated, and I kept coming back to yours as a basis for what I wanted. That being said, I do want to personalize my cube, so that was the motivation behind some of the changes. I guess that's one of the reasons I enjoy this format so much; it's always in flux and evolving.
Why Fireball over Molten Disaster? Wouldn't Disaster do more damage in the long run (hits more creatures consistently)?
Molten Disaster may very well do more damage in the long run, but I think Fireball will be more consistent. I like a good Earthquake spell, but the extra red mana in Molten Disaster is a huge hit. To put it into context look through some cube lists and take note of how many powered lists are running Mind Twist vs how many powered cubes are running Mind Shatter. The extra mana in the cost of an X spell can be the difference between completely broken and just unplayable. Also the kicker on Molten Disaster will mostly just be flavor text. Fireball has the ability to be a one sided Wrath or just a straight up finisher that goes to their dome.
My concern with the man lands is their vulnerability. Not only are you paying every turn to get a creature out of them, but when they die, you're losing a creature and a land. On the other hand, having them die would make Crucible and Loam more useful.
The man lands are just as vulnerable as every land with the added vulnerability of dying to burn and other removal. The way I see that, though, is if they used up their Lightning Bolt or Doom Blade to blow up my land, I'm kind of ok with that. One thing to point out on that note, however, is that they only die to instant speed removal. And you're right, the man lands are a big reason for the existence of Crucible of Worlds and Life From the Loam in cube.
I guess I've been looking at Duskmantle the wrong way. To me, all I see is my opponents getting card advantage the same as me. I guess in ideal circumstances, my opponents won't be playing with a low curve, but he was consistently being passed over in draft so that helped influence my decision to cut him. I'll try him again and see if I can hit the value.
That's exactly right. When you read him without the context of the decks in the game, he's a very symmetrical card. The difference is that I was able to craft my deck around having a card like him in my list. My spells probably don't go above four and he may very well be my only four drop. Meanwhile, my opponent is likely flipping up cards that cost four or more. The amount of damage he deals is just unreal. I've killed my opponent with just single flip before. Think about it like this. Three is probably the most crowded mana cost in the cube. If they flip a three drop and then you're able to get in for four damage with your flyer, that's seven damage for four mana. That's worth it. If they flip anything above that, it's just gravy. And seeing them flip a fat finisher (think Eldrazi or Bolas), it's just the nut high.
It's a shame about Hex Parasite. I thought it would be a great Planeswalker killer.
It really is a shame. I wanted that guy to be good as well.
I'm glad that you chose my cube as a starting place and I'm glad that you're listening to your group's input. You have to play to your group, so if they don't like a specific card or archetype, regardless of my own opinion of it, it has to go. This doesn't mean it has to be replaced by something worse, though. There's a plethora of good options for cubes now, so there's plenty of options for replacements. You can push green aggro and minimize the ramp. You can support Wildfire or not. You can include Show and Tell and Eureka. The only thing I'll add is that even though you want to listen to your group and play to their wants, that doesn't mean you have to run bad cards. After a few drafts you'll start to get a feel for what works and what will make your cube group happy.
Agreed. I'd even throw Spellskite into that group too.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
The only cut on that list that I'm iffy about is Aether Adept. I'm actually more included to cut Gilded Drake after seeing the responses in the This or That thread. That's definitely a discussion we'll have to have.
As for the rest of the cards that showed up...
Unexpectedly Absent once put a dude on top of my library and once put a Crystal Shard two cards down. All in all, I'd say it was a solid white removal spell.
True-Name Nemesis was, as expected, a complete house. To add insult to injury that person also had Jitte. It was disgusting to watch.
Toxic Deluge was a three mana ***. Although, I did screw up and tutor for it to kill a Falkenrath Aristocrat once instead of getting my Recurring Nightmare to bring back a Thragtusk. But that's neither here nor there. The moral of that story is that Deluge was just as good as anticipated.
Curse of Predation only saw play once and it died after one attack step, so it didn't have a chance to do much. I still have high hopes for it, though.
Unfortunately, the other cards didn't show up, but hopefully next week's draft will remedy that.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Man I'd be sad to not have this stuff in my cube. My inner Jonny needs constant nurturing.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
As far as reanimator and blink support, I support both decks, but I don't include an over abundance of support for either. Both decks come together fairly often and I'm ok with that. We had Hellkite in once and cut it for not seeing play. Then we added in more ramp to green and moved that color away from aggressive strategies so we added him back for a second go. He performed about the same.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I recently copied your cube after dismantling my old version and I have to say that it's been a blast! My playgroup agrees this is the best version they've played, so thank you for coming up with (and sharing) your list!
So far most of the new Commander cards have been solid, although we don't get to cube enough to really get a good look at them. I will say that Witch Hunt has seen exactly zero play in the ~ 4-5 drafts that we've seen it come up so far.
That's really flattering that you decided to copy my cube. Thanks for the kind words. I'm really glad you and your group are enjoying it! Happy cubing!
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I will admit there were some cards that I had to google to see why they were good, but I think building this cube has really helped me better evaluate cards and be a better drafter.
Cheers!
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Some of these changes are simply giving cards that we haven't seen for a while a second chance. In some cases it's been over two years since we had that card in. This is because the cube is a very different place now and I want to give them another chance to shine. A couple of additions are going in to help add a bit of density to certain archetypes that don't always come together properly when Winston drafting or drafting with a small group. The rest is either stuff that I've missed, the added card didn't work out, or I just want to give that card a shot. So without further adieu, here's some proposed changes.
All changes are OUT -> IN format.
Karmic Guide -> Eternal Dragon
Akroma's Vengeance -> Catastrophe
Omenspeaker -> Gilded Drake
Seagate Oracle -> Waterfront Bouncer
Frost Titan -> Inkwell Leviathan
Volcanic Hammer -> Gorilla Shaman
Pyroclasm -> Firestorm
Ember Swallower -> Purphoros, God of the Forge
Witch Hunt -> Sneak Attack
Mizzium Mortars -> Burning of Xinye
Vorapede -> Pelakka Wurm
Krosan Tusker -> Awakening Zone
Basilisk Collar -> Zuran Orb
Juggernaut -> Precursor Golem
Broodmate Dragon -> Hellkite Overlord
Azorius Chancery -> Flood Plain
Dimir Aqueduct -> Bad River
Temple of Mystery -> Yavimaya Coast
As always, comments and suggestions are welcome.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
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MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
..but then again, I find white to be the hardest to find cuts from.
These are all fantastic cards coming back in. Glad to see Catastrophe given another chance!
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Proxies for the win as we do not own one of these either.
I am not a fan of 2 wildfires nor firestorm but I am ok with giving them a chance again as long as I get to keep gilded drake,
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Imperial Seal -> Entomb (A little explanation for the P3K cards. I'm working on completing my cube without any proxies and I can't justify spending stupid amounts on these cards since other much cheaper cards do the same thing, so I'm removing them all and replacing them)
Gore-House Chainwalker -> Guttersnipe
Juggernaut -> Volatile Rig
Triskelion -> Karn, Silver Golem (I use him to turn artifacts into creatures to make them easier to kill. Also, destroys moxes really efficiently)
Mortarpod -> Voltaic Key
Sewer Nemesis -> Ophiomancer
Consuming Vapors -> Greed
Sea Gate Oracle -> True Name Nemesis
Rolling Earthquake -> Molten Disaster (rumors of a rolling earthquake reprint could put this one back in)
Faerie Conclave -> Faerie Imposter (I like the value, want to boost ETB effects more as well)
Imperial Recruiter -> Jaya Ballard, Taskmage (love the value)
Cursed Scroll -> The Rack
Contagion -> Toxic Deluge
Rishadan Port -> Lotus Vale (did this for more Crucible/Life from the Loam support, although I might switch back)
Paladin en-Vec -> Galepowder Mage (trying to boost the flicker archetype)
Keldon Vandals -> Goblin Ruinblaster (want more LD)
Icatian Javelineers -> Loyal Sentry (not sure about this one)
Krosan Tusker -> Viridian Emissary
Chimeric Idol -> Infiltration Lens (love the 2 card draw value)
Treetop Village -> Scythe Tiger (quicker aggro, also more support for Crucible, etc.)
Time Spiral -> Inkwell Leviathan (time spiral was underwhelming to my group, no one wanted to use it)
Moat -> Unexpectedly Absent (Moat also saw no play and given the price tag, not worth it for me)
Blood Scrivener -> Bloodgift Demon (we find much more draw from this guy)
Kargan Dragonlord -> Goblin Welder
Wheel of Fortune -> Incendiary Command (i like the variety)
Birthing Pod -> Search for Tomorrow
Nantuko Vigilante -> Harrow
Shelldock Isle -> Serum Visions
Fire Imp -> Galvanic Blast
Vinelasher Kudzu -> Joiner Adept
Master of the Wild Hunt -> Changeling Titan (good value, more ETB support)
Dismember -> Victimize
Broodmate Dragon -> Kresh the Bloodbraided (haven't drafted him yet, still not sure)
Bottle Gnomes -> Aether Vial
Oblivion Stone -> Conjurer's Closet (flicker!)
Urza's Factory -> Gruul War Plow (i know, it's not G/R...might just be a filler until i find something better)
Duskmantle Seer -> Oona, Queen of the Fae (not a fan of this guy, Bob is hard enough to draft as it is)
Deep Analysis -> Ideas Unbound
Carrion Feeder -> Hex Parasite (planeswalker destroyer, counter shenanigans)
I also want to put Vexing Sphinx in but haven't figured out what to take out to replace him. I want to push the reanimator archetype some more and think this guy will be good for that (and looting, given the card draw).
As far as Born of the Gods cards...I'm putting Brimaz in for sure, as well as Kiora. Not sure what else yet, need to do some more research. What BNG cards are you thinking of putting in?
I feel the man lands are too slow and have not been very effective. Coming into play tapped is a pretty big disadvantage, so I swapped them out for creatures that are more aggressive.
Nobody in my playgroup would play Wheel of Fortune due to the card advantage it gives your opponents. So I went with Incendiary Command because it quasi does the same thing, while giving you more options.
I agree that Changeling Titan isn't the strongest, but so far it's been a pretty decent include. I've thrown it on top of small ETB creatures and have had some good success with it. I don't know what to exchange for it, maybe that new Oracle of Mul Daya repeat from the new set...
Cutting the P3K cards due to price is completely fair. I'll be honest and tell you that there's no way in hell I'm ever paying 600+ for a worse version of Vampiric Tutor. That card will forever be a proxy in my list (even if it ends up being an altered Cruel Tutor).
I've heard good things about Guttersnipe from other folks, so I'd be interested in hearing what you've thought about this guy.
Volatile Rig for Juggernaut is probably fine. I do like Juggalug more, but I've not been overly impressed with him lately.
I like Triskelion, but Karn, Silver Golem is certainly interesting. I've never ran him because I've never pushed the artifact deck. It just wasn't a deck my group was all that interested in.
I don't care for Voltaic Key because it just doesn't do enough. It's pretty good with a big mana rock and it's decent to give your artifact guys pseudo vigilance, but I think overall it's just a big do nothing.
Sewer Nemesis for Ophiomancer is probably fine. I like the snake charmer and SN is near the bottom of the good four drops list. He can certainly be Fatty McFatterson at times, though. He's a deal for four mana.
Greed is a really bad card. Consuming Vapors is awesome. Not much more I can say about that swap.
Swapping True-Name Nemesis in for Sea Gate Oracle is probably fine, but I like Oracle quite a bit more than Omenspeaker if you've still got that in.
If I were to cut Rolling Earthquake, I'd probably bring in another X spell, but it wouldn't be Molten Disaster. It would likely be the classic Fireball or possibly Devil's Play.
Faerie Conclave is fantastic. The man lands aren't there to be fast. Conclave is great in UX tempo decks that like to get a little aggressive and UX control decks as incremental damage. Faerie Imposter seems slow and also like a card without a true home. It might go into a UX tempo deck, but the blue in those decks tends to come in the form of counters, bounce, and draw. I can't approve of this swap at all.
I'd recommend bring in something like Country Side Crusher or Blistering Firecat for Imperial Recruiter. We ran Jaya Ballard, Task Mage forever ago and we were never really impressed. She seems good on paper, but she's fragile and needy. That's not what I want in a woman.
Cursed Scroll is going to be really good in all of your aggressive decks. It's colorless removal, incremental damage, and it poses the threat of inevitability. The Rack will be pretty good every now and then. The rest of the time it will be sideboard fodder.
Contagion out. Toxic Deluge in. That's what I'd do as well.
I can understand wanting more support for cards like Crucible of Worlds and Life From the Loam, but I don't think Lotus Vale is where that support should come from. Keep in mind that this is cube and land destruction cards do exist. If I played Lotus Vale and my opponent found a way to kill it next turn (Wasteland, Strip Mine, Avalanche Riders, Vindicate, Armageddon, etc), I might flip the table and quit Magic forever.
*Side note* Lotus Vale was the rare in the first pack of Magic cards I ever opened. The second rare? Volrath's Stronghold. I traded them both to a friend who already played for my very first deck. A terrible GW stompy deck with Trained Armadon and Iron Tusk Elephant. Good times.
I think Paladin en-Vec is expendable, but I also think Galepowder Mage goes into an already very crowded mana cost. I like him ok, I just don't think he's good enough to fit there. I'd rather see Paladin cut for something more similar like Brimaz, King of Oreskos. I also think the blink archetype is already fairly heavily supported without the addition of Galepowder Mage.
Keldon Vandals for Goblin Ruinblaster seems fine. This is another strike against Lotus Vale, though.
I play on cutting Icatian Javelineers to make room for Spirit of the Labyrinth. I'm not a huge fan of the Javelineers, but I think Loyal Sentry is borderline unplayable. It's like a white Typhoid Rats. Meh.
Krosan Tusker for Viridian Emissary is fine as well. I like the Emissary in my peasant cube, so I could see him being decent here as well. Tusker is good, but not really needed.
We actually ran Infiltration Lens for a bit and found it to be quite lackluster. I wanted it to be a slightly worse Skullclamp, but ended up being quite a bit worse. Chimeric Idol is a card that I like any of my black control decks. I may be a little biased toward him because I played him quite a bit in extended and legacy Pox lists back in the day. Also he's the only Prophecy card good enough to make the cut. That has to mean something, right?!
Treetop Village shouldn't be considered an aggro card. It should be considered an all around really good card. It's damn near the best man land ever printed. It's fantastic in any deck playing green. It goes into aggro decks, midrange, and even rampy control lists just the same. I think it's a 360 staple and I wouldn't want to cube without it.
I understand losing Time Spiral. We cut Timetwister because it was always so hard to make the effect asymmetrical. It seemed to always backfire. I'm happy with Inkwell Leviathan so far.
Not running Moat is fair if you don't wish to run proxies and don't want to drop that kind of money on a Magic card. I like using this slot for Unexpectedly Absent.
In a vacuum I like Bloodgift Demon a little more than I like Blood Scrivener. Giving Scrivener the Demon's ability would be full of win. Alas, though, I don't think they are fighting for the same slots so I wouldn't want to cut a two drop in favor of a five drop. If I were to cut Scrivener from my list right now, I'd probably use that slot to test out Blood Artist.
I just realized this is a ******* long list of changes and quite the endeavor I've taken on. But let's keep going...
I never liked Goblin Welder, but again that's because my group was never a fan of the artifact deck. I think if you want to run cards like this guy and Karn, then you should also think about including both Tezzeret the Seeker and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. [c]Kargan Dragonlord[c] is probably expendable if you're looking to support that deck. He's been really good for us in the mono red and heavy red aggro decks, though.
Wheel of Fortune is a card that my group has trouble with as well. I probably won't cut this one, though, based on pure principal. I really like it and I play it in any of my red aggro decks. I do understand where you're coming from on your reasoning behind cutting it, though. Sometimes your group wins out. I don't like Incendiary Command, though. I'd probably use this slot to try out something different like Goblin Bombardment or I'd just bring in something boring and familiar like Brimstone Volley.
I can get behind cutting Birthing Pod. That card actually came up in our Born of the Gods discussion when contemplating cuts. However, I don't know that Search for Tomorrow is needed. If your group doesn't like Pod decks or they just don't come together, I'd probably slot in the new Courser of Kruphix in its place.
Nantuko Vigilante is kind of a boring card, but it's good and having a way to deal with problematic artifacts and enchantment is necessary. And again, I don't think you need the extra ramp from Harrow. I will say that I like Search for Tomorrow more than Harrow, so if you decide to keep only one, I'd go with Search.
Shelldock Isle is a card that others around the internet seem to find to be bonkers. I've only found it to be pretty solid. It's ok, but I wouldn't fault anyone for cutting it. Serum Visions is also ok, so this a fine swap IMO. I think I like Shelldock more, but Serum Visions isn't bad. I might actually try Ancestral Vision in this slot if you want to drop Shelldock. We played it a while back and weren't too impressed with it, but it's a card I wouldn't mind giving another shot.
How often do you think you'll have enough artifacts to trigger metalcraft on Galvanic Blast? My initial guess would be almost never. I'd rather have the two damage on a creature than I can abuse with bounce and blink than just a Shock.
I do like Vinelasher Kudzu more than Joiner Adept, but I can see the merits of running Adept. It's a two mana 2/1 so it fits into aggressive builds the same way that Kudzu does and it helps to fix your mana. I can see this one being personal preference. I do like Kudzu quite a bit, though. He can get out of control really quick, especially if you play him on turn two with a mana dork before you play your second land. He's just a really solid aggro dork.
Changeling Titan is basically terrible. Not only is he mayor of Chumpsville where he just gets blocked all day long for no real value, but I never liked the Champion ability. I'd rather not Oblivion Ring my own dude just to get another dude that provides very little value. Master of the Wild Hunt however, is completely full of value. He's a solid body, he cranks out threats, and he's removal in a color that doesn't normally get removal. I don't understand this swap at all. If you must cut Master, then at least throw in something like Phantom Centaur which is still leagues above Changeling Titan.
What do you not like about Dismember? It kills a good 90% or more of the cube's creature base. (That stat is made up. It's actually probably more than that.) It can be ran by any color in any deck. It's a very splashable spell. I can understand wanting more graveyard and reanimation support, but I don't think Dismember is the card that gets cut for it and I don't think Victimize is the card to provide that support. Makeshift Mannequin is the only card on my radar for including to boost reanimation support right now and even that card is borderline.
Kresh the Bloodbraided is another resident of Chumpsville. I'd highly recommend bringing in Hellkite Overlord in this spot instead. It gives you another reanimation target, ramp target, and Natural Order target. If you don't like Hellkite, then Broodmate Dragon is a much better Jund card than Kresh. Two 4/4 flyers for six mana is a much better deal than big guy that's just going to be blocked for days. Creatures like Kresh need trample or evasion before they start to be good enough for cube standards. Not only is he boring, but he's three colors. He's just not worth the investment at all.
Oh no! You cut Bottle Gnomes! I'd admit that it's not the most exciting card, but it fits great into most control shells. Aether Vial was always a card that looked great on paper based on it's stellar performance in other formats, but always seemed to disappoint in cube. Playing it on turn one should be the nut high, but I almost always just wished it was another one mana 2/1.
Conjurer's Closet needs to cost something like two or three mana before it makes the cut, IMO. I do like the effect, but it's not worth five mana an an artifact that doesn't do anything at all if I don't have something in play that I want to blink. At least with Venser, Shaper Savant I'm ticking up my planeswalker toward a pretty sick utlimate. I don't like this card at all, really. [c]Oblivion Stone[c] has been a very good control card. It's not the best thing ever, but it's definitely better than a five mana card that may or may not do something useful.
I'm not running Urza's Factory, so I assume you cut Mishra's Factory for Gruul War Plow. Again, I just don't understand these changes at all. Mishra's Factory is up there with Treetop Village for the best man land ever trophy. I want the War Plow's ability (1RG: ~this~ becomes a 4/4 trampler) on a RG land that hits play tapped. That's what would make it playable.
I think think Dark Confidant is hard to draft at all. Black aggro is my personal favorite aggro and it's pretty well supported here. One of my favorite decks to draft is UB aggro tempo with the black one mana two power guys, Bob, Man-o'-War, tempo counters, cheap card draw, and a finisher like Duskmantle Seer While I'm flipping up my two and three casting cost cards, my opponent is taking five and six damage from his flips. Combine that with my 4/4 flyer and any incremental damage that I've gotten in earlier in the game and this guy will finish the game pretty quick. If your group doesn't play this sort of deck, then I can see bringing Oona, Queen of the Fae in, but she was borderline for us when we had her in before.
Deep Analysis for Ideas Unbound? This is bad. Very very bad.
We played Hex Parasite right after its release for a while and it was awful. It was not at all what we wanted and constantly disappointed.
I don't really like Vexing Sphinx either. A three mana 4/4 flyer is definitely awesome, but even in reanimator decks you don't have that much stuff that you want to discard. Not only that, but you've even removed something like Deep Analysis which would play right alongside this Sphinx with a ton of synergy.
My Born of the Gods update is going to look like this:
Icatian Javelineers -> Spirit of the Labyrinth
Paladin en-Vec -> Brimaz, King of Orekos
Dauthi Horror -> Pain Seer
Boon Satyr -> Courser of Kruphix
Blightning -> Mogis, God of Slaughter
Prime Speaker Zegana -> Kiora, the Crashing Wave
We've had Kiora in for a few drafts now and she's been solid. I'm not overly excited about anything here other than Brimaz. It's always fun to play with new cards, though, so I'm at least excited about trying them out.
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I'm still trying to get a feel for my group to see what they like/play, so some of the changes are reflective of that.
I certainly see your point on some of these cards (Changeling Titan, Conjurer's Closet, Kresh), so I'm going to take them out and try to find something better.
So far, Karn and Guttersnipe have been pretty great. Haven't been able to play with Voltaic Key and Aether Vial yet, but I'd like to try them at least. I put in Aether Vial as a quasi mana rock, but I see your point in that it needs to be dropped first turn to be the most effective.
Why Fireball over Molten Disaster? Wouldn't Disaster do more damage in the long run (hits more creatures consistently)?
A shame that Jaya isn't all that impressive. I was looking forward to trying her out.
I think I'll just put Rishadan Port back in. I wasn't sold on the card until recently, and I see how Lotus Vale just doesn't bring the value.
I don't know what I was thinking with Greed and Loyal Sentry. I just found the Javelineers to be so underwhelming. I need to find something better. Spirit of the Labyrinth seems cool.
I love Bloodgift Demon, but the mana cost is a little prohibitive. Blood Artist seems like a good alternative, thanks!
I took Vinelasher out because he's just a vanilla grower that can be chump blocked all day long. I played him a few times and he just sat there.
I think I'll put Dismember back in, not sure why it got the cut in the first place.
I played with Broodmate Dragon and it was *okay*...I like the Hellkite idea, I think I'll try him out.
My concern with the man lands is their vulnerability. Not only are you paying every turn to get a creature out of them, but when they die, you're losing a creature and a land. On the other hand, having them die would make Crucible and Loam more useful.
I guess I've been looking at Duskmantle the wrong way. To me, all I see is my opponents getting card advantage the same as me. I guess in ideal circumstances, my opponents won't be playing with a low curve, but he was consistently being passed over in draft so that helped influence my decision to cut him. I'll try him again and see if I can hit the value.
It's a shame about Hex Parasite. I thought it would be a great Planeswalker killer.
Again, thank you for your input. It means a lot that you went through each card change for me. I'm still relatively new to cube building, so my card evaluation has a long way to go. I've been reading tons of articles, though, so I'm starting to see why certain cards are valued so highly in a format like this. At the end of the day, I'm still beholden to my playgroup, so if cards are consistently not being played, then I'm going to cut them for things that will be. I initially chose your cube because of the decent size (555) and that it was similar to other powered lists out there. I wanted to get more variety than 360 cards, but didn't want it to be too bloated, and I kept coming back to yours as a basis for what I wanted. That being said, I do want to personalize my cube, so that was the motivation behind some of the changes. I guess that's one of the reasons I enjoy this format so much; it's always in flux and evolving.
Molten Disaster may very well do more damage in the long run, but I think Fireball will be more consistent. I like a good Earthquake spell, but the extra red mana in Molten Disaster is a huge hit. To put it into context look through some cube lists and take note of how many powered lists are running Mind Twist vs how many powered cubes are running Mind Shatter. The extra mana in the cost of an X spell can be the difference between completely broken and just unplayable. Also the kicker on Molten Disaster will mostly just be flavor text. Fireball has the ability to be a one sided Wrath or just a straight up finisher that goes to their dome.
The man lands are just as vulnerable as every land with the added vulnerability of dying to burn and other removal. The way I see that, though, is if they used up their Lightning Bolt or Doom Blade to blow up my land, I'm kind of ok with that. One thing to point out on that note, however, is that they only die to instant speed removal. And you're right, the man lands are a big reason for the existence of Crucible of Worlds and Life From the Loam in cube.
That's exactly right. When you read him without the context of the decks in the game, he's a very symmetrical card. The difference is that I was able to craft my deck around having a card like him in my list. My spells probably don't go above four and he may very well be my only four drop. Meanwhile, my opponent is likely flipping up cards that cost four or more. The amount of damage he deals is just unreal. I've killed my opponent with just single flip before. Think about it like this. Three is probably the most crowded mana cost in the cube. If they flip a three drop and then you're able to get in for four damage with your flyer, that's seven damage for four mana. That's worth it. If they flip anything above that, it's just gravy. And seeing them flip a fat finisher (think Eldrazi or Bolas), it's just the nut high.
It really is a shame. I wanted that guy to be good as well.
I'm glad that you chose my cube as a starting place and I'm glad that you're listening to your group's input. You have to play to your group, so if they don't like a specific card or archetype, regardless of my own opinion of it, it has to go. This doesn't mean it has to be replaced by something worse, though. There's a plethora of good options for cubes now, so there's plenty of options for replacements. You can push green aggro and minimize the ramp. You can support Wildfire or not. You can include Show and Tell and Eureka. The only thing I'll add is that even though you want to listen to your group and play to their wants, that doesn't mean you have to run bad cards. After a few drafts you'll start to get a feel for what works and what will make your cube group happy.
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