Yeah, I feel like there are now 450 staples instead of 360 staples. Another year and it'll be 500 staples. At 360 a lot of the contents really just come down to personal preference and which awesome card you want more.
i think this is probably an illusion. they've printed a lot of good cards lately, and when you get used to a card making the cut in a 360 it's hard to think of it as not good enough. but i think there will always be the objectively most powerful 360 list (when it comes to standard cubes, more on that below). i agree you can customize, but i think that's true for other sizes as well, although it's obviously easier to support unusual archetypes in a smaller cube. but while customized 360 standard lists may appear to be as powerful, i think they probably aren't. if you're going for power alone, i think there's probably a "correct" choice of what to play.
however, looking at some of the combo cubes that have sprouted up in the past couple of months, i no longer think of the standard cube as the highest power level. i think some combo cubes, even though they're theme cubes, are arguably as powerful or more so than a standard cube. i'm used to theme cubes (like tribal, pauper, or multicolor heavy cubes) being lower powered than a standard powered cube but i think when you're consistently winning every game in the first few turns with some of the most historically powerful combos you're playing some of the most powerful magic.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Seal and Relic Warder see a lot more play than Scepter of Dominance. And I mean A LOT. I don't know why, really, but my group just doesn't favor the Scepter very much. It's probably the next card to go from my white section in all honesty.
Again, cutting a blue fatty for Propaganda also seems to defeat the purpose of adding something like Propaganda in the first place. I take away one control card and add in another control card and control is still in the same position. Shapeshifter could possibly go, but I just added him back in last week, so I hate to cut him already.
I think it's just gonna be that it stays as is and I need to keep a closer watch on what sort of decks are getting built and what sort of decks are winning the most often.
Again, cutting a blue fatty for Propaganda also seems to defeat the purpose of adding something like Propaganda in the first place. I take away one control card and add in another control card and control is still in the same position. Shapeshifter could possibly go, but I just added him back in last week, so I hate to cut him already.
I feel that the fatties are what you drop down when you've already stabilized.
Propaganda is a card that significantly helps stabilize.
Therefore, while a blue fatty and Propaganda are both control cards, they serve different functions in the same control deck... so maybe you just need to add a few more control instigators rather than control finishers?
More hadoukens instead of fatalities?
Your friend might have had trouble stabilizing the board with his control deck before dropping down one of his finishers; so that might've been the problem.
That may be true, but we mostly winston draft, so I like to have a good amount of fatties in blue. It's the color that plays control the most and since we usually have such small draft pools, I like to make sure there will normally be at least one blue fatty in there. We actually just removed Sphinx of Jwar Isle, so I really don't want to remove another fatty at this point.
Like I said, I think it's best to just keep it as is at this point and keep a close eye on what decks are getting built and what decks are winning.
By the way, I just drafted this cube over at tappedout--I noticed you had updated it. I am finding practice-drafting my cube there a bit stale, and really enjoyed the cube. It's one thing to read through a list here, and something else entirely to actually draft it, even against dumb bots.
I never saw any power, but drafted a great GWR zoo deck. It was full of all the powerful 2-drops and swords I can't afford in my cube...
Next time I'll try exporting the decklist and posting it here. Mostly I wanted to say how much fun the draft was.
By the way, I just drafted this cube over at tappedout--I noticed you had updated it. I am finding practice-drafting my cube there a bit stale, and really enjoyed the cube. It's one thing to read through a list here, and something else entirely to actually draft it, even against dumb bots.
I never saw any power, but drafted a great GWR zoo deck. It was full of all the powerful 2-drops and swords I can't afford in my cube...
Next time I'll try exporting the decklist and posting it here. Mostly I wanted to say how much fun the draft was.
That's awesome, man! Thanks for the praise. I'd definitely love to see what you draft here. It's nice to see what people outside of my normal group will draft. Most of us are fairly predictable.
Hey,
I was wondering where you got the case for the cards?
Thanks
It's actually a brief case that one of the guys got for Christmas a few years ago. I'm not sure where it came from. Probably a department store like Wal-Mart or K-Mart. Sorry, I can't help ya more than that.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
the changes look good but i'd like to hear your reasoning for this one.
I'd cut Hellkite Charger before a second Wildfire. I forced it a few times recently and a lot of my friends have come around to realizing how good that deck can be. I'd love a second copy of it but it's too expensive. At your size, I don't think two copies of the same card like that is bad as it makes it easier to draft the deck and if you can get two copies in one deck, score! Also, it works better with Chandra than Hellkite Charger which was just a big blunt attacker when we played it. I don't miss it at all but if you think you need it, calibretto than maybe Kikki Jikki?
I'd cut Hellkite Charger before a second Wildfire. I forced it a few times recently and a lot of my friends have come around to realizing how good that deck can be. I'd love a second copy of it but it's too expensive. At your size, I don't think two copies of the same card like that is bad as it makes it easier to draft the deck and if you can get two copies in one deck, score! Also, it works better with Chandra than Hellkite Charger which was just a big blunt attacker when we played it. I don't miss it at all but if you think you need it, calibretto than maybe Kikki Jikki?
Fair enough, guys. I think a quote from one of the guys in my crew from a recent cube session sums it up nicely. "I think two Wildfires is two too many." Now, this guy in particular is simply not a fan of the card. He's taken it several times and he's never able to "break" it. I've played it to some success against him and against others, but honestly, I think I'm the only person that seriously picks up Wildfire. Because of that, I don't feel like two copies of it are warranted. I don't want to cut both, but only having one seems sufficient considering that my crew aren't fans of the card to begin withl.
I agree that two copies of the same spell at this size isn't bad. I run two Kami of Ancient Law, two Cultivates, and two Armageddons. Wildfire just isn't that popular among my group, so running two of them doesn't make sense here. Which is a shame, really, because I love the card and try to "break" it whenever I can.
Hellkite Charger is kinda meh and I'd be willing to cut him as well, but I think right now the second Wildfire needs to go simply because of it's lack of popularity. Hellkite Charger at least gets played. And Kiki Jiki is a fan favorite here, so I don't expect it to leave any time in the foreseeable future.
We discussed cutting a blue finisher (I realize that I am a bit top heavy in that section), but came to the conclusion that they all see enough play to keep them in for now. If the addition of Jace 3.0 makes me feel like blue control is dominating and is hard to deal with, then I'll probably cut a finisher.
With that said, I don't know that it'd be Frost Titan. To quote another regular from my cube crew, "I wasn't sure about this guy to begin with, but he's been pretty ****ing awesome." Titan has a ton of popularity here, so I can't imagine he'd be cut. I think I'd probably cut Palinchron if I had to cut a finisher.
And Wake Thrasher is a popular card here as well. For us blue is a lot more than just control or a splash in aggressive or midrange decks. Cards like Wake Thrasher show up in Bant, UW Skies (I know he doesn't fly), and Grixis decks all the time here.
I'm a firm believer in catering to your group (to a point). If my group loves a card and keeping it in doesn't seem to unbalance the cube or make me feel like I'm keeping a terrible card in because one guy likes it, then I'm fine with it (which is the case for the blue finisher suite and Wake Thrasher). The same for cards that my group tends to shy away from. They don't really like Wildfire or actively seek the Wildfire deck, so having two copies is definitely overkill.
I'm a firm believer in catering to your group (to a point). If my group loves a card and keeping it in doesn't seem to unbalance the cube or make me feel like I'm keeping a terrible card in because one guy likes it, then I'm fine with it
Well, Stifle is another fan favorite, so it's probably not going anywhere. Frantic Search could possibly get the axe over Repeal, though. I'll bring that up at the next cube session.
As I've said, BoX is gone and I'm not sad about it at all. My group doesn't really play the Wildfire deck and aren't big fans of the card or the archetype. I like it, but there's no sense including two copies of a card just for one guy. I think one copy of Wildfire is sufficient.
I think Aftershock is a 360 staple, so that's not going anywhere. I know that's a touchy dead horse, so I won't go further into that one. Chaos Warp has been incredibly fun and awesome and probably the most story inducing card the cube has seen in a long while. Words of War has been great and has won me plenty of games based solely on the back of that one card alone. Kiki Jiki is another fan favorite that's probably not going anywhere. I realize he's not the most powerful card, but he's a lot of fun and gets a lot of laughs out of my group when he's in play. Hellkite Charger could possibly go over Keldon Champion, though. He's fairly boring. I'll bring that one up as well.
wildfire didn't see a ton of play here either, so i don't run xinye despite the card's obvious power. so i was just curious about your reasoning. i'm also planning on giving stifle a try if i get a chance to do some regular cubing in the future.
i think your philosophy about cube design is spot on and i find myself wanting to cube with you yet again.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I don't like the cut of Burning of Xinye, Repeal or Waterfront Bouncer from a cube this size.
I feel like I've already defended the BoX cut enough at this point, that I shouldn't need to defend it again. I'll just keep it short and say, my crew doesn't dig on the Wildfire deck so two Wildfires is overkill.
I could go either way on Repeal. I like the card and I'm open to another cut, as long as it's not a card that my crew really enjoys drafting (like my current blue finisher suite, Wake Thrasher, or Stifle).
I thought you'd be the one to have a problem with the Waterfront Bouncer cut. I'll once again quote a friend to defend that cut. "What's this guy still doing here? Get him the **** out." Granted, that's just one person's opinion, but the Bouncer goes late quite often and, to be honest, I can't remember the last time he was even main decked, let alone used to success. He's not a popular card here, so he got the axe.
I like him ok and I think I might actually have been the last person to draft and play him, but if a card is consistently a late pick and/or sideboard fodder, then it should get the axe.
Also I made this tiny change today:
Hex Parasite -> Shuko
I originally took Shuko out for the Parasite, but as it turns out, Parasite sucks dong, so back in Shuko goes. It's not amazing but it's a decent aggro card and can often get in an extra 3-4 damage over the course of the game. It's certainly better than Hex Parasite. Maybe ISD (why is it not INN?) will give us a good cheap artifact that can replace Shuko.
We discussed cutting a blue finisher (I realize that I am a bit top heavy in that section), but came to the conclusion that they all see enough play to keep them in for now. If the addition of Jace 3.0 makes me feel like blue control is dominating and is hard to deal with, then I'll probably cut a finisher.
With that said, I don't know that it'd be Frost Titan. To quote another regular from my cube crew, "I wasn't sure about this guy to begin with, but he's been pretty ****ing awesome." Titan has a ton of popularity here, so I can't imagine he'd be cut. I think I'd probably cut Palinchron if I had to cut a finisher.
And Wake Thrasher is a popular card here as well. For us blue is a lot more than just control or a splash in aggressive or midrange decks. Cards like Wake Thrasher show up in Bant, UW Skies (I know he doesn't fly), and Grixis decks all the time here.
I'm a firm believer in catering to your group (to a point). If my group loves a card and keeping it in doesn't seem to unbalance the cube or make me feel like I'm keeping a terrible card in because one guy likes it, then I'm fine with it (which is the case for the blue finisher suite and Wake Thrasher). The same for cards that my group tends to shy away from. They don't really like Wildfire or actively seek the Wildfire deck, so having two copies is definitely overkill.
As for the rest, I've already stated that Stifle is a fan favorite here and sees a lot of play. It's hardly ever not useful and can often be a complete blowout. We've all grown quite fond of it.
Sea Gate Oracle and Vesuvan Shapeshifter are both cards that I like a lot more than Repeal. I think Repeal is good, but I believe Oracle sees more play and Shaeshifter just went back in. Oracle provides some card selection on a decent body that's good for midrange and control decks against aggro. I'm not completely against cutting Shapeshifter (he's been out and back in before), but he's been fairly solid this time around and I'd like to give him more time to perform.
Kami of Ancient Law -> Cloistered Youth
Scepter of Dominance -> Fiend Hunter
Cloudgoat Ranger -> Geist-Honored Monk
The only change there that I think might raise some eye brows is the cut of Cloudgoat Ranger. We discussed that one quite a bit and maybe you can give us points that we didn't think of. On an empty board, Cloudgoat is better. When my board is empty, Cloudgoat can be better. I really think if the Monk will usually come down as a 5/5 or greater, then the vigilance might prove to be better than the possible flying.
Thirst For Knowledge -> Forbidden Alchemy
Inkwell Leviathan -> Ludevic's Test Subject
Stifle -> Snapcaster Mage
Thieving Magpie -> Sturmgeist
Thrashing Wumpus -> Bloodgift Demon
Blind Creeper -> Diregraf Ghoul
Black Knight -> Vampire Interloper
Yawgmoth's Bargain -> Liliana of the Veil
Caller of the Claw -> Bramblecrush
Hurricane -> Garruk Relentless
Terastodon -> Moldgraf Monstrosity
I'm not sure on Terastodon vs Monstrosity. Seven mana vs eight mana and trample vs making 9 power worth of vanilla guys. I don't know. Give me opinions, cube forumites.
Blazing Specter -> Olivia Voldaren
Enemy Filters -> Enemy Duals
I'm thinking on this one too. Feel free to look at my wild card lands and tell me where you think the m11/12/INN duals would be a better option. I'm also curious about the Scars duals.
Anyway, that's that. Opinions are welcome and wanted!
i think this is probably an illusion. they've printed a lot of good cards lately, and when you get used to a card making the cut in a 360 it's hard to think of it as not good enough. but i think there will always be the objectively most powerful 360 list (when it comes to standard cubes, more on that below). i agree you can customize, but i think that's true for other sizes as well, although it's obviously easier to support unusual archetypes in a smaller cube. but while customized 360 standard lists may appear to be as powerful, i think they probably aren't. if you're going for power alone, i think there's probably a "correct" choice of what to play.
however, looking at some of the combo cubes that have sprouted up in the past couple of months, i no longer think of the standard cube as the highest power level. i think some combo cubes, even though they're theme cubes, are arguably as powerful or more so than a standard cube. i'm used to theme cubes (like tribal, pauper, or multicolor heavy cubes) being lower powered than a standard powered cube but i think when you're consistently winning every game in the first few turns with some of the most historically powerful combos you're playing some of the most powerful magic.
and I think you could cut a blue fatty (say, Consecrated Sphinx or Frost Titan) for Propaganda.
Or, if you want to keep your fatties, you could consider Phyrexian Metamorph an upgrade to Vesuvan Shapeshifter and cut him.
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Again, cutting a blue fatty for Propaganda also seems to defeat the purpose of adding something like Propaganda in the first place. I take away one control card and add in another control card and control is still in the same position. Shapeshifter could possibly go, but I just added him back in last week, so I hate to cut him already.
I think it's just gonna be that it stays as is and I need to keep a closer watch on what sort of decks are getting built and what sort of decks are winning the most often.
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I feel that the fatties are what you drop down when you've already stabilized.
Propaganda is a card that significantly helps stabilize.
Therefore, while a blue fatty and Propaganda are both control cards, they serve different functions in the same control deck... so maybe you just need to add a few more control instigators rather than control finishers?
More hadoukens instead of fatalities?
Your friend might have had trouble stabilizing the board with his control deck before dropping down one of his finishers; so that might've been the problem.
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Like I said, I think it's best to just keep it as is at this point and keep a close eye on what decks are getting built and what decks are winning.
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I never saw any power, but drafted a great GWR zoo deck. It was full of all the powerful 2-drops and swords I can't afford in my cube...
Next time I'll try exporting the decklist and posting it here. Mostly I wanted to say how much fun the draft was.
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That's awesome, man! Thanks for the praise. I'd definitely love to see what you draft here. It's nice to see what people outside of my normal group will draft. Most of us are fairly predictable.
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I was wondering where you got the case for the cards?
Thanks
It's actually a brief case that one of the guys got for Christmas a few years ago. I'm not sure where it came from. Probably a department store like Wal-Mart or K-Mart. Sorry, I can't help ya more than that.
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Repeal -> Jace, Memory Adept
Waterfront Bouncer -> Phantasmal Image
Keldon Champion -> Chandra's Phoenix
Goblin Wardriver -> Bloodstorm Berserker
Burning of Xinye -> Chandra, the Firebrand
Basking Rootwalla -> Skinshifter
Stonewood Invocation -> Garruk, Primal Hunter
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the changes look good but i'd like to hear your reasoning for this one.
I'd cut Hellkite Charger before a second Wildfire. I forced it a few times recently and a lot of my friends have come around to realizing how good that deck can be. I'd love a second copy of it but it's too expensive. At your size, I don't think two copies of the same card like that is bad as it makes it easier to draft the deck and if you can get two copies in one deck, score! Also, it works better with Chandra than Hellkite Charger which was just a big blunt attacker when we played it. I don't miss it at all but if you think you need it, calibretto than maybe Kikki Jikki?
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Fair enough, guys. I think a quote from one of the guys in my crew from a recent cube session sums it up nicely. "I think two Wildfires is two too many." Now, this guy in particular is simply not a fan of the card. He's taken it several times and he's never able to "break" it. I've played it to some success against him and against others, but honestly, I think I'm the only person that seriously picks up Wildfire. Because of that, I don't feel like two copies of it are warranted. I don't want to cut both, but only having one seems sufficient considering that my crew aren't fans of the card to begin withl.
I agree that two copies of the same spell at this size isn't bad. I run two Kami of Ancient Law, two Cultivates, and two Armageddons. Wildfire just isn't that popular among my group, so running two of them doesn't make sense here. Which is a shame, really, because I love the card and try to "break" it whenever I can.
Hellkite Charger is kinda meh and I'd be willing to cut him as well, but I think right now the second Wildfire needs to go simply because of it's lack of popularity. Hellkite Charger at least gets played. And Kiki Jiki is a fan favorite here, so I don't expect it to leave any time in the foreseeable future.
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With that said, I don't know that it'd be Frost Titan. To quote another regular from my cube crew, "I wasn't sure about this guy to begin with, but he's been pretty ****ing awesome." Titan has a ton of popularity here, so I can't imagine he'd be cut. I think I'd probably cut Palinchron if I had to cut a finisher.
And Wake Thrasher is a popular card here as well. For us blue is a lot more than just control or a splash in aggressive or midrange decks. Cards like Wake Thrasher show up in Bant, UW Skies (I know he doesn't fly), and Grixis decks all the time here.
I'm a firm believer in catering to your group (to a point). If my group loves a card and keeping it in doesn't seem to unbalance the cube or make me feel like I'm keeping a terrible card in because one guy likes it, then I'm fine with it (which is the case for the blue finisher suite and Wake Thrasher). The same for cards that my group tends to shy away from. They don't really like Wildfire or actively seek the Wildfire deck, so having two copies is definitely overkill.
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I would recommend cutting:
-Frantic Search or Stifle instead of Repeal
-Aftershock, Chaos Warp, Words of War, Hellkite Charger, or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker instead of Keldon Champion and Burning of Xinye
-Caller of the Claw, Hurricane, or Viridian Zealot instead of Basking Rootwalla
(list not current)
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(list is always current)
Definitely this.
Well, Stifle is another fan favorite, so it's probably not going anywhere. Frantic Search could possibly get the axe over Repeal, though. I'll bring that up at the next cube session.
As I've said, BoX is gone and I'm not sad about it at all. My group doesn't really play the Wildfire deck and aren't big fans of the card or the archetype. I like it, but there's no sense including two copies of a card just for one guy. I think one copy of Wildfire is sufficient.
I think Aftershock is a 360 staple, so that's not going anywhere. I know that's a touchy dead horse, so I won't go further into that one. Chaos Warp has been incredibly fun and awesome and probably the most story inducing card the cube has seen in a long while. Words of War has been great and has won me plenty of games based solely on the back of that one card alone. Kiki Jiki is another fan favorite that's probably not going anywhere. I realize he's not the most powerful card, but he's a lot of fun and gets a lot of laughs out of my group when he's in play. Hellkite Charger could possibly go over Keldon Champion, though. He's fairly boring. I'll bring that one up as well.
I have no problems losing any of those cards, so I'll bring this one up too. I replaced Basking Rootwalla because it felt like the most similar swap.
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i think your philosophy about cube design is spot on and i find myself wanting to cube with you yet again.
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I feel like I've already defended the BoX cut enough at this point, that I shouldn't need to defend it again. I'll just keep it short and say, my crew doesn't dig on the Wildfire deck so two Wildfires is overkill.
I could go either way on Repeal. I like the card and I'm open to another cut, as long as it's not a card that my crew really enjoys drafting (like my current blue finisher suite, Wake Thrasher, or Stifle).
I thought you'd be the one to have a problem with the Waterfront Bouncer cut. I'll once again quote a friend to defend that cut. "What's this guy still doing here? Get him the **** out." Granted, that's just one person's opinion, but the Bouncer goes late quite often and, to be honest, I can't remember the last time he was even main decked, let alone used to success. He's not a popular card here, so he got the axe.
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Also I made this tiny change today:
Hex Parasite -> Shuko
I originally took Shuko out for the Parasite, but as it turns out, Parasite sucks dong, so back in Shuko goes. It's not amazing but it's a decent aggro card and can often get in an extra 3-4 damage over the course of the game. It's certainly better than Hex Parasite. Maybe ISD (why is it not INN?) will give us a good cheap artifact that can replace Shuko.
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I'll respond to (half of) this with a quote from just a few posts above:
As for the rest, I've already stated that Stifle is a fan favorite here and sees a lot of play. It's hardly ever not useful and can often be a complete blowout. We've all grown quite fond of it.
Sea Gate Oracle and Vesuvan Shapeshifter are both cards that I like a lot more than Repeal. I think Repeal is good, but I believe Oracle sees more play and Shaeshifter just went back in. Oracle provides some card selection on a decent body that's good for midrange and control decks against aggro. I'm not completely against cutting Shapeshifter (he's been out and back in before), but he's been fairly solid this time around and I'd like to give him more time to perform.
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Kami of Ancient Law -> Cloistered Youth
Scepter of Dominance -> Fiend Hunter
Cloudgoat Ranger -> Geist-Honored Monk
The only change there that I think might raise some eye brows is the cut of Cloudgoat Ranger. We discussed that one quite a bit and maybe you can give us points that we didn't think of. On an empty board, Cloudgoat is better. When my board is empty, Cloudgoat can be better. I really think if the Monk will usually come down as a 5/5 or greater, then the vigilance might prove to be better than the possible flying.
Thirst For Knowledge -> Forbidden Alchemy
Inkwell Leviathan -> Ludevic's Test Subject
Stifle -> Snapcaster Mage
Thieving Magpie -> Sturmgeist
Thrashing Wumpus -> Bloodgift Demon
Blind Creeper -> Diregraf Ghoul
Black Knight -> Vampire Interloper
Yawgmoth's Bargain -> Liliana of the Veil
Puncture Blast -> Brimstone Volley
Banefire -> Devil's Play
Dwarven Blastminer -> Reckless Waif
Gathan Raiders -> Instigator Gang
Hellkite Charger -> Kruin Outlaw
Caller of the Claw -> Bramblecrush
Hurricane -> Garruk Relentless
Terastodon -> Moldgraf Monstrosity
I'm not sure on Terastodon vs Monstrosity. Seven mana vs eight mana and trample vs making 9 power worth of vanilla guys. I don't know. Give me opinions, cube forumites.
Blazing Specter -> Olivia Voldaren
Enemy Filters -> Enemy Duals
I'm thinking on this one too. Feel free to look at my wild card lands and tell me where you think the m11/12/INN duals would be a better option. I'm also curious about the Scars duals.
Anyway, that's that. Opinions are welcome and wanted!
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