Hi MagicFever. Your cube looks really sweet and your OP is awesome. You obviously put a lot of work into it. Great work!
Sol Ring feels strange in an unpowered cube. It's more broken than any mox, or really any card at all.
The pssible changes you brought up: I think the red 1-drops are fairly interchangeable. Just run one or the other according to your own preferences and you can't really go wrong.
I prefer Yosei over Elesh Norn though. The difference between 6 and 7 mana is quite big, it can mean casting your finisher several turns earlier. Also, while Elesh has a tremendous impact (it's pretty impossible to lose by creatures with her out), Yosei's LTB trigger should not be underestimated. Often it means 'you lose whether you have an answer or not'.
I also prefer Yosei to Norn, unless you're running a particularly large amount of token support. Saying that it's only a "fog" after it dies is a bit disingenuous, as it's more like a Time Walk than anything else. They still get to draw a card, but pretty much all of their permanents will be tapped and remain tapped. ANd the difference between 6 and 7 mana is a lot, especially outside of green. That being said, I wouldn't run either at 360. There are enough better 5+cc cards in that color, and one 6cc creature is enough (which should undoubtedly be Sun Titan).
I echo Fredo's sentiments regarding Sol Ring. It felt weird in my cube before I put power in it. It was literally the case that whomever drafted Sol Ring won any game it showed up in. At least in a powered environment a Mox can help you keep up, and the appearance of a fast mana blowout becomes fairly common so that people don't feel as cheated over them. That was not the case with Sol Ring in my unpowered list. Besides taking fast mana away from colorless gives green a monopoly on a very powerful strategy.
I also don't see the need for Elesh Norn in a 360 list (though my group has asked for it in my 450 list), but a powered environment is a little different than an unpowered so it might fit just fine. I would heed wtwlf's words though about the difference between 6 and 7 mana though, and really watch for when that matters with Elesh Norn.
Aside from all that, the cube looks sweet. These are the only things I see.
-I would get Cloudgoat back in there for another test run. That guy is a total house, and once he starts seeing play his popularity will pick up. I think showing how good unpopular cards are is a cube manager's responsibility to his or her playgroup if they really are that good.
-Time Spiral is one of my favorite blue cards of all time. Upheaval is better yes, but I don't think having another six cost blue spell is so detrimental like it might be in red, and you have a fair number of redundant utility cards that it could replace. Besides counter-burn lives and dies on the ability to refill its hand and Time Spiral is the best of the bunch for that. It can also put you right back into a game you would undoubtedly lose otherwise.
-The last thing is that I would keep a very close eye on how aggro performs without Stax or Tanglewire. Keeping the pace of the game in the early stages is important for aggro's survival in such a bomby metagame.
If you don't want to get rid of Yosei, cut Calciderm. White has an endless supply of 4C spells.
Re Time Spiral: depends on what you're trying to push. I would say Morphling is a safe cut. I also think Psionic Blast can go, but you might want it for faster decks. If you want to cut more controllish cards, I think Ancestral Visions & Jace 3 could go. Jace 3 is probably stronger than Time Spiral, but also much less interactive.
Re: Tanglewire/Smokestacks. The cards which stand out to me as weaker than Tanglewire are Bonehoard, Mind Stone, Masticore, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle/Revoker. Cutting one of the Needles could be a good idea because they are redundant effects. Cutting one of the other cards helps you push aggro decks harder. Monitor Crucible as well - if it's not working for your group then it's quite an easy cut. On the other hand, it helps you when you have to sacrifice lands...
Upheaval is much better than Time Spiral, and if you don't want another 6cc blue card that's fine. We cut Time Spiral from my powered 360 like a month or two ago and we've been happy with it.
Decks that play Time Spiral will usually have more cards in hand than their opposing deck anyway, so you're actually getting card disadvantage a lot of times when you cast Time Spiral.
I know a lot of people around here love Time Spiral, but we've found giving your opponent a fresh grip (plus the card they draw for the turn) can be very detrimental, particularly when you're a control deck trying to stabilize at low life.
It was getting boarded out / not played in the maindeck far too often to justify being in the cube any longer. We're much happier with our current blue configuration.
I would play it before Psionic Blast and Morphling though.
Time Spiral is absurdly powerful, even when it's card disadvantage. Being able to have the first crack at a fresh seven is just so sick in this environment. There's probably no card I'd rather play as the last spell from my hand than Time Spiral.
I'd cut Psionic Blast for it. It's a higher CMC than the Blast, but it's okay for blue to have a pair of high cc spells in the cube. Even at this size.
There's probably no card I'd rather play as the last spell from my hand than Time Spiral.
You won't always have that luxury, especially as Time Spiral decks are blue (and most likely more controlling in nature).
Your opponent will likely have zero cards in hand as well, so even if you cast it as the last card in your hand, you're still only breaking even on CA. Sure, you get first crack at it, but unless you win immediately or severely hamper your opponent from playing spells on his next turn, your opponent is going to be a card up on you and going to have "second crack" at all the cards you just gave him.
And that's if you're at card parity when you cast it, if you have more cards in hand than your opponent does you're actually giving him card advantage.
Yeah, Sol Ring is more broken than the other two because it untaps all on its own giving you such a tempo boost. While the others give you a greater single turn tempo boost, if that boost is answered, they steal tempo in order to provide it again later. Sol Ring doesn't do that.
As for Time Spiral, the great thing about it, is that once you have six mana to cast it, you are getting into the part of the game where your spells are trumping anything a faster deck can produce if you're not there already, so giving your opponent a fresh seven is not that big of a deal because your seven are more powerful. Also, cube is very answer dependent toward the late game, and in our experience, TS finds that answer you need more often than it doesn't.
I would keep Psionic Blast personally because it is a unique effect in blue and you run a lot of walkers. I'd cut Ancestral Visions personally.
For Stax and Tangle Wire - Bonehoard and (Sol Ring) or Spellskite.
The thing is I an relatively new to Cube and I honestly am not sure which decks exactly want the Time Spiral.
As I didnt even include Mana Vault and Grim Monolith for the reason that they are too broken in my opinion maybe it is a bit inconstistant to leave Sol Ring in the cube
Any blue deck outside of the rare UX aggro wants Time Spiral. I've found that spell to be broken in half. It almost never matters if you get card disadavantage with it. You have a handful of cards and the mana to play them. That's usually enough. Even if you can't drop a bunch of business,
Yes, especially since as good as Vault and Monolith are Sol Ring is much better.
I'd cut Bonehoard for sure. It's good, but its BCS is not as good as Mimic Vat's and it doesn't have the utility of Needle. Mimic Vat can do some really disgusting things (ever get Avalance Riders or Deranged Hermit under it--sick!). Pithing Needle is similar to Revoker but they do slightly different things and usually go in different decks. The ability to shut down planeswalkers, man-lands, other utility lands, Survival, Nightmare, and a host of other cards for just 1 mana should not be underestimated. I'd run both of them at 360 probably.
The Hunter just seems so great in midrange/control that I will cut Sarkhan Vol for him. I think he is the only poosible cut in my RG section and adding a 4 drop means I had to cut a 4 drop.
For Smokestack I want cut either Bonehoard, Mimic Vat or Pithing Needle. Personally I like the Bonehoard the most out of this three. I choose the Needle cause I already have Phyrexian Revoker. But the main question here is: Is Mimic Vat even good enough for 360?
As suggested I give Cloudgoat Ranger another try and cut the Eleh Norn for it leaving white with "just" Sun Titan as 6cc+ fatty.
Thoughts?
Mimic Vat is really good (quite a bit better than bonehoard IMO). I'd cut the Bonehoard of those.
Ranger is much stronger and more flexible than Eleh. You should find that to be a nice upgrade.
1. I like the 1-drop more than the land. The land messes with your curve entering the battlefield tapped while providing no immediate effect, and can do so detrimentally if you need that red. While goblin Patrol can also mess with your curve, it will only ever do it once requiring no further investment after the echo to give you a 2-power beater. That is more valuable to a deck that wants to end the game right now as aggro does.
2. Yeah, makes sense.
3. I think you could stand to cut a finisher for the Geists. You have six of them not including Treachery.
I'd probably cut Kira rather than any of those cards to fit in the Geist. If I had to cut one, it would likely be Sphinx.
I'd keep the 1-drop because aggro need it more, but I'd try to keep both. How have Reckless Waif, Chandra the Firebrand, and Searing Blaze been working? I think I'd rather cut one of those.
Saga block is probably the most powerful set/s ever released, and 16 cards have been banned (time spiral is one) and a bunch in standard which was and imo is still unheard of. You are usually safe playing saga cards unless youre concerned about them being TOO good I guess.
goblin patrol is so outdated and again imo is cube garbage.
Let me know how lingering souls is because I am not wanting to cut mortify or desolation angel yet
I think it was wtwlf that went over some good points about keiga not being the ideal finisher and not doing what you would expect out of your 6 drop blue finisher to do. the three blue cards seem just ok and I would play according to your preference on that one. I like morphing for historical value but thats just me
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1. Umezawa's Jitte: Same response as I had in Wtwlf's thread. It's jitte.
2. Pernicious Deed: Probably the strongest multicolored card. And one of two that I'm willing to first pick.
3. Steppe Lynx The third best card is a much harder pick than 1 and 2. There is no strong winner so I fall back on my love of drafting white agro.
Also you list your cube as Guild in your cube summary but list it as [t] (traditional) in your tags.
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Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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You take a two color card over the second most powerful artifact in the cube? I rather keep my options open and take the (IMO) stronger card at the same time.
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I've never minded grabbing a multicolour card early in cube. Colours are a bit more easy to fix and splashes are a breeze, so I have no issues committing to a powerful card like deed early
@MF:
It looks like you're on the guild system, rather than traditional
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
1. Jitte. No surprise here!
2. Pernicious Deed - Just love the card. Great in rock and great in colorful control decks.
3. Miscalculation - Really unsure about this pick, but it was between Forbid and Miscalc for me because I love blue. Blistering Firecat is also an option to go into red heavy aggro.
1. Umezawa's Jitte: Jitte is Jitte. It's a top5 cube card.
2. Pernicious Deed: I love The Rock and this is one of the best cards for it.
3. Troll Ascetic: Tough choices for third card, but I love this creature. It's hard to get rid of and is good in almost any green deck.
Use the top 20 lists to find out what the top 5 cards are in each section, and ask eidolon what your 5 most unusual inclusions are in each section. That will answer it for you.
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CubeTutor MagicFever Unpowered Cube
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
Sol Ring feels strange in an unpowered cube. It's more broken than any mox, or really any card at all.
The pssible changes you brought up: I think the red 1-drops are fairly interchangeable. Just run one or the other according to your own preferences and you can't really go wrong.
I prefer Yosei over Elesh Norn though. The difference between 6 and 7 mana is quite big, it can mean casting your finisher several turns earlier. Also, while Elesh has a tremendous impact (it's pretty impossible to lose by creatures with her out), Yosei's LTB trigger should not be underestimated. Often it means 'you lose whether you have an answer or not'.
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I also don't see the need for Elesh Norn in a 360 list (though my group has asked for it in my 450 list), but a powered environment is a little different than an unpowered so it might fit just fine. I would heed wtwlf's words though about the difference between 6 and 7 mana though, and really watch for when that matters with Elesh Norn.
Aside from all that, the cube looks sweet. These are the only things I see.
-I would get Cloudgoat back in there for another test run. That guy is a total house, and once he starts seeing play his popularity will pick up. I think showing how good unpopular cards are is a cube manager's responsibility to his or her playgroup if they really are that good.
-Time Spiral is one of my favorite blue cards of all time. Upheaval is better yes, but I don't think having another six cost blue spell is so detrimental like it might be in red, and you have a fair number of redundant utility cards that it could replace. Besides counter-burn lives and dies on the ability to refill its hand and Time Spiral is the best of the bunch for that. It can also put you right back into a game you would undoubtedly lose otherwise.
-The last thing is that I would keep a very close eye on how aggro performs without Stax or Tanglewire. Keeping the pace of the game in the early stages is important for aggro's survival in such a bomby metagame.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
If you don't want to get rid of Yosei, cut Calciderm. White has an endless supply of 4C spells.
Re Time Spiral: depends on what you're trying to push. I would say Morphling is a safe cut. I also think Psionic Blast can go, but you might want it for faster decks. If you want to cut more controllish cards, I think Ancestral Visions & Jace 3 could go. Jace 3 is probably stronger than Time Spiral, but also much less interactive.
Re: Tanglewire/Smokestacks. The cards which stand out to me as weaker than Tanglewire are Bonehoard, Mind Stone, Masticore, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle/Revoker. Cutting one of the Needles could be a good idea because they are redundant effects. Cutting one of the other cards helps you push aggro decks harder. Monitor Crucible as well - if it's not working for your group then it's quite an easy cut. On the other hand, it helps you when you have to sacrifice lands...
Decks that play Time Spiral will usually have more cards in hand than their opposing deck anyway, so you're actually getting card disadvantage a lot of times when you cast Time Spiral.
I know a lot of people around here love Time Spiral, but we've found giving your opponent a fresh grip (plus the card they draw for the turn) can be very detrimental, particularly when you're a control deck trying to stabilize at low life.
It was getting boarded out / not played in the maindeck far too often to justify being in the cube any longer. We're much happier with our current blue configuration.
I would play it before Psionic Blast and Morphling though.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
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I'd cut Psionic Blast for it. It's a higher CMC than the Blast, but it's okay for blue to have a pair of high cc spells in the cube. Even at this size.
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You won't always have that luxury, especially as Time Spiral decks are blue (and most likely more controlling in nature).
Your opponent will likely have zero cards in hand as well, so even if you cast it as the last card in your hand, you're still only breaking even on CA. Sure, you get first crack at it, but unless you win immediately or severely hamper your opponent from playing spells on his next turn, your opponent is going to be a card up on you and going to have "second crack" at all the cards you just gave him.
And that's if you're at card parity when you cast it, if you have more cards in hand than your opponent does you're actually giving him card advantage.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
As for Time Spiral, the great thing about it, is that once you have six mana to cast it, you are getting into the part of the game where your spells are trumping anything a faster deck can produce if you're not there already, so giving your opponent a fresh seven is not that big of a deal because your seven are more powerful. Also, cube is very answer dependent toward the late game, and in our experience, TS finds that answer you need more often than it doesn't.
I would keep Psionic Blast personally because it is a unique effect in blue and you run a lot of walkers. I'd cut Ancestral Visions personally.
For Stax and Tangle Wire - Bonehoard and (Sol Ring) or Spellskite.
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Any blue deck outside of the rare UX aggro wants Time Spiral. I've found that spell to be broken in half. It almost never matters if you get card disadavantage with it. You have a handful of cards and the mana to play them. That's usually enough. Even if you can't drop a bunch of business,
Yes, especially since as good as Vault and Monolith are Sol Ring is much better.
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Mimic Vat is really good (quite a bit better than bonehoard IMO). I'd cut the Bonehoard of those.
Ranger is much stronger and more flexible than Eleh. You should find that to be a nice upgrade.
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1. I like the 1-drop more than the land. The land messes with your curve entering the battlefield tapped while providing no immediate effect, and can do so detrimentally if you need that red. While goblin Patrol can also mess with your curve, it will only ever do it once requiring no further investment after the echo to give you a 2-power beater. That is more valuable to a deck that wants to end the game right now as aggro does.
2. Yeah, makes sense.
3. I think you could stand to cut a finisher for the Geists. You have six of them not including Treachery.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I'd probably cut Kira rather than any of those cards to fit in the Geist. If I had to cut one, it would likely be Sphinx.
I'd keep the 1-drop because aggro need it more, but I'd try to keep both. How have Reckless Waif, Chandra the Firebrand, and Searing Blaze been working? I think I'd rather cut one of those.
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goblin patrol is so outdated and again imo is cube garbage.
Let me know how lingering souls is because I am not wanting to cut mortify or desolation angel yet
I think it was wtwlf that went over some good points about keiga not being the ideal finisher and not doing what you would expect out of your 6 drop blue finisher to do. the three blue cards seem just ok and I would play according to your preference on that one. I like morphing for historical value but thats just me
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K2solbri's 450 Card UN-powered Cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=388456
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2. Pernicious Deed: Probably the strongest multicolored card. And one of two that I'm willing to first pick.
3. Steppe Lynx The third best card is a much harder pick than 1 and 2. There is no strong winner so I fall back on my love of drafting white agro.
Also you list your cube as Guild in your cube summary but list it as [t] (traditional) in your tags.
Calvin and Hobbes
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Thread title looks good! Congratulations on being the first non-mod to change to the new standard
1. Pernicious Deed
2. Umezawa's Jitte
3. Sinkhole
4. Forbid
5. Trygon Predator
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Calvin and Hobbes
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@MF:
It looks like you're on the guild system, rather than traditional
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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2. Pernicious Deed - Just love the card. Great in rock and great in colorful control decks.
3. Miscalculation - Really unsure about this pick, but it was between Forbid and Miscalc for me because I love blue. Blistering Firecat is also an option to go into red heavy aggro.
@360 cards your cube is small enough where blue based agro begins to have a chance to work.
Cards you want to look at
Calvin and Hobbes
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2. Pernicious Deed: I love The Rock and this is one of the best cards for it.
3. Troll Ascetic: Tough choices for third card, but I love this creature. It's hard to get rid of and is good in almost any green deck.
HM to Needle and Forbid.
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2. Deed. Super-powerful removal spell.
3. Needle. Colorless answer to ...everything.
HM: Forbid. One of the nastiest counterspells.
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!