gifts usually searches for answers and power isn't about answers, really. i can see it improving a little because if you have time walk or ancestral recall in your gifts choices, you're more likely to get the two cards you actually want, but you could achieve that by drafting more duplicate effects or being clever about what you search up when you play the card anyway. i don't think adding power changes the card much at all.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I need to try out Timetwister, and Jace's Inginuity
I am comfortable putting it on the bench to get a feel for different card draw.
If you're going for pure power, which many people seem to in this forum, you've got to keep Gifts. If Gifts isn't amazing for you, power or not, it's probably because you're not playing it to full potential.
What I can get behind is benching a card that's getting stale. If your group is getting sick of Gifts, it seems fine to let it sit out for a while.
Equally, you would never cut FOF for Jace's Ingenuity on power level. But if you're just sick of splitting cards into piles you can take a break from it.
I think maybe you're nuts because it honestly hasn't been better than it was prior to adding power. It's not broken, it's just really good. Blue is going to be the most powerful color no matter what you do. That's just the nature of the beast. Purposely trying to dumb it down by leaving cards in that you know to be less powerful doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Balancing != dumbing down. Decreasing the power level is a fair statement, but dumbing down is not appropriate, IMO.
We have a very vibrant, interactive limited environment where blue is not always the best color like many other cubes. I added a potentially busted draw 7 effect and took out another good spell (though I still stand by my statement that it's been so-so lately). I wasn't about to cut a counterspell, control magic or another utility spell. If I want to add Timetwister, I cannot run it in conjunction with Gifts because I think blue would have too many splashable draw spells which is precisely why blue is so busted. It's the fallback color. If you can't make your deck work, just splash blue for a few draw spells, and a tempo counter or two and you'll get there. I strongly dislike this strategy.
Seriously, go give an average cube to a random group of PTQers at the next PTQ and 6 of 8 will draft blue as a splash. I've seen it a hundred times. It doesn't make for a very good limited environment, and for the past year we have seen an amazing transformation in the way our drafts play out by changing blue's identity. Part of this change was limiting the number of splashable utility and draw spells blue gets (Impulse, Ponder, Gifts Given, Frantic Search, Stroke, Crystal Shard, Collective Restraint, etc.). This forum might not like it because it's something new and requires nerfing the kinds of decks and strategies you guys love. Fact is, if you can't have the green and white decks of the world beat the blue decks without drafting huge bombs like 'Geddon or Survival, or just simply joining them and splashing blue, then you might want to look into changing the way your blue section looks or even doing something like nerfing your manafacts and nonbasics to discourage 3-color decks.
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What I can get behind is benching a card that's getting stale. If your group is getting sick of Gifts, it seems fine to let it sit out for a while.
Great perspective. I don't do it often, but I am a huge fan of benching cards that are stale from overdrafting.
On another note, if I wanted to create the most powerful cube imagineable, I would do it. There is nothing stopping me purchasing the last few pieces of Power I need, adding the benched banned cards and just doing it. Fact is it's not the kind of cube I want to build and it's not the kind of Magic I want to play. I absolutely encourage discussion about power level of cards and whether they should be included. Just be careful that you're not saying to not play Time Warp because it's not as good as Time Walk or not to play Exploration because Fastbond is better.
Including Jace's Ingenuity over Gifts Ungiven is the epitome of "dumbing down", IMO. I don't mean to offend with that and I'm sorry if it does. I don't see that as balance at all. I mean if Gifts was just stupid good and broken and always winning games, I could see an argument for balance here, but you said yourself that wasn't the case at all. So essentially you're taking out a skill intensive draw spell that let's you pick and choose which cards you get for a harder to cast draw 3 with little to no skill involved. I realize that Timetwister is going in for Gifts, but this is really an argument of Gifts vs Ingenuity.
Blue is an exceptionally powerful color in my cube, especially since I run power. With that in mind, though, I've never had a problem where it felt too powerful and dominated each and every draft. Blue is always played, but it doesn't always win. As a matter of fact, I feel like my cube is balanced enough so that each and every color and archetype has an equal chance to win and that's exactly what happens.
Including Jace's Ingenuity over Gifts Ungiven is the epitome of "dumbing down", IMO. I don't mean to offend with that and I'm sorry if it does. I don't see that as balance at all. I mean if Gifts was just stupid good and broken and always winning games, I could see an argument for balance here, but you said yourself that wasn't the case at all. So essentially you're taking out a skill intensive draw spell that let's you pick and choose which cards you get for a harder to cast draw 3 with little to no skill involved. I realize that Timetwister is going in for Gifts, but this is really an argument of Gifts vs Ingenuity.
Blue is an exceptionally powerful color in my cube, especially since I run power. With that in mind, though, I've never had a problem where it felt too powerful and dominated each and every draft. Blue is always played, but it doesn't always win. As a matter of fact, I feel like my cube is balanced enough so that each and every color and archetype has an equal chance to win and that's exactly what happens.
I appreciate your response and I understand where you're coming from. There are a number interactions and decisions involved drafting and casting Gifts that simply don't exist with Inginuity. I get that. What I am saying is that I am perfectly fine with 'dumbing down' a spell to ensure I don't have so much redudancy in the broken draw department. I am testing a potentially busted card (Timetwister), and trying to see what life is like without Gifts. I don't know whether either one of those decisions is right, but it feels right given my current configuration.
In all honesty I don't know if it will make my cube better. From my perspective I couldn't cut a worse draw spell to add a draw 7; I had to cut the better card.
This is the exact opposite of my cube philosophy.
Making changes that don't make the cube better? Cutting the stronger spell instead of the weaker one?
Makes no sense to me.
But hey, that's what makes all cubes different.
Don't make changes to make the cube worse. Don't nerf one color because it's too good. Make changes to the rest of the cube to make it more competitive. And every single cube change... ever... should make the cube better. No exceptions, IMO.
Don't make changes to make the cube worse. Don't nerf one color because it's too good. Make changes to the rest of the cube to make it more competitive. And every single cube change... ever... should make the cube better. No exceptions, IMO.
the thing is, he's not making a "power first" cube. he's deliberately supporting different archetypes that most cubes don't support and he's balancing at a different power level than the rest of us. if i understand his philosophy right, the idea behind dropping a strong card for a strong card wasn't about nerfing blue so much as trying to maintain a particular power level that he is satisfied with in that color.
it's not how i would run my cube, but i understand it and i think it's worthwhile because it allows for a draft environment that's very different from the standard cube but still powerful. if his group was experiencing some kind of major problem, i'd recommend improving the power of the cube over nerfing a part of it, but i don't think that's what's going on here. i can't personally endorse jace's ingenuity over gifts ungiven but the balance of a cube like this is different than the balance of a cube like mine, so i can accept testing out different configurations.
i will say that i don't think blue is actually as overpowered as he thinks it is in a standard cube. but that can also depend on the particular details of the cube and especially on the group drafting it. since blue has traditionally been considered the best color, it wouldn't be surprising that a bunch of experienced constructed players might gravitate toward blue every time. my group isn't actually that fond of blue, oddly enough.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
the thing is, he's not making a "power first" cube. he's deliberately supporting different archetypes that most cubes don't support and he's balancing at a different power level than the rest of us. if i understand his philosophy right, the idea behind dropping a strong card for a strong card wasn't about nerfing blue so much as trying to maintain a particular power level that he is satisfied with in that color.
it's not how i would run my cube, but i understand it and i think it's worthwhile because it allows for a draft environment that's very different from the standard cube but still powerful. if his group was experiencing some kind of major problem, i'd recommend improving the power of the cube over nerfing a part of it, but i don't think that's what's going on here. i can't personally endorse jace's ingenuity over gifts ungiven but the balance of a cube like this is different than the balance of a cube like mine, so i can accept testing out different configurations.
I couldn't have said it better myself:D
Every change I make to the cube is in an effort to make the cube better!
Don't make changes to make the cube worse. Don't nerf one color because it's too good. Make changes to the rest of the cube to make it more competitive. And every single cube change... ever... should make the cube better.
I disagree... sorta. I agree that all changes should make the cube better. However, I do not think that power level should be the only consideration in cube contruction. I would personally be more proud to say, "I've created a challenging and balanced Limited environment" than "I have assembled a pile of the most powerful cards in Magic."
In my (uncommon) cube I have manually balanced colors and archetypes and it's really paid off. It's no longer about who opens more stupidbrokenness; now who wins is consistently determined by skill.
It's no longer about who opens more stupidbrokenness but rather about applying your deckbuilding and play skills.
in a well designed cube that focuses on power, it won't be about who opens more stupid brokenness. i don't think a power oriented cube is necessarily dumber or less skilltesting. all that power has plenty of answers to negate it. i think the "power" cube and the "best limited" cube (to generalize) are both equally worthwhile if managed correctly.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
However, I do not think that power level should be the only consideration in cube contruction.
Neither do I. Nor did I ever say that. I have powerful cards that are out for consistent cards. Or powerful cards that are excluded for cards that perform certain functions or fill certain archetypes.
What I wouldn't do, is cut a stronger card instead of a weaker card because "you don't want blue to get out of control". That's making an intentional change that makes the cube worse. I select the most powerful spells that fit the balance of the cube. And nothing is "out of control".
I understand the theory, I simply don't agree with it.
in a well designed cube that focuses on power, it won't be about who opens more stupid brokenness.
In a streamlined powered cube, sure, the power level is generally high enough to handly the stupid brokenness. In my cube specifically, Skullclamp warped the format to unplayability. That's why I understand when some folks prefer to keep the power level of their cubes more homogeneous by banning cards.
What I wouldn't do, is cut a stronger card instead of a weaker card because "you don't want blue to get out of control". That's making an intentional change that makes the cube worse. I select the most powerful spells that fit the balance of the cube. And nothing is "out of control".
I guess I'm just of a different opinion in this respect. I don't support cutting a stronger card for a weaker one if both are in consideration for the same spot. I do support banning cards to change the balance of the cube. In my experience lowering the power level of the cube (using a small number of carefully selected bannings) can improve the way the cube plays.
Kojiro,
I am fine with benching cards in general. However, the more I think about it, the less I like it in this case. What really gets me twisted about cutting Gifts for Ingenuity isn't the power discrepancy (which I also don't like, but that's a secondary concern). The problem is that you're dropping a more interesting card for one that is, honestly, about as boring as you can get. If your playgroup isn't able to get Gifts to perform as more than a mediocre card, that's all the more reason to leave it in. Getting good with Gifts will make you better players because it's a hard card to use. There is very little play skill involved with Ingenuity.
If you really want to give Ingenuity a try, cut a boring card for it. I suggest Compulsive Research. If you later realize that Gifts is a stronger card than you want in your cube, ban it. But please, replace it with something cool.
In my cube specifically, Skullclamp warped the format to unplayability.
See, I don't understand this. Even in an uncommon cube, there are plenty of answers to Skullclamp. It's a great card, but it's also an easily dealt with card. It also needs a token engine or a bunch of X/1's to be too ridiculous. I can't imagine it ever reaching the point of unplayability, especially when the environment is missing things like Bitterblossom and Elspeth. The way I see it is if a card such as Skullclamp is proving to be an issue, the answer isn't to remove the card, it's to add more answers across the rest of the cube.
Even in an uncommon cube, there are plenty of answers to Skullclamp.
There are loads of answers to BSA at uncommon too, but her inclusion would throw off the balance of the cube. The decks aren't streamlined enough to deal with those hyperpowerful threats. It's a little difficult to explain, but if you had seen it in action you would know what I'm talking about. (Further specifics, if you're interested, should probably be discussed there.)
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Hapless Researcher is the second best U drop ever in my opinion, and I only recently cut him from my own Cube. M10 hurt him a bit - trading with Lions then looting was great - but not too much. Cursecatcher is also pretty good.
Cubed for the first time in a while last night and had a total blast. Drafted WW/r and cleaned house dropping only 1 game all night. Here was what I played:
I was extremely pleased with this deck. Hokori, Dust Drinker was the MVP of the night, sealing me several games. The only card I wasn't super happy with was Soltari Champion which is funny considering half my guys have shadow or some form of evasion. I just didn't feel he was aggresive enough on his own. I might swap him out for Flickerwisp.
I think I could easily come up with 20 white cards in your cube that are weaker than Soltari Champion so I'd find a different cut. Flickerwisp is great though so find room for him.
that doesn't make sense to me. he's a splashable 2/2 (nearly) unblockable guy with an anthem attached for three mana. that's totally awesome. with at least one other creature out he's 3 damage for 3 easy to pay mana, and 2 of that damage is pretty damn guaranteed. you never had him out with one or two other creatures all night? what specifically did he do that made you upset with his performance?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Yeah, even just as an unblockable 3 power attacker for 2W, it would be close to good enough in my opinion. But with a Glorious Anthem attached? Just insane.
Yeah, even just as an unblockable 3 power attacker for 2W, it would be close to good enough in my opinion. But with a Glorious Anthem attached? Just insane.
there would need to be one more creature out before it (essentially) dealt 3 damage for 3 mana. it's a 2/2.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
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If you're going for pure power, which many people seem to in this forum, you've got to keep Gifts. If Gifts isn't amazing for you, power or not, it's probably because you're not playing it to full potential.
What I can get behind is benching a card that's getting stale. If your group is getting sick of Gifts, it seems fine to let it sit out for a while.
Equally, you would never cut FOF for Jace's Ingenuity on power level. But if you're just sick of splitting cards into piles you can take a break from it.
We have a very vibrant, interactive limited environment where blue is not always the best color like many other cubes. I added a potentially busted draw 7 effect and took out another good spell (though I still stand by my statement that it's been so-so lately). I wasn't about to cut a counterspell, control magic or another utility spell. If I want to add Timetwister, I cannot run it in conjunction with Gifts because I think blue would have too many splashable draw spells which is precisely why blue is so busted. It's the fallback color. If you can't make your deck work, just splash blue for a few draw spells, and a tempo counter or two and you'll get there. I strongly dislike this strategy.
Seriously, go give an average cube to a random group of PTQers at the next PTQ and 6 of 8 will draft blue as a splash. I've seen it a hundred times. It doesn't make for a very good limited environment, and for the past year we have seen an amazing transformation in the way our drafts play out by changing blue's identity. Part of this change was limiting the number of splashable utility and draw spells blue gets (Impulse, Ponder, Gifts Given, Frantic Search, Stroke, Crystal Shard, Collective Restraint, etc.). This forum might not like it because it's something new and requires nerfing the kinds of decks and strategies you guys love. Fact is, if you can't have the green and white decks of the world beat the blue decks without drafting huge bombs like 'Geddon or Survival, or just simply joining them and splashing blue, then you might want to look into changing the way your blue section looks or even doing something like nerfing your manafacts and nonbasics to discourage 3-color decks. Great perspective. I don't do it often, but I am a huge fan of benching cards that are stale from overdrafting.
On another note, if I wanted to create the most powerful cube imagineable, I would do it. There is nothing stopping me purchasing the last few pieces of Power I need, adding the benched banned cards and just doing it. Fact is it's not the kind of cube I want to build and it's not the kind of Magic I want to play. I absolutely encourage discussion about power level of cards and whether they should be included. Just be careful that you're not saying to not play Time Warp because it's not as good as Time Walk or not to play Exploration because Fastbond is better.
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Blue is an exceptionally powerful color in my cube, especially since I run power. With that in mind, though, I've never had a problem where it felt too powerful and dominated each and every draft. Blue is always played, but it doesn't always win. As a matter of fact, I feel like my cube is balanced enough so that each and every color and archetype has an equal chance to win and that's exactly what happens.
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This is the exact opposite of my cube philosophy.
Making changes that don't make the cube better? Cutting the stronger spell instead of the weaker one?
Makes no sense to me.
But hey, that's what makes all cubes different.
Don't make changes to make the cube worse. Don't nerf one color because it's too good. Make changes to the rest of the cube to make it more competitive. And every single cube change... ever... should make the cube better. No exceptions, IMO.
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the thing is, he's not making a "power first" cube. he's deliberately supporting different archetypes that most cubes don't support and he's balancing at a different power level than the rest of us. if i understand his philosophy right, the idea behind dropping a strong card for a strong card wasn't about nerfing blue so much as trying to maintain a particular power level that he is satisfied with in that color.
it's not how i would run my cube, but i understand it and i think it's worthwhile because it allows for a draft environment that's very different from the standard cube but still powerful. if his group was experiencing some kind of major problem, i'd recommend improving the power of the cube over nerfing a part of it, but i don't think that's what's going on here. i can't personally endorse jace's ingenuity over gifts ungiven but the balance of a cube like this is different than the balance of a cube like mine, so i can accept testing out different configurations.
i will say that i don't think blue is actually as overpowered as he thinks it is in a standard cube. but that can also depend on the particular details of the cube and especially on the group drafting it. since blue has traditionally been considered the best color, it wouldn't be surprising that a bunch of experienced constructed players might gravitate toward blue every time. my group isn't actually that fond of blue, oddly enough.
Every change I make to the cube is in an effort to make the cube better!
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I disagree... sorta. I agree that all changes should make the cube better. However, I do not think that power level should be the only consideration in cube contruction. I would personally be more proud to say, "I've created a challenging and balanced Limited environment" than "I have assembled a pile of the most powerful cards in Magic."
In my (uncommon) cube I have manually balanced colors and archetypes and it's really paid off. It's no longer about who opens more stupid brokenness; now who wins is consistently determined by skill.
in a well designed cube that focuses on power, it won't be about who opens more stupid brokenness. i don't think a power oriented cube is necessarily dumber or less skilltesting. all that power has plenty of answers to negate it. i think the "power" cube and the "best limited" cube (to generalize) are both equally worthwhile if managed correctly.
Neither do I. Nor did I ever say that. I have powerful cards that are out for consistent cards. Or powerful cards that are excluded for cards that perform certain functions or fill certain archetypes.
What I wouldn't do, is cut a stronger card instead of a weaker card because "you don't want blue to get out of control". That's making an intentional change that makes the cube worse. I select the most powerful spells that fit the balance of the cube. And nothing is "out of control".
I understand the theory, I simply don't agree with it.
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In a streamlined powered cube, sure, the power level is generally high enough to handly the stupid brokenness. In my cube specifically, Skullclamp warped the format to unplayability. That's why I understand when some folks prefer to keep the power level of their cubes more homogeneous by banning cards.
I guess I'm just of a different opinion in this respect. I don't support cutting a stronger card for a weaker one if both are in consideration for the same spot. I do support banning cards to change the balance of the cube. In my experience lowering the power level of the cube (using a small number of carefully selected bannings) can improve the way the cube plays.
I don't support this, but I do understand it.
Me either.
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Excellent. I'm glad we've found where we agree.
Kojiro,
I am fine with benching cards in general. However, the more I think about it, the less I like it in this case. What really gets me twisted about cutting Gifts for Ingenuity isn't the power discrepancy (which I also don't like, but that's a secondary concern). The problem is that you're dropping a more interesting card for one that is, honestly, about as boring as you can get. If your playgroup isn't able to get Gifts to perform as more than a mediocre card, that's all the more reason to leave it in. Getting good with Gifts will make you better players because it's a hard card to use. There is very little play skill involved with Ingenuity.
If you really want to give Ingenuity a try, cut a boring card for it. I suggest Compulsive Research. If you later realize that Gifts is a stronger card than you want in your cube, ban it. But please, replace it with something cool.
See, I don't understand this. Even in an uncommon cube, there are plenty of answers to Skullclamp. It's a great card, but it's also an easily dealt with card. It also needs a token engine or a bunch of X/1's to be too ridiculous. I can't imagine it ever reaching the point of unplayability, especially when the environment is missing things like Bitterblossom and Elspeth. The way I see it is if a card such as Skullclamp is proving to be an issue, the answer isn't to remove the card, it's to add more answers across the rest of the cube.
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There are loads of answers to BSA at uncommon too, but her inclusion would throw off the balance of the cube. The decks aren't streamlined enough to deal with those hyperpowerful threats. It's a little difficult to explain, but if you had seen it in action you would know what I'm talking about. (Further specifics, if you're interested, should probably be discussed there.)
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I like the idea of adding another blue 1-drop or two.
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1 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Student of Warfare
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Trooper
1 Kazandu Blademaster
1 Goblin Legionairre
1 Soltari Champion
1 Spectral Procession
1 Thistledown Liege
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Reveillark
1 Karmic Guide
1 Sun Titan
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Burst Lightning
1 Honor the Pure
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Bonesplitter
1 Grafted Wargear
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Land
1 Wasteland
12 Plains
4 Mountain
I was extremely pleased with this deck. Hokori, Dust Drinker was the MVP of the night, sealing me several games. The only card I wasn't super happy with was Soltari Champion which is funny considering half my guys have shadow or some form of evasion. I just didn't feel he was aggresive enough on his own. I might swap him out for Flickerwisp.
Here are my tentative changes for this round:
OUT -> IN
Goblin Sharpshooter -> Ghitu Slinger
Rakka Mar -> Fireslinger
Soltari Champion -> Flickerwisp
There are a couple bigger changes I am going to make in the next couple weeks, but I want to get a few drafts in before I make my final decision.
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I think I could easily come up with 20 white cards in your cube that are weaker than Soltari Champion so I'd find a different cut. Flickerwisp is great though so find room for him.
i would cut something else for sure.
there would need to be one more creature out before it (essentially) dealt 3 damage for 3 mana. it's a 2/2.