I may use a 3rd Llanowar Elves clone. But I won't use one that I consider worse.
i'm not asking about one that's worse, i'm asking about one that's better. so you consider llanowar to be the bottom of the barrel of playable mana guys? you wouldn't drop joraga treespeaker?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
that's not a question that doesn't need to be asked though. would you replace volcanic hammer with a strictly better card? no, you run both.
donald has it, yes.
edit
i'm not asking about one that's worse, i'm asking about one that's better. so you consider llanowar to be the bottom of the barrel? you wouldn't drop joraga treespeaker?
Probably not. I like the balance I've got now. The pair of Llanowar clones, the Treespeaker and the 2 color mana producers are fine. I may include another 1-drop mana guy, and maybe if it was another Llanowar clone. I don't really know. I don't need another Llanowar, because the two are doing fine. If there was another strictly better one printed, I'd probably play all three. It depends on what direction green has moved into by the time they print it.
To sum up:
A worse Llanowar - No.
A 3rd Llanowar - Maybe.
A strictly better Llanowar - Yes.
to wtwlf and calibretto: would you guys drop llanowar or fyndhorn if they printed another any color mana guy or two? like a llanowar that tapped for any color at rare or something?
i'm not asking about one that's worse, i'm asking about one that's better. so you consider llanowar to be the bottom of the barrel of playable mana guys? you wouldn't drop joraga treespeaker?
Treespeaker serves a different role as a mana dork. Five mana on turn three. If a strictly better Llanowar that tapped for any color was released, I'd have to really weigh my green section. I might take out Basking Rootwalla or something similar, but really, I don't think a sixth mana dork is needed. I'd most likely end up taking out Llanowar or Fyndhorn elves. It would be a conversation I'd have to have with my crew though.
It's been a while! I've been away with work priorities and Legacy testing. I Had an absolute blast at the GP. Started the day off with a loss and proceeded to win the next 6 rounds with my Survival deck. I then lost the next two rounds to combo decks. After that I made some awesome purchases including a Beta Timetwister (which I will run over Time Spiral, if at all ;)), and all of the cards needed to update my cube.
This update is a result of the suggestions of everyone in the thread as well as my cube group and some thoughts from cubers all over the country at the GP (I did a good deal of cube drafting with other cubes over the weekend). Some ideas I decided to run with, others I have set aside for when I am focusing on other sections and strategies. Thoughts and comments are much appreciated! The original post has not been updated. I need sleep and will take care of it tomorrow! Without further ado, the updates:
OUT -> IN
This update was to intentionally make green better. In doing so I added 2 extra green cards and subtraced one from each of the multicolor and artifact sections.
I like every card you're putting in more than every card you're taking out, so excellent update.
Just out of curiosity, why would you include Timetwister over Time Spiral? I run both and, honestly, I've found Spiral to be at least twice as good as Timetwister. The ability to untap and have all of your mana open when you draw the cards is killer. Timetwister is pretty nuts, but Time Spiral has been absolutely busted here.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Timetwister is the better card in some situations, particularly in decks that aren't heavy blue. It's amazing in a R/u aggro/burn deck for example (it's another Wheel of Fortune)
I expected the exact responses I got regarding adding one over the other. Had I had more time last night, I would have included a more detailed reasoning as to why.
I absolutely agree that Time Spiral is probably the more powerful card in more situations; I just don't think it's the appropriate card right now. I really like the Splashability of Twister and it's applications in aggro decks as an early refueler. I think for my cube Timetwister gets the nod. Keep in mind I haven't added it yet.
I had a long discussion about this card with a couple guys from Indiana at the GP. There were a number of reasons why their group liked it and it was enough for me to at least give it a spin. To be honest, there's nothing all that much better in the red control/mid-range spot besides Hoarding Dragon. Has anyone tried him?
Magma Phoenix is pretty bad. If you really want a second sweeper on a stick, Caldera Hellion is better, because you get the effect without it dying, and you're not paying 5 mana for a 3/3 flying. Crater Hellion is of course much better than both, but ya.
Magma Phoenix is pretty bad. If you really want a second sweeper on a stick, Caldera Hellion is better, because you get the effect without it dying, and you're not paying 5 mana for a 3/3 flying. Crater Hellion is of course much better than both, but ya.
Man, all these great updates and that's all ya have to say?
I think the Phoenix will be a 4-6cc placeholder until Scars comes out. I am just not blown away by the alternatives, really.
Good changes overall! Everyone else seems to have hit on other cards that are better than Magma Phoenix. I thought about that bird for a bit, but I couldn't think of any deck that is going to want him over any of the other cards mentioned here.
Also, removing Momentary Blink? I don't like that change at all. I think its value has increased since introducing all these M11 cards to the environment. I'll be the first to admit I'm pretty biased toward that card, but I feel like there are other cards that don't do as much that could be cut instead (Pulse of the Fields or Dismantling Blow?).
Good changes overall! Everyone else seems to have hit on other cards that are better than Magma Phoenix. I thought about that bird for a bit, but I couldn't think of any deck that is going to want him over any of the other cards mentioned here.
Also, removing Momentary Blink? I don't like that change at all. I think its value has increased since introducing all these M11 cards to the environment. I'll be the first to admit I'm pretty biased toward that card, but I feel like there are other cards that don't do as much that could be cut instead (Pulse of the Fields or Dismantling Blow?).
I am a little sad to see Blink go as well. I keep forgetting to remove Pulse; it was included in the original OP by mistake. Blink is the kind of card that can come and go quite often. There are cards I'd rather run right now so it's on the bench.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
In all seriousness, I have 1 draw-7 in the cube (Memory Jar), and it has been very solid for us. I like it because it's balanced (especially in a non-powered cube), but still abusable if you have the right deck for it. Bottom line is that I don't know if I want another draw-7 in my cube especially one that is either very cheap (TT), or allows control an incredible amount of reach (TS).
Man, all these great updates and that's all ya have to say?
No, just haven't gotten around to it yet.
..........
Leatherback Baloth -> Great Stable Stag
A wonderful change. Easier casting cost, double protection, uncounterable. Very nice upgrade.
Tattermunge Maniac -> Fyndhorn Elves
This is of course awesome. If the Maniac couldn't block, that would be one thing, but having to attack is rough. Fyndhorn is solid and consistent.
Fellwar Stone -> Natural Order
I don't really like either of these cards. But the Stone would make more decks.
Violent Eruption -> Starstorm
This is a fantastic change. Starstorm is probably the best red control card ever printed.
Slith Firewalker -> Blood Knight
Another great upgrade. Pro white is great so very often, and first strike is bomb with burn spells.
Pulse of the Forge -> Goblin Sharpshooter (Fireslinger will be added, just not for this update)
I like Fireslinger A LOT more than Sharpshooter. I don't like either Pulse or the Goblin for cubes.
Covetous Dragon -> Magma Phoenix (unconventional, but big potential. Really want to test)
Just like above, taking out one sub par card for another. I'd rather add in another Earthquake effect... something that I actually know I'm going to get some value out of.
Ghitu Fire -> Fireball
I like Fireball a lot. Ghitu Fire was almost never played as an instant here. X2R leads for some very low values for X.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain -> Soltari Monk
Wonderful. Out with the narrow, in with the evasion and protection. A total upgrade.
Crovax -> Austere Command
Another good upgrade. Interesting, because they play different roles, but great because the Command is so much better than the Crovax.
Aven Mindcensor -> Soltari Champion
Another great change. Soltari Champion is great. Splashable, evasive and aggressive.
Gale Powdermage -> Kor Sanctifiers
One utility creature for a better utility creature. Good change here too.
Knight of the Holy Nimbus -> Soltari Trooper
Yay! More aggressive splashable evasive beaters. Can't have too many Soltari Troopers in the cube.
Momentary Blink -> Kjeldoran Outpost (sad to see blink go, but excited for the new add)
I like this change a lot. I never liked Blink all that much, but it was occasionally very powerful with stacked damage. Too bad M10 got rid of the only reason why I felt like Blink could maybe hack it in the cube.
Ancient Tomb -> Ghitu Encampment
I love both Tomb and Encampment. I'd probably cut something else for Encampment (I'd put it in red and cut Magma Phoenix) ;).
Ghost Quarter -> Reflecting Pool
This is the best change ever.
Ghastly Demise -> Disfigure (didn't like the first time around, but testing again)
Disfigure rocks. It kills a ton of cube creatures for cheap. Including black targets. And it's a sick combat trick against creatures of any size.
Slaughter Pact -> Bone Shredder
Nice. Abusive ETB effects are clutch. I like Nekrataal a little more, but the single black on this guy is swell. He's bonkers with Sun Titan.
Hit//Run -> Throat Slitter (extremely underrated and happy to bring him off the bench)
Both cards are very meh. Don't care either way.
..........
Hopefully that review is more up to your expectations.
Hopefully that review is more up to your expectations.
Hehe, I was just razzin' ya, but thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! I very well may take your advice and replace Phoenix/Rakka Mar with Ghitu Encampment and keep Tomb. I can't wait to give these new changes a whirl!
Hehe, I was just razzin' ya, but thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! I very well may take your advice and replace Phoenix/Rakka Mar with Ghitu Encampment and keep Tomb. I can't wait to give these new changes a whirl!
Did a 6-man draft (3v3) draft last night. The group was very pleased with all the changes. Here were the 6 decks we drafted:
B/U Aggro
R/W Aggro
R/W Aggro
W/B/u Control
U/g Artifacts
5-Color Green
Gifts Ungiven tabled and we had a long discussion about it afterward. 3 players were in blue and no one thought it would make their deck better. I know that everyone here is in love with Gifts, but it just hasn't been good for us in 100+ drafts. It's much better in a powered cube to the point where I couldn't imagine not running it, but in our environment, it has been completely lackluster.
I've heard all the arguments for Gifts Ungiven, and I've kept it in just on principle of how good it can be. Fact is, in practice it's been bad, and I much prefer to be results oriented in my cuts than just simply theorizing. There are a lot of cards which people have been cutting lately that they never thought they'd cut before (Signets, Slaver, Karoos, etc.). This is one that if you're running an unpowered cube, I think you should look at other options, IMO. If we get more cards to abuse it, our group changes, the color focus shifts, etc. it'll be back, but for now, we're trying out something new!
I personally don't think Gifts Ungives is better in a powered environment than in an unpowered one. I think it's good because it's instant card draw, and because it'll give you two good cards. If you have some of the cards that are insane with it like Genesis or Reanimator strategies it's just even better.
The thing that's a bit weird with this card is that you'll lose two cards as well... I often just picked the 4 counterspells in my deck, and said "here you go" to my opponent. No matter what they choose you'll end up with 2 counterspells in hand. Often enough to seal you that game, even though your only other counterspells are in your grave.
The same is the case with removal spells, creatures, lands, etc. I most often use it this way where I don't really give my opponent a real choice because you'll end up with two spells you need no matter what he does. And if you'll win because of those two spells, Gifts done its job.
Think about Fact or Fiction. It most often gives you 2 cards and puts 3 in the grave. The two cards are very similar in that matter, even though you'll most often get the best of 5 with Fact.
My issue is and has been that the two cards going into your hand are the worst of the 4 cards, and often the two hitting the bin are among your decks best answers. It's how you're able to get 'good' cards in the first place, by putting good cards in the graveyard essentially. I know that it's good in principle but bad in practice. It's time for Gifts to hit the bench. It's not gone forever, just benched for now.
Yeah, if noone will play it you should cut it. But for me it's the second best blue draw spell, coming in right after Fact or Fiction. (Well third if you count Jace #2 as a draw spell).
When I play Gifts Ungiven, I just ignore the fact that two good spells end up in the grave, and focus on the fact that two good spells end up in my hand. That's more than often enough to seal the game for me.
I will reiterate, Gifts is great in principle but not in practice. In my opinion it's nowhere near as good a card as Fact or Fiction 99.9% of the time. It's not a tutor for what you need when you need it unless you happened to have drafted 3-4 redundant effects or some way to really abuse it. It often becomes a very fairly costed draw spell that bins your 2 best cards you search up.
Two of the guys participating in the draft have their own cubes and had cut it long before me. We've all talked about doing it for a while, and I am finally convinced after seeing gifts have literally zero good applications in any of the blue decks we drafted whereas every other draw spell in the cube would have shined.
All this talk about cutting Mirari's Wake is seriously madness! Sometimes I think this is the smartest forum on the internet, and other times it's like cube meets GameFAQs. Unless they actually printed a card which does what Mirari's Wake does, but better, I wouldn't ever consider removing it from the multicolor section. Ever.
Allow me to retort.
All this talk about cutting Gifts Ungiven is seriously madness! Sometimes I think this is the smartest thread on the internet, and other times it's like cube meets GameFAQs. Unless they actually printed a card which does what Gifts Ungiven does, but better, I wouldn't ever consider removing it from the blue section. Ever.
All this talk about cutting Gifts Ungiven is seriously madness! Sometimes I think this is the smartest thread on the internet, and other times it's like cube meets GameFAQs. Unless they actually printed a card which does what Gifts Ungiven does, but better, I wouldn't ever consider removing it from the blue section. Ever.
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Go take a walk bro, you're being obnoxious.
that's not a question that doesn't need to be asked though. would you replace volcanic hammer with a strictly better card? no, you run both.
donald has it, yes.
edit
i'm not asking about one that's worse, i'm asking about one that's better. so you consider llanowar to be the bottom of the barrel of playable mana guys? you wouldn't drop joraga treespeaker?
Probably not. I like the balance I've got now. The pair of Llanowar clones, the Treespeaker and the 2 color mana producers are fine. I may include another 1-drop mana guy, and maybe if it was another Llanowar clone. I don't really know. I don't need another Llanowar, because the two are doing fine. If there was another strictly better one printed, I'd probably play all three. It depends on what direction green has moved into by the time they print it.
To sum up:
A worse Llanowar - No.
A 3rd Llanowar - Maybe.
A strictly better Llanowar - Yes.
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Absolutely.
Treespeaker serves a different role as a mana dork. Five mana on turn three. If a strictly better Llanowar that tapped for any color was released, I'd have to really weigh my green section. I might take out Basking Rootwalla or something similar, but really, I don't think a sixth mana dork is needed. I'd most likely end up taking out Llanowar or Fyndhorn elves. It would be a conversation I'd have to have with my crew though.
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It's been a while! I've been away with work priorities and Legacy testing. I Had an absolute blast at the GP. Started the day off with a loss and proceeded to win the next 6 rounds with my Survival deck. I then lost the next two rounds to combo decks. After that I made some awesome purchases including a Beta Timetwister (which I will run over Time Spiral, if at all ;)), and all of the cards needed to update my cube.
This update is a result of the suggestions of everyone in the thread as well as my cube group and some thoughts from cubers all over the country at the GP (I did a good deal of cube drafting with other cubes over the weekend). Some ideas I decided to run with, others I have set aside for when I am focusing on other sections and strategies. Thoughts and comments are much appreciated! The original post has not been updated. I need sleep and will take care of it tomorrow! Without further ado, the updates:
OUT -> IN
This update was to intentionally make green better. In doing so I added 2 extra green cards and subtraced one from each of the multicolor and artifact sections.
Leatherback Baloth -> Great Stable Stag
Tattermunge Maniac -> Fyndhorn Elves
Fellwar Stone -> Natural Order
Violent Eruption -> Starstorm
Slith Firewalker -> Blood Knight
Pulse of the Forge -> Goblin Sharpshooter (Fireslinger will be added, just not for this update)
Covetous Dragon -> Magma Phoenix (unconventional, but big potential. Really want to test)
Ghitu Fire -> Fireball
Samurai of the Pale Curtain -> Soltari Monk
Crovax -> Austere Command
Aven Mindcensor -> Soltari Champion
Gale Powdermage -> Kor Sanctifiers
Knight of the Holy Nimbus -> Soltari Trooper
Momentary Blink -> Kjeldoran Outpost (sad to see blink go, but excited for the new add)
Ancient Tomb -> Ghitu Encampment
Ghost Quarter -> Reflecting Pool
Ghastly Demise -> Disfigure (didn't like the first time around, but testing again)
Slaughter Pact -> Bone Shredder
Hit//Run -> Throat Slitter (extremely underrated and happy to bring him off the bench)
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Just out of curiosity, why would you include Timetwister over Time Spiral? I run both and, honestly, I've found Spiral to be at least twice as good as Timetwister. The ability to untap and have all of your mana open when you draw the cards is killer. Timetwister is pretty nuts, but Time Spiral has been absolutely busted here.
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and time spiral is definitely better than timetwister.
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I expected the exact responses I got regarding adding one over the other. Had I had more time last night, I would have included a more detailed reasoning as to why.
I absolutely agree that Time Spiral is probably the more powerful card in more situations; I just don't think it's the appropriate card right now. I really like the Splashability of Twister and it's applications in aggro decks as an early refueler. I think for my cube Timetwister gets the nod. Keep in mind I haven't added it yet.
Re: Magma Phoenix
I had a long discussion about this card with a couple guys from Indiana at the GP. There were a number of reasons why their group liked it and it was enough for me to at least give it a spin. To be honest, there's nothing all that much better in the red control/mid-range spot besides Hoarding Dragon. Has anyone tried him?
Thanks for the comments
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I think the Phoenix will be a 4-6cc placeholder until Scars comes out. I am just not blown away by the alternatives, really.
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EDIT: Also Rakka Mar could be seen as a 5 drop if you want to fudge the numbers a little and she's pretty good.
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Also, removing Momentary Blink? I don't like that change at all. I think its value has increased since introducing all these M11 cards to the environment. I'll be the first to admit I'm pretty biased toward that card, but I feel like there are other cards that don't do as much that could be cut instead (Pulse of the Fields or Dismantling Blow?).
I am a little sad to see Blink go as well. I keep forgetting to remove Pulse; it was included in the original OP by mistake. Blink is the kind of card that can come and go quite often. There are cards I'd rather run right now so it's on the bench.
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In all seriousness, I have 1 draw-7 in the cube (Memory Jar), and it has been very solid for us. I like it because it's balanced (especially in a non-powered cube), but still abusable if you have the right deck for it. Bottom line is that I don't know if I want another draw-7 in my cube especially one that is either very cheap (TT), or allows control an incredible amount of reach (TS).
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No, just haven't gotten around to it yet.
..........
A wonderful change. Easier casting cost, double protection, uncounterable. Very nice upgrade.
This is of course awesome. If the Maniac couldn't block, that would be one thing, but having to attack is rough. Fyndhorn is solid and consistent.
I don't really like either of these cards. But the Stone would make more decks.
This is a fantastic change. Starstorm is probably the best red control card ever printed.
Another great upgrade. Pro white is great so very often, and first strike is bomb with burn spells.
I like Fireslinger A LOT more than Sharpshooter. I don't like either Pulse or the Goblin for cubes.
Just like above, taking out one sub par card for another. I'd rather add in another Earthquake effect... something that I actually know I'm going to get some value out of.
I like Fireball a lot. Ghitu Fire was almost never played as an instant here. X2R leads for some very low values for X.
Wonderful. Out with the narrow, in with the evasion and protection. A total upgrade.
Another good upgrade. Interesting, because they play different roles, but great because the Command is so much better than the Crovax.
Another great change. Soltari Champion is great. Splashable, evasive and aggressive.
One utility creature for a better utility creature. Good change here too.
Yay! More aggressive splashable evasive beaters. Can't have too many Soltari Troopers in the cube.
I like this change a lot. I never liked Blink all that much, but it was occasionally very powerful with stacked damage. Too bad M10 got rid of the only reason why I felt like Blink could maybe hack it in the cube.
I love both Tomb and Encampment. I'd probably cut something else for Encampment (I'd put it in red and cut Magma Phoenix) ;).
This is the best change ever.
Disfigure rocks. It kills a ton of cube creatures for cheap. Including black targets. And it's a sick combat trick against creatures of any size.
Nice. Abusive ETB effects are clutch. I like Nekrataal a little more, but the single black on this guy is swell. He's bonkers with Sun Titan.
Both cards are very meh. Don't care either way.
..........
Hopefully that review is more up to your expectations.
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Hehe, I was just razzin' ya, but thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! I very well may take your advice and replace Phoenix/Rakka Mar with Ghitu Encampment and keep Tomb. I can't wait to give these new changes a whirl!
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Sounds good. Let us know how they pan out.
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Did a 6-man draft (3v3) draft last night. The group was very pleased with all the changes. Here were the 6 decks we drafted:
B/U Aggro
R/W Aggro
R/W Aggro
W/B/u Control
U/g Artifacts
5-Color Green
Gifts Ungiven tabled and we had a long discussion about it afterward. 3 players were in blue and no one thought it would make their deck better. I know that everyone here is in love with Gifts, but it just hasn't been good for us in 100+ drafts. It's much better in a powered cube to the point where I couldn't imagine not running it, but in our environment, it has been completely lackluster.
I've heard all the arguments for Gifts Ungiven, and I've kept it in just on principle of how good it can be. Fact is, in practice it's been bad, and I much prefer to be results oriented in my cuts than just simply theorizing. There are a lot of cards which people have been cutting lately that they never thought they'd cut before (Signets, Slaver, Karoos, etc.). This is one that if you're running an unpowered cube, I think you should look at other options, IMO. If we get more cards to abuse it, our group changes, the color focus shifts, etc. it'll be back, but for now, we're trying out something new!
OUT -> IN
Gifts Ungiven -> Timetwister
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The thing that's a bit weird with this card is that you'll lose two cards as well... I often just picked the 4 counterspells in my deck, and said "here you go" to my opponent. No matter what they choose you'll end up with 2 counterspells in hand. Often enough to seal you that game, even though your only other counterspells are in your grave.
The same is the case with removal spells, creatures, lands, etc. I most often use it this way where I don't really give my opponent a real choice because you'll end up with two spells you need no matter what he does. And if you'll win because of those two spells, Gifts done its job.
Think about Fact or Fiction. It most often gives you 2 cards and puts 3 in the grave. The two cards are very similar in that matter, even though you'll most often get the best of 5 with Fact.
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Yeah, if noone will play it you should cut it. But for me it's the second best blue draw spell, coming in right after Fact or Fiction. (Well third if you count Jace #2 as a draw spell).
When I play Gifts Ungiven, I just ignore the fact that two good spells end up in the grave, and focus on the fact that two good spells end up in my hand. That's more than often enough to seal the game for me.
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Two of the guys participating in the draft have their own cubes and had cut it long before me. We've all talked about doing it for a while, and I am finally convinced after seeing gifts have literally zero good applications in any of the blue decks we drafted whereas every other draw spell in the cube would have shined.
Thanks for the feedback, bondafong.
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This is simply false. Gifts is outstanding.
..........
Crossposted from another thread:
Allow me to retort.
All this talk about cutting Gifts Ungiven is seriously madness! Sometimes I think this is the smartest thread on the internet, and other times it's like cube meets GameFAQs. Unless they actually printed a card which does what Gifts Ungiven does, but better, I wouldn't ever consider removing it from the blue section. Ever.
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Let me guess, we've just been playing it wrong...
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Go take a walk bro, you're being obnoxious.
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