Since Arbor Elf came out, I've been kinda keeping an eye on times where it would be better than Fyndhorn and Llanowar. It's pretty close, but I still give the edge to the original Elves, because I like to tap my mana critters after 'Geddon effects.
Agreed, except I opted for Arbor Elf over Fyndhorn. Untapping a dual land is pretty sweet.
But you don't always have a dual land. Sometimes you have a land that produces green and is not a Forest. At that point Fyndhorn is much much better than Arbor Elf.
Since Arbor Elf came out, I've been kinda keeping an eye on times where it would be better than Fyndhorn and Llanowar. It's pretty close, but I still give the edge to the original Elves, because I like to tap my mana critters after 'Geddon effects.
Me too. Even if Arbor Elf is pretty much exactly the same as the other two 90% of the time, there are still those times where it's not. And when it's not, it's just a generic 1/1 dork. And that's not good enough for the cube. Ever.
I consider Arbor Elf a staple. Since his inclusion there has been exactly one time when he couldnt produce mana. Worldwake came out late January right? So thats one time in 6 months where he was bad for us. I think that's consistent enough to warrant his inclusion. Everyone should have at least tested him though.
I consider Arbor Elf a staple. Since his inclusion there has been exactly one time when he couldnt produce mana. Worldwake came out late January right? So thats one time in 6 months where he was bad for us. I think that's consistent enough to warrant his inclusion. Everyone should have at least tested him though.
That's one time too many for me. I only have room for the mana dorks that I'm currently running. Llanowar and Fyndhorn have never not been able to tap for mana. That makes them better. I'd include Arbor if my cube got bigger, but that'd be about it. He's far from 360 staple, IMO.
That's one time too many for me. I only have room for the mana dorks that I'm currently running. Llanowar and Fyndhorn have never not been able to tap for mana. That makes them better. I'd include Arbor if my cube got bigger, but that'd be about it. He's far from 360 staple, IMO.
That actually brings up the question of how many mana dorks does green need? Like would you make room for another functional reprint of Llanowar Elves?
That's one time too many for me. I only have room for the mana dorks that I'm currently running. Llanowar and Fyndhorn have never not been able to tap for mana. That makes them better. I'd include Arbor if my cube got bigger, but that'd be about it. He's far from 360 staple, IMO.
Pretty much this. Llanowar/Fyndhorn always work.
And since I've been keeping track (which is a lot less than 6 months) we've found a lot more than one occasion where I've been tapping my mana elves without forests in play. More like 4 or 5 occasions in the last 3 months alone.
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would you make room for another functional reprint of Llanowar Elves?
Probably not. I don't think I need a 3rd one right now. But I'd be more likely to include it than Arbor Elf if I needed to make room for one or the other.
That's one time too many for me. I only have room for the mana dorks that I'm currently running. Llanowar and Fyndhorn have never not been able to tap for mana. That makes them better. I'd include Arbor if my cube got bigger, but that'd be about it. He's far from 360 staple, IMO.
Well it's not any more inconsistent than Mox Diamond. There has been plenty of hands that i've had to mulligan because of Mox, but on the other hand I have seen Mox do ridiculous things. It's a card I would never cut and it is far less consistent than Arbor Elf. I really can't even imagine how people are reliably casting Arbor Elf without a forest in play. The decks that are running cards like Llanowar Elves and Fyndhorn elves are running plenty of Forests. I think one-drop mana dorks are just so imperative to green that I couldn't ever imagine cutting Arbor Elf when it performs exactly the same as Llanowar or Fyndhorn Elves 99 (or more) games out of 100. It's the same with Mox Diamond if you are running power. Ninety-nine games out of 100 it is going to be worse than a regular Moxen because of the card disadvantage, the other game it might be better because of the fixing; however, unless you have drafters who regularly draft 3+ color decks then the fixing shouldn't be that gigantic of an asset, certainly not enough to justify its conditionality.
That actually brings up the question of how many mana dorks does green need? Like would you make room for another functional reprint of Llanowar Elves?
Absolutely. They would have to print ALOT more Llanowar Elves for me to consider not including them in my list. When was the last time you saw someone construct a green deck and go "This Llanowar Elves just doesn't make the cut." They are seriously good.
I've never had to mulligan a hand because of Mox Diamond. If you're playing it as a land, you're doing it wrong.
When it takes up a spell slot in your deck construction, there's no hand you'd have to mulligan with it in there that you could've kept otherwise. Because it wouldn't have been another land anyways.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I've never had to mulligan a hand because of Mox Diamond. If you're playing it as a land, you're doing it wrong.
When it takes up a spell slot in your deck construction, there's no hand you'd have to mulligan with it in there that you could've kept otherwise. Because it wouldn't have been another land anyways.
Pretty much this. I can't remember ever throwing a hand back because of Mox Diamond. Ever.
I'd only include a third Llanowar copy if my cube got bigger, the same for Arbor Elf. I don't think Arbor Elf is bad, it's just not as good as it's cousins and I don't have room for it.
When it takes up a spell slot in your deck construction, there's no hand you'd have to mulligan with it in there that you could've kept otherwise. Because it wouldn't have been another land anyways.
I'm going to disagree. Note that I never mentioned mana screw as a reason for the mulligan. It's more likely that Diamond floods you than anything. I might consider keeping a 5 lander, but usually not if Mox is in it. In this situation, Mox is the deciding card because it is taking up a gas slot in your deck but fulfills the role of a mana base. There are plenty of times when Mox isn't good and there is no denying that. With a two land hand Mox's advantage is largely negated due to the fact that if you dont topdeck a land you only received an advantage on your first turn at the cost of an entire card. I'm not trying to get into a huge argument about Mox Diamond though, i'm only using it as an example for why cards that are worse than other cards can still be good/amazing in cube. I'm sure most of us here would agree that Swords > Path, but just because you lose a game due to your opponent getting another land doesn't mean Path isn't amazing or needed. I feel the same way about Arbor Elf, I think he is amazing and strongly needed in his color.
I don't think a sixth mana dork is "strongly needed" in green unless the cube is rather large. Arbor Elf is fine, but it's not as good as the other options and it's certainly not a staple.
8 or 10 seems like a ton of overkill. In a 360 card cube I may only be able to find room for four mana dorks. 500 cards makes room for a fifth. 600 might give me room for another. So on and so forth. My 555 card cube only has room for 5 mana dorks. I'd feel like I was cutting some essential green cards if I included more than that.
It reminds me a bit of how many Remove Soul variants to run, since there's approximately a billion (I think either 4 or 5 without exaggeration) or 4 mana 5/5s (Juzam Djinn, Plague Sliver and to an extent, Phyrexian Scuta.)
Granted, I'm not running any (especially not in regular, but not commons either) but it's interesting a discussion.
Gun to my head, I'd probably say I'd play another Llanowar clone. Probably 2, even though green's stupid tight nowadays.
In my 450 I think I would run Birds, Hierarch, 5 Llanowars. Seven seems about right, eight might be one too many.
And I think that's an absolutely ridiculous amount of repetition. What would you possibly cut from a 55 card green section to make room for such a gross abundance of Llanowar variants? Green certainly needs these guys, but I wouldn't sacrifice the quality of the rest of the section to include a billion mana dorks. I'm running 70 cards in my green section now and with five total mana dorks, I feel like I've got more than enough. Adding in any more and I'm taking away great cards that serve a different part of green's purpose in the cube.
I wouldn't cut any of my 1cc or 2cc aggro guys. Neither of the walls. And none of the 2cc utility guys like STE, Rofellos, or the newly added Fauna Shaman. The 3cc midrange guys like Stag and Troll. The utility guys there like Yavimaya Elder or Sex Monkeys aren't going anywhere for a mana dork. And I'm certainly not willing to remove any of the 4cc and higher guys for them. And looking at my spells... There's no way I'm taking out great cards like Sylvan Library or Survival for them. I'm not taking out the ramp spells because they provide me with more than just green mana. Of course Garruk isn't going anywhere, nor is Harmonize or Plow Under. There's literally just not enough room for more than five unless you're playing a larger cube or you're willing to sacrifice a piece of another strategy to make room.
to wtwlf and calibretto: would you guys drop llanowar or fyndhorn if they printed another any color mana guy or two? like a llanowar that tapped for any color at rare or something?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
And I think that's an absolutely ridiculous amount of repetition. What would you possibly cut from a 55 card green section to make room for such a gross abundance of Llanowar variants? Green certainly needs these guys, but I wouldn't sacrifice the quality of the rest of the section to include a billion mana dorks. I'm running 70 cards in my green section now and with five total mana dorks, I feel like I've got more than enough. Adding in any more and I'm taking away great cards that serve a different part of green's purpose in the cube.
I wouldn't cut any of my 1cc or 2cc aggro guys. Neither of the walls. And none of the 2cc utility guys like STE, Rofellos, or the newly added Fauna Shaman. The 3cc midrange guys like Stag and Troll. The utility guys there like Yavimaya Elder or Sex Monkeys aren't going anywhere for a mana dork. And I'm certainly not willing to remove any of the 4cc and higher guys for them. And looking at my spells... There's no way I'm taking out great cards like Sylvan Library or Survival for them. I'm not taking out the ramp spells because they provide me with more than just green mana. Of course Garruk isn't going anywhere, nor is Harmonize or Plow Under. There's literally just not enough room for more than five unless you're playing a larger cube or you're willing to sacrifice a piece of another strategy to make room.
Well i'm already running Birds, Hierarch, Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Arbor, and Treespeaker. So really I would only be adding one mana guy and replacing Arbor and Treespeaker with more Llanowars which I think are better.
to wtwlf and calibretto: would you guys drop llanowar or fyndhorn if they printed another any color mana guy or two? like a llanowar that tapped for any color at rare or something?
Of course.
You're asking if I'd replace Llanowar with a strictly better Llanowar? ...um, yes.
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No we do not, because every time we do, I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone and everything is backwards.
But you don't always have a dual land. Sometimes you have a land that produces green and is not a Forest. At that point Fyndhorn is much much better than Arbor Elf.
Me too. Even if Arbor Elf is pretty much exactly the same as the other two 90% of the time, there are still those times where it's not. And when it's not, it's just a generic 1/1 dork. And that's not good enough for the cube. Ever.
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That's one time too many for me. I only have room for the mana dorks that I'm currently running. Llanowar and Fyndhorn have never not been able to tap for mana. That makes them better. I'd include Arbor if my cube got bigger, but that'd be about it. He's far from 360 staple, IMO.
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That actually brings up the question of how many mana dorks does green need? Like would you make room for another functional reprint of Llanowar Elves?
Pretty much this. Llanowar/Fyndhorn always work.
And since I've been keeping track (which is a lot less than 6 months) we've found a lot more than one occasion where I've been tapping my mana elves without forests in play. More like 4 or 5 occasions in the last 3 months alone.
Probably not. I don't think I need a 3rd one right now. But I'd be more likely to include it than Arbor Elf if I needed to make room for one or the other.
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Well it's not any more inconsistent than Mox Diamond. There has been plenty of hands that i've had to mulligan because of Mox, but on the other hand I have seen Mox do ridiculous things. It's a card I would never cut and it is far less consistent than Arbor Elf. I really can't even imagine how people are reliably casting Arbor Elf without a forest in play. The decks that are running cards like Llanowar Elves and Fyndhorn elves are running plenty of Forests. I think one-drop mana dorks are just so imperative to green that I couldn't ever imagine cutting Arbor Elf when it performs exactly the same as Llanowar or Fyndhorn Elves 99 (or more) games out of 100. It's the same with Mox Diamond if you are running power. Ninety-nine games out of 100 it is going to be worse than a regular Moxen because of the card disadvantage, the other game it might be better because of the fixing; however, unless you have drafters who regularly draft 3+ color decks then the fixing shouldn't be that gigantic of an asset, certainly not enough to justify its conditionality.
Absolutely. They would have to print ALOT more Llanowar Elves for me to consider not including them in my list. When was the last time you saw someone construct a green deck and go "This Llanowar Elves just doesn't make the cut." They are seriously good.
When it takes up a spell slot in your deck construction, there's no hand you'd have to mulligan with it in there that you could've kept otherwise. Because it wouldn't have been another land anyways.
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Pretty much this. I can't remember ever throwing a hand back because of Mox Diamond. Ever.
I'd only include a third Llanowar copy if my cube got bigger, the same for Arbor Elf. I don't think Arbor Elf is bad, it's just not as good as it's cousins and I don't have room for it.
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I'm going to disagree. Note that I never mentioned mana screw as a reason for the mulligan. It's more likely that Diamond floods you than anything. I might consider keeping a 5 lander, but usually not if Mox is in it. In this situation, Mox is the deciding card because it is taking up a gas slot in your deck but fulfills the role of a mana base. There are plenty of times when Mox isn't good and there is no denying that. With a two land hand Mox's advantage is largely negated due to the fact that if you dont topdeck a land you only received an advantage on your first turn at the cost of an entire card. I'm not trying to get into a huge argument about Mox Diamond though, i'm only using it as an example for why cards that are worse than other cards can still be good/amazing in cube. I'm sure most of us here would agree that Swords > Path, but just because you lose a game due to your opponent getting another land doesn't mean Path isn't amazing or needed. I feel the same way about Arbor Elf, I think he is amazing and strongly needed in his color.
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8? 10? I guess I would run at least two more functional elf reprints
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Granted, I'm not running any (especially not in regular, but not commons either) but it's interesting a discussion.
Gun to my head, I'd probably say I'd play another Llanowar clone. Probably 2, even though green's stupid tight nowadays.
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And I think that's an absolutely ridiculous amount of repetition. What would you possibly cut from a 55 card green section to make room for such a gross abundance of Llanowar variants? Green certainly needs these guys, but I wouldn't sacrifice the quality of the rest of the section to include a billion mana dorks. I'm running 70 cards in my green section now and with five total mana dorks, I feel like I've got more than enough. Adding in any more and I'm taking away great cards that serve a different part of green's purpose in the cube.
I wouldn't cut any of my 1cc or 2cc aggro guys. Neither of the walls. And none of the 2cc utility guys like STE, Rofellos, or the newly added Fauna Shaman. The 3cc midrange guys like Stag and Troll. The utility guys there like Yavimaya Elder or Sex Monkeys aren't going anywhere for a mana dork. And I'm certainly not willing to remove any of the 4cc and higher guys for them. And looking at my spells... There's no way I'm taking out great cards like Sylvan Library or Survival for them. I'm not taking out the ramp spells because they provide me with more than just green mana. Of course Garruk isn't going anywhere, nor is Harmonize or Plow Under. There's literally just not enough room for more than five unless you're playing a larger cube or you're willing to sacrifice a piece of another strategy to make room.
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That would give me 3 Llanowars, Birds and Hierarch (plus Treespeaker). Which would be more than enough for my 500 cards.
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Well i'm already running Birds, Hierarch, Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Arbor, and Treespeaker. So really I would only be adding one mana guy and replacing Arbor and Treespeaker with more Llanowars which I think are better.
Of course.
You're asking if I'd replace Llanowar with a strictly better Llanowar? ...um, yes.
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I think he's asking more "Since you need to add this new mana dork because it is better, would you cut Llanowar Elves or something else?"
I may use a 3rd Llanowar Elves clone. But I won't use one that I consider worse.
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