Khans of Tarkir @ 269:
After thinking about the previous picks, I think that Crackling Doom, Sultai Charm and Utter End are the only Type 4 worthy cards. Duneblast is just a Plague Winds variant with a bit more thought.
What else is playable here?
Clever Impostor - It Clones anything. That's pretty much the definition of what you want in a Clone.
Dig Through Time - Solid draw spell. In ways, it is better than some of the Fact or Fiction variants I have running already.
Pearl Lake Ancient - If it had any other ability, I might be interested in this Flash creature. As it stands, not so much.
Empty the Pits - Way too good. EOT Infinite? That breaks one of the rules 2-1 (2 Cards, 1 Turn/ 2 Turns, 1 Card) guidelines.
Hooded Hydra - Is worth some consideration because it's fair. If cast, you get double infinite but if it is attempted to be cheated into play, it does nothing. I don't know if fair is good enough.
Jeskai Charm - I'm thinking about it because the 3 abilities are solid. Creature removal is always good, even if it is temporary; some burn which is OK, and the possibility to gain some life is also meritorious. I don't know if the flexibility is worth it, but it's another charm that caught my eye.
Surrack Dragonclaw - Again, if it had more abilities than Flash and Can't be Countered. Sure, it's nice to stop further Counters along the way, but if he's trying to fill that niche, he's in competition with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and those are huge boots to fill.
Yeah, Kheru Spellsnatcher is an obvious staple. Even more so in mine due to the relatively large amount of morphs to give it a bit more of a surprise factor.
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with all the possible type 4 cards in the set.
No great looking finishers in this set, just utility spells (charms,Clever Impersonator) and removal (Utter End, Crackling Doom). Which isn't too bad.
Here are some of the cards you didn't mention that caught my eye:
Jeering Instigator makes me wish it didn't have that 'on your own turn' clause, would be a slam dunk otherwise. I am just wanting some more morphs :|
Sagu Mauler pretty much just a heavier Simic Sky Swallower, except with morph! I'll be throwing this in for more morph confusion, even if a 6/6 is probably on the small side.
Thousand Winds my god I love morph. Anything that has a decentish body or a semi-decent ability gets a second look. Probably not good enough as it will die before it gets to use its ability profitably but my be worth a shot in lower powered stacks.
I was looking at Ashcloud Phoenix and thinking if it had any applications. As it is a creature that will not die that can be repeatedly sacc'ed and has an 'alright' 4/1 evasive body. Might need a couple of card to support it being in there (Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, etc) but may be alright.
With Commander 2014 released I thought I would see what was type 4 worthy so here is another semi-review for the set:
Angel of the Dire Hour - I love me some flash creatures. This is pretty much a better Angel of Salvation. It is a removal spell that exiles, that leaves a 5/4 flyer behind at instant speed. What's not to love?
Breaching Leviathan - Just another Shipbreaker Kraken, but slightly smaller, doesn't target and doesn't affect blue. Could be alright but I'll pass.
Overseer of the Damned - Feels like an Angel of Despair but instead of being able to kill any permanent, can only kill creatures but leaves behind little zombies. Could be alright, but probably isn't good enough these days.
Warmonger Hellkite - Makes anyone's creature that you care about into a firebreather. Probably just paints a giant target on your head, as everyone will just swing at you so no one dies instantly. I might give it a chance, I did like Avatar of Slaughter and this reminds me of it well.
Lifeblood Hydra - It is Sphinx's Revelation on a creature! That is pretty much all there is too it. I can't run it in mine due to being communal stack and people being silly and drawing the entire library. It has a place in others though.
Siege Behemoth - I actually quite like this guy. I am an unashamed fan of Rhox in my stack and this guy will help you push through 7+ damage in a swing. Hexproof shouldn't be underrated either.
Those were the cards I thought were worth talking about. The rest I don't think stand much of a chance of making the cut. The black offering may be close but seems too helpful to other people for it to be up to the power level of most type 4 stacks.
With Commander 2014 released I thought I would see what was type 4 worthy so here is another semi-review for the set:
Angel of the Dire Hour - I love me some flash creatures. This is pretty much a better Angel of Salvation. It is a removal spell that exiles, that leaves a 5/4 flyer behind at instant speed. What's not to love?
Pretty much exactly my assessment, and I'm making the same switch in my own stack.
Siege Behemoth - I actually quite like this guy. I am an unashamed fan of Rhox in my stack and this guy will help you push through 7+ damage in a swing. Hexproof shouldn't be underrated either.
Again, that was my first thought when I saw this card spoiled. I myself have too strong of a nostalgia hook, that I'm actually keeping my Thorn Elemental in its place, but this is definitely a stronger option.
What are your thoughts on Comeuppance? I don't see any Fog-effects in your stack, but this one really intrigues me. It can act as a Reflect Damage against something like Searing Wind and also does a decent Chain Reaction impression.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
What are your thoughts on Comeuppance? I don't see any Fog-effects in your stack, but this one really intrigues me. It can act as a Reflect Damage against something like Searing Wind and also does a decent Chain Reaction impression.
I was almost going to mention it in my last post but I thought against it. Don't know why, just thought it was a worse Reflect Damage as with those cards you mainly redirect creature damage to a player. This one only does the creature damage back to the creature but it does for multiple sources. Is worth a look, but only after Captain's Maneuver and Divine Deflection as they are the more 'in your face' sort of spells I am looking for.
I should probably cut Second Thoughts for it, but for some reason I have an unhealthy attachment to the card, it is just so average, but it does everything I want, exiles, instant speed, draws a card. If anything, Trostani's Judgment/Unmake should be the next to go just for being boring.
Also, speaking of fog effects, I have been using Illusionist's Gambit in commander a lot recently and wonder if it has a place in the stack. It is just a more situational Reflect Damage but leads to more interesting gameplay as now they have to figure out which other opponent to swing at.
...
Commander didn’t bring hardly anything that spiked my interested, except for maybe Lifeblood Hydra
I generally play very few Infinite creatures, however Lifeblood Hydra seems like a really interesting card. Super powerful, but you can’t make him too big (we play with 40 card decks) and there’s still ways to get rid of him without letting someone gain life. Moneywise it’s really cheap too, so I’ll give it a try.
That's actually a really good point, which I hadn't considered. When deck sizes are limited (~40 cards), you can't make this arbitrarily large. It has no real way of protecting itself from the most basic of removal spells, so could as easily lead to a loss by "decking" as it could lead to a win by "beating". I'll definitely have to reconsider it.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
Netdecking T4 stacks seems ridiculous on so many levels. Yet, here I am after 2 weeks of hunting down cards I have never heard of - let alone owned - with 290 of 300 cards from the OP's current list on Cube Tutor ready to sleeve. Since I don't know the format or how my EDH group will react to it, I am sort of curious what you guys think. Is it the kind of pile that beer drinking idiot 30 year olds with families will enjoy playing? Just curious about general impressions.
Also, I don't own a Griselbrand or Dark Depths so those aren't in there. It got me thinking... Is there really a single card that anyone thinks is necessary for the format? Or, because they are all so stupidly powered with infinite mana is that less a thing?
Also, I don't own a Griselbrand or Dark Depths so those aren't in there. It got me thinking... Is there really a single card that anyone thinks is necessary for the format? Or, because they are all so stupidly powered with infinite mana is that less a thing
HetisjeboiM pretty much already said the same things but there isn't anything that could be called a 'staple'. Maybe something as simple as Dismiss and other upside counterspells but even then they are all pretty same-y and up to you what you want your stack to play like.
Since I don't know the format or how my EDH group will react to it, I am sort of curious what you guys think. Is it the kind of pile that beer drinking idiot 30 year olds with families will enjoy playing? Just curious about general impressions.
It is all up the playgroup as to what you find fun. Type 4 stacks and rule variations come in all shapes and sizes. From Tev's high-powered aggro/control/combo archetype focussed draft stack, to HetisjeboiM's free alternate casting cost rules variant stack. Then we have LimDul945's stack that is slightly less powered than Tev's that promotes longer games. Then we get to the communal/sealed stacks with DerBK's lower-powered stack with 3 card hand sizes and more lifegain than usual. Finally my communal stack with high-powered cards for quick, hilarious games between rounds at FNM.
My personal experience was that I made a rough copy of Tev's stack and tried to get people to draft it. I managed to convince 4 people to do it once but a couple were drinking too much and there were too many decisions to make (especially with tutors) that it wasn't that fun when the drunkards kept forgetting the 1 spell a turn rule. Which is why I converted it to a communal stack. Easy to setup and start games and while there isn't a gameplan to follow with the deck (aggro, control, etc.) due to not knowing what is in the deck, it still makes for great and interesting games because you never know what you are going to draw. I have a great time watching peoples faces when they rip a card and go 'why is this in here?' (FYI Mindbreak Trap is the winner of that award) or 'That's ridiculous'. It is how my playgroup and myself want to play. On casual commander nights we can plow through the entire stack in around 10+ games and 2 hours, which is a great variation from the usual constructed formats.
Would like to hear how your draft goes if (or when) it fires. You may even think of another rules variation to make your play experience better. I just hope you enjoy.
In general most of us have been playing the game for 10-20 years and have been EDH disciples for 5-6. For the last 6 months we just draft my EDH Cube, build 66 card decks, and play long slow games. I have a pretty strong leaning towards attrition based control and my Cube is loaded with cards that grind games to a halt - and there is a noted lack of tutors... almost all of which have been replaced my small draw. We have good numbers, people enjoy it, but I know that I like variety. The one thing that hasn't varied in years is the focus on answer-based deck building. In EDH that tends to create a lot of interactivity but also drags things out so a typical game is 2 hours long.
So, T4 seems like a good direction to test out. I have most of the cards anyway and had a bunch of unused credit on pucatrade, so I figure that with about $40 out of pocket for cards and sleeves I can have a working stack that I can swap cards around with my Cube... and have both! Since I host a bi-weekly game night I am looking to provide new things. With the Cube, all the Archenemy and Planechase cards, a Zombie Horde deck, a 16 deck Pauper meta game, and 8 sleeved recon EDH decks I feel like things are almost covered. But the group likes the 4 player face punching too.
I've kinda followed this thread over the years, as part of a group that has had an active T4 stack for 4-5 years now (humblebrag/source), but after seeing so much recent conversation in the last few weeks I figured I should start contributing!
I'll get our list up whenever the owner finally updates it.
To bring up a couple of recent conversation points among our group:
How big does a vanilla creature have to be to get played? 20/20? 100/100? 1,000,000/1,000,000? (Kalonian Twingrove is the heart of this conversation)
Would you play any of the new Commander 'walkers (mainly Teferi & Ob Nixilis) if you could put them in the command zone? Is that against the spirit of the format? I don't think so, and you wouldn't really be erattaing anything, since you're using text printed on the card, but I could see arguments to the contrary.
Did none of you consider putting in the draft-impacting Conspiracy cards? We are putting in Agent of Acquisitions, Canal Dredger (certainly the weakest of the bunch), Cogwork Librarian & Lore Seeker without a second thought. If you get them in sealed or big stack, just cycle them.
Is Ashcloud Phoenix healthy to put into t4? It'll normally result in one of two outcomes: instantly gamewinning, or borderline do-nothing. One interesting point that I brought up to our group, though, is that it will inherently improve every other morph (our bottom-tier morphs, for reference, are Chromeshell Crab & Krosan Cloudscraper) by virtue of possibly being a must-counter.
Sorry to ask, but what do you mean "alternative casting rules" as it pertains to Morph? I've been trying to find a way to pack 10+ Morph creatures into the pile just because in my EDH Cube a morph creature comes out and the table just goes, "Oh, Red Akroma... shocking " and I see the opportunity to really use the surprise of the morph.
Cards that have an alternative casting cost such as morph, bringers of the xxx dawn, overload etc. don't count towards the one spell/turn rule in my stack. Which makes morphs a lot more appealing to play.
For your reference this is my stack:
So, anything that can be cast without paying the upper right's mana cost doesn't count towards your spell... that's a pretty universal thing?
So, anything that can be cast without paying the upper right's mana cost doesn't count towards your spell... that's a pretty universal thing?
I wouldn't say it is a universal thing. I don't follow that rule at it is a little too unintuitive. People will always be asking if it counts toward the spell count or not. I know a couple of people who have their stacks built with this in mind but it is just another rules variation.
Tev had mentioned using it with his stack at one point but then it leads you to putting in Misdirection, Force of Will and even possibly something like Counterlash. Not sure why he didn't go down that path (too lazy to search the thread) but it is an interesting way to go.
I like how you mention two cards I don't have in my stack in the 'staples' category. For some reason I always thought Nezumi Graverobber had to exile all graveyards before it flipped. Makes it seems way better now and my include it in mine. I don't have Rise of the Dark Realms either both of which should be in. The graverobber is way more abusable though.
I also don't have Mistmeadow Witch which seems average. There could be enough etb effects to make it worth it, but it is just another defensive card then. Seems good fit for Type 4 but I wouldn't call it a 'staple'.
Would you play any of the new Commander 'walkers (mainly Teferi & Ob Nixilis) if you could put them in the command zone? Is that against the spirit of the format? I don't think so, and you wouldn't really be erattaing anything, since you're using text printed on the card, but I could see arguments to the contrary.
Did none of you consider putting in the draft-impacting Conspiracy cards? We are putting in Agent of Acquisitions, Canal Dredger (certainly the weakest of the bunch), Cogwork Librarian & Lore Seeker without a second thought. If you get them in sealed or big stack, just cycle them.
Is Ashcloud Phoenix healthy to put into t4? It'll normally result in one of two outcomes: instantly gamewinning, or borderline do-nothing. One interesting point that I brought up to our group, though, is that it will inherently improve every other morph (our bottom-tier morphs, for reference, are Chromeshell Crab & Krosan Cloudscraper) by virtue of possibly being a must-counter.
I feel that planeswalkers aren't really that strong enough for type 4. JtMS and Nicol Bolas may have a place but mostly they are just too slow to do anything powerful and go away from the windmill slams of type 4 cards. I don't feel like Ob or Teferi do enough to justify their inclusion and I don't feel up to making another rules variation for the command zone.
The 'draft matters' cards seem sweet. I have put Cogwork Librarian in my peasant cube to decent success. I just don't know how well they are for type 4. At least you can play a 4 mana 3/3 in cube. It isn't worth a card in type 4 though. Is it worth having non-playable cards that interact with the draft experience? I can't answer this due to not having a draftable stack. Also there are some drafts that say you have to play everything you draft. Seems like a trap then if you have a 3/3 do nothing stuck in your deck.
I don't know how often Ashcloud Phoenix will be 'instantly gamewinning'. I guess all you need is a sac outlet and you are ready to go. I did mention him in my 'Semi Khans Review' where he would work alright with a sac outlet but now that I look at him a little more he seems a little better. A decent roadblock that can attack in the air for 4 in a pinch isn't that type 4 worthy. Add on morph, then it becomes a trick and almost borderline playable. If I ever get one I may throw him in to see what he can do but I am not expecting anything fantastic.
I don't know how often Ashcloud Phoenix will be 'instantly gamewinning'. I guess all you need is a sac outlet and you are ready to go. I did mention him in my 'Semi Khans Review' where he would work alright with a sac outlet but now that I look at him a little more he seems a little better. A decent roadblock that can attack in the air for 4 in a pinch isn't that type 4 worthy. Add on morph, then it becomes a trick and almost borderline playable. If I ever get one I may throw him in to see what he can do but I am not expecting anything fantastic.
My problem with the 'Phoenix is that you're almost never going to have him countered as a morph. I mean, what are the chances of that one random morph creature being a "must-counter" card? Not very high I'd assume. No other morph I can think of has a significant impact on the resolution of the game like this one does.
If you're playing with a draft deck that has sac' outlets (or Masticore or Fevered Convulsions, et cetera), you're not going to try to land your 'Phoenix, which looks to everyone else like a "random morph creature," until you have the other side of the combo on-board. In my opinion, that makes it even less enjoyable of a card to play than any of the Earthquake variants that draw the game. I realize that it's still a 2-card combo, but it just doesn't feel like either piece of it would draw a counter on its own.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
It has been a while. Time for replies. First, I added an updated list of wants. I've been drifting away from Magic for a while, been mostly playing Infinity and Batman wargames. Been managing a blog for it too. To be honest, I've been thinking of selling my Type 4 stack as it is getting very little play. Anyway, what's my picks?
Commander 2014 Angel of Dire Hour - Instant speed body that Exiles attackers Necromantic Selection - Wrath that gets you the reason you wrathed Lifeblood Hydra - Balanced fatty that heals and draw cards Loreseeker's Stone - Card draw is indeed king Siege Behemoth - The point of aggro is to punch through, that does that and protects itself too
As for what to remove? I don't know, I've got my list on the chopping block. Some cards that have been there for a while might finally get the axe, or survive another round.
I cut Second Thoughts for Resounding Silence. Twice the effect and doesn't take up your spell slot. I can't see removing the vanilla removal as long as it is so good. Exiling a threat is awesome. It has been making me toy with the idea of using AWOL - If you AWOL a creature it gets put back into the box. It's done for the night, you just undid someone's draft. Though that would be a surefire way of creating an enemy for an evening, and if spread liberally, the whole table might hate you.
I'm glad that you've found my archetype helpful Galspanic. I've seen the great advice everybody here has given. As for completely necessary cards... If you play with "Free Alt CC" then you're required to pick up Force of Will, as far as I'm concerned. That is the one big reason why I don't have Alt CC, I don't want to shell out for Force. If I get one through trades, then maybe I would switch the stack up. There are so many different cards that are good with Alt CC that it would significantly shake up the stack. On the other hand, I think there are plenty of cards that are too powerful. I've got them listed in my "Bans" section - yet you'll see lists with them.
Type 4 has some heavy errata opportunities. I know players that have Anger or Wonder and treat themselves as if they have infinite lands of all types. This means they can always entwine Betrayal of Flesh. Others even have made up cards in their stack. I've decided to eschew all errata. The cards appear to be exactly as they appear. I have only one exception and that is towards handling infinity. In Magic the real rules, if two players go infinite then the effects only happen once each. That isn't fun in Type 4. So, I've made it that the action that would the least game state change is the victorious one. So, a Combat Medic will always prevent Olivia Voldaren. The exception to this exception is that an Azorious Guildmage always stops an ability before it goes off.
Yeah, Kirblinx is spot on with trying out the stack. Any stack is great for a skeleton and then make adjustments from there on. I, once upon a time, removed Tutors from the stack because I found that players took too long to find what they want. It was ridiculous. Cast the tutor for what you want in mind, not just cast for giggles to see what you have. The pendulum has swung the other way for me and I have tutors because I want the stack to be the strongest within the cards I get (and yes, I realize the only way to get crazier is using Alt CC). Figure out if you want tutors or not. Tutor.dec is currently the strongest archetype, as you're playing just good cards and ways to find them.
ganderin_dan, your list of staples is exactly my experience with Type 4. Everybody figures out their own limit. I found Nezumi Graverobber and Mistmeadow Witch to be too powerful. The idea of powerful cards with effects that can't be duplicated is the perfect example. Though it is nice to see that StarCityGames still supports Type 4, it's been a while since I checked up on them. I wonder if my Type 4 articles are still up... Yes, they are. Though I do see that it is at the end of your article. :/
Excellent questions, by the way.
How big does a vanilla have to be to be playable? Vanilla is unplayable. If Type 4 is about the craziest plays, strange interactions and just an excuse to let your inner Timmy/Johnny out, then vanilla doesn't cut it. Vanilla hurts all the strategies of Aggro, Control and Combo. The only vanilla creature in my stack is a Riptide Replicator. It pumps out X/Xs and requires multi-destruction to get rid of and that's the best it gets. Even French Vanilla (Guys with 1 keyword) are not playable. The creature either needs to push towards one of the three strategies and for aggro, it needs to protect itself with evasion and high power.
As for Planeswalkers, I found them unplayable. Too often someone would 1-for-1 them accidentally. The effects are too slow. If anything, only Bosh and Nicol Bolas were playable. But then they were a lot of money and this is a hobby I don't want to spend too much on.
The Conspiracy Draft cards in theory are nice, but I found that they're vanilla or too small in the regular game of Type 4 which makes them unplayable. The actual Conspiracies was something I'd consider using. If only to reduce your deck size, sometimes literally like Advantageous Proclamation, but other ways to lower card count.
I think Ashcloud Pheonix to be too many hoops to jump through. For example, if you want to kill everybody because their life totals are already placed in that way, I've got a Thrashing Wumpus/Pestilence Demon. Those require you to already be winning before you utilize them. The Pheonix, in my eyes takes, too much effort in comparison for combo-play. For control play, there are better indestructible critters like Mist Dragon or Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang.
And thanks to everybody for keeping this Type 4 thread alive. I've been finding that with the popularity of Commander rising, people's interest in Type 4 diminishes.
After completing your list as a starting point (except Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund was Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Morphing was Aetherling) and introduced it to a chunk of my regular EDH group. Only 4 showed up to draft, a 5th afterwards, but the 5 were veteran players with something like 70 years of combine experience playing the game. Knowing that T4 has a reputation for being a very casual, goofy, and somewhat ridiculous format I was a little weary about how well it would be received.
We had a blast much to the surprise of almost everyone. It was a lot more complex and interactive than I thought it'd be and the stories about 2-3 turn games just didn't happen. We saw most go 25-30 minutes with all 5 players being the "must kill" guy in each game. In normal EDH there are a lot of game variables going on, but paying attention to the stack and turn order like we did with T4 was not something I expected or really even knew how to deal with at first. For the draft we picked two each time - decking 1 and removing the other from the game. That left us with 40 card decks. The guy who showed up later just picked the top 40 cards of the trash pile and called it good.
My initial hesitation was that it would be a "lesser format" without anything for experienced players to do, but that wasn't the case at all. I got great feedback from the night and will be doing it again.
Though I think that AEtherling is way too good. But hey, finding cards that are "too good" can be part of the fun. You find out what your group will tolerate.
Though I think that AEtherling is way too good. But hey, finding cards that are "too good" can be part of the fun. You find out what your group will tolerate.
I thought Aetherling would be a bit too good too, but in 2 games he was the only card that dealt damage to people. The fact that Flowstone Overseer and Azorius Guildmage were out just made it a lot less amazing. It might have been that we had the perfect answers for it, but it spent most of the time in exile not doing anything.
Because of how we used the stack Azorius Guildmage was way too good, so she is already on the watch list.
The thing is the Azorious Guildmage keeps a lot of cards in check. She's also pretty easy to kill. Part of the fun with her is trying to keep her alive. If you do find that she is too good, then try the much more watered down version with the New Prahv Guildmage.
Some cards exist just to be a foil for another. i.e. Word of Seizing most of the time isn't that good, mostly an Uncounterable Instant Control but there are corner cases where Word of Seizing nabs you exactly what you want. I think my favourite example is a Word of Seizing will permanently gain control of a Mist Dragon due to how Phasing works. Mist Dragon is far from a big threat you'd use it on, more like Mindslaver or Door to Nothingness.
We use the alt cast cost rule, and I'm pushing to have it applied universally (Morphs, Bringers mainly) because it's currently only for cycling (we have all 5 ofthe [card=Resounding Wave]Resounding cycle), pitching (a la Force of Will & Misdirection). I think that might make some morphs too good, but I'd at least like to try it, and equalize the power level a touch. Alternatively, we may just cut our current bringers (Blue & Black).
We also play with 1,000,000 of each land in play for things like Dungrove Elder, Mutilate (when it was in the stack), Glory, etc, but you can't sacrifice them for any effects i.e. Betrayal of Flesh.
Re: Kirb
We have Karn Liberated, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Sorin Markhov (way to get someone off of infinite, and the Mindslaver effect isn't irrelevant if you can get him onto a controllable board), and one more that I can't think of immediately, but not JtMS.
As far as the draft matters cards, you just cut them. In our drafting format, you have the option to cut at least 4 or 5 cards (and many more in sealed), depending on # of players & packs present. Not going to force anyone to put a 1/3 into their deck =P We never play with a communal big stack, the closest we get to that is just randomly grabbing piles and going to town.
Phoenix will be gamewinning any time you have a machine gun (Olivia Voldaren, Smokespew Invoker, etc.) and have more life than the table, or a sac outlet as you mentioned.
Re: Tev
You don't think that Loreseeker's stone is a bit too redundant with Tower of Fortunes/Mind's Eye/etc?
Excellent point on the Wumpus/Phoenix comparison.
I get the point re: planeswalker value, but that's why I thought the "command zone" aspect could help counteract that. We've all been in those situations where there's no profitable sorcery to play (or just none at all), and that would help provide some repeated value.
Ætherling is definitely strong, but not anything out of hand in our stack. And Guildmage has to be there to keep things in check.
A couple of days ago I was looking through the thread to find other people's lists to get some ideas on cards that I haven't considered to add. Then after not finding that much due to there only being about 5 people that talk on this thread didn't get much in the form of new ideas. Then looking at my stack in cubetutor I noticed you could compare to other cubes and started various searches to find other Type 4 stacks and compare. I thought to save myself the effort again in finding them if need be I would just post them here. For myself to find later and for others to look at if they are intrigued.
In case you are wondering what cards I found that I thought might fit well in my stack, well I have bought the following cards and are awaiting them in the mail
Yeah, it's cool to see other lists. I was very interested in Sherriff's Stack after saying it was similar to mine. I see that he had a few cards that broke the '1 Spell per Turn' like Maelstrom Wanderer. He also put in any hard counter in the game. He had more game enders so I guess it was appropriate. It's interesting to see some cards not in his stack that I would consider not too powerful, while he has obvious bombs that I consider too powerful just laying about.
I've played with Multani, Maro-Sorcerer, Backlash and Yawgmoth's Agenda before. I found them to be too weak and were cut. I think Agenda is great in a stack that takes time for people to win. If there is a late end game, then you're a guy who is suddenly way on top. I still use Arcanis the Omnipotent as he and Ertai, Wizard Adept are the only guys who effects I find are worth waiting to tap for.
@ganderin_dan: Maybe Loreseeker's Stone might be redundant, but it draws cards. Aside from Countering, I don't think anybody would complain about either of the most two powerful abilities in the game.
Soulfire Grand Master - The Lifelinking of Spells is secondary and neat, I'm more interested in the fact she gives every spell you cast Buyback. Buybacking Removal means that any 1-for-1 suddenly is very good. I'm interested in this card because it is very easy to cast her and then get immediate value out of following turns. Burn.dec becomes valuable because you can repeatedly Urza's Rage or the like.
Whisperwood Elemental - This feels like a far more appropriate Caller of the Claw or any other "I'm punishing your Wrath" card. If you're playing aggro, you're fine with one or two creatures buying the dust. With this, you can easily slip in an extra one or two potentials without the possibility of counters. It could whiff and get you just some 2/2 bears, but if you're playing with a high creature count then it's easy to get extra guys after a wrath. On top of this, it makes more mystery morphs.
Soulfire Grand Master - The Lifelinking of Spells is secondary and neat, I'm more interested in the fact she gives every spell you cast Buyback. Buybacking Removal means that any 1-for-1 suddenly is very good. I'm interested in this card because it is very easy to cast her and then get immediate value out of following turns. Burn.dec becomes valuable because you can repeatedly Urza's Rage or the like.
...
Put me on the list of people who are excited about the 'Grandmaster as well. I've always wanted Wizards to print more Buyback (since I started playting in Tempest block), but this card is easily the next best thing to that if I have to compromise. Definitely finding a place for this in the cube.
I'm not too high on Whisperwood Elemental, though the longer I look at it, the more I seem to like its "best-case-scenarios". Even still, in terms of Wrath-protection, I think I'd rather have something like Prince of Thralls for the laughs, or Boros Charm for the blowouts.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
After thinking about the previous picks, I think that Crackling Doom, Sultai Charm and Utter End are the only Type 4 worthy cards. Duneblast is just a Plague Winds variant with a bit more thought.
What else is playable here?
Clever Impostor - It Clones anything. That's pretty much the definition of what you want in a Clone.
Dig Through Time - Solid draw spell. In ways, it is better than some of the Fact or Fiction variants I have running already.
Kheru Spellsnatcher - Is strictly superior to Voidmage Apprentice.
Pearl Lake Ancient - If it had any other ability, I might be interested in this Flash creature. As it stands, not so much.
Empty the Pits - Way too good. EOT Infinite? That breaks one of the rules 2-1 (2 Cards, 1 Turn/ 2 Turns, 1 Card) guidelines.
Hooded Hydra - Is worth some consideration because it's fair. If cast, you get double infinite but if it is attempted to be cheated into play, it does nothing. I don't know if fair is good enough.
Jeskai Charm - I'm thinking about it because the 3 abilities are solid. Creature removal is always good, even if it is temporary; some burn which is OK, and the possibility to gain some life is also meritorious. I don't know if the flexibility is worth it, but it's another charm that caught my eye.
Surrack Dragonclaw - Again, if it had more abilities than Flash and Can't be Countered. Sure, it's nice to stop further Counters along the way, but if he's trying to fill that niche, he's in competition with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and those are huge boots to fill.
Ugin's Nexus - A non-abusive way to Time Walk, I kind of like it.
Those are my Type 4 picks from the latest set.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
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I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with all the possible type 4 cards in the set.
No great looking finishers in this set, just utility spells (charms,Clever Impersonator) and removal (Utter End, Crackling Doom). Which isn't too bad.
Here are some of the cards you didn't mention that caught my eye:
Deflecting Palm is another (more terrible) Captain's Maneuver/Divine Deflection. Another option if you like these cards.
High Sentinels of Arashin makes your entire team infinite powered. There are plenty of cards that do this already (Moonveil Dragon, Mirror Entity etc.) but having another option is nice I guess.
Jeering Instigator makes me wish it didn't have that 'on your own turn' clause, would be a slam dunk otherwise. I am just wanting some more morphs :|
Sagu Mauler pretty much just a heavier Simic Sky Swallower, except with morph! I'll be throwing this in for more morph confusion, even if a 6/6 is probably on the small side.
Thousand Winds my god I love morph. Anything that has a decentish body or a semi-decent ability gets a second look. Probably not good enough as it will die before it gets to use its ability profitably but my be worth a shot in lower powered stacks.
I was looking at Ashcloud Phoenix and thinking if it had any applications. As it is a creature that will not die that can be repeatedly sacc'ed and has an 'alright' 4/1 evasive body. Might need a couple of card to support it being in there (Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, etc) but may be alright.
Angel of the Dire Hour - I love me some flash creatures. This is pretty much a better Angel of Salvation. It is a removal spell that exiles, that leaves a 5/4 flyer behind at instant speed. What's not to love?
Breaching Leviathan - Just another Shipbreaker Kraken, but slightly smaller, doesn't target and doesn't affect blue. Could be alright but I'll pass.
Overseer of the Damned - Feels like an Angel of Despair but instead of being able to kill any permanent, can only kill creatures but leaves behind little zombies. Could be alright, but probably isn't good enough these days.
Necromantic Selection - A better Phyrexian Rebirth. If you need fancier wraths, this is one way to go.
Warmonger Hellkite - Makes anyone's creature that you care about into a firebreather. Probably just paints a giant target on your head, as everyone will just swing at you so no one dies instantly. I might give it a chance, I did like Avatar of Slaughter and this reminds me of it well.
Lifeblood Hydra - It is Sphinx's Revelation on a creature! That is pretty much all there is too it. I can't run it in mine due to being communal stack and people being silly and drawing the entire library. It has a place in others though.
Siege Behemoth - I actually quite like this guy. I am an unashamed fan of Rhox in my stack and this guy will help you push through 7+ damage in a swing. Hexproof shouldn't be underrated either.
Loreseeker's Stone - Another Temple of Fortunes? Don't mind if I do. Card draw is king and if Jayemdae Tome can make it into my stack, I don't see why this can't.
Those were the cards I thought were worth talking about. The rest I don't think stand much of a chance of making the cut. The black offering may be close but seems too helpful to other people for it to be up to the power level of most type 4 stacks.
Pretty much exactly my assessment, and I'm making the same switch in my own stack.
Again, that was my first thought when I saw this card spoiled. I myself have too strong of a nostalgia hook, that I'm actually keeping my Thorn Elemental in its place, but this is definitely a stronger option.
What are your thoughts on Comeuppance? I don't see any Fog-effects in your stack, but this one really intrigues me. It can act as a Reflect Damage against something like Searing Wind and also does a decent Chain Reaction impression.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
I was almost going to mention it in my last post but I thought against it. Don't know why, just thought it was a worse Reflect Damage as with those cards you mainly redirect creature damage to a player. This one only does the creature damage back to the creature but it does for multiple sources. Is worth a look, but only after Captain's Maneuver and Divine Deflection as they are the more 'in your face' sort of spells I am looking for.
I should probably cut Second Thoughts for it, but for some reason I have an unhealthy attachment to the card, it is just so average, but it does everything I want, exiles, instant speed, draws a card. If anything, Trostani's Judgment/Unmake should be the next to go just for being boring.
Also, speaking of fog effects, I have been using Illusionist's Gambit in commander a lot recently and wonder if it has a place in the stack. It is just a more situational Reflect Damage but leads to more interesting gameplay as now they have to figure out which other opponent to swing at.
That's actually a really good point, which I hadn't considered. When deck sizes are limited (~40 cards), you can't make this arbitrarily large. It has no real way of protecting itself from the most basic of removal spells, so could as easily lead to a loss by "decking" as it could lead to a win by "beating". I'll definitely have to reconsider it.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
Also, I don't own a Griselbrand or Dark Depths so those aren't in there. It got me thinking... Is there really a single card that anyone thinks is necessary for the format? Or, because they are all so stupidly powered with infinite mana is that less a thing?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
HetisjeboiM pretty much already said the same things but there isn't anything that could be called a 'staple'. Maybe something as simple as Dismiss and other upside counterspells but even then they are all pretty same-y and up to you what you want your stack to play like.
Which brings up the next point:
It is all up the playgroup as to what you find fun. Type 4 stacks and rule variations come in all shapes and sizes. From Tev's high-powered aggro/control/combo archetype focussed draft stack, to HetisjeboiM's free alternate casting cost rules variant stack. Then we have LimDul945's stack that is slightly less powered than Tev's that promotes longer games. Then we get to the communal/sealed stacks with DerBK's lower-powered stack with 3 card hand sizes and more lifegain than usual. Finally my communal stack with high-powered cards for quick, hilarious games between rounds at FNM.
My personal experience was that I made a rough copy of Tev's stack and tried to get people to draft it. I managed to convince 4 people to do it once but a couple were drinking too much and there were too many decisions to make (especially with tutors) that it wasn't that fun when the drunkards kept forgetting the 1 spell a turn rule. Which is why I converted it to a communal stack. Easy to setup and start games and while there isn't a gameplan to follow with the deck (aggro, control, etc.) due to not knowing what is in the deck, it still makes for great and interesting games because you never know what you are going to draw. I have a great time watching peoples faces when they rip a card and go 'why is this in here?' (FYI Mindbreak Trap is the winner of that award) or 'That's ridiculous'. It is how my playgroup and myself want to play. On casual commander nights we can plow through the entire stack in around 10+ games and 2 hours, which is a great variation from the usual constructed formats.
Would like to hear how your draft goes if (or when) it fires. You may even think of another rules variation to make your play experience better. I just hope you enjoy.
So, T4 seems like a good direction to test out. I have most of the cards anyway and had a bunch of unused credit on pucatrade, so I figure that with about $40 out of pocket for cards and sleeves I can have a working stack that I can swap cards around with my Cube... and have both! Since I host a bi-weekly game night I am looking to provide new things. With the Cube, all the Archenemy and Planechase cards, a Zombie Horde deck, a 16 deck Pauper meta game, and 8 sleeved recon EDH decks I feel like things are almost covered. But the group likes the 4 player face punching too.
Thanks!
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I'll get our list up whenever the owner finally updates it.
When I think of t4 staples, I think of our top picks in the format. Word of Seizing, Aeon Chronicler, Nezumi Graverobber, Azorius Guildmage, Decree of Silence, Mistmeadow Witch, etc. Mainly, powerful effects that can't really be duplicated.
I like Tev's picks from Khans. Kheru Spellsnatcher, Crackling Doom, Deflecting Palm, Utter End, Dig Through Time, and Clever Impostor should manage to find their ways in. I'd like to see Surrak as well, but he may not be up to snuff. A bunch of somewhat relevant abilities that I think justifies trying out, though.
To bring up a couple of recent conversation points among our group:
How big does a vanilla creature have to be to get played? 20/20? 100/100? 1,000,000/1,000,000? (Kalonian Twingrove is the heart of this conversation)
Would you play any of the new Commander 'walkers (mainly Teferi & Ob Nixilis) if you could put them in the command zone? Is that against the spirit of the format? I don't think so, and you wouldn't really be erattaing anything, since you're using text printed on the card, but I could see arguments to the contrary.
Did none of you consider putting in the draft-impacting Conspiracy cards? We are putting in Agent of Acquisitions, Canal Dredger (certainly the weakest of the bunch), Cogwork Librarian & Lore Seeker without a second thought. If you get them in sealed or big stack, just cycle them.
Is Ashcloud Phoenix healthy to put into t4? It'll normally result in one of two outcomes: instantly gamewinning, or borderline do-nothing. One interesting point that I brought up to our group, though, is that it will inherently improve every other morph (our bottom-tier morphs, for reference, are Chromeshell Crab & Krosan Cloudscraper) by virtue of possibly being a must-counter.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
So, anything that can be cast without paying the upper right's mana cost doesn't count towards your spell... that's a pretty universal thing?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Tev had mentioned using it with his stack at one point but then it leads you to putting in Misdirection, Force of Will and even possibly something like Counterlash. Not sure why he didn't go down that path (too lazy to search the thread) but it is an interesting way to go. I like how you mention two cards I don't have in my stack in the 'staples' category. For some reason I always thought Nezumi Graverobber had to exile all graveyards before it flipped. Makes it seems way better now and my include it in mine. I don't have Rise of the Dark Realms either both of which should be in. The graverobber is way more abusable though.
I also don't have Mistmeadow Witch which seems average. There could be enough etb effects to make it worth it, but it is just another defensive card then. Seems good fit for Type 4 but I wouldn't call it a 'staple'.
I feel that planeswalkers aren't really that strong enough for type 4. JtMS and Nicol Bolas may have a place but mostly they are just too slow to do anything powerful and go away from the windmill slams of type 4 cards. I don't feel like Ob or Teferi do enough to justify their inclusion and I don't feel up to making another rules variation for the command zone.
The 'draft matters' cards seem sweet. I have put Cogwork Librarian in my peasant cube to decent success. I just don't know how well they are for type 4. At least you can play a 4 mana 3/3 in cube. It isn't worth a card in type 4 though. Is it worth having non-playable cards that interact with the draft experience? I can't answer this due to not having a draftable stack. Also there are some drafts that say you have to play everything you draft. Seems like a trap then if you have a 3/3 do nothing stuck in your deck.
I don't know how often Ashcloud Phoenix will be 'instantly gamewinning'. I guess all you need is a sac outlet and you are ready to go. I did mention him in my 'Semi Khans Review' where he would work alright with a sac outlet but now that I look at him a little more he seems a little better. A decent roadblock that can attack in the air for 4 in a pinch isn't that type 4 worthy. Add on morph, then it becomes a trick and almost borderline playable. If I ever get one I may throw him in to see what he can do but I am not expecting anything fantastic.
My problem with the 'Phoenix is that you're almost never going to have him countered as a morph. I mean, what are the chances of that one random morph creature being a "must-counter" card? Not very high I'd assume. No other morph I can think of has a significant impact on the resolution of the game like this one does.
If you're playing with a draft deck that has sac' outlets (or Masticore or Fevered Convulsions, et cetera), you're not going to try to land your 'Phoenix, which looks to everyone else like a "random morph creature," until you have the other side of the combo on-board. In my opinion, that makes it even less enjoyable of a card to play than any of the Earthquake variants that draw the game. I realize that it's still a 2-card combo, but it just doesn't feel like either piece of it would draw a counter on its own.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW
Khans of Tarkir
Crackling Doom Multi-target edict with some damage
Utter End - Exile Anything
Clever Impersonator - Clone anything
Dig Through Time - Instant speed card filtering
Kheru Spellsnatcher - Better than Void Apprentrice
Commander 2014
Angel of Dire Hour - Instant speed body that Exiles attackers
Necromantic Selection - Wrath that gets you the reason you wrathed
Lifeblood Hydra - Balanced fatty that heals and draw cards
Loreseeker's Stone - Card draw is indeed king
Siege Behemoth - The point of aggro is to punch through, that does that and protects itself too
As for what to remove? I don't know, I've got my list on the chopping block. Some cards that have been there for a while might finally get the axe, or survive another round.
I cut Second Thoughts for Resounding Silence. Twice the effect and doesn't take up your spell slot. I can't see removing the vanilla removal as long as it is so good. Exiling a threat is awesome. It has been making me toy with the idea of using AWOL - If you AWOL a creature it gets put back into the box. It's done for the night, you just undid someone's draft. Though that would be a surefire way of creating an enemy for an evening, and if spread liberally, the whole table might hate you.
I'm glad that you've found my archetype helpful Galspanic. I've seen the great advice everybody here has given. As for completely necessary cards... If you play with "Free Alt CC" then you're required to pick up Force of Will, as far as I'm concerned. That is the one big reason why I don't have Alt CC, I don't want to shell out for Force. If I get one through trades, then maybe I would switch the stack up. There are so many different cards that are good with Alt CC that it would significantly shake up the stack. On the other hand, I think there are plenty of cards that are too powerful. I've got them listed in my "Bans" section - yet you'll see lists with them.
Type 4 has some heavy errata opportunities. I know players that have Anger or Wonder and treat themselves as if they have infinite lands of all types. This means they can always entwine Betrayal of Flesh. Others even have made up cards in their stack. I've decided to eschew all errata. The cards appear to be exactly as they appear. I have only one exception and that is towards handling infinity. In Magic the real rules, if two players go infinite then the effects only happen once each. That isn't fun in Type 4. So, I've made it that the action that would the least game state change is the victorious one. So, a Combat Medic will always prevent Olivia Voldaren. The exception to this exception is that an Azorious Guildmage always stops an ability before it goes off.
Yeah, Kirblinx is spot on with trying out the stack. Any stack is great for a skeleton and then make adjustments from there on. I, once upon a time, removed Tutors from the stack because I found that players took too long to find what they want. It was ridiculous. Cast the tutor for what you want in mind, not just cast for giggles to see what you have. The pendulum has swung the other way for me and I have tutors because I want the stack to be the strongest within the cards I get (and yes, I realize the only way to get crazier is using Alt CC). Figure out if you want tutors or not. Tutor.dec is currently the strongest archetype, as you're playing just good cards and ways to find them.
ganderin_dan, your list of staples is exactly my experience with Type 4. Everybody figures out their own limit. I found Nezumi Graverobber and Mistmeadow Witch to be too powerful. The idea of powerful cards with effects that can't be duplicated is the perfect example. Though it is nice to see that StarCityGames still supports Type 4, it's been a while since I checked up on them. I wonder if my Type 4 articles are still up... Yes, they are. Though I do see that it is at the end of your article. :/
Excellent questions, by the way.
How big does a vanilla have to be to be playable? Vanilla is unplayable. If Type 4 is about the craziest plays, strange interactions and just an excuse to let your inner Timmy/Johnny out, then vanilla doesn't cut it. Vanilla hurts all the strategies of Aggro, Control and Combo. The only vanilla creature in my stack is a Riptide Replicator. It pumps out X/Xs and requires multi-destruction to get rid of and that's the best it gets. Even French Vanilla (Guys with 1 keyword) are not playable. The creature either needs to push towards one of the three strategies and for aggro, it needs to protect itself with evasion and high power.
As for Planeswalkers, I found them unplayable. Too often someone would 1-for-1 them accidentally. The effects are too slow. If anything, only Bosh and Nicol Bolas were playable. But then they were a lot of money and this is a hobby I don't want to spend too much on.
The Conspiracy Draft cards in theory are nice, but I found that they're vanilla or too small in the regular game of Type 4 which makes them unplayable. The actual Conspiracies was something I'd consider using. If only to reduce your deck size, sometimes literally like Advantageous Proclamation, but other ways to lower card count.
I think Ashcloud Pheonix to be too many hoops to jump through. For example, if you want to kill everybody because their life totals are already placed in that way, I've got a Thrashing Wumpus/Pestilence Demon. Those require you to already be winning before you utilize them. The Pheonix, in my eyes takes, too much effort in comparison for combo-play. For control play, there are better indestructible critters like Mist Dragon or Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang.
And thanks to everybody for keeping this Type 4 thread alive. I've been finding that with the popularity of Commander rising, people's interest in Type 4 diminishes.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
We had a blast much to the surprise of almost everyone. It was a lot more complex and interactive than I thought it'd be and the stories about 2-3 turn games just didn't happen. We saw most go 25-30 minutes with all 5 players being the "must kill" guy in each game. In normal EDH there are a lot of game variables going on, but paying attention to the stack and turn order like we did with T4 was not something I expected or really even knew how to deal with at first. For the draft we picked two each time - decking 1 and removing the other from the game. That left us with 40 card decks. The guy who showed up later just picked the top 40 cards of the trash pile and called it good.
My initial hesitation was that it would be a "lesser format" without anything for experienced players to do, but that wasn't the case at all. I got great feedback from the night and will be doing it again.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Though I think that AEtherling is way too good. But hey, finding cards that are "too good" can be part of the fun. You find out what your group will tolerate.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Because of how we used the stack Azorius Guildmage was way too good, so she is already on the watch list.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Some cards exist just to be a foil for another. i.e. Word of Seizing most of the time isn't that good, mostly an Uncounterable Instant Control but there are corner cases where Word of Seizing nabs you exactly what you want. I think my favourite example is a Word of Seizing will permanently gain control of a Mist Dragon due to how Phasing works. Mist Dragon is far from a big threat you'd use it on, more like Mindslaver or Door to Nothingness.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
We also play with 1,000,000 of each land in play for things like Dungrove Elder, Mutilate (when it was in the stack), Glory, etc, but you can't sacrifice them for any effects i.e. Betrayal of Flesh.
Re: Kirb
We have Karn Liberated, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Sorin Markhov (way to get someone off of infinite, and the Mindslaver effect isn't irrelevant if you can get him onto a controllable board), and one more that I can't think of immediately, but not JtMS.
As far as the draft matters cards, you just cut them. In our drafting format, you have the option to cut at least 4 or 5 cards (and many more in sealed), depending on # of players & packs present. Not going to force anyone to put a 1/3 into their deck =P We never play with a communal big stack, the closest we get to that is just randomly grabbing piles and going to town.
Phoenix will be gamewinning any time you have a machine gun (Olivia Voldaren, Smokespew Invoker, etc.) and have more life than the table, or a sac outlet as you mentioned.
Re: Tev
You don't think that Loreseeker's stone is a bit too redundant with Tower of Fortunes/Mind's Eye/etc?
Excellent point on the Wumpus/Phoenix comparison.
I get the point re: planeswalker value, but that's why I thought the "command zone" aspect could help counteract that. We've all been in those situations where there's no profitable sorcery to play (or just none at all), and that would help provide some repeated value.
Ætherling is definitely strong, but not anything out of hand in our stack. And Guildmage has to be there to keep things in check.
Ksym's Stack an interesting build focusing on draft archetypes eg. Roar of Reclamation
Pellanor's Stack complete with C14 updates!
The Kingmaker Brick probably the most indepth in regards to changes made.
Sheriff Stack feels like Tev's list but up to 400 cards.
Icy's Stack must use alt. casting costs as I see a Fist of Suns in there.
Norbert88's Stack is also using Fist of Suns.
Crimson's Stack is fairly standard.
BrentKiwi's Communal Stack is an interesting take on the communal stack as it is quite low powered. More interactions and less must deal with threats.
Plus some large stacks that I missed the first time through:
Superflip's Stack at a nice 527 cards.
Tzenmoroth's Stack is another 500+ card pile.
Tyler's Stack is over 600 cards.
Andre's Stack is over 650 cards.
Envian's Huge Stack is what a stack would look like if it tried to be 1000 cards.
There are some older stacks that haven't been updated in a while:
Lyan's Stack
Clustro's Stack
Then you have mine, Tev's and Lim Dul's
My Communal Stack
Tev's Stack
Lim Dul's Stack
In case you are wondering what cards I found that I thought might fit well in my stack, well I have bought the following cards and are awaiting them in the mail
Edit: Added the larger stacks as my search parameters were off the first time.
I've played with Multani, Maro-Sorcerer, Backlash and Yawgmoth's Agenda before. I found them to be too weak and were cut. I think Agenda is great in a stack that takes time for people to win. If there is a late end game, then you're a guy who is suddenly way on top. I still use Arcanis the Omnipotent as he and Ertai, Wizard Adept are the only guys who effects I find are worth waiting to tap for.
@ganderin_dan: Maybe Loreseeker's Stone might be redundant, but it draws cards. Aside from Countering, I don't think anybody would complain about either of the most two powerful abilities in the game.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Soulfire Grand Master - The Lifelinking of Spells is secondary and neat, I'm more interested in the fact she gives every spell you cast Buyback. Buybacking Removal means that any 1-for-1 suddenly is very good. I'm interested in this card because it is very easy to cast her and then get immediate value out of following turns. Burn.dec becomes valuable because you can repeatedly Urza's Rage or the like.
Whisperwood Elemental - This feels like a far more appropriate Caller of the Claw or any other "I'm punishing your Wrath" card. If you're playing aggro, you're fine with one or two creatures buying the dust. With this, you can easily slip in an extra one or two potentials without the possibility of counters. It could whiff and get you just some 2/2 bears, but if you're playing with a high creature count then it's easy to get extra guys after a wrath. On top of this, it makes more mystery morphs.
Alt CC players would find Dash to be pretty awesome, especially if we see something more bombastic than Flamerush Rider or Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Put me on the list of people who are excited about the 'Grandmaster as well. I've always wanted Wizards to print more Buyback (since I started playting in Tempest block), but this card is easily the next best thing to that if I have to compromise. Definitely finding a place for this in the cube.
I'm not too high on Whisperwood Elemental, though the longer I look at it, the more I seem to like its "best-case-scenarios". Even still, in terms of Wrath-protection, I think I'd rather have something like Prince of Thralls for the laughs, or Boros Charm for the blowouts.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRGCheck out some of my older lists and my Type4 Cube!GRBUW