My draw selection, especially at Instant Speed, is really crappy. Intuition has been on the Chopping Block for a long time now but nothing has measured up at Instant Speed to warrant the change. Steam Augury is better because its going to nab you at least 2 cards but maybe up for 4. Personally, I only see splitting this 3-2 with the two best cards in the 2 slot unless I go for major card advantage by going 4-1 when 1 is a back breaking bomb like Tooth and Nail, Rise of the Dark Realms or Decree of Silence.
Yeah, Steam Augury isn't going to let you search but its going to fill your 'yard and dig deeper into your deck.
Also, something I didn't realize by the MTGSalvation Discussion forum doesn't seem to think anything is real if it is posted in the Theros Spoiler. I don't know whether to doubt the Spoilers (which have consistently been excellent over the years - I can't recall a card I was like "**** yes!" that suddenly changed) or believe all the haters. I thought that when someone was placed up it was pretty much iron clad.
I say this because there are a lot of naysayers for Steam Augury. I hope this card sees print, it's awesome.
So far, Theros is turning into a good set for Type 4. Which means the cards will be cheap since everyone seems to be hating on them anyway? Question mark because who knows how the pricing goes these days.
@ DerBK:
Yeah, he is way too slow and I see you mis-read the card. I hate it when that happens. I remember doing that with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. :/
Sometimes what you thought was good turns to crap, or more embarrassing, you thought was crap really is gold and you've been blind the whole time. If it was back into play, I might need to think about it quite seriously.
Ashen Rider's dies trigger could be a draw back or it could be sweet, sweet revenge. If I add the Rider, who is strictly superior to Angel of Despair, I think I would need to cut a Killer Creature instead of digging out more. Well, Necrotic Sliver is on the Chopping Block so that would be my first cut.
Since I am removing all vanilla creatures due to their now power irrelevance (Crush of Wurms and Army of the Damned being exceptions because they're lethal next turn and sheer numbers makes Spot Removal not as strong - Flashback doesn't hurt), I think I could cut Riptide Replicator for our next Wrath-Mans.
The original reason why I kept the deck in its proportions is to copy Menendian's Type 4. I made slight changes to proportions based off of my own taste and years of play. I don't think I can add any more creature-based removal without removing someone.
I'm glad I called a Monstrous Wrath and we're starting to see some interesting Bestow creatures. I hope my call of a worthy Bestow is also there.
Dissolve is another possibility but it is a card that I wouldn't hunt down. I think it is better than Discombobulate and I'm uncertain on the strength of Dromar's Charm. Being able to recur or search for two blue cards can be very powerful.
No Bestow worth adding, we'll see for the rest of the block.
I cracked a Thoughtseize which let me get into trade range for the Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. When I listed Necrotic Sliver as my weakest removal creature I knew that the Gyre would be a replacement. I am placing him on the Watchlist by principle. He's one of the cray-cray Eldrazi; however, considering there are numerous Indestructible creatures and his effect is "only" Vindicate I think he'll be fine - especially with the Cast stipulation and nuking your own yard.
My conversation a page ago about the lack of Combat Tricks in my stack made me realize how little blocking goes on. Also, the amount of Masicore effects have significantly gone down with the necessity of -1/-1 (Consume Ooze) or Exile (Dark Impostor). This means that Stuffy Dolll hasn't been pulling its weight in a long time, it just took me a long time to realize that this Combo has significantly lost its teeth. Colossus of Akros almost replaced Darksteel Colossus but this discovery made me axe Stuffy Doll.
Meddling Kids was a fun experiment that I do not understand what they do. Lord of the Void just happens to replace him with an effect I quite understand. I can't wait until I see someone choose a less powerful creature just so the more crazy ones stay Exiled.
Flowstone Slide has merits but I think Exile, even if it has to dodge Protection and Shroud/Hexproof is worthwhile. None of the Indestructibles have that and while Slide would deal with them, Slide couldn't handle any Kamahl, Fist of Krosa effect. Curse of the Swine will make some relevant bodies irrelevant.
I wouldn't run Relearn and I know Vanilla bodies are worthless so Izzet Chronarch happens to take the bullet this time around. Molten Primordial, while initially skeptical, makes me think that this will be a blow out play. At the very worst, its a Hasted Craw Wurm. With the amount of removal in the format, Haste is a very relevant keyword.
Intuition has not been pulling its weight for a long time now, but due to the power of card draw it has stayed in the stack until Wizards printed a good Instant card draw. It took a while but Steam Augury fits the bill. I also like Steam Augury because of the mini-game, I think it is a lot less complicated than Fact or Fiction but still rewarding.
I also made some formatting changes on the 'splash' page. I reversed the Change Log as I realized that people would want to read about the most recent changes first instead of slugging through a list.
I removed Transcendent Master from my Wants list. It wasn't as flashy as I wanted and turned out to be a giant pain to find. I also passed up numerous opportunities to trade for Obzedat's Aid because I am unsure if it is worth casting. Rise of the Dark Realms places a lot of doubt on the viability of recursion. An archtype that has been taking a beating over years suddenly gets a big boost and now I don't know which spells can wear the big boy pants.
I also did a serious look at Djinn Illuminatus who I had in the deck previously but removed because of how dangerous he is. I wanted to take an honest look at the Djinn, so I looked over all the various combos.
I didn't add cards like Fact or Fiction to the list where you'll only Copy 3 or 4 times because otherwise it'd be suicidal because I didn't think it would be an Overwhelming Advantage. I would not want too much Overwhelming Advantage where we've got to wait around for the Djinn player to win without the instant kills of Burn.
Overwhelming Advantage means you should win right there, but I can foresee situations where perhaps you don't have it. Lack of targets, lack of synergy or something goes wrong. I would say that 95% of the time, Overwhelming Advantage should win, but who knows how long that would take.
I was unsure if I should add Tsabo's Decree to Overwhelming Advantage, you only kill every creature and strip all creatures from all opponent's hands. It probably places you in the winner's circle but you still need to kill them all.
Infinite creatures, as I have found, can be dealt with. I don't care how many times you Copy Crush of Wurms - I have the answer or I don't.
The other effect of the Djinn is you always win the counter war.
I do want to try him out, but I see banning a card as a failure. It is important to find out the boundaries of what is acceptable before it becomes a giant mess on the floor. I remember being disappointed with Wizards whenever they have to ban a card - I think Skullclamp is fun, why are you removing this from existence when I have the card? I am still unsure if I should get this sly bastard.
The other thing that made me change my tune is my conversation with a friend about Riptide Replicator and Chimeric Staff. I've come to the conclusion that Infinite Power or Infinite Creatures is fine, Vanilla is not - hence the removal of Wurmcalling and Chimeric Staff. They can be chumped or destroyed as a by-product (I think of Wraths as Spot Removal, you destroy what you want and accidentally kill other things). Staff is also very vulnerable in being both types that have the most amount of "Destroy Target" available.
He made a point about my surprise that Shroud is useful on Kalonian Behemoth. His argument on Riptide Replicator is that it is a form of Shroud. You can chump or kill the tokens all day, but you need multiple answers to deal with the Riptide Replicator. You need a Wrath or a body that can block all day. If you don't, you lose. Destroy Target Artifact does not deal with my X/X and if you've got an answer for that too, I just 2-for-1'd you with a Vanilla creature.
With this in mind, I'm going to keep a close eye on Riptide Replicator and see how it performs with this new paradigm.
Cubetutor isn't fully updated because I guess they haven't ripped the Theros images yet. Once they do, I'll add in my Theros update.
Also, I have a Woodfall Primus but I don't know which kill creature (or something else) to remove. Some suggestions would be very much welcome.
I've got a Woodfall Primus I am having trouble finding a creature to remove for, so I don't know how well a Disenchant would stack up against that. In fact, one of my last cuts has been to remove Relic Crush. I think that Relic Crush is unlikely to be useful because it is rare to have more than two noncreature permanents on the board.
I know you were probably looking at just Instant-Speed Destruction but I like a more holistic approach. I have very few Instant-Speed Disenchants but I find that the amount I have is fine because of the amount of other 'accidental destruction' available which can double duty as a Wrath that you want to destroy an Enchantment/Artifact and as a bonus gets rid of opposing creatures as well.
Looking at the pure Disenchants, excluding the Mortify/Putrefy, I have to stack Scry 2 versus: Draw 1 Card, Draw 2 Cards, Flashback, Exile (or Exile 2 if Sorcery), Tuck, Split Second and give 3/3 (but any permanent). The only Disenchant that might be worth replacing is Slice in Twain but I prefer Card Draw over Scry. I do think that Scry 2 is almost as good as Draw 1; however, it is my preference for Draw that might make that choice.
Furthermore, in the case of the Woodfall Primus I can't think of a creature to replace him with. I don't want to oversaturate answers to noncreature threats, which I already aided with the removal of Relic Crush.
Played a few games the other day, more random analysis:
I cannot play a Combo deck. I normally see Combo as the strongest, but I had many players just flat out attack me over any other target. It could be the problem of 3 players in where they choose to play Kingmaker and kill me. Normally, Combo sits back and then wins because they look relatively innocent. Either I need to pick up my draft skills or play more Aggro/Control.
This could also be a sign that Combo is now the weakest archetype and really needs a Djinn Illuminatus to balance the scales.
When we drafted, another player commented that Back from the Brink was terrible and should be removed. After seeing Guild Feud in action, I think it has found the wrong deck. In fact, after seeing Guild Feud in action, I think I see a new archetype. The issue with the lack of graveyards could be the overaggressive nature of my stack - there isn't a time to build up a huge 'yard.
Guild Feud puts cards into graveyards, enabling all sorts of graveyard shenanigans, such as Back from the Brink. Guild Feud was very entertaining and if it wasn't a low pick on the third pack, but a high pick from the first pack (I don't think its 1st pick worthy), then you could build a deck around it (simply lots of Creatures with Effects.dec). Lurking Predators and "Ach Hans Run" could complete the deck.
Speaking of those two Enchantments, Lurking Predators is great even if it whiffs 50% of the time. I felt a great pressure to make sure each of my spells counted, I even saw the player keep cards at the top of his library using it very much like a Scry mechanic. Ach Hans Run has last picked, last pack to the Guild Feud player due to him saying he hated the card. At the end of the games, I think he likes it now because he can call forth creatures to smash face.
Baneful Omen finally saw a lot of play because I made sure to cast it every time I got the chance. Now I understand why it sees so little play: it might be too good. Tower of Fortunes or Leyline of Anticipation might get hated on because they're good, Baneful Omen actively draws hate as players rush to kill you because you kill them. I think it would be a great Win-Con of a No.dec type, full of Counters, Wraths and Removal because you just got to stop players and the Omen will take care of them. Its a card that should only be played in a position of power, as the whole table will turn on you. While Baneful Omen is powerful, I don't know if I like the whole, "its only good when you're winning".
Despite all of these very powerful Enchantments, the majority of them got dealt with or they were ignored to our peril. I find that there is enough Disenchants in the Cube for now.
Angel of Serenity made an appearance in one game and I am uncertain about her. She's easy to kill so removing opponents creatures or creatures in graveyards seems counterproductive. You're giving them an incentive to kill her. I think you would choose your own dead creatures as a threat to not kill her, lest whatever you've got comes back for a second round.
True to my friend's analysis of "no one cares about a Regrowth", All Suns' Dawn resolved every time it got back one or two cards. Removing the Izzet Chronarch was a good call and now I'm sort of questioning All Suns' Dawn's validity, but it could be that the player strategically knew that All Suns' for 4 or 5 gets countered so just going for slight CA was good (he almost always got a Counterspell back).
Finally, I am thinking of adding Polukranos, World Eater because while it cannot keep going Infinite, it is a Wrath with Infinite Power once. That should be powerful. The argument a friend presented was that it represents the ultimate win condition: You Monstrosity the turn you swing, kill their blockers and kill them. You have Counterbackup because you have not cast your spell yet.
Edit:
Oh yeah, I stumbled across another card I'm ashamed I didn't quite read correctly: Grave Betrayal.
Creatures are going to die and then you're going to have creatures. It seems like a lot less hoops to jump through than other Reanimation I have in my stack. Anyone else's experience with Grave Betrayal?
Ugh, had a huge paragraph written out and I lost it. Oh well, lets see how much of it I can remember to write again...
Yeah, I don't think Artisan's Sorrow fits into your stack, although it would be alright in mine. I am thinking about switching it with Return To Dust, which leads me to my second point and what does Return to Dust do for you? You have little to no way to return any artifacts/enchantments and your graveyard hate is fairly numerous so is the exile really needed? Is it just another (narrower) way to get rid of the Collossii (The large indestructible artifact creatures)? Shouldn't the creature removal suite be able to handle that?
I am also unhappy with the state of Back From the Brink in my stack. Whenever I have seen it played there hasn't been enough creatures to make use of it, and the other times it has been useful there has been a global wrath that removes the BftB and all the tokens so you are down so many resources. If you rip anything graveyard based after it you feel depressed. I much prefer Marshall's Anthem as it has the same amount of threat value, but without the loss of cards if something goes wrong.
While I think Polukranos, World Eater is a great card and may have a good home in your stack, I don't want to put it in mine. I just have a thing against a card that is both a One-Hit KO and a wrath. Due to the randomness nature of my communal stack one can't reliably survive this in middish game. At least all the other OHKO's let you throw bodies in front of them to give you hope of finding an answer. This one just 'eats' those dreams (and the world, apparently).
Lastly, while I have not got Grave Betrayal in my stack, I have played it a fair bit in commander and it is pretty sweet. It might require some finesse in playing it though as if you play it too early you get no value from it (as it will just die) and if you play it too late you will probably just die from the creatures you are hoping to get
Could be a sweet draft card though as you can prioritise wraths and the like to build around it. I have a card similar in my stack (Prince of Thralls) and he has been doing alright. He is just a general 7/7 dork but it gives you some wrath insurance and playing him late game on a full board is quite the game changer. He is too weak for your stack, but he has been impressing me for a random throw in.
I like all your adds from Theros and am looking at pretty much the same cards. I probably rely way too much on your ideas for your stack but I slowly heading in my own direction. Plus after moving to a new town where the magic scene is pretty small it is nice to have a quick easy game of Type 4 where everyone can be on the same playing field and get the used to some of the older cards/keywords. Also helps the understand the game mechanics better in a fun relaxing setting.
I have Grave Betrayal in my stack. It has resolved a couple of times when another player was the "clear threat" at the table. The player who resolved Grave Betrayal then became "threat B," as "threat A" would get dealt with only to have "threat B" take over. Hope that makes sense. Anyway, it has been a good card. Sometimes it is easy to think that a card needs to affect the board when you play it, but cards like this are nice because they are both powerful and can fly under the radar at times.
@ PetalCollector:
Your analysis makes sense, I kind of like that distinction actually. If Player A's permanents are dealt with, you still have to deal the Grave Betrayal Player. It flies under the radar is people are playing non-threatening creatures but a few random spot removal and suddenly the random batch of creatures are under one player's control. Nifty.
@ Kirblinx:
I was trying to think of why Return to Dust over any other brand but it made me think about Ray of Distortion and how many non-Creature Permanents I have as threats. Looking at my non-Creature Permanent list, there's 48 currently listed. I was looking at the visual spoiler when I realized that 9 of those cards are Lands, meaning there are only 39 targets for Disenchants with 9 Artifact creatures available on top of this (there are 11 in actuality, but the other two are a Clone and Shroud creatures - Phyrexian Metamorph/Inkwell Leviathan).
This is probably why Sharuum the Hegemon felt weak: there's slightly more than 10% of the deck as an available target. That's if you drafted every non-Creature. That's if you drew those cards. That's if your non-Creature Permanent which isn't a land made its way into your 'yard without getting exiled. And that's if its even an Artifact anyway.
I remember from our last game I drafted Ray of Distortion and was pleased that I got one use out of it. It sat in my graveyard many a time and I tried to tell myself that I had a backup in case something came up. I was ready. Frequently, there wasn't another game-breaking Enchantment/Artifact that came up: I falsely told myself that I was prepared on that front while in reality there wasn't a second borken Noncreature Permamnent. You usually only have time to play one.
I guess that's why Back from the Brink is problematic. If you only have time to play one Broken Noncreature Permanent, because it leaves you very vulnerable, then it better count. You haven't played a Body, so you can't threaten or defend yourself.
I should probably be cutting a Disenchant and replace Back from the Brink. It may be amazing if you have a full 'yard; however, you would need to go into a long game for that to be a back breaking play. Reliance is rearing its ugly head. Depending on what Bestow cards are made, I might change my mind but currently it doesn't look that way.
So while you think that Return to Dust might be the weakest, it might be another pet card of mine that gets the axe instead (I love Instants with Flashback). In comparison to the other two (Mystical Teachings and Fervent Denial), I cannot say with certainty that I will be casting Ray of Distortion whenever I get the opportunity, unlike a Tutor or Counter.
While there isn't many ways to recur Artifacts and Enchantments, your analysis of "it gets rid of Colossii" is spot on. Hell, I'm sure you'd be pretty happy to remove and never see again Memnarch or Etched Montrosity (possible draw engine/its a goddamned 10/10), as well.
I was considering Prince of Thralls when I first saw him, but I never went out got one. I don't know why. It is a fairly threatening body and the effect is nice.
@ Commander 2013 Spoiler: Unexpectedly Absent is impressive spot removal. As far as I'm concerned, it reads: Put target permanent on the bottom of their deck. I already run Banishing Stroke and this is more flexible, allowing you to Memory Lapse a card or just choose a low number as a form of politics - "You can't have the Cookie now, after dinner."
Baleful Force is looking pretty good to me. It probably won't survive too many upkeeps, and I know people who gladly pay any life to Yawgmoth's Bargain or Grislebrand. This is far more immediate than Bringer of the Blue Dawn whose 5/5 body stopped being impressive a long time ago. In fact, Bringer is one of those cards I am trying to get on the chopping block, but the fact that Card Draw is King makes it impossible. Enter Baleful Force as a replacement, perhaps.
Price of Knowledge another aggro-enchantment? I kind of like it but its a Baleful Omen variant - I'm uncertain how to proceed. Causing that much hate is not desirable, but you don't have time to make friends. It also could be too slow. They take maybe 10 damage and you're dead, leaving it as a slugging match between the survivors.
Bane of Progress is a card at first glance I liked but now I have reservations. In my Type 4, it would maybe be a 3/3, 4/4 if you're lucky. In my Kamahl EDH, he would blow up my very friendly Artifact/Enchantments - I don't mind a [c]Molder Slug/c] but I would need to build around it. Bane just hates everything, despite saying that Gotham is Yours.
Gahiji, Honored One is funny but I doubt the +2 improvement will steer people away.
Nekusar, the Mindrazer just helped your opponents for an inconsequential amount of damage. Just enough to hurt their feelings, but don't worry. They have cards to deal with you now.
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic is cool but way to damned slow (unless I errata Command Zone also includes Exile Zone, but I'm not a fan of Exile). Make a Pillowfort EDH if I get him, I guess....
Eye of Doom is a nifty way to Wrath the board without pissing people off... Waitaminute, I want to destroy their crap because its going to have its way with me. I think it would be a fun card in a slower, more permanents on the board Stack/Cube.
These three seem like the best bets; there are definitely some interesting options though, as you outlined. Is there some sort of resource where there is a Type 4 set overview for each set? Seems like it would be a good reference for updating/changing the nature of a stack.
Since this forum gets more discussion than mine I thought it would be better to post my thoughts on the BotG spoilers for Type 4.
Fated Retribution
I like me some instant speed mass removal. It works even better in my communal stack due to giving you a reason to cast this on your own turn (see what opponents are going to draw). Not sure if it makes the cut though due to all other mass removal giving better effects Decree of Pain, Merciless Eviction etc.
Arbiter of the Ideal
Seems cool, just a shame that inspired takes WAY too long to be useful. Would be alright for low-powered stacks.
Perplexing Chimera
Seems like a very interesting chaos card. Trying to entice the trade with average spells.I want to give this a test run but it may be way too annoying to keep in the stack. I like cards that can produce mind games.
Tromokratis
A large sometimes hexproof and sometimes unblockable creature seems pretty stackable. May be a little too bland to be considered and considering most removal is instant the hexproof is largely irrelevent.
Champion of Stray Souls
May be a bit too slow but being able to upgrade your squad or abuse ETB effects seems pretty strong. The fact that he has his own way of getting out of the graveyard is just gravy. I may give him a run.
Fated Return
The most obvious casual card in Born of the Gods and almost certainly a Type 4 staple. Being able to steal a creature from anyone's graveyard AND make it indestructible sounds like all sorts of a beating.
Those are the only ones that seems to look appealing to me. Not too many but you can't expect too much from a small set.
Since this forum gets more discussion than mine I thought it would be better to post my thoughts on the BotG spoilers for Type 4.
Fated Retribution
I like me some instant speed mass removal. It works even better in my communal stack due to giving you a reason to cast this on your own turn (see what opponents are going to draw). Not sure if it makes the cut though due to all other mass removal giving better effects Decree of Pain, Merciless Eviction etc.
Arbiter of the Ideal
Seems cool, just a shame that inspired takes WAY too long to be useful. Would be alright for low-powered stacks.
Perplexing Chimera
Seems like a very interesting chaos card. Trying to entice the trade with average spells.I want to give this a test run but it may be way too annoying to keep in the stack. I like cards that can produce mind games.
Tromokratis
A large sometimes hexproof and sometimes unblockable creature seems pretty stackable. May be a little too bland to be considered and considering most removal is instant the hexproof is largely irrelevent.
Champion of Stray Souls
May be a bit too slow but being able to upgrade your squad or abuse ETB effects seems pretty strong. The fact that he has his own way of getting out of the graveyard is just gravy. I may give him a run.
Fated Return
The most obvious casual card in Born of the Gods and almost certainly a Type 4 staple. Being able to steal a creature from anyone's graveyard AND make it indestructible sounds like all sorts of a beating.
Those are the only ones that seems to look appealing to me. Not too many but you can't expect too much from a small set.
The only one that stands out to me is Fated Return. Instant speed reanimation is quite awesome. The scry part kinda makes it worthwhile to play at sorcery, especially if the rest of your deck is already instant speed.
Easily replaces the Miraculous Recovery that has been in my stack for too long.
Another release and another chance for me to see what it has for type 4.
Here is my (attempt) at a type 4 Journey Into Nyx (p)review.
Decided to throw it in the spoiler box to save room as it was getting pretty long.
Hour of Need
Another 'Curse of the Swine' variant but at instant speed. Exiles problematic creatures and can even possibly upgrade your team. Pretty tempted to run it. It is definitely going into my peasant cube, that is for sure but probably can't cut it in type 4.
Hypnotic Siren
Another Spirited Away that leaves behind a dorky 1/1 after it dies. Most sorcery speed control is pretty weak in type 4 (says the person running Yavimaya's Embrace) but I can see some people running it.
Interpret the Signs Heed the Mists was already a pretty sweet card in my communal stack. This is just strictly better than it. Did like the randomness factor of Heed the Mist more as it makes it less powerful (drawing cards is king in type 4). Will probably give it a run and see how it goes.
Polymorphous Rush
Made me think to try Mirrorweave as a card in my type 4 as it can do some absurd things. This is probably too weak considering you can only target your own creatures.
Silence the Believers
Another instant multi-exile card. Pretty good if you ask me. Don't know what I would replace to put it into my stack but a pretty solid removal spell.
Bearer of the Heavens
Seems like the poster child for type 4. Will probably throw it in so people can see something new that they understand. Not spectacular but big and splashy that most of my players will like.
Dictate of the Twin Gods
Instant speed you die? Probably a little too much of a double-edged sword but will always be taking someone out of the game when it comes down. Doesn't promote the type of gameplay I want for my stack but still really cool.
Harness by Force Insurrection v0.8. If you like Insurrection or think it is a little bit too powerful this downgrade might be up your alley. Same as dictate of the gods for me that it promotes gameplay that I don't want for my stack.
Twinflame
A lot like Polymorphous Rush but in stead of upgrading your army for the swing doubles your army instead. Could be good but requires you to have at least 2 creatures on the board for it to be worthwhile. A little too much work for it to be worthwhile.
Hydra Broodmaster
Infinite army in a can (at instant speed no less). Everyone dies if this survives a whole rotation. Way too powerful for me.
Fleetfeather Cockatrice
This card let me go undefeated in the prerelease and being a flash, flying, deathtouch 6/6 seems quite playable in type 4. Will find a way to squeeze him in as a pet card to see how he goes (plus the art is awesome).
Much better than Born of the Gods in terms of card quality for type 4 (and just in general). Changing at least 3 cards this set. Looking forward to conspiracy. Think it will have a couple of sweet cards for type 4.
It's been a long time since I updated this thread. I drifted away from the hobby, I am still apart in fact. Then MTG Salvation changed and this new mode seems a lot more inconvenient to search up cards. There are random cards that just don't appear in the search indexing, such as Unexpectedly Absent and Reassmbling Skeletons. I understand the drive for a more business-oriented website but it seemed to sacrifice some flexibility.
I've mostly updated my wants. Haven't changed anything in the stack. As I said, I've been away. The cards I would be interested in are: Born of the Gods Fated Retribution Fated Infatuation - Fastest least constrictive Clone in the book? Fated Return - Finally, something to replace Miraculous Recovery Chromanticore - With Bestow not fizzling if killed in response, replace Phantom Nishoba
Out of Conspiracy, the only card that I'd be interested in is Backup Plan. I like the idea of Conspiracies, since they really cater for the Cuber in Magic, but the options aren't outright ridiculous.] - where Type 4 is. The problem with Backup Plans is it would become the outright top pick out of the entire stack, essentially everyone draws 4 and then you draw 7, choosing to keep the 7. The voting mechanics are also very interesting but then I realized the choices are the least powerful. Another opposite of what I'm attempting to achieve.
Another card I'm thinking of adding to the Chopping Block is Overwhelming Forces. The issue is errata. The card implies that it is all players but errata has you only choose one. I don't want to have to explain cards at all, like why I cut Dwarven Catapult. The reason why I'm putting more thought into this cut over another (as I doubt most players are intimate with Portal Errata) is that Overwhelming Forces is an expensive card that could get me a lot of trade bait!
As for very overdue replies, well... I'm sorry for the tardiness. Here we go:
@ HeitisjeboiM: Good stuff, nice to see that you're still foiling up your stack. I wonder how much more you've gotten?
@ umtiger: I might have had Academy Ruins in my stack at one point. I started this stack back in Kamigawa era, so I've been working on it for... HOLY CRAP! 10 years. Yeah, there's a lot that's been taking in and out. The issue I currently have is Reanimation is pretty weak and the amount of artifacts are smaller than creatures. Hell, Sharuum the Hegemon had to be cut and he's a beastly dude.
@ kirblinx:
Completely agree with you on Fated Retribution, hence in my list as well.
Arbiter of the Ideal is a low powered stack pick, so out of my range. The fighty creatures can outbox this guy and the effect isn't that impressive when you're trying to use his body. Memodai the Ageless promises another turn if he survives, the Arbiter is only cheating a permanent into play. I think my stack is too aggressive for that.
Perplexing Chimera is a funny counterspell, but that's why I've got Common Courtesy in my stack. A pre-emptive counter. I do like it, I think the effect is cute but it's too easy for "I guess I gain control of the Wrath that is killing me?"
Tromokratis is bland and 'spot removal' is in the form of counters. Also, it's only unblockable unless all my creatures block it, which can easily just be one.
Champion of Stray Souls has reliance. I'm relying on having other creatures for him to sac and that's not going to make me win. Also, Tap effects give me the hives. I only have two Tap creatures and I think they're worth it: Ertai, Wizard Adept and Arcanis the Omnipotent.
I was tempted to add Interpret the Signs but it is Sorcery speed draw, even if it is ridiculous it would be hard to justify in my mind. You use instants to shore up weaknesses by drawing or removal, your Sorcery-speed spells need to be to establish board position. Technically, a hand is board position, as they see your mitt, but I'm uncertain. It's a super weak maybe in my eyes.
Worst Fears is a lot worse than Mindslaver so I'm not going to include it. It is far easier to have Worst Fears backfire with Copying, counter, redirect, gain control. Then it gets Exiled, so the chance of abuse is tiny. Mindslaver can be set up and that's what I like.
Bearer of Heavens is too unreliable for me. I do like your assessment of 'something new people will understand'. That's not my goal but I like it more than screaming baby Child of Alara.
As much as I want to say I want manliest Type 4 around, I am shy around 'screw the world' effects. Sure, Dictate of the Twin Gods can kill one player unexpectedly but then it gets dangerous.
Twimflame can kill your own Legends and I've already got some scary Sorcery-speed token creation of stuff that sticks around. Pass for me.
Hydra Broodmaster was under consideration but I banned Selesnya Guildmage for infinite power and tokens. This guy seems a lot more manageable but more manageable of infinite is still a daunting task. It's under consideration but I think I'd want to use Polukranos, World Eater first. He eats everything, kills one player as he goes Monstrous on the swing but then the rest of the players have time to deal with him. Then again... My '1 card, 2 turns' is in effect and the reason why the Guildmage was removed because it handled too many answers. Infinite damage wouldn't kill the guildmage and his brood, killing everyone but the Guildmage would just result in another army-in-a-can... I think you might have convinced me to try the Broodmaster out... You monster
I was also tempted to try Fleetfeather Cockatrice but I thought he might be a little too weak. I guess he has the virtue of trading with anything and in colours that would rarely be protection-against.
I can't comment for medium power Type 4 as to whether either was good or not but I am interested in trying some Type 4 soon to get back into the swing of things.
Nice to see you back Tev!
I like to think I was keeping the thread nice and warm for your inevitable return.
Thanks for all the comments for all of my reviews, nice to get another perspective.
I seemed to have missed a couple of cards in my BotG review.
Fated Infatuation - I think I ignored because it seems inferior to Cackling Counterpart because they can only clone your own creatures and the flashback is better than sorcery speed scry.
Chromanticore - For an aggro card I feel it needs to be at least 5/5 or more to be worth it but I forgot to factor in it is mostly going to be +4/+4 lifelink, flying enchantment which is a huge swing. Having a mini-Akroma left over makes the card go from playable to good.
I mentioned it in one of my other posts but what do you think of Mirrorweave?
I only recently added it to my stack and has been quite the blowout everytime it has been played (Although I imagine it is hard to know when to use it). It is a very unique effect and I have difficulty trying to think of a comparison.
I chewed over Mirrorweave for a few days and I just can't figure out what it does. Scenarios that ran in my head: Used to cause indestructible creatures to not be weakened to a Wrath. Force creatures with escapes to GTFO so you can do something else. Exploit a certain vulnerability in a creature, like turn everything into Pro Black/Non-Pro Black during certain parts. It reeks with reliance. In your experience what does it actually do?
Also, I've had second thoughts of Feathered Cockatrice. It is a 6/6 Flying Deathtouch creature with Haste due to Flash. Not many creatures have Flying with Flash, it can unexpectedly show up to block or get an extra attacker down. Having a dude down, EOT Cockatrice and then your turn Haste critter can really wreck people's day. And it trades with any Non-Indestructible, Non-First Strike creature. I would argue that it is better than most of my Haste creatures so I think the Cocatrice deserves to be added to the stack.
Other big fatty Flash creatures didn't get my attention because they usually lacked Flight. Flash Trample in Green seemed to be a pretty common choice but Trample isn't good enough as ground pounders can get quite huge. Flight though? Flying is limited to a certain size category.
Also, another card I was considering that is also from Conspiracy is Advantageous Proclamation. With that Conspiracy, that's 6 cards less in your deck. Makes your deck much more reliable. I'm still on the fense about it and Backup Plan.
@ DerBK: Yeah, that's what I thought too but I want to hear Kirblinx's rebuttal.
I just saw that M15 has begun spoiling, so let's look at what they've got so far @ 58 Spoils:
Resolute Archangel - This card is nice in theory. If you're losing, it puts you back in the game. I dislike it. I prefer Magister Sphinx to reduce infinite life or bring yourself up. And I don't run the Sphinx.
Mercurial Pretender - I am unsure if this is worse than Sakashima the Impostor. Sakashima doesn't kill legends with his cloning; however, he lets you Clone Legends. What Mercurial Pretender has over Sakashima is that the Kamigawa Legend bounces EOT while the Pretender is immediate. This might be the case of a side-grade; however, I am wary of Clones as they usually don't have that much to target. Body Double's pool is theoretically larger, Dimir Doppelganger also does serious graveyard shenanigans and Phyrexian Metamorph hits artifacts as well. If I include the Pretender, I think I'd need to remove Sakashima.
Soul of Ravnica - For a moment I thought this was a neat card, but then I slapped myself and regained to my senses. There is a reason why all 'at will' card draw comes with a resource cost. Even Lim-Dul's Oath, which has theoretically brutal drawbacks won too many games. Mana to Draw to too powerful in Type 4, though Browse seems to be the right mix of drawback. 5 cards Exiled per use is pretty brutal.
Soul of Zendikar - 6/6 that poops out infinite 3/3s and then poops out one final 3/3 when dead. I'm not impressed. Oh, sure, it could go into the Type 4 stack on pure basis of infinite creatures but I feel that it's too plain for how good it is. This is a 'probably' but it just looks so vanilla. Or it could be that it is next to my definite pick for M15 so far:
Genesis Hydra - X/X that puts any creature from your deck into play. DONE! In fact, it might be too good but this fanciness is something I'm willing to try!
Perhaps I understated how good Soul of Zendikar is. It's good, really good. Probably a top-tier threat, I just read the Genesis Hydra first and that's why it paled in comparison in my mind. After all, the Hydra can fetch Zendikar if it wanted to but not the other way around. Though you do end up with Infinite Power no matter how you shake it.
Secondly, I decided to add Interpret the Signs to my Wants list. With the average mana curve and Scry 3, it should make it at worst equal to Tidings. At best, you should draw a lot of cards.
Finally, I discovered an interesting feature of the Cube Tutor website while I was looking at mana costs. It shows the top picked and top passed cards. This means what are definitely the best and the worst from drafts. I don't know if it is just me drafting or others, but it was definitely an eye opened on what cards to place on the Chopping Block.
Despite what I thought were decent or power picks, if they keep getting passed they cannot be that good. So, I majorly updated the Chopping Block. It'll make my life easier when I start updating the Cube again.
Edit - Extrapolating: Baneful Omen and Price of Knowledge are weak. Putting Omen on the Block and removing Price from my Wants. Other Enchantments are a straight up Win when it comes to dealing damage. Knollspine Invocation and Pyromancy has set the bar really high. Aladdin's Ring is safe because it is instantaneously, controllable and hits creatures. Furthermore, because Ring's on call, it's a reason not to screw with someone who has the Shotgun.
Shroud is not good enough of a mechanic. Perhaps that's just my preference, but I guess with Wrath being the bar that removal is set to, Kalonian Behemoth, Plated Slagwurm and Gaea's Revenge get very little love. I guess there are lots of Indestructible creatures that ignore the Wraths while these guys ignore the Spot Removal. I don't know if it is a meta-shift or keep them in for now.
Speaking of unkillable targets, Mist Dragon is another underpicked choice. I think that cards that won't die aren't threatening any more. There is no time to gain advantage through that. Other impossible to deal with cards are threatening in some fashion, such as Windreaver or Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang (requires two types of attacks).
This means that the reason why Graveyard manipulation is underwhelming is because "Ain't nobody got time for that". All Suns' Dawn, Back from the Brink, etc. Sedris, the Traitor King and Sheoldred, Whispering One remain off this list for some strange reason. I have a theory on Sheoldred's opponent upkeep triggers is enough of a reason and Sedris, despite the fact that graveyards don't build up too much, still has the opportunity to surprise people with a wave of attackers they're unprepared for. Windmill slam him turn after an Instant Wrath?
Just like no one has time for Graveyards, 'At the beginning of your upkeep' is problematic as well. Dominus of Fealty is too slow despite being very flexible. Sheoldred's Upkeep trigger is useful for yourself, no reliance on opponents and also keeps opponents down with her sacrifice triggers. This would explain why Guild Feud gets no love. I think Debtor's Knell escapes because of the flexibility, something is going to be a target, though I am feeling that Upkeep triggers might be too burdensome.
These types of triggers are a testament as to why only Arcanis the Omnipotentand Ertai, Wizard Adept are my sole Tappers. Counter and Draw on demand are superb. Kill comes easily with so many creatures that have pay mana for damage/death.
Reweave despite its uber-utility is underpicked to a ridiculous degree. It solves anything but it gives your opponent another threat. With Chaos Warp existing, it is time to retire Reweave. Ditto with Sway of the Stars. No one knows when the best time, if any, is to Sway so it should be removed from the Stack.
I guess I've underestimated my decision to be aggressive in how much it warps the Stack's meta. Two Card Combos and Firebreathing removes Control's incremental advantage. I guess my Stack's gone Aggro vs. Combo. It has swung away from 'Suffocating Control' and has gone on to a blitz-fest. The issue is that if I slow down the Aggro, Combo will dominate again. If I neuter Combo, then Control will stifle Aggro.
I think I'm going to have to accept Rocket Tag that is Type 4. Or I can add back in what I think are stupid Prison picks like Nullstone Gargoyle. Maybe a few more Shield of the Ages effects, though the easiest way to do so is with Infinite Life. Going Infinite means that Combo needs to go off and can't just squelch out a Chainer, Dementia Master/Siege-Gang Commander or Knollspine Invocation but need a card combo such as the classic "Glasticore" (Masticore/Glarecaster - in this case it'd need to be Olivia Voldaren). And Aggro would need to find a Firebreather instead of just overwhelm with big badasses.
Hmmm... So go for more Prison or make Infinite Life easier? With Infinite Life, Control would be able to establish board position and drain out with the slower cards, such as Baneful Omen or take advantage of Upkeep triggering permanents.
The problem with reanimation is you may not have any targets, this provides. It also continually recurs creatures or gives you extra draws. Lots of value. Perhaps my stack is too break neck, but if I slow it down, this might be very, very good. Anyone try it out?
Also, Grave Betrayal. I keep forgetting about this beast.
In regards to Mirrorweave, I only recently added it as something funny and it did a couple of cool things (making a dying creature a Mindslicer and making a Siege-Gang Commander and tokens into a swarm of Dragon Whelps) but since I didn't do it I don't know how long it had been in their hand and what other options they had with the card. I may have just been a little giddy about the new card I added.
However speaking of spoilers there is one card that interests me from Conspiracy: Dack's Duplicate. A haste clone seems pretty sweet, the dethrone is negligible. May not provide the versatility of all the other clones that are already good cards in Type 4 but you can't sneeze at an immediate threat, which this can provide.
I know what you are talking about with all the cards that do nothing when they come in (Debtor's Knell, Dominus of Fealty, Baneful Omen, etc.), I have also noticed that these cards are not as loved. I guess in type 4 you expect everything you cast to be flashy or stopping something flashy. These take a while to get rolling and before they do their thing they will probably just die to some mass removal. I have noticed this with Debtor's Knell especially as it is a card I am never scared of. I wouldn't be adding Deadbridge Chant just because of how similar it is to the Knell (except worse because you have no control over it).
I am still a big lover of shroud, it is doing great things. I still am scared of Kalonian Behemoth and helps fill out the big creature quota while being easy to understand. Maybe you need to cut back of some mass removal (or shift it to something like Silence the Believers to make them seem more relevant in your stack.
There is a bit too much content in these last three posts for me to digest it all at once. I will comment on the other topics in my next post (and so I don't repeat myself in the same post).
The point of Deadbridge Chant isn't to get the random recursion, that's just a very good benefit. The true purpose is like the old Reanimator decks that would Traumatize themselves and dump their 'yard into play. Type 4 is rocket tag where "obvious" power houses aren't getting play because no one has time to build up an impressive 'yard. Deadbridge Chantdoes. Suddenly, 1/4th of your deck (draft 3 packs of 15) is in the yard and you can take advantage of that with lots of reanimation (there isn't so much Reanimate Enemy but more Reanimate Self). If Deadbridge gets instantly iced like every other Upkeep triggering permanents, well it still did something.
Looking at the Legend rule again, and now I feel my scrubby casual shame of not remembering the rule change: If we both put down the same Legend, neither gets blown up. This means the entire purpose of Sakashima the Impostor is pointless. This means a Clone needs to replace him and while I think Dack's Duplicate is interesting with haste but Mercurial Pretender has more potential. The Clone department is already in fierce competition due to how little there usually is to Clone (with 2-3 permanents out, it's hard to justify). Phyrexian Metamorph already gets brownie points for being able to Clone an Artifact and Vesuvan Shapeshifter can transform into bigger and badder targets (if it lives). The Bounce in Pretender, in my eyes, makes it the most survivable.
Perhaps I should cut the Vesusvan Shapeshifter as well for Dack's Duplicate due to the aggressive nature of Hasted Clones. What is clear is that Sakashima no longer pulls his weight, sadly. Another Cube Starter bites the dust. Body Double is arguably the best Clone. If someone spent resources making sure a creature was dead, then Cloning that can't be bad.
I think you're right in that I should remove traditional Wraths in favour of Instant Speed Mass Wraths such as Silence the Believers, the issue is that my Stack is designed to be drafted and Control is currently the weakest option. I don't want to take more away from them.
Edit: Mercurial Pretender only Clones your own creatures. D'oh! Well, time to just look at Dack's Duplicate.
With Who/What/Where/Why/How, I have trouble adding the ultimate Control power of infinite life. After that, it's hard to justify Alabaster Potion it its' ilk. Ancestral Tribute used to be in the stack but rocket tag made it hard to justify casting, drafting or even having a yard to play off of. I think I've found an answer but I'm not too sure on how ridiculous broken this is. It doesn't win you the game but it puts you pretty damned far ahead.
You can't go to infinite life, you do draw a lot of cards and gain a lot of life. Sphinxing for 20 would make you the number one threat but at that point, you become the classic control deck. Everyone bands against you for the kill. I'm contemplating it, as Control is unable to keep to the rocket tag level without a sudden overwhelming advantage. It seems to just be combo tries to find the pieces before the aggro player kills them.
Another card I just came across while using the Gatherer Search is Brightflame. It is targetted removal at Sorcery speed, but it gains you X life. Pin point with Red, so relatively lot of protections against this but it sets up for Infinite Life. I'm fine with the Instant Speed Who and this is Sorcery speed. Hell, it's easier to counter as well. I'm going to give this some serious thought.
I still find it hard with your cube to understand where control sits. As I don't understand how it wins. Most of the ways I see is a combo-esque finish but then how do you distinguish it from combo?
Sphinx's Revelation I can see as a boon for combo as it digs you deep to get the pieces and get the counterspell backup all at instant speed. Remember why you banned Treasure Trove? Sphinx's Rev does the same thing except you can cast it when everyone is 'spelled out' for the turn.
Have you ever had a game where someone has had infinite life before? What is the dynamic of the game when that occurs? Does everyone work together to take them down? Do they just ignore them? I am curious to find out. I am not game enough to do infinite life in my stack due to the randomness of the draws no one knows if they have a chance of killing them. At least in the draft environment people know they have a firebreather in their deck and have to find it, resolve it and swing with it which seems like a lot of hoops you have to correctly jump through to get the kill.
A couple of posts ago you mentioned some of the cards in my stack that may help for control. I want to extrapolate how I see them in my stack:
Nullstone Gargoyle: Yes it is the stupid prison card where it makes people not do anything. There is always a collective groan when it come out. It is a very unique effect though and happy it is in there. Changes the game dymanic every time it comes out. Alliances are made to deal with it or everyone just starts dropping dudes which is a nice change of pace to have more than 3 creatures on board before they get wrathed away, so this makes it quite the ideal aggro card.
Empyrial Archangel: A great card and one of aggro's major problems. A 5 powered flyer with psuedo-vigilance that protects you against burn spells is pretty sweet. Fairly hilarious when it gets cloned. Gives its controller some nice breathing room when it is in play which I guess is what control wants.
Vengeful Archon: Usually never lives long is usually just a 7/7 flyer that dies pretty suddenly. Ability is some nice insurance but it never sticks around long enough to be used.
Soul Conduit: One of my favourite cards in my stack. Highly political card that usually only gets its activation once. Also thinking of adding Reverse the Sands as larger one-shot life swapper, the sorcery speed hurts it though. If you are adding the infinite life gain then I would definitely add these jsut to give more options against it.
Also I was looking at your list for the control cards and noticed Eight-and-a-half-tails. What role does this card provide? I've noticed that cards that help other creatures aren't great due to the imminent wrath. Is it there for aggro to help push through? Or for combo to help set up?
Yes, Infinite Life is a common occurrence in the deck. You just need people tapped out and sling out Who/What/Where/Why/When's life gain. Also, there are a few combos that lead to Infinite Life, the easiest one off the top of my head is Miren, the Moaning Well and any Toughness Pumper like Crowd Favorites. What happens at that point is everyone looks around the table and proceed to play a game of Archenemy where they fight the Infinite Life player together, with Aggro players hoping not to be comboed out. It is a very unique feeling. And if they beat the Infinite Life, the proceed to demolish each other.
Essentially, spells that were unacceptable to resolve suddenly become necessary. At that point, you've got a very dangerous game and that is interesting to me. Though I do think I really removed a lot of the "No" Control elements, perhaps I should reintroduce them. All four of your recommendations are slapped into the Wants table.
Eight-And-A-Half-Tails is protection for combo and aggro. It slices through control elements by bypassing blockers, ignoring targeting and damage. I don't know if he's better or worse than Avacyn, Angel of Hope who makes things flat out indestructible but it is unique. Speaking of which, the new M15 Avacyn looks good.
M15 Spoils @ 184: Avacyn, Guardian Angel - She's a side grade to Combat Medic, as she can attack and defend while determining if anyone should get damaged. She's slightly weaker because she relies on colors and targets while the Medic can just place Infinite Shields. Definite inclusion.
Soul of Theros - Infinite Power and Lifelink. I think it makes a perfect aggro/control piece. The Graveyard effect is merely icing on the cake.
In Garruk's Wake - I might not include this in my Type 4, as I don't include Planeswalkers but it is another Wrath that leaves your own men alone. That aspect alone makes it Type 4 worthy, it is a shame that it has effectively outclassed Plague Wind though.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - One of the strongest subarchtypes is "Search.dec" where you run any and every tutor you can draft, followed by good cards. You spend your turns continually getting your best threats and laying them on the board. As people expend resources to get rid of the threats, you're going for the next one. That fact alone makes this a serious consideration, even if I find that it is not that good in a vaccuum. It's a meta pick. I'm unsure if that is worth adding but it makes it a strong Control card.
Soul of Innistrad - Slight consideration for this card, just as it can keep your guys kicking around no matter how many of them you've spent. And then it has an extra surprise once its done. Probably too weak but I noticed this Soul.
Soul of New Phyrexia - I'm unsure if this is better than Deathless Angel. She Flies while this Tramples. She's tougher while it's stronger. The Graveyard effect is what got me initially intrigued. Her greatest limitation is she only protects creatures while this protects everything you've got. I am unsure if it would replace that Angel or stand nearby. This is a very strong pick.
Sultai Charm is a maybe. It gives you bad card draw at the worst, and a very narrow kill spell including artifact/enchantment destruction. To me, this is the most conflicting card. Outside of the 1st Wrath I have listed, the others have merits in my Cube. This card, I'm unsure. It's flexible enough but not much of a power house.
Fourth Card: Steam Augury
My draw selection, especially at Instant Speed, is really crappy. Intuition has been on the Chopping Block for a long time now but nothing has measured up at Instant Speed to warrant the change. Steam Augury is better because its going to nab you at least 2 cards but maybe up for 4. Personally, I only see splitting this 3-2 with the two best cards in the 2 slot unless I go for major card advantage by going 4-1 when 1 is a back breaking bomb like Tooth and Nail, Rise of the Dark Realms or Decree of Silence.
Yeah, Steam Augury isn't going to let you search but its going to fill your 'yard and dig deeper into your deck.
Also, something I didn't realize by the MTGSalvation Discussion forum doesn't seem to think anything is real if it is posted in the Theros Spoiler. I don't know whether to doubt the Spoilers (which have consistently been excellent over the years - I can't recall a card I was like "**** yes!" that suddenly changed) or believe all the haters. I thought that when someone was placed up it was pretty much iron clad.
I say this because there are a lot of naysayers for Steam Augury. I hope this card sees print, it's awesome.
So far, Theros is turning into a good set for Type 4. Which means the cards will be cheap since everyone seems to be hating on them anyway? Question mark because who knows how the pricing goes these days.
@ DerBK:
Yeah, he is way too slow and I see you mis-read the card. I hate it when that happens. I remember doing that with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. :/
Sometimes what you thought was good turns to crap, or more embarrassing, you thought was crap really is gold and you've been blind the whole time. If it was back into play, I might need to think about it quite seriously.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Fifth and Sixth: Hythonia the Cruel and Ashen Rider
Ashen Rider's dies trigger could be a draw back or it could be sweet, sweet revenge. If I add the Rider, who is strictly superior to Angel of Despair, I think I would need to cut a Killer Creature instead of digging out more. Well, Necrotic Sliver is on the Chopping Block so that would be my first cut.
Since I am removing all vanilla creatures due to their now power irrelevance (Crush of Wurms and Army of the Damned being exceptions because they're lethal next turn and sheer numbers makes Spot Removal not as strong - Flashback doesn't hurt), I think I could cut Riptide Replicator for our next Wrath-Mans.
The original reason why I kept the deck in its proportions is to copy Menendian's Type 4. I made slight changes to proportions based off of my own taste and years of play. I don't think I can add any more creature-based removal without removing someone.
I'm glad I called a Monstrous Wrath and we're starting to see some interesting Bestow creatures. I hope my call of a worthy Bestow is also there.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Colossus of Akros rounds out the final card. It is a superior Darksteel Colossus.
Dissolve is another possibility but it is a card that I wouldn't hunt down. I think it is better than Discombobulate and I'm uncertain on the strength of Dromar's Charm. Being able to recur or search for two blue cards can be very powerful.
No Bestow worth adding, we'll see for the rest of the block.
My final list is:
Medomai the Ageless
Stormbreath Dragon
Hythonia the Cruel
Colossus of Akros
Ashen Rider
Steam Augury
Curse of the Swine
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Necrotic Sliver -> Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Stuffy Doll -> Colossus of Akros
Meddling Kids -> Lord of the Void
Flowstone Slide -> Curse of the Swine
Izzet Chronarch -> Molten Primordial
Intuition -> Steam Augury
I cracked a Thoughtseize which let me get into trade range for the Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. When I listed Necrotic Sliver as my weakest removal creature I knew that the Gyre would be a replacement. I am placing him on the Watchlist by principle. He's one of the cray-cray Eldrazi; however, considering there are numerous Indestructible creatures and his effect is "only" Vindicate I think he'll be fine - especially with the Cast stipulation and nuking your own yard.
My conversation a page ago about the lack of Combat Tricks in my stack made me realize how little blocking goes on. Also, the amount of Masicore effects have significantly gone down with the necessity of -1/-1 (Consume Ooze) or Exile (Dark Impostor). This means that Stuffy Dolll hasn't been pulling its weight in a long time, it just took me a long time to realize that this Combo has significantly lost its teeth. Colossus of Akros almost replaced Darksteel Colossus but this discovery made me axe Stuffy Doll.
Meddling Kids was a fun experiment that I do not understand what they do. Lord of the Void just happens to replace him with an effect I quite understand. I can't wait until I see someone choose a less powerful creature just so the more crazy ones stay Exiled.
Flowstone Slide has merits but I think Exile, even if it has to dodge Protection and Shroud/Hexproof is worthwhile. None of the Indestructibles have that and while Slide would deal with them, Slide couldn't handle any Kamahl, Fist of Krosa effect. Curse of the Swine will make some relevant bodies irrelevant.
I wouldn't run Relearn and I know Vanilla bodies are worthless so Izzet Chronarch happens to take the bullet this time around. Molten Primordial, while initially skeptical, makes me think that this will be a blow out play. At the very worst, its a Hasted Craw Wurm. With the amount of removal in the format, Haste is a very relevant keyword.
Intuition has not been pulling its weight for a long time now, but due to the power of card draw it has stayed in the stack until Wizards printed a good Instant card draw. It took a while but Steam Augury fits the bill. I also like Steam Augury because of the mini-game, I think it is a lot less complicated than Fact or Fiction but still rewarding.
I also made some formatting changes on the 'splash' page. I reversed the Change Log as I realized that people would want to read about the most recent changes first instead of slugging through a list.
I removed Transcendent Master from my Wants list. It wasn't as flashy as I wanted and turned out to be a giant pain to find. I also passed up numerous opportunities to trade for Obzedat's Aid because I am unsure if it is worth casting. Rise of the Dark Realms places a lot of doubt on the viability of recursion. An archtype that has been taking a beating over years suddenly gets a big boost and now I don't know which spells can wear the big boy pants.
I also did a serious look at Djinn Illuminatus who I had in the deck previously but removed because of how dangerous he is. I wanted to take an honest look at the Djinn, so I looked over all the various combos.
1 Acquire
1 Bribery
1 Time Stretch
1 Summoning Trap
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Conflux
Instant Win
1 Opportunity
1 Blast from the Past
1 Urza's Rage
1 Resounding Thunder
1 Riddle of Lightning
1 Searing Wind
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Sorin's Vengeance
1 Cruel Ultimatum
Cute Effect
1 Miraculous Recovery
1 Beacon of Immortality
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Army of the Damned
1 All Suns' Dawn
1 Crush of Wurms
1 Firemind's Foresight
I didn't add cards like Fact or Fiction to the list where you'll only Copy 3 or 4 times because otherwise it'd be suicidal because I didn't think it would be an Overwhelming Advantage. I would not want too much Overwhelming Advantage where we've got to wait around for the Djinn player to win without the instant kills of Burn.
Overwhelming Advantage means you should win right there, but I can foresee situations where perhaps you don't have it. Lack of targets, lack of synergy or something goes wrong. I would say that 95% of the time, Overwhelming Advantage should win, but who knows how long that would take.
I was unsure if I should add Tsabo's Decree to Overwhelming Advantage, you only kill every creature and strip all creatures from all opponent's hands. It probably places you in the winner's circle but you still need to kill them all.
Infinite creatures, as I have found, can be dealt with. I don't care how many times you Copy Crush of Wurms - I have the answer or I don't.
The other effect of the Djinn is you always win the counter war.
I do want to try him out, but I see banning a card as a failure. It is important to find out the boundaries of what is acceptable before it becomes a giant mess on the floor. I remember being disappointed with Wizards whenever they have to ban a card - I think Skullclamp is fun, why are you removing this from existence when I have the card? I am still unsure if I should get this sly bastard.
The other thing that made me change my tune is my conversation with a friend about Riptide Replicator and Chimeric Staff. I've come to the conclusion that Infinite Power or Infinite Creatures is fine, Vanilla is not - hence the removal of Wurmcalling and Chimeric Staff. They can be chumped or destroyed as a by-product (I think of Wraths as Spot Removal, you destroy what you want and accidentally kill other things). Staff is also very vulnerable in being both types that have the most amount of "Destroy Target" available.
He made a point about my surprise that Shroud is useful on Kalonian Behemoth. His argument on Riptide Replicator is that it is a form of Shroud. You can chump or kill the tokens all day, but you need multiple answers to deal with the Riptide Replicator. You need a Wrath or a body that can block all day. If you don't, you lose. Destroy Target Artifact does not deal with my X/X and if you've got an answer for that too, I just 2-for-1'd you with a Vanilla creature.
With this in mind, I'm going to keep a close eye on Riptide Replicator and see how it performs with this new paradigm.
Cubetutor isn't fully updated because I guess they haven't ripped the Theros images yet. Once they do, I'll add in my Theros update.
Also, I have a Woodfall Primus but I don't know which kill creature (or something else) to remove. Some suggestions would be very much welcome.
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As for how well Artisan's Sorrow stacks up:
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Deepfire Elemental
1 Terastodon
1 Slyvan Primordial
1 Tyrant of Discord
Noncreature Permanents
1 Legacy Weapon
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Plague Boiler
1 Pernicious Deed
1 All is Dust
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Obliterate
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Planar Cleansing
1 Austere Command
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Balancing Act
1 Mortify
1 Putrefy
1 Slice in Twain
1 Krosan Grip
1 Beast Within
1 Banishing Stroke
1 Return to Dust
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Dismantling Blow
I know you were probably looking at just Instant-Speed Destruction but I like a more holistic approach. I have very few Instant-Speed Disenchants but I find that the amount I have is fine because of the amount of other 'accidental destruction' available which can double duty as a Wrath that you want to destroy an Enchantment/Artifact and as a bonus gets rid of opposing creatures as well.
Looking at the pure Disenchants, excluding the Mortify/Putrefy, I have to stack Scry 2 versus: Draw 1 Card, Draw 2 Cards, Flashback, Exile (or Exile 2 if Sorcery), Tuck, Split Second and give 3/3 (but any permanent). The only Disenchant that might be worth replacing is Slice in Twain but I prefer Card Draw over Scry. I do think that Scry 2 is almost as good as Draw 1; however, it is my preference for Draw that might make that choice.
Furthermore, in the case of the Woodfall Primus I can't think of a creature to replace him with. I don't want to oversaturate answers to noncreature threats, which I already aided with the removal of Relic Crush.
Played a few games the other day, more random analysis:
I cannot play a Combo deck. I normally see Combo as the strongest, but I had many players just flat out attack me over any other target. It could be the problem of 3 players in where they choose to play Kingmaker and kill me. Normally, Combo sits back and then wins because they look relatively innocent. Either I need to pick up my draft skills or play more Aggro/Control.
This could also be a sign that Combo is now the weakest archetype and really needs a Djinn Illuminatus to balance the scales.
When we drafted, another player commented that Back from the Brink was terrible and should be removed. After seeing Guild Feud in action, I think it has found the wrong deck. In fact, after seeing Guild Feud in action, I think I see a new archetype. The issue with the lack of graveyards could be the overaggressive nature of my stack - there isn't a time to build up a huge 'yard.
Guild Feud puts cards into graveyards, enabling all sorts of graveyard shenanigans, such as Back from the Brink. Guild Feud was very entertaining and if it wasn't a low pick on the third pack, but a high pick from the first pack (I don't think its 1st pick worthy), then you could build a deck around it (simply lots of Creatures with Effects.dec). Lurking Predators and "Ach Hans Run" could complete the deck.
Speaking of those two Enchantments, Lurking Predators is great even if it whiffs 50% of the time. I felt a great pressure to make sure each of my spells counted, I even saw the player keep cards at the top of his library using it very much like a Scry mechanic. Ach Hans Run has last picked, last pack to the Guild Feud player due to him saying he hated the card. At the end of the games, I think he likes it now because he can call forth creatures to smash face.
Baneful Omen finally saw a lot of play because I made sure to cast it every time I got the chance. Now I understand why it sees so little play: it might be too good. Tower of Fortunes or Leyline of Anticipation might get hated on because they're good, Baneful Omen actively draws hate as players rush to kill you because you kill them. I think it would be a great Win-Con of a No.dec type, full of Counters, Wraths and Removal because you just got to stop players and the Omen will take care of them. Its a card that should only be played in a position of power, as the whole table will turn on you. While Baneful Omen is powerful, I don't know if I like the whole, "its only good when you're winning".
Despite all of these very powerful Enchantments, the majority of them got dealt with or they were ignored to our peril. I find that there is enough Disenchants in the Cube for now.
Colossus of Akros showed up and was a good card. Not surprisingly, considering it is a superior Darksteel Colossus despite the extra text.
Angel of Serenity made an appearance in one game and I am uncertain about her. She's easy to kill so removing opponents creatures or creatures in graveyards seems counterproductive. You're giving them an incentive to kill her. I think you would choose your own dead creatures as a threat to not kill her, lest whatever you've got comes back for a second round.
True to my friend's analysis of "no one cares about a Regrowth", All Suns' Dawn resolved every time it got back one or two cards. Removing the Izzet Chronarch was a good call and now I'm sort of questioning All Suns' Dawn's validity, but it could be that the player strategically knew that All Suns' for 4 or 5 gets countered so just going for slight CA was good (he almost always got a Counterspell back).
Finally, I am thinking of adding Polukranos, World Eater because while it cannot keep going Infinite, it is a Wrath with Infinite Power once. That should be powerful. The argument a friend presented was that it represents the ultimate win condition: You Monstrosity the turn you swing, kill their blockers and kill them. You have Counterbackup because you have not cast your spell yet.
Edit:
Oh yeah, I stumbled across another card I'm ashamed I didn't quite read correctly: Grave Betrayal.
Creatures are going to die and then you're going to have creatures. It seems like a lot less hoops to jump through than other Reanimation I have in my stack. Anyone else's experience with Grave Betrayal?
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Yeah, I don't think Artisan's Sorrow fits into your stack, although it would be alright in mine. I am thinking about switching it with Return To Dust, which leads me to my second point and what does Return to Dust do for you? You have little to no way to return any artifacts/enchantments and your graveyard hate is fairly numerous so is the exile really needed? Is it just another (narrower) way to get rid of the Collossii (The large indestructible artifact creatures)? Shouldn't the creature removal suite be able to handle that?
I am also unhappy with the state of Back From the Brink in my stack. Whenever I have seen it played there hasn't been enough creatures to make use of it, and the other times it has been useful there has been a global wrath that removes the BftB and all the tokens so you are down so many resources. If you rip anything graveyard based after it you feel depressed. I much prefer Marshall's Anthem as it has the same amount of threat value, but without the loss of cards if something goes wrong.
While I think Polukranos, World Eater is a great card and may have a good home in your stack, I don't want to put it in mine. I just have a thing against a card that is both a One-Hit KO and a wrath. Due to the randomness nature of my communal stack one can't reliably survive this in middish game. At least all the other OHKO's let you throw bodies in front of them to give you hope of finding an answer. This one just 'eats' those dreams (and the world, apparently).
Lastly, while I have not got Grave Betrayal in my stack, I have played it a fair bit in commander and it is pretty sweet. It might require some finesse in playing it though as if you play it too early you get no value from it (as it will just die) and if you play it too late you will probably just die from the creatures you are hoping to get
Could be a sweet draft card though as you can prioritise wraths and the like to build around it. I have a card similar in my stack (Prince of Thralls) and he has been doing alright. He is just a general 7/7 dork but it gives you some wrath insurance and playing him late game on a full board is quite the game changer. He is too weak for your stack, but he has been impressing me for a random throw in.
I like all your adds from Theros and am looking at pretty much the same cards. I probably rely way too much on your ideas for your stack but I slowly heading in my own direction. Plus after moving to a new town where the magic scene is pretty small it is nice to have a quick easy game of Type 4 where everyone can be on the same playing field and get the used to some of the older cards/keywords. Also helps the understand the game mechanics better in a fun relaxing setting.
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Your analysis makes sense, I kind of like that distinction actually. If Player A's permanents are dealt with, you still have to deal the Grave Betrayal Player. It flies under the radar is people are playing non-threatening creatures but a few random spot removal and suddenly the random batch of creatures are under one player's control. Nifty.
@ Kirblinx:
I was trying to think of why Return to Dust over any other brand but it made me think about Ray of Distortion and how many non-Creature Permanents I have as threats. Looking at my non-Creature Permanent list, there's 48 currently listed. I was looking at the visual spoiler when I realized that 9 of those cards are Lands, meaning there are only 39 targets for Disenchants with 9 Artifact creatures available on top of this (there are 11 in actuality, but the other two are a Clone and Shroud creatures - Phyrexian Metamorph/Inkwell Leviathan).
This is probably why Sharuum the Hegemon felt weak: there's slightly more than 10% of the deck as an available target. That's if you drafted every non-Creature. That's if you drew those cards. That's if your non-Creature Permanent which isn't a land made its way into your 'yard without getting exiled. And that's if its even an Artifact anyway.
I remember from our last game I drafted Ray of Distortion and was pleased that I got one use out of it. It sat in my graveyard many a time and I tried to tell myself that I had a backup in case something came up. I was ready. Frequently, there wasn't another game-breaking Enchantment/Artifact that came up: I falsely told myself that I was prepared on that front while in reality there wasn't a second borken Noncreature Permamnent. You usually only have time to play one.
I guess that's why Back from the Brink is problematic. If you only have time to play one Broken Noncreature Permanent, because it leaves you very vulnerable, then it better count. You haven't played a Body, so you can't threaten or defend yourself.
I should probably be cutting a Disenchant and replace Back from the Brink. It may be amazing if you have a full 'yard; however, you would need to go into a long game for that to be a back breaking play. Reliance is rearing its ugly head. Depending on what Bestow cards are made, I might change my mind but currently it doesn't look that way.
So while you think that Return to Dust might be the weakest, it might be another pet card of mine that gets the axe instead (I love Instants with Flashback). In comparison to the other two (Mystical Teachings and Fervent Denial), I cannot say with certainty that I will be casting Ray of Distortion whenever I get the opportunity, unlike a Tutor or Counter.
While there isn't many ways to recur Artifacts and Enchantments, your analysis of "it gets rid of Colossii" is spot on. Hell, I'm sure you'd be pretty happy to remove and never see again Memnarch or Etched Montrosity (possible draw engine/its a goddamned 10/10), as well.
I was considering Prince of Thralls when I first saw him, but I never went out got one. I don't know why. It is a fairly threatening body and the effect is nice.
@ Commander 2013 Spoiler:
Unexpectedly Absent is impressive spot removal. As far as I'm concerned, it reads: Put target permanent on the bottom of their deck. I already run Banishing Stroke and this is more flexible, allowing you to Memory Lapse a card or just choose a low number as a form of politics - "You can't have the Cookie now, after dinner."
Baleful Force is looking pretty good to me. It probably won't survive too many upkeeps, and I know people who gladly pay any life to Yawgmoth's Bargain or Grislebrand. This is far more immediate than Bringer of the Blue Dawn whose 5/5 body stopped being impressive a long time ago. In fact, Bringer is one of those cards I am trying to get on the chopping block, but the fact that Card Draw is King makes it impossible. Enter Baleful Force as a replacement, perhaps.
Price of Knowledge another aggro-enchantment? I kind of like it but its a Baleful Omen variant - I'm uncertain how to proceed. Causing that much hate is not desirable, but you don't have time to make friends. It also could be too slow. They take maybe 10 damage and you're dead, leaving it as a slugging match between the survivors.
Bane of Progress is a card at first glance I liked but now I have reservations. In my Type 4, it would maybe be a 3/3, 4/4 if you're lucky. In my Kamahl EDH, he would blow up my very friendly Artifact/Enchantments - I don't mind a [c]Molder Slug/c] but I would need to build around it. Bane just hates everything, despite saying that Gotham is Yours.
Gahiji, Honored One is funny but I doubt the +2 improvement will steer people away.
Nekusar, the Mindrazer just helped your opponents for an inconsequential amount of damage. Just enough to hurt their feelings, but don't worry. They have cards to deal with you now.
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic is cool but way to damned slow (unless I errata Command Zone also includes Exile Zone, but I'm not a fan of Exile). Make a Pillowfort EDH if I get him, I guess....
Eye of Doom is a nifty way to Wrath the board without pissing people off... Waitaminute, I want to destroy their crap because its going to have its way with me. I think it would be a fun card in a slower, more permanents on the board Stack/Cube.
This means from Commander 2013, I want:
Price of Knowledge
Baleful Force - Bringer of the Blue Dawn replacement?
Unexpectedly Absent - Is better than any Disenchant?
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These three seem like the best bets; there are definitely some interesting options though, as you outlined. Is there some sort of resource where there is a Type 4 set overview for each set? Seems like it would be a good reference for updating/changing the nature of a stack.
Yet another format for which I want an Unexpectedly Absent!
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Have you ever had Academy Ruins in your stack? If so, when did you take it out?
Fated Retribution
I like me some instant speed mass removal. It works even better in my communal stack due to giving you a reason to cast this on your own turn (see what opponents are going to draw). Not sure if it makes the cut though due to all other mass removal giving better effects Decree of Pain, Merciless Eviction etc.
Arbiter of the Ideal
Seems cool, just a shame that inspired takes WAY too long to be useful. Would be alright for low-powered stacks.
Perplexing Chimera
Seems like a very interesting chaos card. Trying to entice the trade with average spells.I want to give this a test run but it may be way too annoying to keep in the stack. I like cards that can produce mind games.
Tromokratis
A large sometimes hexproof and sometimes unblockable creature seems pretty stackable. May be a little too bland to be considered and considering most removal is instant the hexproof is largely irrelevent.
Champion of Stray Souls
May be a bit too slow but being able to upgrade your squad or abuse ETB effects seems pretty strong. The fact that he has his own way of getting out of the graveyard is just gravy. I may give him a run.
Fated Return
The most obvious casual card in Born of the Gods and almost certainly a Type 4 staple. Being able to steal a creature from anyone's graveyard AND make it indestructible sounds like all sorts of a beating.
Those are the only ones that seems to look appealing to me. Not too many but you can't expect too much from a small set.
The only one that stands out to me is Fated Return. Instant speed reanimation is quite awesome. The scry part kinda makes it worthwhile to play at sorcery, especially if the rest of your deck is already instant speed.
Easily replaces the Miraculous Recovery that has been in my stack for too long.
Here is my (attempt) at a type 4 Journey Into Nyx (p)review.
Decided to throw it in the spoiler box to save room as it was getting pretty long.
Hour of Need
Another 'Curse of the Swine' variant but at instant speed. Exiles problematic creatures and can even possibly upgrade your team. Pretty tempted to run it. It is definitely going into my peasant cube, that is for sure but probably can't cut it in type 4.
Hypnotic Siren
Another Spirited Away that leaves behind a dorky 1/1 after it dies. Most sorcery speed control is pretty weak in type 4 (says the person running Yavimaya's Embrace) but I can see some people running it.
Interpret the Signs
Heed the Mists was already a pretty sweet card in my communal stack. This is just strictly better than it. Did like the randomness factor of Heed the Mist more as it makes it less powerful (drawing cards is king in type 4). Will probably give it a run and see how it goes.
Polymorphous Rush
Made me think to try Mirrorweave as a card in my type 4 as it can do some absurd things. This is probably too weak considering you can only target your own creatures.
Silence the Believers
Another instant multi-exile card. Pretty good if you ask me. Don't know what I would replace to put it into my stack but a pretty solid removal spell.
Worst Fears
Yay! Another Mindslaver. If you liked Mindslaver now you have another chance to draw it
Bearer of the Heavens
Seems like the poster child for type 4. Will probably throw it in so people can see something new that they understand. Not spectacular but big and splashy that most of my players will like.
Dictate of the Twin Gods
Instant speed you die? Probably a little too much of a double-edged sword but will always be taking someone out of the game when it comes down. Doesn't promote the type of gameplay I want for my stack but still really cool.
Harness by Force
Insurrection v0.8. If you like Insurrection or think it is a little bit too powerful this downgrade might be up your alley. Same as dictate of the gods for me that it promotes gameplay that I don't want for my stack.
Twinflame
A lot like Polymorphous Rush but in stead of upgrading your army for the swing doubles your army instead. Could be good but requires you to have at least 2 creatures on the board for it to be worthwhile. A little too much work for it to be worthwhile.
Hydra Broodmaster
Infinite army in a can (at instant speed no less). Everyone dies if this survives a whole rotation. Way too powerful for me.
Fleetfeather Cockatrice
This card let me go undefeated in the prerelease and being a flash, flying, deathtouch 6/6 seems quite playable in type 4. Will find a way to squeeze him in as a pet card to see how he goes (plus the art is awesome).
Revel of the Fallen God
8 power of haste is pretty good. Would rather it as one creature though. The tokens aren't plentyful enough (Army of the Damned) or but enough (Crush of Wurms) for me to justify it.
Much better than Born of the Gods in terms of card quality for type 4 (and just in general). Changing at least 3 cards this set. Looking forward to conspiracy. Think it will have a couple of sweet cards for type 4.
I've mostly updated my wants. Haven't changed anything in the stack. As I said, I've been away. The cards I would be interested in are:
Born of the Gods
Fated Retribution
Fated Infatuation - Fastest least constrictive Clone in the book?
Fated Return - Finally, something to replace Miraculous Recovery
Chromanticore - With Bestow not fizzling if killed in response, replace Phantom Nishoba
Journey into Nyx
Silence the Believers - Instant speed exile targeted wrath
Out of Conspiracy, the only card that I'd be interested in is Backup Plan. I like the idea of Conspiracies, since they really cater for the Cuber in Magic, but the options aren't outright ridiculous.] - where Type 4 is. The problem with Backup Plans is it would become the outright top pick out of the entire stack, essentially everyone draws 4 and then you draw 7, choosing to keep the 7. The voting mechanics are also very interesting but then I realized the choices are the least powerful. Another opposite of what I'm attempting to achieve.
Another card I'm thinking of adding to the Chopping Block is Overwhelming Forces. The issue is errata. The card implies that it is all players but errata has you only choose one. I don't want to have to explain cards at all, like why I cut Dwarven Catapult. The reason why I'm putting more thought into this cut over another (as I doubt most players are intimate with Portal Errata) is that Overwhelming Forces is an expensive card that could get me a lot of trade bait!
As for very overdue replies, well... I'm sorry for the tardiness. Here we go:
@ HeitisjeboiM: Good stuff, nice to see that you're still foiling up your stack. I wonder how much more you've gotten?
@ umtiger: I might have had Academy Ruins in my stack at one point. I started this stack back in Kamigawa era, so I've been working on it for... HOLY CRAP! 10 years. Yeah, there's a lot that's been taking in and out. The issue I currently have is Reanimation is pretty weak and the amount of artifacts are smaller than creatures. Hell, Sharuum the Hegemon had to be cut and he's a beastly dude.
@ kirblinx:
Completely agree with you on Fated Retribution, hence in my list as well.
Arbiter of the Ideal is a low powered stack pick, so out of my range. The fighty creatures can outbox this guy and the effect isn't that impressive when you're trying to use his body. Memodai the Ageless promises another turn if he survives, the Arbiter is only cheating a permanent into play. I think my stack is too aggressive for that.
Perplexing Chimera is a funny counterspell, but that's why I've got Common Courtesy in my stack. A pre-emptive counter. I do like it, I think the effect is cute but it's too easy for "I guess I gain control of the Wrath that is killing me?"
Tromokratis is bland and 'spot removal' is in the form of counters. Also, it's only unblockable unless all my creatures block it, which can easily just be one.
Champion of Stray Souls has reliance. I'm relying on having other creatures for him to sac and that's not going to make me win. Also, Tap effects give me the hives. I only have two Tap creatures and I think they're worth it: Ertai, Wizard Adept and Arcanis the Omnipotent.
Agree with adding Fated Return.
@ umtiger: I had to steal the words out of your mouth with my review of Fated Return.
@ kirblinx: Your reviews are very helpful, especially since I've been out...
Hour of Need gives too much away, 4/4 fliers are threats.
You hit the problem with Hypnotic Siren, too risky/weak to run Control Magic in Type 4. Better to kill or be Take Possession.
I was tempted to add Interpret the Signs but it is Sorcery speed draw, even if it is ridiculous it would be hard to justify in my mind. You use instants to shore up weaknesses by drawing or removal, your Sorcery-speed spells need to be to establish board position. Technically, a hand is board position, as they see your mitt, but I'm uncertain. It's a super weak maybe in my eyes.
Silence the Unbelievers. Instant speed exile Wrath that targets. Jumps to my attention.
Worst Fears is a lot worse than Mindslaver so I'm not going to include it. It is far easier to have Worst Fears backfire with Copying, counter, redirect, gain control. Then it gets Exiled, so the chance of abuse is tiny. Mindslaver can be set up and that's what I like.
Bearer of Heavens is too unreliable for me. I do like your assessment of 'something new people will understand'. That's not my goal but I like it more than screaming baby Child of Alara.
As much as I want to say I want manliest Type 4 around, I am shy around 'screw the world' effects. Sure, Dictate of the Twin Gods can kill one player unexpectedly but then it gets dangerous.
I don't run Insurrection any more due to reliance, and Harness by Force is worse.
Twimflame can kill your own Legends and I've already got some scary Sorcery-speed token creation of stuff that sticks around. Pass for me.
Hydra Broodmaster was under consideration but I banned Selesnya Guildmage for infinite power and tokens. This guy seems a lot more manageable but more manageable of infinite is still a daunting task. It's under consideration but I think I'd want to use Polukranos, World Eater first. He eats everything, kills one player as he goes Monstrous on the swing but then the rest of the players have time to deal with him. Then again... My '1 card, 2 turns' is in effect and the reason why the Guildmage was removed because it handled too many answers. Infinite damage wouldn't kill the guildmage and his brood, killing everyone but the Guildmage would just result in another army-in-a-can... I think you might have convinced me to try the Broodmaster out... You monster
I was also tempted to try Fleetfeather Cockatrice but I thought he might be a little too weak. I guess he has the virtue of trading with anything and in colours that would rarely be protection-against.
Revel of the Fallen God wasn't even fully read by me when I saw only 4 2/2s. Haste is pretty good, now that I see that it has that but Army of the Damned and Crush of Wurms deliver potential lethal damage.
I can't comment for medium power Type 4 as to whether either was good or not but I am interested in trying some Type 4 soon to get back into the swing of things.
Thank you all for the updates!
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I like to think I was keeping the thread nice and warm for your inevitable return.
Thanks for all the comments for all of my reviews, nice to get another perspective.
I seemed to have missed a couple of cards in my BotG review.
Fated Infatuation - I think I ignored because it seems inferior to Cackling Counterpart because they can only clone your own creatures and the flashback is better than sorcery speed scry.
Chromanticore - For an aggro card I feel it needs to be at least 5/5 or more to be worth it but I forgot to factor in it is mostly going to be +4/+4 lifelink, flying enchantment which is a huge swing. Having a mini-Akroma left over makes the card go from playable to good.
I mentioned it in one of my other posts but what do you think of Mirrorweave?
I only recently added it to my stack and has been quite the blowout everytime it has been played (Although I imagine it is hard to know when to use it). It is a very unique effect and I have difficulty trying to think of a comparison.
You're right about Fated Infatuation. I thought it could Clone any creature instead of just your own.
I'm thinking of Chromanticore as a really inexpensive Batterskull.
I chewed over Mirrorweave for a few days and I just can't figure out what it does. Scenarios that ran in my head: Used to cause indestructible creatures to not be weakened to a Wrath. Force creatures with escapes to GTFO so you can do something else. Exploit a certain vulnerability in a creature, like turn everything into Pro Black/Non-Pro Black during certain parts. It reeks with reliance. In your experience what does it actually do?
Also, I've had second thoughts of Feathered Cockatrice. It is a 6/6 Flying Deathtouch creature with Haste due to Flash. Not many creatures have Flying with Flash, it can unexpectedly show up to block or get an extra attacker down. Having a dude down, EOT Cockatrice and then your turn Haste critter can really wreck people's day. And it trades with any Non-Indestructible, Non-First Strike creature. I would argue that it is better than most of my Haste creatures so I think the Cocatrice deserves to be added to the stack.
Other big fatty Flash creatures didn't get my attention because they usually lacked Flight. Flash Trample in Green seemed to be a pretty common choice but Trample isn't good enough as ground pounders can get quite huge. Flight though? Flying is limited to a certain size category.
Also, another card I was considering that is also from Conspiracy is Advantageous Proclamation. With that Conspiracy, that's 6 cards less in your deck. Makes your deck much more reliable. I'm still on the fense about it and Backup Plan.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
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I just saw that M15 has begun spoiling, so let's look at what they've got so far @ 58 Spoils:
Resolute Archangel - This card is nice in theory. If you're losing, it puts you back in the game. I dislike it. I prefer Magister Sphinx to reduce infinite life or bring yourself up. And I don't run the Sphinx.
Mercurial Pretender - I am unsure if this is worse than Sakashima the Impostor. Sakashima doesn't kill legends with his cloning; however, he lets you Clone Legends. What Mercurial Pretender has over Sakashima is that the Kamigawa Legend bounces EOT while the Pretender is immediate. This might be the case of a side-grade; however, I am wary of Clones as they usually don't have that much to target. Body Double's pool is theoretically larger, Dimir Doppelganger also does serious graveyard shenanigans and Phyrexian Metamorph hits artifacts as well. If I include the Pretender, I think I'd need to remove Sakashima.
Soul of Ravnica - For a moment I thought this was a neat card, but then I slapped myself and regained to my senses. There is a reason why all 'at will' card draw comes with a resource cost. Even Lim-Dul's Oath, which has theoretically brutal drawbacks won too many games. Mana to Draw to too powerful in Type 4, though Browse seems to be the right mix of drawback. 5 cards Exiled per use is pretty brutal.
Phythotitan - Another Mist Dragon/Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang, somewhat indestructible creature that warrants removal. I think its interesting but I don't think it's a big enough threat in my stack.
Soul of Zendikar - 6/6 that poops out infinite 3/3s and then poops out one final 3/3 when dead. I'm not impressed. Oh, sure, it could go into the Type 4 stack on pure basis of infinite creatures but I feel that it's too plain for how good it is. This is a 'probably' but it just looks so vanilla. Or it could be that it is next to my definite pick for M15 so far:
Genesis Hydra - X/X that puts any creature from your deck into play. DONE! In fact, it might be too good but this fanciness is something I'm willing to try!
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
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Perhaps I understated how good Soul of Zendikar is. It's good, really good. Probably a top-tier threat, I just read the Genesis Hydra first and that's why it paled in comparison in my mind. After all, the Hydra can fetch Zendikar if it wanted to but not the other way around. Though you do end up with Infinite Power no matter how you shake it.
Secondly, I decided to add Interpret the Signs to my Wants list. With the average mana curve and Scry 3, it should make it at worst equal to Tidings. At best, you should draw a lot of cards.
Finally, I discovered an interesting feature of the Cube Tutor website while I was looking at mana costs. It shows the top picked and top passed cards. This means what are definitely the best and the worst from drafts. I don't know if it is just me drafting or others, but it was definitely an eye opened on what cards to place on the Chopping Block.
Despite what I thought were decent or power picks, if they keep getting passed they cannot be that good. So, I majorly updated the Chopping Block. It'll make my life easier when I start updating the Cube again.
Edit - Extrapolating:
Baneful Omen and Price of Knowledge are weak. Putting Omen on the Block and removing Price from my Wants. Other Enchantments are a straight up Win when it comes to dealing damage. Knollspine Invocation and Pyromancy has set the bar really high. Aladdin's Ring is safe because it is instantaneously, controllable and hits creatures. Furthermore, because Ring's on call, it's a reason not to screw with someone who has the Shotgun.
Shroud is not good enough of a mechanic. Perhaps that's just my preference, but I guess with Wrath being the bar that removal is set to, Kalonian Behemoth, Plated Slagwurm and Gaea's Revenge get very little love. I guess there are lots of Indestructible creatures that ignore the Wraths while these guys ignore the Spot Removal. I don't know if it is a meta-shift or keep them in for now.
Speaking of unkillable targets, Mist Dragon is another underpicked choice. I think that cards that won't die aren't threatening any more. There is no time to gain advantage through that. Other impossible to deal with cards are threatening in some fashion, such as Windreaver or Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang (requires two types of attacks).
This means that the reason why Graveyard manipulation is underwhelming is because "Ain't nobody got time for that". All Suns' Dawn, Back from the Brink, etc. Sedris, the Traitor King and Sheoldred, Whispering One remain off this list for some strange reason. I have a theory on Sheoldred's opponent upkeep triggers is enough of a reason and Sedris, despite the fact that graveyards don't build up too much, still has the opportunity to surprise people with a wave of attackers they're unprepared for. Windmill slam him turn after an Instant Wrath?
Just like no one has time for Graveyards, 'At the beginning of your upkeep' is problematic as well. Dominus of Fealty is too slow despite being very flexible. Sheoldred's Upkeep trigger is useful for yourself, no reliance on opponents and also keeps opponents down with her sacrifice triggers. This would explain why Guild Feud gets no love. I think Debtor's Knell escapes because of the flexibility, something is going to be a target, though I am feeling that Upkeep triggers might be too burdensome.
These types of triggers are a testament as to why only Arcanis the Omnipotentand Ertai, Wizard Adept are my sole Tappers. Counter and Draw on demand are superb. Kill comes easily with so many creatures that have pay mana for damage/death.
Reweave despite its uber-utility is underpicked to a ridiculous degree. It solves anything but it gives your opponent another threat. With Chaos Warp existing, it is time to retire Reweave. Ditto with Sway of the Stars. No one knows when the best time, if any, is to Sway so it should be removed from the Stack.
I guess I've underestimated my decision to be aggressive in how much it warps the Stack's meta. Two Card Combos and Firebreathing removes Control's incremental advantage. I guess my Stack's gone Aggro vs. Combo. It has swung away from 'Suffocating Control' and has gone on to a blitz-fest. The issue is that if I slow down the Aggro, Combo will dominate again. If I neuter Combo, then Control will stifle Aggro.
I think I'm going to have to accept Rocket Tag that is Type 4. Or I can add back in what I think are stupid Prison picks like Nullstone Gargoyle. Maybe a few more Shield of the Ages effects, though the easiest way to do so is with Infinite Life. Going Infinite means that Combo needs to go off and can't just squelch out a Chainer, Dementia Master/Siege-Gang Commander or Knollspine Invocation but need a card combo such as the classic "Glasticore" (Masticore/Glarecaster - in this case it'd need to be Olivia Voldaren). And Aggro would need to find a Firebreather instead of just overwhelm with big badasses.
I should also probably add cards that require being dealt with before the killing blow is landed, such as Empyrial Archangel and Vengeful Archon. Soul Conduit is probably another good pick for Control, as they can punish Aggro's success. I told these from Kirblinx's Type 4 stack at Cube Tutor:
http://cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/2243
Hmmm... So go for more Prison or make Infinite Life easier? With Infinite Life, Control would be able to establish board position and drain out with the slower cards, such as Baneful Omen or take advantage of Upkeep triggering permanents.
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The problem with reanimation is you may not have any targets, this provides. It also continually recurs creatures or gives you extra draws. Lots of value. Perhaps my stack is too break neck, but if I slow it down, this might be very, very good. Anyone try it out?
Also, Grave Betrayal. I keep forgetting about this beast.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Nothing springs out to me in M15 so far. They are either overpowered (Soul of Ravnica, Soul of Zendikar, Genesis Hydra) or just not good enough.
However speaking of spoilers there is one card that interests me from Conspiracy: Dack's Duplicate. A haste clone seems pretty sweet, the dethrone is negligible. May not provide the versatility of all the other clones that are already good cards in Type 4 but you can't sneeze at an immediate threat, which this can provide.
I know what you are talking about with all the cards that do nothing when they come in (Debtor's Knell, Dominus of Fealty, Baneful Omen, etc.), I have also noticed that these cards are not as loved. I guess in type 4 you expect everything you cast to be flashy or stopping something flashy. These take a while to get rolling and before they do their thing they will probably just die to some mass removal. I have noticed this with Debtor's Knell especially as it is a card I am never scared of. I wouldn't be adding Deadbridge Chant just because of how similar it is to the Knell (except worse because you have no control over it).
I am still a big lover of shroud, it is doing great things. I still am scared of Kalonian Behemoth and helps fill out the big creature quota while being easy to understand. Maybe you need to cut back of some mass removal (or shift it to something like Silence the Believers to make them seem more relevant in your stack.
There is a bit too much content in these last three posts for me to digest it all at once. I will comment on the other topics in my next post (and so I don't repeat myself in the same post).
Looking at the Legend rule again, and now I feel my scrubby casual shame of not remembering the rule change: If we both put down the same Legend, neither gets blown up. This means the entire purpose of Sakashima the Impostor is pointless. This means a Clone needs to replace him and while I think Dack's Duplicate is interesting with haste but Mercurial Pretender has more potential. The Clone department is already in fierce competition due to how little there usually is to Clone (with 2-3 permanents out, it's hard to justify). Phyrexian Metamorph already gets brownie points for being able to Clone an Artifact and Vesuvan Shapeshifter can transform into bigger and badder targets (if it lives). The Bounce in Pretender, in my eyes, makes it the most survivable.
Perhaps I should cut the Vesusvan Shapeshifter as well for Dack's Duplicate due to the aggressive nature of Hasted Clones. What is clear is that Sakashima no longer pulls his weight, sadly. Another Cube Starter bites the dust. Body Double is arguably the best Clone. If someone spent resources making sure a creature was dead, then Cloning that can't be bad.
I think you're right in that I should remove traditional Wraths in favour of Instant Speed Mass Wraths such as Silence the Believers, the issue is that my Stack is designed to be drafted and Control is currently the weakest option. I don't want to take more away from them.
Edit:
Mercurial Pretender only Clones your own creatures. D'oh! Well, time to just look at Dack's Duplicate.
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Sphinx's Revelation
You can't go to infinite life, you do draw a lot of cards and gain a lot of life. Sphinxing for 20 would make you the number one threat but at that point, you become the classic control deck. Everyone bands against you for the kill. I'm contemplating it, as Control is unable to keep to the rocket tag level without a sudden overwhelming advantage. It seems to just be combo tries to find the pieces before the aggro player kills them.
Another card I just came across while using the Gatherer Search is Brightflame. It is targetted removal at Sorcery speed, but it gains you X life. Pin point with Red, so relatively lot of protections against this but it sets up for Infinite Life. I'm fine with the Instant Speed Who and this is Sorcery speed. Hell, it's easier to counter as well. I'm going to give this some serious thought.
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Sphinx's Revelation I can see as a boon for combo as it digs you deep to get the pieces and get the counterspell backup all at instant speed. Remember why you banned Treasure Trove? Sphinx's Rev does the same thing except you can cast it when everyone is 'spelled out' for the turn.
Have you ever had a game where someone has had infinite life before? What is the dynamic of the game when that occurs? Does everyone work together to take them down? Do they just ignore them? I am curious to find out. I am not game enough to do infinite life in my stack due to the randomness of the draws no one knows if they have a chance of killing them. At least in the draft environment people know they have a firebreather in their deck and have to find it, resolve it and swing with it which seems like a lot of hoops you have to correctly jump through to get the kill.
A couple of posts ago you mentioned some of the cards in my stack that may help for control. I want to extrapolate how I see them in my stack:
Nullstone Gargoyle: Yes it is the stupid prison card where it makes people not do anything. There is always a collective groan when it come out. It is a very unique effect though and happy it is in there. Changes the game dymanic every time it comes out. Alliances are made to deal with it or everyone just starts dropping dudes which is a nice change of pace to have more than 3 creatures on board before they get wrathed away, so this makes it quite the ideal aggro card.
Empyrial Archangel: A great card and one of aggro's major problems. A 5 powered flyer with psuedo-vigilance that protects you against burn spells is pretty sweet. Fairly hilarious when it gets cloned. Gives its controller some nice breathing room when it is in play which I guess is what control wants.
Vengeful Archon: Usually never lives long is usually just a 7/7 flyer that dies pretty suddenly. Ability is some nice insurance but it never sticks around long enough to be used.
Soul Conduit: One of my favourite cards in my stack. Highly political card that usually only gets its activation once. Also thinking of adding Reverse the Sands as larger one-shot life swapper, the sorcery speed hurts it though. If you are adding the infinite life gain then I would definitely add these jsut to give more options against it.
Also I was looking at your list for the control cards and noticed Eight-and-a-half-tails. What role does this card provide? I've noticed that cards that help other creatures aren't great due to the imminent wrath. Is it there for aggro to help push through? Or for combo to help set up?
Essentially, spells that were unacceptable to resolve suddenly become necessary. At that point, you've got a very dangerous game and that is interesting to me. Though I do think I really removed a lot of the "No" Control elements, perhaps I should reintroduce them. All four of your recommendations are slapped into the Wants table.
Eight-And-A-Half-Tails is protection for combo and aggro. It slices through control elements by bypassing blockers, ignoring targeting and damage. I don't know if he's better or worse than Avacyn, Angel of Hope who makes things flat out indestructible but it is unique. Speaking of which, the new M15 Avacyn looks good.
Last time on Type 4 Set Breakdown, these were the picks:
Genesis Hydra
Soul of Zendikar
M15 Spoils @ 184:
Avacyn, Guardian Angel - She's a side grade to Combat Medic, as she can attack and defend while determining if anyone should get damaged. She's slightly weaker because she relies on colors and targets while the Medic can just place Infinite Shields. Definite inclusion.
Soul of Theros - Infinite Power and Lifelink. I think it makes a perfect aggro/control piece. The Graveyard effect is merely icing on the cake.
In Garruk's Wake - I might not include this in my Type 4, as I don't include Planeswalkers but it is another Wrath that leaves your own men alone. That aspect alone makes it Type 4 worthy, it is a shame that it has effectively outclassed Plague Wind though.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - One of the strongest subarchtypes is "Search.dec" where you run any and every tutor you can draft, followed by good cards. You spend your turns continually getting your best threats and laying them on the board. As people expend resources to get rid of the threats, you're going for the next one. That fact alone makes this a serious consideration, even if I find that it is not that good in a vaccuum. It's a meta pick. I'm unsure if that is worth adding but it makes it a strong Control card.
Soul of Innistrad - Slight consideration for this card, just as it can keep your guys kicking around no matter how many of them you've spent. And then it has an extra surprise once its done. Probably too weak but I noticed this Soul.
Perilous Vault - Another auto-include as far as I'm concerned. Suped up Oblivion Stone.
Soul of New Phyrexia - I'm unsure if this is better than Deathless Angel. She Flies while this Tramples. She's tougher while it's stronger. The Graveyard effect is what got me initially intrigued. Her greatest limitation is she only protects creatures while this protects everything you've got. I am unsure if it would replace that Angel or stand nearby. This is a very strong pick.
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Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
End Hostilities is just filler Wrath. Good if you need something.
See the Unwritten seems that have merit in the right deck.
Crackling Doom is an auto-include Wrath/Spot Removal. The damage inconsequential, it's the edicts for everybody.
Duneblast is an auto-include Wrath, you can keep your own while dealing with your enemies.
Utter End is highly probable, as its an instant speed Vindicate
Sultai Charm is a maybe. It gives you bad card draw at the worst, and a very narrow kill spell including artifact/enchantment destruction. To me, this is the most conflicting card. Outside of the 1st Wrath I have listed, the others have merits in my Cube. This card, I'm unsure. It's flexible enough but not much of a power house.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs