MTG Salvation

Wolf,

I agree with your statement, I wrote it as tempo because while we were playing our games he remarked "Wow, this deck is a lot more tempo oriented then I expected." I figured I would label it what he called it. It is certainly not tempo in the normal blue sense.

As for the Stoneforge Mystic, I have no idea. Didn't build it. :-P

I did get to see the power of Bribery watching his games though. Was the first time that card has really seen play. He would cast it, take your best creature, than flash it back with Snapcaster in longer games. Stealing Elesh Norn is just brutal.

Bribery is a real beating of a card, that's for sure.

I wasn't implying in any way that the deck was bad; only that I wouldn't consider it a "tempo" deck. I'd call that thing straight Bant Midrange.

Yeah, the deck was not bad. He cast Bribery on my horrible pile of spells and was dismayed when Kor Sanctifiers was the best creature in my library...

Our third game also sparked the "is Jace 3 good for the cube" convo. I think it is, so plan to leave him in.

I don't think he's bad for the cube either. It's nice to have some alternate wincons lying around. I actually cut him for underperforming, not because he was too good or bad for the cube.

Geeze, underperforming? I feel like he is insane... only need to protect him for two-three turns.

How did he play out for you?

Well, all the 5+cc blue cards win the game for you. But they all do it by helping you stabilize at the same time. Other finishers are good when you're behind to keep you from losing, and then they win the game for you when things are stable. Jace had to be cast in a window where you were already winning the game. If they have creatures out and you don't, Jace just dies. Whereas if that Jace was another win-con, I'd be able to use it to block and preserve my life total, and then win later on. Jace was the fastest win condition in blue, but he was far from the best because he only did one thing.

The other problem with Jace is that unlike with other finishers (or even other planeswalkers) if you activate him once or twice and he doesn't win the game, he's essentially accomplished nothing. No card advantage, no damage to the opponent, no board impact... nothing. I choose to fill my expensive blue card slots with cards that A) help me stabilize and then win or B) guarantee value or card advantage. Jace ultimately proved to do neither.

Compare the card to pretty much any card in the 4-6cc range it could compete with in blue and ask yourself this question: "When you're losing, which card would you rather have?" The question: "Which card would you rather have when you're winning?" is pretty irrelevant.

Makes sense. I don't plan to cut him but I will keep that in mind.

Don't cut him if he's amazing for you. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I was simply offering a second opinion, and the reasoning behind why he was cut from my cube.

Haha, I am easy to convince, but not that easy. I have no intention of cutting him. Or much of anything atm.

I am pondering switching Kargan Dragonlord for Stormblood Berserker and maybe Shelldock Isle for Ancestral Vision. But that is about it.

I'm a Dragonlord fan, but I think the Berserker is the best red 2-drop. I also don't like Shelldock Isle. I'd rather play Vision in an unpowered cube.

I'd keep Dragonlord and cut Ball Lightning for the Berserker.

Totally agreed with wtwlf on Shelldock. Cutting it for Visions is fine, but I'd cut it for Academy Ruins.

Cheers,
rant

I too would rather have Academy Ruins as the add and Ball Lightning as the cut.

I was the red drafter, and I have to say, despite probably 4 packs during the course of drafting being stone blanks for me (having no red cards at all, but this was all in pack 2, pack 1 I got a playable or great card almost every pick, had like 13 playables and Manic Vandal after pack 1), the deck ended up pretty good. Obviously maindecking phyrexian revoker is not exactly where I want to be, but I was pretty happy to be playing most of the other cars.

I ended up in red because I decided to force it. I had been just doing sort of "good stuff" decks the last couple of drafts and while they were fine, I wanted to try an actual archetype and thought I would start with one of the easier to build ones. Thus, I first-picked ankh of mishra and went from there!

Round 1 went as described by flutter, so no need to really expand on it.

Round 2 was against the G/W midrange deck, and I just ran him over before he could stabilize. There were some notable events, though.

Game 1 I hit ankh of Mishra on t2 (after a t1 guide), and followed it up with a t3 sword. He managed to stick a turn 4 thrun, but I followed up with phyrexian revoker naming thrun and sword on guide, forcing him to chump. I swung for lethal next turn.

Game 2 I just ran him over with low drops.

Over all I think my deck was strong, and I drew very well which made it seem super consistent (where it was probably just pretty consistent)

Obviously maindecking phyrexian revoker is not exactly where I want to be

I'll maindeck Revoker in most every deck. Especially a beatdown one.

Quote from wtwlf123

I'll maindeck Revoker in most every deck. Especially a beatdown one.

Really? I feel like I would rather have almost any 2-drop in game 1 than a revoker that is probably at best gonna be naming a PW after 1 activation, at which point I would rather be playing something that just hits them.

I mean, I would probably almost always side it in after game 1, but having to be reactive with it 100% in game one, and not even knowing what you should be worried about, makes it seem pretty mediocre to me as a game 1 card.

Oh crap, your cube is unpowered. My bad. He shuts off moxen and fast mana in addition to all the common walkers and equipment and stuff. He's likely not as good in the early game in this cube. Carry on!

Quote from wtwlf123

Oh crap, your cube is unpowered. My bad. He shuts off moxen and fast mana in addition to all the common walkers and equipment and stuff. He's likely not as good in the early game in this cube. Carry on!

Ha, yeah, running him MD makes way more sense in a powered cube. I thought I was just totally missing something lol =P

Revoker and Pithing Needle have been great maindeck choices for us, even in an unpowered environment. Having said that, we don't play with sideboards so if you have the option it could be better on the sidelines until game 2.

I would still absolutely maindeck both of those cards all the time, even in an unpowered cube. My point was that the Revoker is better as a 2cc beater in powered cubes than he is in unpowered lists. But that wouldn't change the fact that it would make my main final 40 pretty much all the time. The only difference is that I would probably lump it in with my spells during deck construction in an unpowered cube instead of counting him as a 2cc beater like I can in my powered list. It should still absolutely make the main deck though. I don't think I've ever played against a cube deck that didn't have several targets for each of the Needle effects.

Quote from wtwlf123

I would still absolutely maindeck both of those cards all the time, even in an unpowered cube. My point was that the Revoker is better as a 2cc beater in powered cubes than he is in unpowered lists. But that wouldn't change the fact that it would make my main final 40 pretty much all the time. The only difference is that I would probably lump it in with my spells during deck construction in an unpowered cube instead of counting him as a 2cc beater like I can in my powered list. It should still absolutely make the main deck though. I don't think I've ever played against a cube deck that didn't have several targets for each of the Needle effects.

I see what you mean, thanks for the explanation.

I have been main decking Pithing Needle. It has always found a target, even when I end up using it to stop regen on Thrun or River Boa...

I certainly think I would main deck revoker in a lot of lists, but I feel like the cards that a huge game against RDW often aren't in people's MD or cost enough that you should have already killed them. Further I think in RDW there are many 2-drops I would play over the revoker. It's just my opinion that in RDW it is not a great MD, but like I said, it did impress me when it came down (stopping Thrun was pretty important) so I am certainly closer to thinking it is a MD card then I was during deck construction. Maybe I just need to play with it more in red aggro to come around.

I think there's a lot of cards that can crush RDW with activations (turning off swords and planewalkers is pretty important) that the Revoker can stop. Plus, a 2/1 for 2 is fine for a beatdown deck anyways. Especially when there's good value strapped to it.

In multicolored aggro decks it's even better because the colorless cost is nice to have.

I lied. I can't stop tinkering with the cube, which seems like a bad habit. Made the following changes when some cards arrived.

Massacre Wurm -> Kokusho, the Evening Star
Genesis Wave -> Thornling
Kird Ape -> Sarkhan Vol
Shelldock Isle -> Maze of Ith
Inkwell Leviathan -> Wasteland
Timely Reinforcements -> Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lim-Dul's Vault -> Shadowmage Infiltrator
Ball Lightning -> Stormblood Berserker
Augur of Bolas -> Ancestral Vision
Venser, the Sojourner -> Geist of Saint Traft

Few notes:
Inkwell and Shelldock were both in the colorless section. I felt this was wrong and they also felt they were the weakest cards in blue. So I replaced them with new colorless lands.

Thornling was a request by our group and Genesis Wave has just sucked for us. Seemed like even if it was not the best upgrade, still an upgrade.

Timely and Harm's Way seemed like the worst white spells. I was thinking Harm's Way was better against aggro since you can use it on their 1 drop, though I'm not sure.

Augur has also been fairly bad for us. The 1/3 body is nice but he misses a lot. I also just really want to try Ancestral Vision.

Kird Ape has not preformed great and after seeing the Burning-Tree thread and all the math, decided to try Sarkhan.

Finally, Venser was fun but the last 4 or so times he has been cast, he has not done much. Going to try Geist for tempo.

I also decided to use a 3 card testing zone for my non-draft night games just to start. The zone right now is Graveborn Muse, Cloistered Youth, and Rishadan Port. I don't know if I will keep this zone yet, but gonna try it with the roommate.

I like these changes for the most part. It makes me sad to see Kird Ape go. I think you could play both of those cards and cut Stormbind instead. We had the same issue in our cube and discussed it at length in my thread if you want to check it out. I haven't read the Emissary thread; are you planning to try it out in RG as well?

You'll really like Kokusho, we had tons of good times with that card. Looking at the list, I can say the same for all of the other cards you're adding as well. Let us know what you think of Ancestral Vision as we cut it recently and more playtest data is better!

Testing zone looks good, too. We cut Graveborn Muse a long time ago but I like the other two. I ended up cutting Cloistered Youth in order to keep Lone Missionary and Knight of Meadowgrain but we had some good discussion about it at the time.